I think there are probably 3-4 players the Giants slot in their first tier
Williams
White
Cooper
and maybe Parker
If any of these guys drop -- they will be picked
If they are not there - and I'd be happy with any of them -
then I think they will have
Scherff
Shelton
Peat in the next tier
If any of these guys drop that's where the debate will begin
So - since it's likely the 2 QBs go somewhere above where the Giants pick and maybe a couple of the pass rushers (Fowler, Ray, Gregory, Beasley) go up there too. I think JonC may be right - that just like Donald - the body type of the pass rushers is not what the Giants value.
So which one do you take - Scherff, Shelton or Peat
Me - Of those 3 I think they'd take Scherff - he seems more in the Giants mold
Scherff? Why? If the Giants want a guard, they won't take him at 9. If they want a left tackle, he won't replace Beatty for at least 1 year. The Giants having a year to prep a LT could easily take a solid prospect a year away. One of Clemmings, Fisher or Flowers will be available in round 2. (I actually highly recommend trying very hard to get a good LT prospect in round 2 this year.)
Quote:
But will need to see how FA unfolds and am not done reviewing some of these guys.
Scherff? Why? If the Giants want a guard, they won't take him at 9. If they want a left tackle, he won't replace Beatty for at least 1 year. The Giants having a year to prep a LT could easily take a solid prospect a year away. One of Clemmings, Fisher or Flowers will be available in round 2. (I actually highly recommend trying very hard to get a good LT prospect in round 2 this year.)
Not about a Guard or a Tackle. It is about addressing one of our biggest limitations in a big way which is lack of push up front. We were 30th in the leage in yards per carry, which is horrendous for a team that values the run (yes, we were top 10 in the league in rushing attempts despite the 3rd worse YPC average in the league). This was a major weakness for us and this kid Scherff is an absolute beast who can help address that need in a big way.
so then it's between Scherff and Peat - and I think Scherff is more the type of Lineman they like than Peat
Totally agree. I am 100% for spending whatever it takes to get a guard now who is OK with pass blocking but very good at run blocking. We need that guy immediately. I'll bet Jerry does take care of it in the first week of F/A.
1) CB is a premium position especially in a passing league
2) Prince hasn't played a single season without missing time with an injury and this is his contract year
3) DRC played much of the year with injury
4) Trae Waynes is the best player at his position
I don't think that Beasley reaches us, but I think he'd be of interest to us too, although I'm not sure how we'd use him.
To me the chalk are:
Williams
Mariota
Winston
Cooper
White
Waynes
Beasley
Fowler
Scherff
And I think we'll take whichever of them is there at 9. The discussion starts if guys like Ray and Gregory go before them, to teams whose schemes they fit. In that case we might have a choice of a WR, Waynes, or Scherff.
If we landed a young OL in FA, I think we'd go with the WR or CB before Scherff. If not Scherff has to get strong consideration.
Two years later, I wonder what we have.
Quote:
But will need to see how FA unfolds and am not done reviewing some of these guys.
Scherff? Why? If the Giants want a guard, they won't take him at 9. If they want a left tackle, he won't replace Beatty for at least 1 year. The Giants having a year to prep a LT could easily take a solid prospect a year away. One of Clemmings, Fisher or Flowers will be available in round 2. (I actually highly recommend trying very hard to get a good LT prospect in round 2 this year.)
They can get both a decent WR and a good lineman in round 2, a WR maybe even into rd 3 for a good one.They went WR last year, I don't see them doing it again.One good FA signing or a 2nd or 3rd rd WR, and honestly the WRs are set.
Same with the OL.
At this point they have a traffic jam of guys competing for the center position, I have no doubt we will have a decent center this year, or that we will sign a decent vet FA Guard, or that Walton, much to everyone's distaste, gets resigned for vet min as depth. Schwartz will be back, and even though I don't know how well he holds up or if he's the answer,I don't see the Giants drafting an OL number one. I think it's almost a certainty they grab the 2nd or 3rd best guard who will still be there in rd 2. I'll go out on a limb and say our rd 2 pick will be the guard from South Carolina, A.J. Cann.Drafting an OL with the #1 pick, then the following year drafting an OL #2, and then the year after #1 again I don't see happening.#1,#2,#2 is more likely.Otherwise it's stupid money tied up in the O-line long term.It makes fan sense, not fiscal sense.After the rookie contracts run out and we need a new LT it's going to get price prohibitive.Right now signing an OL rd 1 seems like a good idea, long term not so much.
For these reasons, lack of real need or over investment in 1 position is why I don't think in the draft room the trigger gets pulled on a WR or an Offensive lineman.
In think the #1 pick will be a defenseman,and as I said, I think we get our DT in rd 2.We Need a DE, and someone like Gregory or Shane Ray, if he is there could be the pick, but after the top DE pick or 2, which aren't expected to be there, what follows is a dropoff, so although need is there, i don't know the talent will be.Reese is generally loathe to draft LBs in rd 1,and although either Beasly or Fowler would be fines picks, as with Ray and Gregory, they aren't expected to be there, and what follows isn't worth the #9 pick, probably especially not to Reese.Landon Collins is attractive, but I think they sign a safety in FA, and he doesn't give enough value at 9.
Either someone drops, like a DE or top LB, or Cooper, or we we may get a suprise pick like CB Trae Waynes who offers too much value to pass up, as the Giants try and get that DB corps to blanket top passing games like they were trying to build last year before they got raped by injury.
Quote:
It is less about line position than it is what we are deficient in. Line was not good, but specifically the critical issue is lack of push in the run game.
Totally agree. I am 100% for spending whatever it takes to get a guard now who is OK with pass blocking but very good at run blocking. We need that guy immediately. I'll bet Jerry does take care of it in the first week of F/A.
You are not as high on the player as I am, so be it. You don't have to be a jackass to state your opinion.
Quote:
In comment 12156344 UberAlias said:
Quote:
It is less about line position than it is what we are deficient in. Line was not good, but specifically the critical issue is lack of push in the run game.
Totally agree. I am 100% for spending whatever it takes to get a guard now who is OK with pass blocking but very good at run blocking. We need that guy immediately. I'll bet Jerry does take care of it in the first week of F/A.
You are not as high on the player as I am, so be it. You don't have to be a jackass to state your opinion.
mrvax -I am taking it as you are being sarcastic here as you are arguing against the Scheriff pick. My apologies if you are not.
You are not as high on the player as I am, so be it. You don't have to be a jackass to state your opinion.
mrvax -I am taking it as you are being sarcastic here as you are arguing against the Scheriff pick. My apologies if you are not.
I wasn't tying to be sarcastic. I really feel we need immediate help now with a guy who is a proven mauler. I don't know if a draft pick guard will come right in and save the day. I believe it has to be solved with a premium FA. If so, it's not likely that a drafted Oline guy would start this year. It looks like Beatty-FA-Richburg-Schwartz-Pugh as it stands today. Scheriff would most likely sit, IMO.
If the edge rushers truly aren't fits, then they're looking at the WRs. At that point, the key to me is Cooper or White there as I think Parker will slip a little.
So, if the above is correct, it's Peat or Scherff but Colin's heard there might not be much love in NYG for Peat. It could be Scherff in the end. DT isn't likely in the mix, that would be a significant deviation for NYG, and Shelton is very likely better suited to 3-4 NT.
I wonder if the above scenario unfolds, how high do they grade Melvin Gordon. Other than a tweener edge rusher, Gordon might be the next wildcard.
If the edge rushers truly aren't fits, then they're looking at the WRs. At that point, the key to me is Cooper or White there as I think Parker will slip a little.
So, if the above is correct, it's Peat or Scherff but Colin's heard there might not be much love in NYG for Peat. It could be Scherff in the end. DT isn't likely in the mix, that would be a significant deviation for NYG, and Shelton is very likely better suited to 3-4 NT.
I wonder if the above scenario unfolds, how high do they grade Melvin Gordon. Other than a tweener edge rusher, Gordon might be the next wildcard.
Gordon is such a talent that he is one of those rare guys that could transcend the normal order of importance the Giants place on positions.
The only other guy I would add though you likely would disagree Jon is Armstead. He just fits the prototype so well. I get the lack of production is alarming. However with our 'all eyes on pass rush mentality' and less talent on the DL than we've had from previous recent years, I could see this if they think there is big-time untapped potential there.
Hope you are right. I personally think the risk is too high relative to the other options NYG would pass up.
Though, I can see why some Pundits like Bucky Brooks who was a former NFL scout, see some pretty amazing potential there (flashes on tape of amazing strength and ability to disrupt).
But unfortunately there will be incessant comparisons to Ron Dayne with Gordon
Quote:
I like Gordon -- and he's got good hands
But unfortunately there will be incessant comparisons to Ron Dayne with Gordon
The two could not be more different as players.
Quote:
In comment 12156644 gidiefor said:
Quote:
I like Gordon -- and he's got good hands
But unfortunately there will be incessant comparisons to Ron Dayne with Gordon
The two could not be more different as players.
Jon - there are differences and similarities - among the similarities -- Both Wisconsin star running back - Both candidates for the Heissman - both made their bread and butter avoiding being hit
Why is this so hard to grasp? If the BPA is a WR- You take him. Cruz shredded his knee, Randle won't be on the team in 2016...I won't even address Parker/Jernigan.
This team needs another weapon. You would take a lesser player?
I personally agree but don't know what Giants may think. He primarily played OL in HS and then was in a 2-gap 3-4 which really may not have been best system for him to flash more in. Not saying he'll be the pick but I wouldn't fully discount him either.
Quote:
I don't really believe in BPA only, I think it is a combination of BPA and need and I think this is what most teams do (including us). Wr has Beckham, Cruz, Randle, Parker, Jernigan, plus there are some good FA's like Douglass. I'd personally rather continue to beef up the OL and DL.
Why is this so hard to grasp? If the BPA is a WR- You take him. Cruz shredded his knee, Randle won't be on the team in 2016...I won't even address Parker/Jernigan.
This team needs another weapon. You would take a lesser player?
Just my opinion that I don't see the giants using two straight top 12 picks on WR's, especially since we do have some talent there and the fact that I believe that #3-6 WRs are pretty easy to pick up in FA. I would personally rather have Scherff, Peat, another OT, or a DT. I guess we will see.
Quote:
In comment 12156672 gidiefor said:
Quote:
In comment 12156644 gidiefor said:
Quote:
I like Gordon -- and he's got good hands
But unfortunately there will be incessant comparisons to Ron Dayne with Gordon
The two could not be more different as players.
Jon - there are differences and similarities - among the similarities -- Both Wisconsin star running back - Both candidates for the Heissman - both made their bread and butter avoiding being hit
Only big similarity was the uniform.
Dayne was the ultimate AAAA player.
You are right some lazy analysts or posters may make that comparison.
However, Gordon is on a different stratosphere in many ways. From his explosive cuts and side-steps on the second level to the ability to instantly identify and then burst through the smallest of holes in the blocking.
He checks off every single box you look for in a game-changing RB IMO. He may have 'only' run a 4.5 but when you watch the film he is routinely running past defenders who sometimes even have good angles on him. I think the hands are there too but we just didn't see it often in their offense.
He could be a consideration as well.
Quote:
In comment 12156578 UberAlias said:
You are not as high on the player as I am, so be it. You don't have to be a jackass to state your opinion.
mrvax -I am taking it as you are being sarcastic here as you are arguing against the Scheriff pick. My apologies if you are not.
I wasn't tying to be sarcastic. I really feel we need immediate help now with a guy who is a proven mauler. I don't know if a draft pick guard will come right in and save the day. I believe it has to be solved with a premium FA. If so, it's not likely that a drafted Oline guy would start this year. It looks like Beatty-FA-Richburg-Schwartz-Pugh as it stands today. Scheriff would most likely sit, IMO.
Got it. Sorry for taking it the wrong way.
Durability red flags that require careful examination at the Combine. Missed the second half of the 2012 season due to an ugly right leg injury (broken right leg, dislocated ankle) that required surgery and suffered a torn meniscus in his right knee in 2014 that also required surgery.
Red Flag? - ( New Window )
After the 1st round, the odds of me picking their pick correctly drop to near 0.
Yeah we don't want this guy /sarcasm off
If the edge rushers truly aren't fits, then they're looking at the WRs. At that point, the key to me is Cooper or White there as I think Parker will slip a little.
So, if the above is correct, it's Peat or Scherff but Colin's heard there might not be much love in NYG for Peat. It could be Scherff in the end. DT isn't likely in the mix, that would be a significant deviation for NYG, and Shelton is very likely better suited to 3-4 NT.
I wonder if the above scenario unfolds, how high do they grade Melvin Gordon. Other than a tweener edge rusher, Gordon might be the next wildcard.
I just don't want to draft someone for just for the sake of it, Scherff comes to mind, and not really get the value at that pick we need.
No clue what direction we'll go, but FA is going to dictate this for the most part.
To me that's the best case scenario. Trade down to around 20 and get a second round pick. There's a lot more value in this draft for the Giants (relative to the value of the pick) at around 20 then 9 IMO. There'd be several of OTs (Clemmings, Peat)and DTs (Brown, Davis, Armstead) for the Giants to choose from or they could even go with Gordon if they wanted a RB. The draft is so deep at WRs and the Giants don't need a #1 (or to pay 2 #1s in the future), so they can pick up a WR in the early middle rounds.
Quote:
lot of good options to get back to winning in the trenches at 20.
You also forgot Maxx Williams.
No I didn't.
I am quietly praying Cooper drops. OBJ and Amari together for a guaranteed four years would be AMAZING. Remember, Randle is in a contract year and Cruz is coming off a bad injury. We may not be able to sign Randle in 2016 if he puts up big numbers due to OBJ drawing double teams. And we may not want to pay Cruz his salary in 2016 - especially if he is average in 2015.
My hopes are Amari Cooper or a trade down where we get a teams #1 in say teens and a starting 3rd year OG as that would give us 2 years with him.
Quote:
lot of good options to get back to winning in the trenches at 20.
You also forgot Maxx Williams.
You gonna jump off the roof when Maxx goes in the 3rd round?
RE: DL - Dupree or maybe Flowers.
Cooper if he is there, not sure he will be. Not sure Giants view White and certainly Parker on the same tier.
Personally, I think it will be - Collins, Peat, or Scherff. Just not sure where these guys are on Giant's board.