NJ.Com's Powell's rationale re Giants' leverage with JPP

which should read in the short term

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term, that $14-15 million in salary will make Pierre-Paul very happy. But it doesn't mean he would necessarily be any closer to retiring as a Giant. Assuming Pierre-Paul plays under the tag in 2015, the Giants could use that year to evaluate him further and see if a healthy, motivated Pierre-Paul can sustain his good production at the end of 2014 through an entire season.

is playing better than JPP right now. let's be realistic here. he deserves bennett $$$ but he is no longer standing above his peers

that is

In comment 12157761 area junc said:

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is playing better than JPP right now. let's be realistic here. he deserves bennett $$$ but he is no longer standing above his peers

How is Bennett playing any better than jpp? Bennett played on a better defense last year. Big difference.

It would make the offense dominate in an offensive era.

And to be clear: I'm all for a pass-rusher at #9. I just don't think there is one worth the slot.

I expect Reese to draft a RB as well at some point.

Johnson's production this season. Get that? Doubled.

Let's be realistic here.. Stop making shit up. JPP finished with approx 75 tackles and 12.5 sacks while the amazing and seemingly elite Michael johnson finished with a whopping 35 tackles and 7 sacks...

Please stop spouting bullshit. I know we all want jpp to sign for pennies and the grass is always greener but this myth that JPP is not one of the elite DEs in all of football is only a myth on BBi. The real world knows full well I'll is an elite player and he will get paid handsomely. Be prepared. Someone will pay jpp a boat load of cash because he's an elite de.

It only lets them walk away from a good player. It doesn't help them get the player under contract at a reasonable cost, only the ability to give up. But you want as many good players on your team as possible.

Its a silly article. Are the Giants better off with more good DE's? Of course, that helps with contracts and injuries and being a better team. But it is true of every other position on the team. And having a great DE opposite JPP doesn't make him less valuable, probably more. You franchise him this year, bring in a stud at the other end and JPP avoids the double teams and has a great year. Is he going to be easier to sign as a result? Of course not.

Got to just pick the best players on your board.

I like fowler at 9

Is nice but the Giants need a very good player in the draft. They don't need leverage they need players that will help close out toughly contested games. They need guys that will make plays in the 4th quarter. They don't need a tackle or a guard or a pass rusher or a WR in case cruz doesn't come back. They need players. Draft the guy that hates to lose and doesn't even think about being a backup.

no 4-3 DE stacks up at #9, imo. Powell's looking at that pick like a fan ...

Fowler, maybe. Ray, possibly. Gregory? The same Randy Gregory who struggles to keep his weight north of 235? Looks more like a complement to Pierre-Paul than a replacement.

There seems to be a good chance all three are gone by #9 anyway.

Big hole at DE? Must pick DE at #9!

Someone will pay jpp a boat load of cash because he's an elite de.

Good, let them pay this year to the tune of 2 #1's.... I don't see it happening. JPP is good but he's not JPP 2011 good.

and taking up 15 million of the cap space would only be worth 2011 JPP ...

You can look at anyones potential pick for us and say 'ugh average fan, hole at x, must pick x'.

Aren't 4-3 DEs. You can wish all you like but they just aren't built for that role. Second, the money isn't an issue as long as they think JPP is healthy. The Giants have enough money to afford JPP at the $12m per figure most think is reasonable.

WR isn't a luxury it's a need. Also the Giants would be better off signing Jabaal Sheard in free agency rather than taking any of the DE options at 9.

In comment 12157803 Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) said:

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Someone will pay jpp a boat load of cash because he's an elite de. Good, let them pay this year to the tune of 2 #1's.... I don't see it happening. JPP is good but he's not JPP 2011 good. and taking up 15 million of the cap space would only be worth 2011 JPP ...

The JPP of 2011 had Tuck, Osi, Joseph, and Canty for opposing offenses to deal with. If Demontre Moore, Hankins and Bromley can continue to develop, and if JPP can stay healthy, I think his production will be closer to 2011.

Very similar to the "Beatty makes too much $" argument.

In comment 12157785 djm said:

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Johnson's production this season. Get that? Doubled. Let's be realistic here.. Stop making shit up. JPP finished with approx 75 tackles and 12.5 sacks while the amazing and seemingly elite Michael johnson finished with a whopping 35 tackles and 7 sacks... Please stop spouting bullshit. I know we all want jpp to sign for pennies and the grass is always greener but this myth that JPP is not one of the elite DEs in all of football is only a myth on BBi. The real world knows full well I'll is an elite player and he will get paid handsomely. Be prepared. Someone will pay jpp a boat load of cash because he's an elite de.

Couldn't said it better my self...what the idiots on this board deserve if for the Giants to low ball...and then watch JPP sign with Dallas and Washington and terrorize the Giants O for years...

Unlike the people on this board...I still don't think we've seen the best of JPP because of a limited football background and he spent a year getting over a serious back injury...what we saw in the 2nd half is what a health JPP looks like...I don't buy the BS about Shittty teams...In the 2nd half of the season JPP went up against quality NFL players...even bottom of the barrel teams have high draft choices playing LT and in some cases Probowl quality players that he beat like a drum in the 2nd half...

All you have to do is look at a list of the top 10 DEs...who would you take over JPP outside of Watt in a straight up trade?? Answer

CANT FIND A SINGLE PLAYER I WOULD TAKE BASED ON PRODUCTION AND UPSIDE.

The Giants have 2 choices either pay JPP the going rate for a top 2-3 DE..Or trade JPP now...its that simple...Franchising and let him play out is risky as well...what happens if JPP is health and then gets 18-20 sacks next year...then what?

if his back problem is or becomes truly chronic..I suspect that more than money per se, the Giants are grappling with his back stuff and whether or not to hedge their bets..

That is and has been my biggest concern..

In comment 12157838 Big Blue '56 said:

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if his back problem is or becomes truly chronic..I suspect that more than money per se, the Giants are grappling with his back stuff and whether or not to hedge their bets.. That is and has been my biggest concern..

Good point. Backs are tricky. May be the smartest move to play him on a 1 year deal if we don't get him at long term numbers we are comfortable with (or maybe very incentive laden).

that could very well be the big stumbling block..That is, JPP's camp fighting the possible language in the contract that could penalize JPP a lot should his back rear its ugly head..

Has to be based on a realistic assessment based on where the Giants rank JPP relative to the top 10 DEs based on both production, potential, and youth...there is a market for DE THATS already established...its that simple...its not based on what the morons on this board think he should get...or personal feelings it should be based on the market...what really pisses me off is people interjecting personal feels and jealousy into the discussion.

THE ONLY QUESTION TO BE ASKED HERE IS GIVE ME A TRUE ASSESMENT WHERE JPP RANKS RELATIVE TO THE TOP 10 DE...BASED ON PRODUCTION, YOUTH, AND POTENTIAL UPSIDE...THATS ALL!!

In comment 12157838 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

if his back problem is or becomes truly chronic..I suspect that more than money per se, the Giants are grappling with his back stuff and whether or not to hedge their bets.. That is and has been my biggest concern..

If that's the case and how the really feel....the should trade JPP immediately to the highest bidder and move on...

Other teams have Doctors, access to MRIs, etc...

and probably feel they are willing to take the risk ....to a point. Besides, as another poster mentioned, there is no better alternative with the upside of JPP out there.

to death, it's quite possible that JPP's back issues are (hopefully) under control save for tolerable spasms from time to time..

In comment 12157796 JonC said:

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Big hole at DE? Must pick DE at #9!

What's a better choice? I'm all for WR or a member on the DL. Because outside JPP and Hankins, the rest of the crew are just ordinary dudes. They really need to upgrade at the other DE spot and need to address the DT spot a well.

The market is the market.......for JPP

The draft is not loaded with Giants type of DE.......maybe Fowler.

Gregory weighs 230.......stop the lunacy.

Strahan had back problems at a similar stage in his career. His became mangeable at first and then went away. I do not want to think of Pierre-Paul not being on the Giants in '15. Ayers, Wynn & Moore will not hold up against the run.

You can write that down.

The question is: Do you pay him now? Or later?

People are bitching about 12.5 sacks. How much do you think he will cost after Spags gets 14 out of him?

He's not that far off.

In comment 12157863 George from PA said:

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The market is the market.......for JPP The draft is not loaded with Giants type of DE.......maybe Fowler. Gregory weighs 230.......stop the lunacy.

What's a Giant type DE? Tall, lean, bulk?

Not every DE is going to be Tuck and Pierre-Paul in stature. Demontre Moore is 6'5", 250, but has not shown to be quite reliable just yet, notably against the run. He also ran a 4.9.

An end like Gregory is 6'6" and has room to bulk up. He would not need to start every game or need to play JPP snaps. There's Moore and Ayers also. Point is, there's a big group of pass rushers in this draft and the Giants will pick one. It's a matter of when.

Do any of us think he's not capable of having another 10-15 sack season, especially if motivated by a franchise tag? If the team isn't so terrible his value will only go up next year. I really think it's much more unlikely that he has a worse season than this past one, barring a big injury (which is probably a 20% possibility for any single player in the NFL any given year).

Might as well get it done now, hope you're getting a slight premium over what he would cost if he has a pro bowl year and reduce his cap # to be able to spend more in FA (vs. tag) - unless he's being completely unreasonable and looking for JJ Watt money, in which case they should plan for this to be his last here in blue.

In comment 12157785 djm said:

Quote:

Johnson's production this season. Get that? Doubled. Let's be realistic here.. Stop making shit up. JPP finished with approx 75 tackles and 12.5 sacks while the amazing and seemingly elite Michael johnson finished with a whopping 35 tackles and 7 sacks... Please stop spouting bullshit. I know we all want jpp to sign for pennies and the grass is always greener but this myth that JPP is not one of the elite DEs in all of football is only a myth on BBi. The real world knows full well I'll is an elite player and he will get paid handsomely. Be prepared. Someone will pay jpp a boat load of cash because he's an elite de.

It's about freaking time someone stood and said this. Bravo dj

I suspect the Giants will make the pick very fast especially if he's a little heavier at pro day.

He's ridiculously talented and has that long projectable frame. Jason Taylor had a similar frame and was a great RE.

Anyway, I'd draft him even if they resign JPP. We need more pass rushers.

The only guy who's a direct replacement for JPP is Greg Hardy. No one else in free agency or this draft short of Leonard Williams even comes close. If the giants have another awful season they might be in the running for Joey Bosa next year who looks every part a dominant 4-3 end. Gregory and Fowler have a long way to go to even be effective every down NFL starters let alone JPP replacements. They can be great players but its foolhardy to expect that in their first or even second seasons, especially Gregory who's extremely raw and still growing physically.

But I'll never understand why people keep mentioning Randy Gregory and the Giants in the same sentence. He is 235lbs, which limits him to a 3-4. I'm not optimistic the Giants can find a 4-3 DE at #9. The strength of the 1st round as far as pass rushers go is the 3-4 OLB. Unless a player surges, DE might need to be addressed in the 2nd or 3rd round.

can gain 15 lbs?

In comment 12157912 chris r said:

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I suspect the Giants will make the pick very fast especially if he's a little heavier at pro day. He's ridiculously talented and has that long projectable frame. Jason Taylor had a similar frame and was a great RE. Anyway, I'd draft him even if they resign JPP. We need more pass rushers.

You really think so? I'd be shocked if they took him. If he was 250 I could see it, but 235-240 really doesn't seem to fit what the Giants look for.

In comment 12157921 chris r said:

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can gain 15 lbs?

Chris, I think he can gain 15lbs, but what I worry about is:


1. Can he gain 15 and still be the same player?
2. He hasn't played 4-3 DE in college, how long do the Giants have to wait for him to make an impact?

Would love to be totally wrong about this as the guy was a great college player, but I have my doubts.

For the record, my above post was not in response to your post, it was a reference to the article. Hadn't read your comment before I posted. Was not a directed attack toward you.

In comment 12157927 Emil said:

Quote:

In comment 12157912 chris r said: Quote: I suspect the Giants will make the pick very fast especially if he's a little heavier at pro day. He's ridiculously talented and has that long projectable frame. Jason Taylor had a similar frame and was a great RE. Anyway, I'd draft him even if they resign JPP. We need more pass rushers. You really think so? I'd be shocked if they took him. If he was 250 I could see it, but 235-240 really doesn't seem to fit what the Giants look for.

I do agree with you that we need more rushers regardless

In comment 12157896 RetroJint said:

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Strahan had back problems at a similar stage in his career. His became mangeable at first and then went away. I do not want to think of Pierre-Paul not being on the Giants in '15. Ayers, Wynn & Moore will not hold up against the run.

I hear you, but how can we equate the two without a proper diagnosis, which we currently don't have?

lets see how he looks at his pro day.

I think he's probably the most physically talented guy in the draft and that frame is projectable. It could be one of those JPP like high risk high reward picks.

In comment 12157936 chris r said:

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lets see how he looks at his pro day. I think he's probably the most physically talented guy in the draft and that frame is projectable. It could be one of those JPP like high risk high reward picks.

I agree that his physical talents are off the charts. His 1.60 10 yard split is out of this world good for a 6-4 long armed rusher. I think he would benefit greatly from some pro coaching, especially from a position coach.

If he weighs in a 250lbs or more, I'll happily change my tune.

In the 1st round you'd better be sure about a guy. You don't avoid a WR if he's on the top tier and far above anyone else there. You either take him or trade down (like we did, twice, until we took Kiwi even though we had a nice complement of DEs at the time).

I'm not pushing a WR at #9, I'm just saying that you have to go with your board.

Brandon has a 7.2 mill cap number. He's certainly going to be released right?

Some good pros and cons here
Randy Gregory Draft Profile - ( New Window )

Not Brandon

In comment 12157945 Rflairr said:

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Not Brandon

Might restructure. If he doesn't then he will be released.