NFT: The student loan mess

burst soon enough

are the interest rates on some of the loans. Mine was around 9% which is obscene. But I understood what I was getting into and paid it off after a LONG time.

are particularly competent stewards of their own finances, and whether it is our best interest to subsidize four or more years of "experience" as opposed to four or less years of education. But at the end of the day, we have a system that skews incentives, that makes money for everyone concerned (the banks and certainly the schools) and then leaves the kids to foot the bill under the assumption that they will have the financial means to do so.

.....

think it's a fair situation to have 18 year olds, and 22 year olds (grad school) sign on for debt that can't be discharged in bankruptcy and will stick with them for decades, regardless of whether they have an ability to pay the loan. It's ridiculous that we give bankruptcy protection to basically everyone except student loan debtors.

Personally, I think the solution is two fold. (1) Cap payments to 15% of post-tax income for all federally guaranteed loans (public and private). (2) For loans to be issued in the future, put the risk of default on the schools themselves. Right now, there's no incentive for schools to keep costs down since all of their students have easy access to federally guaranteed loans. The system is out of control. Also, it'd be nice to be able to deduct student loan interest from taxable income.

I don't know how feasible it is, but the schools and local employers (or any employers) could be able to work out a deal with students like a 401k except they'll match your minimum payment (or some % of it) each month to your student loan (instead of contributing to your 401k) as long as you agree to work a minimum # of years or something.

endowments and help pay off the loans. This whole thing is a total sham. I do feel for the kids, but who knowing spends 150K+ for a bachelors degree. It's insane.

they are getting. Someone getting a BS in Electrical Engineering (starting salary ~$64k) is going to be a lot more likely to pay off their debt then someone taking out loans to study music (starting salary $35k).


starting pay - ( New Window )

the interest WAS tax-deductible. Half-way through school, Congress and Reagan eliminated the tax deductibility. Taking out student loans was a requirement of eligibility for financial aid at my college (U Penn).

There was no opportunity to reduce the interest rate once interest rates went down and stayed down, so what started as 4% below the insane interest rates if the late 70s and 80s, ended up being a huge windfall for the banks holding my loans.

I completely paid off the variable-rate PLUS loans I took out for law school, but the gawddamn GSLs have been the monkey on my back, with interest turned to principal in the bad economic times, after I got laid off from my fabulous Wall Street firm.

The schools definitely inflated costs, including tuition, because they knew they had this fire hose of money coming in from loans. There has been zero institutional accountability, and I graduated law school with less than half the debt burden that kids are graduating with now.

system is messed up. As Metnut mentioned, there must be a risk of default somewhere. I am just not sure who should bear that burden.

give the schools some skin in the game, perhaps a 10% responsibility for guaranteed student loans. Also tying rates to grades and the degree program pursued could help encourage good decisionmaking.

You should understand that the main driver for huge increase in tuitions has been the addition of hundreds of non faculty positions on most every campus in America to the point where non faculty and faculty position are near equal in numbers.

like the idea of putting the risk on everyone involved like the schools, the banks and the student. That way, everyone thinks about it when the loan is provided. But at the same time, there will still be good accessibility to loans for those who need.

In comment 12154360 Metnut said:

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Also, it'd be nice to be able to deduct student loan interest from taxable income.

You can, up to $2500.

I like having world class facilities, services and accommodations when I hit up my alma mater.

where these young people are going to have to know exactly what they want before they go to school.

I was lucky. I paid off all my loans (in the Reagan era) because I was able to find some high paying work and I am a freak about not having debt. My son is on a full ride so we are just paying for room and board. He will leave his educational experience with a clean slate,

But so many of his HS classmates are going to schools around the country and they are racking up debt like they were buying a home. I feel for those kids. Because when they graduate, they better be locked and loaded. That's a scary thought...to be 22 and owe $200,000. That is just not sustainable

In comment 12154438 BillT said:

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You should understand that the main driver for huge increase in tuitions has been the addition of hundreds of non faculty positions on most every campus in America to the point where non faculty and faculty position are near equal in numbers.

What is the reason for this trend?

then racking up debt to figure it out while in college probably isn't the best idea. Take a break for a couple years and get some internships in fields you might be interested in. Go to a college that you can afford sans loans or a community college.

each university is trying to create the "optimal" life/college experience. Technology like you wouldn't believe. Dorms that are better than apartments. Extensive eating arrangements. Campus cultural life. Course diversity. Funding sports. It's impressive but it costs money.

if there were some sort of crisis where the masses couldn't repay their loans, the lenders would get some sort of federal bailout and the people who couldn't repay their current loan would get refinanced into some sort of super long term low interest loan.

for decades. Do Colleges and Universities exist for the benefit of students or for the faculty and administration to have jobs?

having worked around it for the past 10 years. There are many bad apples in the bunch with a few excellent exceptions. The market took a particular hit when a school called "Decker College" started by the ex-governor of Massachusetts William Weld (interesting that MA is now suing Corinthian, right?) and his cronies were essentially "selling loans" in places like bus stations. They were tapping into Federal Title IV funding with no ability to train or educate students in their given fields.

In essence, they set out to be a diploma factory - but what they became was much, much worse. They preyed upon the poor, disenfranchised citizens who felt that "going to college" would change their lives. What they ended up with was no diploma, no training, and tens of thousands of dollars of debt which was eventually bad debted. Decker ended up defaulting on $20 Million from my company.

So flash forward to the last few years and the government has made an effort to implement Gainful Employment Legislation. Basically, a checks and balances system designed to ensure that students are being employed in their field of study after graduation and that their income-to-debt ratio is in line with federal guidelines. In other words, the governement created GEL to decrease defaults on payments by students.

I'm extemely leery doing business with some of these "colleges" and after a decade of experience i'm finally able to differentiate the schools that are keenly interested in training and education and others whose sole purpose is to turn a profit at all costs.

It's a shady, ugly deal - but what choice do many people have - particularly inner-city or rural folks who are working full time during the day and needing to go to school at night. Promises of employment, placement rates, etc are all issues that Admissions folks at these schools talk about - sometimes illegally.

i took out loans for a private top 50 school, around 80,000 and in 3 1/2 years it has inflated to 112,000. It just isn't sustainable. They want almost a $1000 in interest a month which is ridiculous. I understand I took out the loan but as a 17 year old kid I had no grasp of the financial impact it would have on me. It is the interest that is the real killer, if it was just a set amount with a 10 or 20 percent fee on top it would be fine, but with the 8.6% interest it is constant pressure and you make no lee way towards the principal. I really hope the government does something to fix this mess, if they can bail out banks they should be able to bail out 17 year old kids who didn't know what they were getting in to.

opportunity to attend college is a powerful, and important, social tool.

Unfortunately, as they are marginal, on average they are likelier to be underwater on their loans, leading to a significant risk of default.

One option is to provide low-cost, state-financed schools that cater mainly to these students, and less so to students outside the area.

A number of the lesser ranked state schools across the country have changed to this mission, which is helping to provide the low-cost educational experience.

When my daughter was looking at colleges in 2007, every campus we went to was in the midst of a dormitory building boom. Each new room brings in $40K per year in tuition, multiplied by 2 to 4 students per room -- you can see why there was such a frenzy to increase enrollment.

Then there's this myth about Financial Aid. The family has to be living in a box under an overpass to qualify for any real Aid. The Interest Rates on the unsubsidized student loans is up there in Shylock territory. You could get better terms from Vinny Boombatz on the street corner.

I thank the Good Lord that I was able to pay for her 4 years without her signing her life away.

sense to me. It gives "marginal" students a chance to see if a 4 year school is in their best interests. Having a free Associates Degree has to cost us less than a kid that shouldn't be in college taking out 50k in loans before he/she realizes it's not for them and we get stuck with their debt when they invariably default

lost in all of this is the myth that every kid's goal should be to go to college. College ends up being the end game.

Meanwhile, 65% of the jobs in this country require a 2-year degree or advanced apprenticeship-type training.

20% of the jobs available require a 4-year degree. That number has not changed since 1950.

If you've had the chance to read the Harvard paper "Pathways to Prosperity" - i suggest you do so. We are doing our young people a huge disservice by pushing postsecondary education at all costs.

What ends up happening is you have 39% of graduating college students in the "mal-employed" sector - meaning they are working outside their field of study and most likely still living at home with their parents because they cannot afford the alternative. On top of that, once they do enter the workplace, they start at a lower wage scale making it more difficult to buy property, get married, etc - i.e. the things that contribute to one's net worth, status as a tax payer and contributor to our ecomomy.

These days kids (bolstered by their parents and ill-imformed guidance counselors who are judged by college placement rates) don't want to work with their hands - it's somehow beneath them. Meanwhile, i know pipe welders making $150K a year, superintendents making $100K (with a company truck) and crane operators earning up to $125/hour!

Just now we're starting to hear about "efficacy" - bullshit. It's always been there, but educational institutions refused to recognize it until they were called out.

We as a society (and not to get overly political - but the government too) focus on advanced education solely for it's own sake rather than the entrepreneurial spirit that once made this country great.

Now - all that said - you've got some great things happening like in Tennesse where they're instituting the "Tennessee Promise" - offering free tuition to any of the two-year or techincal colleges in the Tennessee Colleges of Applied Technology network for any graduating HS senior starting this year. We need more initiatives like this.

In comment 12154460 WhoCares said:

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In comment 12154438 BillT said: Quote: You should understand that the main driver for huge increase in tuitions has been the addition of hundreds of non faculty positions on most every campus in America to the point where non faculty and faculty position are near equal in numbers. What is the reason for this trend?

It's a terrible problem. Essentially there is more and more "administration" every year. I'd also add that there are a lot of professors who barely teach. One class a semester, and often not even that.

The problem is oversight. There is a lot of inmate-running-the-asylum going on and preaching about academic freedom. So long as the schools are solvent (too high tuitions from families that dont know better and are told college = success) and are growing their endowments (donations from alums who do not evaluate the performance of the school beyond academic reputation and athletics), there is nothing to check the out of control spending and misallocation of funds. Trustees are an ineffective check -- most of them just like the prestige of being a college/univ. trustee.

that gives a world class education to a kid from India or China and we kick them out of the country after an 18 month OPT visa to take that world class education back to their native countries and the US gets 0 benefit and home country gets 100 percent benefit

In comment 12154522 Headhunter said:

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that gives a world class education to a kid from India or China and we kick them out of the country after an 18 month OPT visa to take that world class education back to their native countries and the US gets 0 benefit and home country gets 100 percent benefit

You're just upset because many clients won't pay for their H1B visas!

The number of H-1b's are so out of whack with the demand

isn't it reasonable to expect them to do their homework?

I agree that some of the inner workings of the loan system should be regulated to insure that 1 dollar of debt doesn't turn into 100 dollars of debt. But you should know before you sign on the dotted line how much you're going to owe, and how much your profession is realistically going to make, and how likely the school you're going to is going to gain you entry into that profession. Going to college is a serious event. it's not too much to ask the student to do his homework. If he doesn't, why should he get a bail out?

Way back in the day, before they changed the bankruptcy laws, there were a lot of students willingly defaulting and declaring bankruptcy just to get rid of the debt. There should be some middle ground.

Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to get an education without getting saddled with unwieldy debt for half your life. It just isn't as much fun as going away to party, and not work for 4 years.

In comment 12154525 Headhunter said:

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The number of H-1b's are so out of whack with the demand

When i was a headhunter back during the .com boom the number of Java programmers was way down and it seemed like the only ones available needed sponsorship. If we could find a citizen with server-side programming skills it was like hitting the jackpot. Instant offers, bidding wars, and many times no interview needed. Crazy times.

Java, web, mobile, full stack, front end developer and I will place him quicker than it took me to type this. They are like hen's teeth

In comment 12154506 B in ALB said:

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lost in all of this is the myth that every kid's goal should be to go to college. College ends up being the end game. Meanwhile, 65% of the jobs in this country require a 2-year degree or advanced apprenticeship-type training. 20% of the jobs available require a 4-year degree. That number has not changed since 1950. If you've had the chance to read the Harvard paper "Pathways to Prosperity" - i suggest you do so. We are doing our young people a huge disservice by pushing postsecondary education at all costs. What ends up happening is you have 39% of graduating college students in the "mal-employed" sector - meaning they are working outside their field of study and most likely still living at home with their parents because they cannot afford the alternative. On top of that, once they do enter the workplace, they start at a lower wage scale making it more difficult to buy property, get married, etc - i.e. the things that contribute to one's net worth, status as a tax payer and contributor to our ecomomy. These days kids (bolstered by their parents and ill-imformed guidance counselors who are judged by college placement rates) don't want to work with their hands - it's somehow beneath them. Meanwhile, i know pipe welders making $150K a year, superintendents making $100K (with a company truck) and crane operators earning up to $125/hour! Just now we're starting to hear about "efficacy" - bullshit. It's always been there, but educational institutions refused to recognize it until they were called out. We as a society (and not to get overly political - but the government too) focus on advanced education solely for it's own sake rather than the entrepreneurial spirit that once made this country great. Now - all that said - you've got some great things happening like in Tennesse where they're instituting the "Tennessee Promise" - offering free tuition to any of the two-year or techincal colleges in the Tennessee Colleges of Applied Technology network for any graduating HS senior starting this year. We need more initiatives like this.

We've also done a major disservice to young people by attaching such a negative connotation to the GED. What an advantageous tool we should use be using for kids ready to move onto whatever their interests may be.

Great post all around and couldn't agree more B

the two most important things to securing a future if you want to work.

In comment 12154443 Gman11 said:

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In comment 12154360 Metnut said: Quote: Also, it'd be nice to be able to deduct student loan interest from taxable income. You can, up to $2500.

If you gross over 75k (which I did, barely), you lose that ability, FYI

In comment 12154417 schnitzie said:

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the interest WAS tax-deductible. Half-way through school, Congress and Reagan eliminated the tax deductibility. Taking out student loans was a requirement of eligibility for financial aid at my college (U Penn). There was no opportunity to reduce the interest rate once interest rates went down and stayed down, so what started as 4% below the insane interest rates if the late 70s and 80s, ended up being a huge windfall for the banks holding my loans. I completely paid off the variable-rate PLUS loans I took out for law school, but the gawddamn GSLs have been the monkey on my back, with interest turned to principal in the bad economic times, after I got laid off from my fabulous Wall Street firm. The schools definitely inflated costs, including tuition, because they knew they had this fire hose of money coming in from loans. There has been zero institutional accountability, and I graduated law school with less than half the debt burden that kids are graduating with now.

1. The rules regarding student loan debt were changed for tax years beginning after 1986. At the same time the tax rates were significantly reduced. That was the trade off. And actually, for folks in the 25-50k income bracket rates are probably still lower even with an inflation adjustment.

2. Digging into endowments would only work for 70-100 colleges/universities. And, in fact, Chuck Grassley circa 2005 held hearings with respect to extending the private foundation rules about use of endowments (minimum of 5% of the endowment calculated each year must be spent on operations or else a penalty tax is assessed) to schools. The Ivies, Stanford and Duke suddenly found religion and really jacked up financial aid in order to avoid the statutory requirement. Then 2008 hit, endowments got clobbered and the issue was tabled. It might be worth reviving at this point.

There should be a certain amount of debit forgiveness. I'm of the opinion that if students maintain grades, States should waive the tuition of state colleges.

Students that choose private schools, should be able to offset some of that at the rate their school piers receive.

We all should want the USA to excel at all professions and aim high- be second to none. I don't mind taxing the very wealthy to fund this either. This country's laws helped them achieve their wealth, there's nothing wrong with giving back so the system gets better and better.

As a side note- California does or did allow residents (2 year proof of residency) free tuition to state schools there.

and know how to achieve it. They can use the college experience successfully as a stepping stone. They find careers right away. It's irritating to hear people talk about java programmers etc because not every young person is cut out to be that way.

The real issue is with the middle ground students, whose parents desperately want their kids to be college educated, because they believe it's the only way to carve out a life in America. They are the kids who get saddled with huge debt.

Its the American Dream. Or at least it used to be. For a lot of families it means some incredible sacrifice just so their kid could have something they didn't have.

People I work with went to Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Wisconsin, Brown, etc, etc. Education is what you make of it for the most part. With the exception of maybe 15-20 elite educational colleges I'm not sure why people pay so much to go to these "name" colleges.

Did.

The kids need to have some skin in the game. Make it an interest free loan. Community college does not cost a lot to begin with so it is not like they will be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars to pay off.

Too many kids today just do not take school seriously. If they are on the hook for some of this debt (even interest free), then they may actually study.

The tax payers would end up funding tuition for kids that do not even show up for class.

This is the land of the free...not the land where things are free.

no kid should have more than 100k in loans. That's insane.
The interest rates are ridiculous as well. These need to have a cap as well. Finance institutions are making all the money and then they cry when kids default and the government will end up paying them off. Stupid.

In comment 12154356 Dunedin81 said:

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are particularly competent stewards of their own finances, and whether it is our best interest to subsidize four or more years of "experience" as opposed to four or less years of education. But at the end of the day, we have a system that skews incentives, that makes money for everyone concerned (the banks and certainly the schools) and then leaves the kids to foot the bill under the assumption that they will have the financial means to do so.

^^This^^

And just let me add, it pisses me off, for whatever the hell that is worth (not much)

In comment 12154392 buford said:

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endowments and help pay off the loans. This whole thing is a total sham. I do feel for the kids, but who knowing spends 150K+ for a bachelors degree. It's insane.

^^This too^^

In comment 12154581 EricJ said:

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The kids need to have some skin in the game. Make it an interest free loan. Community college does not cost a lot to begin with so it is not like they will be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars to pay off. Too many kids today just do not take school seriously. If they are on the hook for some of this debt (even interest free), then they may actually study. The tax payers would end up funding tuition for kids that do not even show up for class. This is the land of the free...not the land where things are free.

You're making a very dangerous - and frankly ignorant - assumption that kids who otherwise may not see the possibility of going to college or a technical school would somehow go through the process of taking advantage of programs like Tennessee Promise only to squander the opportunity.

You generalize an entire constituency of student that is now given a chance to shine.

It's not just about the colleges. It's about employers coming in and letting both students and administrators know EXACTLY what they are looking for and EXACTLY what graduating/certified students can hope to earn and accomplish.

This is where programs like TP are ahead of the curve - they're engaging their enrollment base (HS students), while securing placement opportunities by including industry/employers. Both of those work hand-in-hand to RETAIN the student in the program. It's the proverbial "light at the end of the tunnel."

This is something that higher education and the traditional environments have completely missed the boat on and not bothered to implement.

In comment 12154595 B in ALB said:

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In comment 12154581 EricJ said: Quote: The kids need to have some skin in the game. Make it an interest free loan. Community college does not cost a lot to begin with so it is not like they will be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars to pay off. Too many kids today just do not take school seriously. If they are on the hook for some of this debt (even interest free), then they may actually study. The tax payers would end up funding tuition for kids that do not even show up for class. This is the land of the free...not the land where things are free. You're making a very dangerous - and frankly ignorant - assumption that kids who otherwise may not see the possibility of going to college or a technical school would somehow go through the process of taking advantage of programs like Tennessee Promise only to squander the opportunity. You generalize an entire constituency of student that is now given a chance to shine. It's not just about the colleges. It's about employers coming in and letting both students and administrators know EXACTLY what they are looking for and EXACTLY what graduating/certified students can hope to earn and accomplish. This is where programs like TP are ahead of the curve - they're engaging their enrollment base (HS students), while securing placement opportunities by including industry/employers. Both of those work hand-in-hand to RETAIN the student in the program. It's the proverbial "light at the end of the tunnel." This is something that higher education and the traditional environments have completely missed the boat on and not bothered to implement.

Keep in mind that my comments were SOLELY in response to the idea of providing free tuition for COMMUNITY COLLEGE where the tuition is extremely low. So, we are talking about just a couple/few thousand total. Why should it be absolutely free? Why cant we just provide the financing for free?

Yes, I was making a general statement and I think most people can read what I wrote and understand that I do not think that ALL kids would squander this opportunity if provided for free. However, a significant number would. Plus, we should not have to fund it all with tax payer dollars.

In general, I also agree with most of the statements above regarding student loans in general. It is a scam. Rates are far too high. Tuition itself is too high and quite honestly not worth it. Go to a state school and you will have the same opportunity as the kids who went to an expensive school out of state. Meanwhile, something needs to be done about the costs.

Even the book costs are a scam. No way a book should cost over $100

has plenty of checks and balances - basically steps - to securing the tuition. This includes meetings with the college, the Promise application, the school application, FAFSA filing, and Community Service.

These programs are last-dollar initiatives meant to provide tuition after Pell, HOPE and TSAA are exhausted.

For a student to go thru all of that only to drop out would be a complete shame. So your "significant number" statement is a bit absurd.

I found this website which lists the tuition in various European countries.
Link - ( New Window )

Well here's a big fuck you from all the kids that bust their asses trying their damnedest.You sound like an old fool who says back in my day kids studied not like these slackers today. You know what ace? Back in your day there was the same amount of jerkoffs as there are today and just as many hard working students today as in your day.

rates to other countries. If you want to do that, then you should factor in the implicitly higher marginal tax rates you will pay, as well as the lower pay-scales, coupled with higher youth unemployment rates for recent college grads because of a highly segmented labor market...

In comment 12154617 Headhunter said:

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Well here's a big fuck you from all the kids that bust their asses trying their damnedest.You sound like an old fool who says back in my day kids studied not like these slackers today. You know what ace? Back in your day there was the same amount of jerkoffs as there are today and just as many hard working students today as in your day.

You said it a lot nicer than i did.

In comment 12154620 B in ALB said:

Quote:

In comment 12154617 Headhunter said: Quote: Well here's a big fuck you from all the kids that bust their asses trying their damnedest.You sound like an old fool who says back in my day kids studied not like these slackers today. You know what ace? Back in your day there was the same amount of jerkoffs as there are today and just as many hard working students today as in your day. You said it a lot nicer than i did.

this

community college is free or steeply discounted for many students. Not to say that states can't or shouldn't provide this, it's a strong initiative that under the right circumstances could work and work well. Just to say that students don't necessarily understand how inexpensive community college can be.

As for the rise of college costs. there are a lot of factors at work. The administrative costs have mushroomed. Some of that is because administrative salaries have mushroomed (it's a seven-figure job at the top of many large universities), some of it is because the positions have mushroomed. And that again is a multifaceted issue. The diversity/multicultural emphasis has spawned administrative apparatuses at just about every school of consequence. Compliance with all manner of federal regulation - labor, environmental, reporting, etc - has also necessitated the creation of numerous positions at just about every school.

And beyond that you have the aforementioned emphases on things that should be peripheral to education, like the quest for insane dorms and gyms and other facilities. A lot of them aren't constructed with tuition dollars but they consume some or all of donor dollars that could fund recurrent financial aid.

college does not = jobs. Just means you have a shot at a higher paying job which is a good thing. Unfortunately, too many graduates are unable to cash in on their education.

In comment 12154438 BillT said:

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You should understand that the main driver for huge increase in tuitions has been the addition of hundreds of non faculty positions on most every campus in America to the point where non faculty and faculty position are near equal in numbers.

Yep. That is what my BIL who is the chair of a department at NIU said.

In comment 12154639 EricJ said:

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college does not = jobs. Just means you have a shot at a higher paying job which is a good thing. Unfortunately, too many graduates are unable to cash in on their education.

Again, if you focus on 65% of the available jobs in this country (over three times as many as those requiring a four-year degree)that require a two-year degree or advanced training, finding a lucrative and long lasting CAREER, is well within reach.

Again, you make these generalizations with absolutely no basis in fact while the people who have made careers in these areas of focus contribute to try to educate you.

In comment 12154617 Headhunter said:

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Well here's a big fuck you from all the kids that bust their asses trying their damnedest.You sound like an old fool who says back in my day kids studied not like these slackers today. You know what ace? Back in your day there was the same amount of jerkoffs as there are today and just as many hard working students today as in your day.

Right here is what is wrong with this place (BBI). Two people cannot have a difference of opinion as to whether to provide free college tuition (paid for with tax dollars) without one of those individuals once again doing his best to win the next BBI asshole of the year award. The thing is that I fully expected a reaction like that out of you because it has become the norm.

it's last-dollar and a driver of making better contributors to the overall economy.

Your view of this issue is unbelievably short-sighted and, with respect, extremely ignorant.

My only experience are the kids I know from my son growing up. On balance, I found them to be smarter and more dedicated than my generation. God knows they are exposed to more of the world because the technology has brought it closer to them.

I really feel for these kids. I do. There are such great demands on them before they turn 25.

one of the kids I went to high school with became chancellor of Syracuse University. So it's not universal but I do believe today's young people are sharper

In comment 12154669 Bake54 said:

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one of the kids I went to high school with became chancellor of Syracuse University. So it's not universal but I do believe today's young people are sharper

Ol Kent? Nice.

back in the 70's you could graduate with a BA in History from a mediocre school and actually get a real job. Today you have to be the best of the best and a BA in Art Appreciation is going to get you a shitload of debt and a couch in your mom's basement to sleep on. You better be at the top of your class with a meaningful degree or you will end up a Headhunter

Definitely agree with you there.

And B..side note about Kent..he and his brother both got perfect scores on their SATs. We had another classmate who was the youngest person ever to publish an article in the National Review. Today, he is an accomplished author of historical books, Richard Brookhiser. So I'm not sure Kent was even the smartest guy in the high school.

From playing sports in school to applying to colleges. Hell, kids have to actually try out to make the Cross Country Team! Pretty much every college my son applied to had a record number of applicants this year.

We are struggling with whether he should go to a good college where he received good $ to attend or whether he should attend one of the top schools where he will need to borrow a good chunk of money. It's a tough decision.

In comment 12154699 Bake54 said:

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Definitely agree with you there. And B..side note about Kent..he and his brother both got perfect scores on their SATs. We had another classmate who was the youngest person ever to publish an article in the National Review. Today, he is an accomplished author of historical books, Richard Brookhiser. So I'm not sure Kent was even the smartest guy in the high school.

What HS if you don't mind?

was my hometown HS. Kent graduated from there as well. He probably wouldn't get me tickets to the Duke game anyways.

I apologize to Ned for millering his thread. It's a great topic and one that I am passionate about. These kids deserve better from us. I can't believe we are sticking the youth of America...our future..with this mess.

Public Loan Forgiveness don't go far enough and why should someone have to also give 10 years of their life to get forgiveness there should be some sort of problem where you do work in your chosen profession for those that can't afford it and you deduct it from your principal. The Government would have to spend on it anyways so instead of reaching into it's pocket it can just forgive the person doing their job for them. Especially for professions like lawyer's where there is a crashed market and a generation of young professionals that were lied to.

Bankruptcy should also be back on the table again. It's one thing when it's 5 grand in the 70s. Now it's 100, 150, 200 + grand and growing PER STUDENT. And at 8.5% interest. Insanity. We need to do better. Put your money where your mouth is politician's who espouse how important education is.

In comment 12154639 EricJ said:

Quote:

college does not = jobs. Just means you have a shot at a higher paying job which is a good thing. Unfortunately, too many graduates are unable to cash in on their education.

I think BinALB made a great point about employers working hand in hand with the colleges/trade schools. Often colleges are not teaching exactly what is needed to learn/experience a particular job.

Having employers make requests and seeing to it they hire the students that completed the suggested training is the way to go. I'm not suggesting you do away with standard colleges courses, just tailor the major to what the employers will need in the near future by taking input from...those employers.

In comment 12154748 mrvax said:

Quote:

In comment 12154639 EricJ said: Quote: college does not = jobs. Just means you have a shot at a higher paying job which is a good thing. Unfortunately, too many graduates are unable to cash in on their education. I think BinALB made a great point about employers working hand in hand with the colleges/trade schools. Often colleges are not teaching exactly what is needed to learn/experience a particular job. Having employers make requests and seeing to it they hire the students that completed the suggested training is the way to go. I'm not suggesting you do away with standard colleges courses, just tailor the major to what the employers will need in the near future by taking input from...those employers.

Whenever I have one of my industry partners speak at a school I ask them to wash their truck and hook up their boat or trail their bikes before driving to the school.

It may sound crazy but kids see that a possible employer is loving life and they respond very positively.

It's truly a "holy shit" moment for the kids.

Strategically, I make this happen either on the on-site school lab area or if the weather is never we all meet outside.

It shows tangible evidence of what is possible.

we have a significant percentage of high schoolers who can't be bothered to graduate, even though society has deemed that this is a level we should guarantee them.

Maybe things are different today, but 30 years ago, it was plain as day the students who had skin in the game. Yes, it's painting with a broad brush, and lots (maybe even the majority) who were being given a free ride by parents studied hard and made the most of their opportunities. But I saw way too many free riders who thought it was a joke, that this was an opportunity to have a good time, school came second, Daddy will pay for additional semesters if necessary. pay part or all of the ride mostly studied hard as hell, because they knew additional semesters came on their own dime.

I'm all in favor of extending education opportunities, but it needs to have a way to control abuses. And personally, the higher the level of opportunity we afford our youth, the lower the level of safety net we allow them if they decide not to avail themselves of it. For starters, no welfare if you can't bother to graduate high school. My single biggest expense in life is school tax, and there are a significant number of doofusses who think it's ok to drop out and then suck off the taxpayer when they find they can't make it in life.

In comment 12154651 B in ALB said:

Quote:

it's last-dollar and a driver of making better contributors to the overall economy. Your view of this issue is unbelievably short-sighted and, with respect, extremely ignorant.

No, I get it. Having more educated individuals is a good thing. More people with a college degree (even if it is associates) is a good thing and it enables them to get better jobs. The only area where I disagree is who should fund it. I think if it went to vote, you would find that in general the population would be split on the idea of making it tax payer funded.

In comment 12154691 Headhunter said:

Quote:

back in the 70's you could graduate with a BA in History from a mediocre school and actually get a real job. Today you have to be the best of the best and a BA in Art Appreciation is going to get you a shitload of debt and a couch in your mom's basement to sleep on. You better be at the top of your class with a meaningful degree or you will end up a Headhunter

I agree with your point to some extent. As someone who has hired quite a few college grads, it is less about WHERE you went to school and virtually never about your grades in school. It comes down to job experience. What have you done? Just went to a good school? who cares? Can you do the job? That is what will make one student more attractive to employers vs another. There are schools that have a great co-op program. You get real work experience in your industry before graduating so you have more than just a degree. It also allows you an opportunity to truly experience what working in that industry may be like so that you have an opportunity to find out that it may not be for you.

In comment 12154783 EricJ said:

Quote:

In comment 12154651 B in ALB said: Quote: it's last-dollar and a driver of making better contributors to the overall economy. Your view of this issue is unbelievably short-sighted and, with respect, extremely ignorant. No, I get it. Having more educated individuals is a good thing. More people with a college degree (even if it is associates) is a good thing and it enables them to get better jobs. The only area where I disagree is who should fund it. I think if it went to vote, you would find that in general the population would be split on the idea of making it tax payer funded.

I see that as penny wise, pound foolish, Eric.

"Even if it is associates" - see? This is the exact nonsense that I'm talking about. 65% of the jobs in this country require just that. Yet it's people like you who perpetuate the thought that a two-year degree is somehow automatically not worthy of the conversation. It's despicable.

Yet, I guarantee you - the kid with skills and a degree and a certification created by industry and relationships cultivated with employers through those two years enters the workforce quicker, with a clear purpose and past on mind, and with a more upward trajectory than the kid with a non-specialized degree who just incurred over a $100k in debt.

We need to change the thinking in this country.

Not to mention the altruism that should be inherent in funding education - that is too often forgotten in the lottery ticket haze created by higher education.

wanna shoot me an email? Wanna bounce some ideas off you and I don't wanna miller up the thread.

lylesilverman@gmail.com

In comment 12154886 GMenLTS said:

Quote:

wanna shoot me an email? Wanna bounce some ideas off you and I don't wanna miller up the thread. lylesilverman@gmail.com

Sent.

B in Albany agree bais against associate degrees really needs to change. Community schools partnering with industry is a great way for our youth to acquire the skill set needed for good paying & satisfying career. I've seen to many kids go to a 4 year school only because it was expected. Besides the debt, they're worst off because they still don't have marketable skills.

We need to require all educational institutions to provide better information so students can make better choices. Private vs state, it really depends on what your child wishes to do, and the school's reputation in that area. Will additional expense payoff. Compare % of students that receive grants and average amount awarded. You may be surprised. My son did go to one of those pricey liberal art schools but his student loans ended up being less than many who attended state.

Headhunter your right it's not the 70s anymore. The degree matters and often the school.

In comment 12154581 EricJ said:

Quote:

The kids need to have some skin in the game. Make it an interest free loan. Community college does not cost a lot to begin with so it is not like they will be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars to pay off. Too many kids today just do not take school seriously. If they are on the hook for some of this debt (even interest free), then they may actually study. The tax payers would end up funding tuition for kids that do not even show up for class. This is the land of the free...not the land where things are free.

I agree with your post, Eric. The second time around having all the skin in the game, I realized what a great asset community colleges are. I was able to take 6 or 7 hard science pre requisite classes for a fraction of the cost that they would have cost at even a state school. I also took advantage of my employer's tuition reimbursement. Granted, as I said, this was after I had a BA fully funded, had the benefit of hindsight and was 23 years old.

Your right community colleges are a great resource and as a public policy we should be investing in them more. However, for high school grads from low income households, the tuition still maybe be a difficult hurtle. It's relative. They also may not be able to gain employment where there's a tuition reimbursement program.

Lastly sorry Eric, I disagree. As a parent and employer, I've found the kids today far more mature and focused than my generation.

are a disgrace

some of them are truly evil. prey on the poor and also the military. and protected by politicians

to change. I agree with bits and pieces of most people's posts.

Personally, I would like to see a culture change with more emphasis on utility of the degree for future jobs. That is how I would approach HS as well, where I wish we would emphasize going to college less for many or most students, in favor of apprenticeships, internships, practical studies. I would like to see a business culture where most professions seriously re-evaluate themselves and determine in their hiring practices what specific skills are needed to succeed and whether college (or a 4 year degree) is necessary. I would also like to see employers look beyond whether a degree itself is all you need and evaluate the curriculum taken by the prospective employee. How we "see" a college degree, in the context of employment needs to be changed at a cultural level, IMO. Just to add a gratuitous political comment here, IMO the Washington Post and whoever the NYT columnist was were absolutely asinine in their hit pieces to insinuate that two more courses in gym or basket-weaving to gain a degree dictates whether Scott Walker is fit to be President. That's mind boggling to me.

I would like to see extensive curricular changes or at least a change in culture on how we view curricula. IMO, if your degree ends in "Studies", then I would throw that degree away and eliminate that major. IN fact, I would likely go through any college handbook and eliminate 75% of the offered majors. Most are added to sop faculty egos, improve their tenure chances, allow them to teach the niche without having to broaden their own education in their own field and serve no practical future importance.

Other changes I would make would be to encourage reduction of the number of colleges, consolidate colleges, share faculty, etc. I would also severely restrict non-classroom activities and bring the focus more on education. That would include inside the dormitories. I wish the culture would change to deemphasize whatever euphemisms are used for non-educational, non-responsiblity things..."learning about life", "finding yourself", "exploring adulthood" etc. In that vein, I would generally encourage, and for people going on loans or scholarship maybe even require a minimal (maybe 2 years?) spacing between HS and college. Gain experience, mature, build some funds to provide a base for your loan, etc.

And, definitively, the schools need to change. Tuition increases should not out-pace inflation. Tenure rules and sabbatical should be tightened so that teachers without a strong, definable, and revenue-producing research component are required to increase their teaching burden so that overall faculty numbers are held in check. I would also like the Feds to seriously evaluate and strongly scrutinize indirect costs to keep infrastructure changes at a level of what's necessary as opposed to "well we have the money and can always raise tuition so lets do this..."

making public university free?

basically if you added all the money the fed already spends on college education in loans , grants etc
and instead just use that money to fund students to go public university for free





Exactly How Much Would It Cost to Make Public Colleges Tuition-Free? (An Update.) - ( New Window )

college that they don't need and help them get cheap gov't loans to do it.

In comment 12154783 EricJ said:

Quote:

In comment 12154651 B in ALB said: Quote: it's last-dollar and a driver of making better contributors to the overall economy. Your view of this issue is unbelievably short-sighted and, with respect, extremely ignorant. No, I get it. Having more educated individuals is a good thing. More people with a college degree (even if it is associates) is a good thing and it enables them to get better jobs. The only area where I disagree is who should fund it. I think if it went to vote, you would find that in general the population would be split on the idea of making it tax payer funded.

And there's a part where you're not 'getting it'.

There are right around 160 folks where I work that have HS degree or equivalent that make $90K+/year. Another 20 that have a skilled trade that make $150K or more a year. Most of the skilled guys actually make more than the management staff, including the ME's.

The idea that a degree gives you the chance at a "higher paying job" just is not the case for the most part. Sure, it's better than retail (although I know more than a few folks that spent a whole lot on a degree that ended up working retail) for the most part- but it depends on the type of degree, and the job market.

I've been saying for years, and still believe that most kids should be encouraged to go to technical school rather than college. They'll make more money, be less in debt, and actually contribute something useful.

In comment 12155174 Bill L said:

Quote:

to change. I agree with bits and pieces of most people's posts. Personally, I would like to see a culture change with more emphasis on utility of the degree for future jobs. That is how I would approach HS as well, where I wish we would emphasize going to college less for many or most students, in favor of apprenticeships, internships, practical studies. I would like to see a business culture where most professions seriously re-evaluate themselves and determine in their hiring practices what specific skills are needed to succeed and whether college (or a 4 year degree) is necessary. I would also like to see employers look beyond whether a degree itself is all you need and evaluate the curriculum taken by the prospective employee. How we "see" a college degree, in the context of employment needs to be changed at a cultural level, IMO. Just to add a gratuitous political comment here, IMO the Washington Post and whoever the NYT columnist was were absolutely asinine in their hit pieces to insinuate that two more courses in gym or basket-weaving to gain a degree dictates whether Scott Walker is fit to be President. That's mind boggling to me. I would like to see extensive curricular changes or at least a change in culture on how we view curricula. IMO, if your degree ends in "Studies", then I would throw that degree away and eliminate that major. IN fact, I would likely go through any college handbook and eliminate 75% of the offered majors. Most are added to sop faculty egos, improve their tenure chances, allow them to teach the niche without having to broaden their own education in their own field and serve no practical future importance. Other changes I would make would be to encourage reduction of the number of colleges, consolidate colleges, share faculty, etc. I would also severely restrict non-classroom activities and bring the focus more on education. That would include inside the dormitories. I wish the culture would change to deemphasize whatever euphemisms are used for non-educational, non-responsiblity things..."learning about life", "finding yourself", "exploring adulthood" etc. In that vein, I would generally encourage, and for people going on loans or scholarship maybe even require a minimal (maybe 2 years?) spacing between HS and college. Gain experience, mature, build some funds to provide a base for your loan, etc. And, definitively, the schools need to change. Tuition increases should not out-pace inflation. Tenure rules and sabbatical should be tightened so that teachers without a strong, definable, and revenue-producing research component are required to increase their teaching burden so that overall faculty numbers are held in check. I would also like the Feds to seriously evaluate and strongly scrutinize indirect costs to keep infrastructure changes at a level of what's necessary as opposed to "well we have the money and can always raise tuition so lets do this..."

Great post, Bill. I agree 110% on putting an end to degrees that end in 'studies.' There are so many liberal arts degrees that are essentially useless.

In comment 12155197 Cam in MO said:

Quote:

In comment 12154783 EricJ said: Quote: In comment 12154651 B in ALB said: Quote: it's last-dollar and a driver of making better contributors to the overall economy. Your view of this issue is unbelievably short-sighted and, with respect, extremely ignorant. No, I get it. Having more educated individuals is a good thing. More people with a college degree (even if it is associates) is a good thing and it enables them to get better jobs. The only area where I disagree is who should fund it. I think if it went to vote, you would find that in general the population would be split on the idea of making it tax payer funded. And there's a part where you're not 'getting it'. There are right around 160 folks where I work that have HS degree or equivalent that make $90K+/year. Another 20 that have a skilled trade that make $150K or more a year. Most of the skilled guys actually make more than the management staff, including the ME's. The idea that a degree gives you the chance at a "higher paying job" just is not the case for the most part. Sure, it's better than retail (although I know more than a few folks that spent a whole lot on a degree that ended up working retail) for the most part- but it depends on the type of degree, and the job market. I've been saying for years, and still believe that most kids should be encouraged to go to technical school rather than college. They'll make more money, be less in debt, and actually contribute something useful.

I <3 Cam.

1. I have a fundamental problem with people or government using student loans as a revenue source. Slash the interest rates down substantially. We're trying to educate kids, not line someone's pockets.

2. Debt forgiveness is a joke. I'm fortunate that my student loans are all paid off. But before they were, I applied for debt forgiveness because I've worked for a certain amount of years in a Title I school. I was denied, because I was paying off two loans, and I couldn't get the first loan forgiven because I had the second loan, and I couldn't get the second loan forgiven because I had the first loan. It's all smoke and mirrors.

Cam, I think, works in the iron/steel industry. enticing people to move molten ladles of iron requires some dollar incentive. I'm not in an area that has such conditions. if you don't have a job skill, you're going to work at the dollar mart for minimum wage, and Guv Coumo is going to be advocating a wage increase for you because he's doing everything to look good as a presidential candidate, er, he says you can't make a go of it on minimum wage.

Where society has gone wrong, as many people, including Cam, have said is that college isn't the only place you can gain a job skill. the colleges are going to keep on advertising that college is necessary. What society needs is to realistically promote the idea that college isn't necessary, but job skills are. the 'for profit' institutions may be predatory in this sector, but that shouldn't discourage us from encouraging the notion of skillset is everything. No job skill, and no hazardous job, means you're just another face in the crowd of the unwashed masses.

the mantra is work smarter, not harder. smarter doesn't always mean college.

students. My nephew took Accounting and got a job with a big firm after doing an internship there. My niece has on year left and is studying nutrition and has already done internships in a hospital and nursing home. These are jobs that are either hot now or will always have a need for more people. It's all about choosing your career and what eduction you need for it. Also putting in 100% when you are at school and making the most of what you can do to have a job waiting for you when you get out.

In comment 12155343 fkap said:

Quote:

Cam, I think, works in the iron/steel industry. enticing people to move molten ladles of iron requires some dollar incentive. I'm not in an area that has such conditions. if you don't have a job skill, you're going to work at the dollar mart for minimum wage, and Guv Coumo is going to be advocating a wage increase for you because he's doing everything to look good as a presidential candidate, er, he says you can't make a go of it on minimum wage. Where society has gone wrong, as many people, including Cam, have said is that college isn't the only place you can gain a job skill. the colleges are going to keep on advertising that college is necessary. What society needs is to realistically promote the idea that college isn't necessary, but job skills are. the 'for profit' institutions may be predatory in this sector, but that shouldn't discourage us from encouraging the notion of skillset is everything. No job skill, and no hazardous job, means you're just another face in the crowd of the unwashed masses. the mantra is work smarter, not harder. smarter doesn't always mean college.

+1

Said much better than I.

HS Councilors and Parents. HS guidance councilors are often measured by college acceptance rates and parents don't want to tell people that their kid is in a trade or technical school to learn a craft or hands-on skill. To the detriment of their children they perpetuate the college myth often sending the student into an environment not conducive to his/her success while compiling debt that will follow them for decades. It's ridiculous.

Instead, we should focus on need. And the need that lies in the skilled trades (construction, manufacturing, energy, petrochem, shipbuilding) offers young people a real and tangible opportunity to (1) make a great income; (2) own your own business; (3) hold a sense of pride in their craftsmanship; (4) travel - and many more.

The alternative to 4 years of college is 4 years of apprenticeship. You incur no debt and have a job all along the way. Once you end your apprenticeship as a journey-level craftsman you're earning far more than the college grad and you have tangible and marketable skills.

But our society is more concerned with appearance than reality. Sad.

.

38 now, met him when he was 30, took accounting. paid double for college because he wanted to live on campus instead of commuting 10 miles. still has college loans, because he deferred starting payments until that was no longer an option, and then pays the bare minimum, occasionally skipping even that until they hound him. decided within a year of graduation that he didn't like working with numbers, so he got a job which required a high school diploma, and after 15 years makes low 30's. and is living in my basement.

a perfect example of why free college, or lenient repayment terms need some guidelines. but please, pay his loans so he can move out.

is this a guy we want to have mercy on?

I beg him to get back into accounting, but he'd rather wallow in the self pity of 'I can't get a job that pays enough, Mommy help me pay my bills'


I'm in my mid 50's. there's plenty of stories similar to mine amongst my peers. there are also plenty of hard working youth's who are doing what it takes to survive. very few of them are whining about the injustice of repaying college costs.

I really didn't want to come across as disparaging hazardous duty. HD has a whole unique skillset involved, unfortunately often only gained by actually doing the job. I work with some nasty chemicals in my job and get a good appreciation of safety, but I don't begin to pretend I'm working as hazardous duty as some of the industrial workers in this country (or maybe I'm just a fucking idiot downplaying chemical 19 warnings).

I'm glad you agreed.

colleges and universities but trade schools as well. My brand new daughter-in-law has $80K in debt for the French Culinary Institute and Culinary Institute of America. She has a decent job but the majority of her income goes to paying these loans. Damn shame.

how to cook!

College is basically free over there.

In comment 12155663 BeerFridge said:

Quote:

College is basically free over there.

I'm not sure free means what you think it does.

In comment 12155669 Bill L said:

Quote:

In comment 12155663 BeerFridge said: Quote: College is basically free over there. I'm not sure free means what you think it does.

Yeah, someone is paying. They just don't bury their kids in debt is all.

In comment 12155663 BeerFridge said:

Quote:

College is basically free over there.

Cheaper without a doubt. I'm not sure about free. My nephew did a semester abroad in Germany last fall and tuition was charged by the German university, not the one in the US he attended. It could be because he was a foreign student, but (again) it was not free. Of course my sister was pleased that the tuition was the same as what she paid 30 years ago.

is free in schenectady county, NY.

only costs me 6 grand a year as a land owner....says the guy who never had kids and has a lower class dwelling he calls home, and is one of thousands of such folk living in the school district. Add another 4 years on top of that for everyone, I'll be paying 12 grand a year. Suzie homebaker won't have her room and board paid while she's learning how to cook, but she won't have to pay tuition.

(OK, so the 6 grand covers K-12, and the math is just a wee bit off. the principle remains the same. Aint nothing free in this world)

college education is extremely affordable. It's the adding room and board on top of it that piles on the debt. I'm spoiled living in NY, and living in the capitol district. there are several universities, and several SUNY schools available within commuting distance. But, I think virtually everyone in NY is within commuting distance of a SUNY school, and the little bit of research I've done says almost everyone in the US is within commuting distance of a school.

It's when you start adding on the room and board that college costs double or triple. IF you need to go out of town, say for culinary arts, then your expenses are going to be more, but if you don't and you choose to, then quit whining.

It isn't exactly free and there are less amenities and flexibility than in the US, but it's an interesting and pragmatic approach.

Not sure you can reverse the situation now. But, I do like the idea of making community college free.
Link - ( New Window )

"1. I have a fundamental problem with people or government using student loans as a revenue source. Slash the interest rates down substantially. We're trying to educate kids, not line someone's pockets."

I think this is a universal thought. My opinion is that when they changed the system, some lobbyists got in the picture (as they usually do every time the gov't tries to do something - like with health care) and got big business some nice bennies. So, it goes from trying to correct the system to fucking it up even more. this pessimism goes right to the core of why I think less gov't is better. I'm a firm believer that more regulation is better, but I also think big gov't makes for fucking up the system even more.

In comment 12156018 fkap said:

Quote:

"1. I have a fundamental problem with people or government using student loans as a revenue source. Slash the interest rates down substantially. We're trying to educate kids, not line someone's pockets." I think this is a universal thought. My opinion is that when they changed the system, some lobbyists got in the picture (as they usually do every time the gov't tries to do something - like with health care) and got big business some nice bennies. So, it goes from trying to correct the system to fucking it up even more. this pessimism goes right to the core of why I think less gov't is better. I'm a firm believer that more regulation is better, but I also think big gov't makes for fucking up the system even more.

Big business makes money but they're not the only ones profiting from colleges. For full and even associated professors it can be something approximating a sinecure, a well-paid if not necessarily lucrative endeavor with limited teaching responsibilities and pleasant enough working and living conditions. For the ever-expanding crop if administrators it can be lucrative too. Colleges lobby for access to loans because it prevents them from having to tighten their own belts, to reduce majors that aren't marketable, to limit quality of life stuff, etc etc. In short, it allows colleges and their personalities to maintain their little cocoons, with all that they entail.

In comment 12156010 BeerFridge said:

Quote:

It isn't exactly free and there are less amenities and flexibility than in the US, but it's an interesting and pragmatic approach. Not sure you can reverse the situation now. But, I do like the idea of making community college free. Link - ( New Window )

It could be that he was already enrolled when tuition was eliminated, but there was tuition. I looked at a couple of universities in the town he stayed in and they did charge an "administration fee". But the main point, that it was much, much cheaper, is valid.

In comment 12155197 Cam in MO said:

Quote:

I've been saying for years, and still believe that most kids should be encouraged to go to technical school rather than college. They'll make more money, be less in debt, and actually contribute something useful.

I agree with this Cam. In fact, I think some kids may be better off learning how to be a plumber or electrician and then starting their own business afterwards.

electricians and other tradesmen.I don't know if opportunities are abundant to those that go the technical school route. I really don't know that market

In comment 12156256 Headhunter said:

Quote:

electricians and other tradesmen.I don't know if opportunities are abundant to those that go the technical school route. I really don't know that market

Maybe I am wrong... I just always believed that plumbers and electricians were tradesmen.

.

In comment 12156277 Headhunter said:

Quote:

.

You did. I mis-spoke. meant to say that I thought learning to be an electrician was something you could do at a technical school.

In the end, it is a good idea. Too many kids graduate from college with a degree but with no skills.

that students don't graduate with no significant student loan debt...

Notice the low unemployment rate for education. Just a tad bit ironic.
Link - ( New Window )