Olineman failed to separate from each other at the combine, we signed Jones, and we really just have one hole which can be filled via free agency.
Kevin White probably goes before our pick now and Cooper could very well make it. Might be tempting to trade him to Rams or Brown for extra pick, but we JUST landed a top WR in Beckham. What are we going to do when it comes time to pay both? Who will be the #1 WR? No chance it's not anyone named Beckham so are we really using our only top 10 pick in a decade to take a # 2 WR?
We won our Super Bowls with the pass rush. And the cupboard is almost bare..
JPP is going to get franchised and could be on a one year rental deal (not sure if we could franchise him twice in a row). I hope we give him a long term deal though.
Kiwanuka was just cut.
Ayers is coming off of surgery.
Damontre Moore is very green an inexperienced. Is he ready to start opposite JPP?
Fowler Gregory Ray. I think one of them will be a Giant and our new DE. Have a feeling it's Gregory who seems to have been passed up by Fowler.
Could Reese shock the world and draft Vic Beasley??
Yet I see teams like Green Bay and Denver who can have a multiple passing targets and have no issue drafting more and thats why they are in the playoff hunt year after year.. every year we hear.. Its a passing league.. but not in Giants land.. we have ONE GUY.. we dont need anything else..
Were you wringing your hands about this when you had Nicks and Cruz and Manningham ?? NO you werent... Were you worried in 2011 about having to pay Cruz and Nicks in just two years.. NOPE you werent.. In fact if Nicks was still at the top of his game the Giants could have easily created the money to pay BOTH Nicks and Cruz..
DO you realize that the salary cap is going up by a HUGE amount because of the new TV deal next year?
Couldnt you make the same argument to a degree about the pass rushers? How many can you use at the same time? JPP. Ayers. Moore. Kennard. Wynn showed some promise... could they use some depth sure.. could they upgrade a bit.. yes absolutely.
Now can the Giants upgrade in that area.. sure.. can you see Shane Ray as a full time DE taking on a 315-325 left tackle every game for a full season... He is a little too light in the pants to me...Fowler has played at 270 so I can see him doing it. Gregory.. Same issue.. too light in the butt..
The Giants really could use some help with the linebackers. Beasley is the guy IMO that they need.
Were you worried about paying all the pass rushers when you had Strahan and Osi.. and Tuck.. NO you werent..
And in all honesty we didnt win the Superbowls because of the pass rush.. The real reason we won is because in both Superbowls we held teams to under 100 yards rushing.. in 2007 we COMPLETELY shut down the Patriots running game and their screen passes.. That made them ONE dimensional.. then the pass rush took over.. If we didnt shut the run down.. that doesnt happen.. 2011 same thing to a degree.. NE had no running game and no downfield passing attack.. we were able for the most part to keep everything in front of us..
If ANYTHING the Giants need to STOP THE RUN.. Teams last year gashed the hell out of the Giants running the ball.. When teams can consistently get 2nd and 4 and 3rd and less that five.. Your pass rush is negated to a great degree..
Biggest Giants defensive priority in all honesty.. STOP THE RUN..
And if a player like Amari Cooper is available.. You take him and worry about paying him 4-5 years LATER..
Maybe if Fowler drops to us.......a more proto typical Giants DE. But they stay true to their board.......
p.s.-- None of us know what the Giants draft board will look like. But if they have a WR and a DL rated equally, they are going to take the DL. If they have a WR and a DL rated equally, they are going to take the OL. If they have a WR and a TE rated equally, they are going to take the TE. The Giants can find themselves a #2 WR later in the draft. There will be plenty of good ones to choose from.
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Cooper would be the pick....Cooper might be 2nd best player in.entire draft
If he's the second best player in the entire draft than he's not going to drop to the Giants, is he?
p.s.-- None of us know what the Giants draft board will look like. But if they have a WR and a DL rated equally, they are going to take the DL. If they have a WR and a DL rated equally, they are going to take the OL. If they have a WR and a TE rated equally, they are going to take the TE. The Giants can find themselves a #2 WR later in the draft. There will be plenty of good ones to choose from.
Players drop all the the time for multiple different reasons..
Milton Jerry Reese has said clearly that if the grades are equal he is taking the playmaker.. NOW that being said.. you can get playmakers on the DEFENSE as well.. I dont think playmaker means only offense. However OL is not a playmaker position.. and they absolutely WILL NOT take a TE over a WR..
I agree though if Cooper is there take him, we have one receiver that is pretty much garunteed for the long run in ODB. If he goes down we have Cruz and who knows what's happening with him other than swimming great in a pool.
ODB, Cooper and Cruz for the next 5 years at least?
I'll go through another season of a mediocre OL and look towards future seasons.
p.s.-- I have no idea who the Giants will draft with the 9th pick, but if it's a right tackle or guard, it will be a right tackle or guard who the Giants think will be an impact player, not just simply a starter.
The second best player dropped to #16.
The answer is "of course the 2nd best player might drop to #9."
If a pass-rusher is on the top tier of their board at #9, the Giants are likely to pick him (though they very well might not). Otherwise, they won't. I think that's about all we can say with much confidence.
Just guessing......the USC DT and Fowler (DE with the Giants measurables) are probably our top players.
White, Parker and Cooper must be pretty high.....I feel White is a Raider type of player......
The second best player dropped to #16.
The answer is "of course the 2nd best player might drop to #9."
Just guessing......the USC DT and Fowler (DE with the Giants measurables) are probably our top players.
White, Parker and Cooper must be pretty high.....I feel White is a Raider type of player......
p.s.-- Who would've guessed that the top five on the Giants draft board in 2001 were Leonard Davis, Santana Moss, Gerard Warren, Nate Clements, and Andre Carter? Not me. And Davis spent most of his career at guard!
and Cooper could certainly be the best BPA at 9.
Personally, I think Scherff would also be acceptable at # 9. Even if he is not the long term answer at tackle, his potential to be a very good player, for years to come, at the guard position could justify the pick.
QB, TE, Safety, RB, and LB (pure lb).
Think it will come down to the following players (not necessarily in this order): Scherff, La'el Collins, Dupree, Fowler, Cooper, or Waynes (least likely IMO).
I guess from my perspective, this WR class is deep, but not top heavy. Not like last year's. Which means the value will come from drafting a WR on day two. In my mind that's the smart way to insure against Cruz not returning to form.
And I figure if this year's class does have a super blue chipper or two in it, they won't last very long when you consider their competition doesn't include any left tackles and the best passrushers are all undersized.
Also i do agree the OL and DL need additions via the draft and FA, keep in mind, this offense is a quick tempo, quick route offense. So having cooper/white along with cruz and OBJ would give defenses fits and it would help make the O line look better since eli has better weapons that can catch the ball and do something with it.
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and they absolutely WILL NOT take a TE over a WR.
If they have Maxx Williams and a WR equally graded as the BPA at #9, why wouldn't they take him over the WR? I would!
Stop deluding yourself Milton NO ONE has Maxx Williams graded as one of the top ten players in the draft...
I guess from my perspective, this WR class is deep, but not top heavy. Not like last year's. Which means the value will come from drafting a WR on day two. In my mind that's the smart way to insure against Cruz not returning to form.
And I figure if this year's class does have a super blue chipper or two in it, they won't last very long when you consider their competition doesn't include any left tackles and the best passrushers are all undersized.
Last years class was not top heavy. There were two players that were the consensus top two receivers by most.. Watkins and Evans... and they both went top ten.
Passer, Pass Rusher, Pass Receiver, Pass Protector and pass defender. QB, DE or 3 Tech DT, WR or freak TE, OT, CB or super rangy FS. Run stoppers, road graders and rushers can be found in the later rounds.
At this point, we can all agree QB, FS and TE will not be selected so it comes to OT, WR, DE and possibly the CB from Mich St. At this point, it seems like Fowler is considered the best Edge rusher and best defender after Williams. Ray, Gregory and Beasley seem like possibilities at 9, although to me Beasley seems like a Reese pick to me. Of the WR, White had a great combine but Cooper is a pro ready prospect that if available would be a run to the podium pick. Parker is a nice player but seems to be a step below the other 2.
So, it may come down to Cooper and Beasley. I think Cooper is the safer pick even though I feel we need to add play makers to our front 7 on defense very badly. I have a feeling Beasley could have a similar impact that ODB had last year. A freak athlete who is a great football player.
So, I would go Beasley?
But Fowler most likely will be gone, Ray and Gregory I do not like because they will be better suited to play 3-4 OLB.
The Giants may feel that Bealey's talent is comparable to Cooper's and select him, but I really don't like the idea of taking a college DE and making him a SAM.
I generally agree with the philosophy that you take the playmaker over the O lineman, unless the O lineman is just a bonafide blue chip LT, and for whatever reason, no one seems to think there is a single college O lineman that can play LT. I would wager the experts are wrong, and one or more of the top O Line prospects will play left tackle next season and do a pretty god job, but thats for the Giants to decide, and if that belief is stronger than their belief in Cooper's talent, then by all means, take the best O lineman, he will help the pass and run game, but I dint think it will shake out like that.
Cooper is likely the guy, if the drafts go anything like many mocks are going.
I like it.
and Cooper could certainly be the best BPA at 9.
Personally, I think Scherff would also be acceptable at # 9. Even if he is not the long term answer at tackle, his potential to be a very good player, for years to come, at the guard position could justify the pick.
I can't see OL at #9, Spag's is going to get his man in the 1st RD. There is more value at WR after Rd#1. I expect more draft choices for the "D" than "O" this year. On JPP, my concern is he only had 3.5 sacks thru 11 games and registered 9 in the last (5) games against questionable OL's. Maybe Fewell changed his schemes, I am not sure but, I question his value in relation to a $15M cap hit. I also think our OL play will be much better with our current personnel and potential FA acquisitions for depth. JMHO.
If Perry Fewell was the coach I would say no.. SPags I think would come up with ways to utilize his abilities.
(1) It's a passing league, which puts a premium on QB, DE, CB, and WR.
(2) Reese has said he likes "playmakers."
With that in mind, I think they are hoping one of Fowler, Cooper, or White slips to them, but understand that this probably won't happen. If not, they try and trade down. If that doesn't work, then Scherff, La'el Collins, and maybe Peat are in the next tier. Beasley, Gregory, and Ray project to 3-4 OLBs, and are probably therefore not highly ranked by the Giants. Good players, but they don't fit our scheme.
The "wild card" is Armstead. Freak athlete with insane measureables. The question is whether Reese is willing to take him at #9 if he can't trade down.
Don't get me wrong here - I am anxious for some new premium D blood to add to the roster - but you don't turn down a superior impact player if they are available
It's a crap shoot and the Giants won last year (Beckham) with the Rams taking second (Donald).
We could use a pass rusher but no matter what- you need to take the player that is most likely to make the most positive impact on the team. -best playmaker in round one.
Unless the Giants alter the basic prototype they look for along the DL due to some wrinkles in the 4-3 concepts that Spagnuolo will try to implement, these seem to be the prospects that fit the best (assuming Leonard Williams and Fowler are gone by 9):
Arik Armstead. A mammoth of a man standing almost 6'8 and 292 lbs who is just scratching the surface. Was consensus #1 HS player according to scout.com and 247sports. Played much OL in HS and was utilized in 3-4. Still very raw due to lack of time playing on DL. Has very rare combination of size, strength and quickness. Has shown enough flashes on tape that he has ability to be dominant once he matures/understands the nuances of playing DL. Frequently pushes back lineman he faces into backfield and could become a consistant force in disrupting passing game once he learns better technique. Can play the Canty/Tuck role of DE/DT with his combination of size and quickness. Giants may see a guy with a ton of untapped potential as they did with JPP a few years back.
Preston Smith. 6'5 271 lbs. Monster final season at Mississippi. Has very good combination of size and strength. Superb combine numbers for a man his size. Kiper on Smith: “You can’t be as productive as he was in the SEC, have a great [scouting combine] workout--his numbers across the board were outstanding--and not go in the first round in this league right now. You have the size with him, the ability, and you have the production. You put it all together and he’s a first round pick.” also " This guy had nine sacks, 15 hurries this year, blocked a couple kicks, had a couple interceptions. He was very active in Mississippi State’s defensive front, and he had a great workout.” Some may think 9 is too high and it could be but this guy could easily be a late riser as he checks off almost all the boxes.
Owa Odighizuwa. Slightly on shorter side of the 'ideal' prototype at 6'3 but still carries a strong frame and bulk for 4-3 DE in Giants system. Excellent combine numbers and has room to improve in the pros under NFL tutelage. Hip surgeries and propensity for future injury make him a risky proposition at 9.
Henry Anderson. Even better combine numbers than Armstead. Also possesses very unique combination of height/weight/speed/strength. Can line-up all over DL. Not likely at 9 but could be possibility later in draft.
Wild card pick for pass-rusher would be Vic Beasley. Amazing combination of quicks and change of direction also blazing fast off the edge. When of top combines overall out of all prospects. This is exactly the type of skillset they were hoping for when they drafted Sintim high 2nd to play hybrid DE/LB role.
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and they absolutely WILL NOT take a TE over a WR.
If they have Maxx Williams and a WR equally graded as the BPA at #9, why wouldn't they take him over the WR? I would!
They don't grade TEs and WRs equally. A highly graded WR is more valuable to them than a highly graded TE.
AcidTest : 8:37 am : link : reply
are overthinking what will happen. Two points:
(1) It's a passing league, which puts a premium on QB, DE, CB, and WR.
With it being a passing league, for me, the premium is on the select few players who can actually shut down an elite passing game (i.e. a shutdown corner or an exceptional pass rusher).
If any Joe off the street can walk and and rack up 1000 yards, I'd be less inclined to use a top 10 pick on a skill position player, not more inclined.
I agree, I disagree with the whole post. If Cooper is there you take him.
shaq may b 3rd round at this point. odi had double hip surgery and missed an entire season. lets get a grip
Armstead?
His skillset is quite unique and though production wasn't there he does flash that dominant ability enough that you know it will likely be repeatable with more refinement.
His name has popped up in the top 15-20 in a couple places. I am personally not a fan with the other options on the board but we know how important investing in DE is in the draft for Gmen. Preston Smith could be a late riser too.
Gordon may have 'only' ran a 4.5 but when you flip on the tape he is routinely running away from DBs down the field on huge TD runs and is rarely caught from behind.
His lateral agility makes LBs look silly on the second level. His vision,burst and ability to fire through the smallest holes is outstanding.
One of the best Rbs to come out in years IMO.
The key is what does NYG want moving forward defensively. Do they want an edge defender who's more mobile, explosive, has more speed? Speed and AA are needed to combat modern spread offenses. If they're moving the paradigm in this direction, then Vic and Ray are options.
I think Parker will slip, and Gordon is only an option if the tier is basically empty at #9. imo.
Fowler is the 1 DE I would grab at 9. He has already played DE at a weight heavier than Dupree is and he is a much better player than Dupree is
Armstead is tall - great. He looked totally underwhelming in 2 games against big boy competition
If Fowler is gone get a DE later,
The key is what does NYG want moving forward defensively. Do they want an edge defender who's more mobile, explosive, has more speed? Speed and AA are needed to combat modern spread offenses. If they're moving the paradigm in this direction, then Vic and Ray are options.
I think Parker will slip, and Gordon is only an option if the tier is basically empty at #9. imo.
Well said. TC did make specific mention of Steve learning much since he left specifically referencing his time with the Ravens. That paradigm shift you speak of could come into play at 9. Vic Beasley to me could be one of the best pass rushing weapons available. Could have Von Miller like impact if utilized properly.
I don't love Dupree at #9. His film is very reminiscent of Ziggy Ansah, whom I also liked for NYG. Not at #9.
Also, I didn't like Moore in the draft and still don't think he'll be what his fans believe.
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IMO Dupree is the best bet to grow into a 4-3 DE, but at 9? Parker or Gordon or the best OL on their board, IMO.
Gordon may have 'only' ran a 4.5 but when you flip on the tape he is routinely running away from DBs down the field on huge TD runs and is rarely caught from behind.
His lateral agility makes LBs look silly on the second level. His vision,burst and ability to fire through the smallest holes is outstanding.
One of the best Rbs to come out in years IMO.
I thought Peat would be as well, but Colin had been hearing otherwise leading up to the Combines, so we'll have to wait it out on him.
Other than those two, I don't think OL will be in play at #9. I know Collins has many fans on BBI, but I don't believe NYG will view him as a significant upgrade over Pugh.
He has the ability and has played with the weight to do so. That fact that he played at that weight, to me, does not make him a 'tweener' I think teams see a guy who can get back to that weight or stay where he is.
I think he provides options and that is why I do not expect him to be there at 9 anyway
Vic Beasley Put on a Show at the Combine - ( New Window )
DT primarily with rotation in at DE on some run downs and short yardage situations.
The second best player dropped to #16.
The answer is "of course the 2nd best player might drop to #9."
And the 2nd or 3rd Best Player Defensive Rookie of the year Aaron Donald dropped to #13
Beasley is beastly. But may only fit here in a similiar role they envisioned for Sintim (DE/LB). He's too light to play exclusively with his hand in the dirt. Giants would have to believe he can be productive as a LB too i.e a modicum of coverage ability , ability to play in space, as well as read the flow of the play from second level and attack the right gap etc.
I am impressed with his fluidity,hips and c.o.d ability a whole lot more than I was Sintim and think he could potentially do it.
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Think he is clearly on tape one of the 2-3 best defensive players on tape in this year's draft...and was a college defensive player of the year candidate with huge production....the concern with Beasley is he is his size and that he is too small for DE...the combine proves he might be too small for DE..but he came in at 246 ran a phenomenal 4.53 and demonstrated that he has the movement skills to be an LB...and was outstanding in drills showing tremendous movement skills...the tape looks amongst the best available defensive players the combine looked even better...picking Beasley to me looks almost like a sure thing...almost like Aaron Donald last year...hope if he is available @9 Reece gives Beasley serious consideration Vic Beasley Put on a Show at the Combine - ( New Window )
Beasley is beastly. But may only fit here in a similiar role they envisioned for Sintim (DE/LB). He's too light to play exclusively with his hand in the dirt. Giants would have to believe he can be productive as a LB too i.e a modicum of coverage ability , ability to play in space, as well as read the flow of the play from second level and attack the right gap etc.
I am impressed with his fluidity,hips and c.o.d ability a whole lot more than I was Sintim and think he could potentially do it.
I totally agree with you if he shows the kind of lucidity in his private workouts to be what the Giants envisioned with OL/DE Sintum he should be the pick...Beasley is this year's Aaron Donald...the production is off the charts...and we are looking at an extremely fast player(running a 4.53 forty) that pound 4 pound might be amongst the strongest players in this year's draft...Beasley matched Donald's 35 bench press reps and is 40lbs lighter!!!
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In comment 12155778 geelabee said:
Fluidity not lucidity....sorry iPad autocorrect
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Think he is clearly on tape one of the 2-3 best defensive players on tape in this year's draft...and was a college defensive player of the year candidate with huge production....the concern with Beasley is he is his size and that he is too small for DE...the combine proves he might be too small for DE..but he came in at 246 ran a phenomenal 4.53 and demonstrated that he has the movement skills to be an LB...and was outstanding in drills showing tremendous movement skills...the tape looks amongst the best available defensive players the combine looked even better...picking Beasley to me looks almost like a sure thing...almost like Aaron Donald last year...hope if he is available @9 Reece gives Beasley serious consideration Vic Beasley Put on a Show at the Combine - ( New Window )
Beasley is beastly. But may only fit here in a similiar role they envisioned for Sintim (DE/LB). He's too light to play exclusively with his hand in the dirt. Giants would have to believe he can be productive as a LB too i.e a modicum of coverage ability , ability to play in space, as well as read the flow of the play from second level and attack the right gap etc.
I am impressed with his fluidity,hips and c.o.d ability a whole lot more than I was Sintim and think he could potentially do it.
I totally agree with you if he shows the kind of lucidity in his private workouts to be what the Giants envisioned with OL/DE Sintum he should be the pick...Beasley is this year's Aaron Donald...the production is off the charts...and we are looking at an extremely fast player(running a 4.53 forty) that pound 4 pound might be amongst the strongest players in this year's draft...Beasley matched Donald's 35 bench press reps and is 40lbs lighter!!!
Armstead has the size and potential Giants drool over but I don't want him and his triangle numbers weren't nearly as good as JJ Watt or JPP (hoping the Giants don't take the risk).
Bluelou I am hot for Beasley because of the tape...it looks like Donald's tape last year...the best tape of any defensive player in this year's draft...just like Donald last year...the kid can flat out play...runs a 4.53...strongest defensive player lb for lb in this draft...and the combine proves he is fluid and plays in space...I see Beasley as a 250lb Von Miller type stud LB
p.s.-- There are a bunch of wide receivers in my short lists for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds.
DT is also in play but I'm not a Shelton guy and don't see value for #9.
If that doesn't materialize I'd look to O-Line as the next priority. There are a number of possibilities it simply depends on how the Giants rate them. To me Scherff is the only legit Top 10 prospect.
WR would be the final position of note for us picking #9. I expect Cooper and White to be major threats. I have both as high floor-high ceiling types.
This analysis will be effected by our ability to make inroads toward addressing our roster deficiencies in Free Agency.