Ian Rapoport & #8207;@RapSheet 4m4 minutes ago
Officially: Dez Bryant, Justin Houston, Jason Pierre-Paul, and Demaryius Thomas have been franchise tagged, sources say.
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Giants may think he'll lower his contract demands rather than risk playing an entire season with no guaranteed money.
As I said, there are pros and cons to keeping him. Keeping him allows other players another year to mature. But it's very expensive, and his unhappiness and desire to stay healthy may influence his commitment on the field. I'd lean towards trading him if possible, even though we'd never get 2 #1s in return.
No one is saying he's a slob, but the difference between 2011 and 2012 can be all it takes for an athlete of JPP's quality to lose a step and/or be more susceptible to injury.
Also, if no agreement is reached before the season and he skips training camp I'd expect 2015 to be a complete loss for him and a waste of money for the Giants.
JPP most definitely sniffed 2011 just this past season. He was great in 2014.
Oh wait I forgot, we are not allowed to credit JPP for his play in 2014 because his sacks came in bunches.
The guy has had a better start to his career than the following NYG legends:
Strahan
Armstead
Why is it a forgone conclusion that JPP is going to regress and get fat and lazy? I look at his 5 year career here and see a lot more good than bad. I don't even see any bad actually. I see one year where the guy was fresh off back surgery yet the guy played early on that year and risked his career just to play.
I think JPP has holes in his game and yes, there's some concern because he has the back but he's now 2 full years and a pro bowl caliber season removed from early 2013.
If you don't want to sign JPP, a guy entering his second contract and his prime, then you really don't want to sign any big time Dlinemen to a big contract. If you do, i'd love to know the guy because that dude must be 100% flawless. And he's playing elsewhere, which means he is not flawless because we don't know how he would play here for the Giants now do we...
And never ever ever says or does anything even remotely stupid. And he can't be a Giant because NYG players are always flawed and over paid and dangerous and risky.
And never ever ever says or does anything even remotely stupid. And he can't be a Giant because NYG players are always flawed and over paid and dangerous and risky.
God forbid a player shows up at a sporting event. We will then question if said player "has his head on straight"
Use that money to sign free agents that have been deemed by their personnel people to be more likely to be worth the contracts they command on the open market.
It doesn't have to be anyone expensive, necessarily. It SHOULD be a player(s) that have been deemed to have their best football in front of them. I don't know who those players are, but I'm sure the Giants have scouts and evaluators that do.
had to be done. am I excited? no. The fact that we are scared shitless is more an indictment on our lack of confidence or talent in any one else at the position than it is that we are keeping one of the best DEs in football.
There is not a lot of argument at BBI that JPP is the later and if there was, I would disagree.
I don't think Terps is wrong to be concerned with the amount of money we are locking up into JPP this year. But i also don't see what the alternative was because we couldn't let him walk.
I actually like this a lot better than signing JPP to a long term deal for $14m. I'd rather be handcuffed and let him play out this year and give the guys around him another year to grow. But then again, I am in the minority perhaps and do not think the Giants are close heading into next year.
he deserves more than what he makes and no DE deserves to be in the same conversation....
The Giants and JPP, if they agree to terms, will likely agree to something at the high end of this list and... dare I say it, why shouldn't they pay him that? Consider his ceiling and look at other DEs numbers, compared to his.
Use that money to sign free agents that have been deemed by their personnel people to be more likely to be worth the contracts they command on the open market.
It doesn't have to be anyone expensive, necessarily. It SHOULD be a player(s) that have been deemed to have their best football in front of them. I don't know who those players are, but I'm sure the Giants have scouts and evaluators that do.
You aren't finding many of those guys on the open market. And if you do, you're gonna have to over pay.
We signed a guy like that once or twice. Canty comes to mind--and he ending up costing us a small fortune. We also signed DRC who was sort of just about to enter his prime---again small fortune.
JPP is a Giant. He's flourished here. He's a known commodity. Of course you have to be reasonable and can't spoil the plan just for the sake of signing this guy long term but if you don't sign a guy like JPP, only now entering into his prime and playing a premium position, you might as well just rebuild. And even then, i'd keep JPP because rebuilding still requires talent on the roster to build around.
Signing JPP is a necessary evil. You aren't getting some young ascending pass-rusher for cheap in today's NFL. That's a pipe dream. Go try and sign a guy like McPhee from the Ravens--a guy I like, and see how much he costs.
they wouldn't be so far apart on the contract that they'd feel the need to franchise him. I think they like him, but have reservations about him. That should be the red flag for them, but their reservations don't seem to outweigh their attachment to the player. We've seen them make mistakes in this area in the past.
Hey I have no particular dislike for JPP. Just calling it like I see it.
with the poor competition. It's the silliest argument BBI has made in a long time.
JPP shit all over some of the best left tackles in the NFL this past season and he played like a God in the 2011 postseason. The guy can play. We know that.
can go back and forth on his play over the years. I thought he was very good last year, rounding into form. I don't care that his sacks came in bunches at the end of the season. As others have said, he was good against Smith, and may well be the best run stuffing DE in football.
What concerns me is that he did show up out of shape one year, and has had back problems, including surgery. It also costs nearly $15M to keep him, all of which counts against this year's cap, and he may be unhappy the whole year. Just see what the FA market is for his services. He can still negotiate with other teams. We'll know more in a few days.
15 million for one year is a pretty good "Guarantee"
Sure, he'd get more on a long term deal, but worse case scenario he gets 15 mil. He is set for life. Even if he got hurt next, say he tore his ACL, he would still make money in 2016 - he would sign on with someone for good money.
But, if he's worried about his back, then maybe he does want to sign a long term deal and take a larger pay day now.
Hopefully they'll work out their differences and get something done so we aren't stuck with a 15 mil in cap space for 2015.
the Giants should have reservations about a long term deal
and for the record, I hate the FT but I am praying that they come to terms and can scrap the FT by the time FA rolls around.
I don't want to keep JPP at one more year for 15 per. I think that's counterproductive. I can see why they tagged him but I really hope a long term deal is reached. Fuck this 15 mill cap hit.
Would love to get a 1st this year and a 1st next year for him
And who do you think JPP is? There isn't any way in Haitis another team would sign him and give up (2) 1st rounders plus pay his price! I truly question if he is worth the $15M, call me lame-crazy-ill informed! JMHO.
There are some question marks though that are unavoidable:
- He came in out of shape after his best season
- He's been injury prone
- The defense has been garbage in each of his five pro seasons (this obviously isn't entirely his fault, but we're talking about paying him cornerstone money here)
Be objective. How many times do big guys get more committed (and healthier) once they get the kind of money JPP figures to get in his next contract?
If I'm an Eagle or Cowboy fan this news makes me happy.
Good post Terps.
Do you know (or does anyone else) a team can remove the franchise tag? For instance, let's say they did this to buy time to negotiate a longer deal and couldn't come to an agreement. Can they then take the tag away and let him become a FA?
It's about as basic question: will the return on the investment be sufficient to justify the investment? I think there are enormous reasons to question whether it would be. For me that's what it's all about.
And I think the Giants took a half measure in tagging him. In doing so I think they've tipped their hand about their reservations over a market rate contract as well as risked alienating the player and hurting the 2015 season.
These things rarely end well.
RE: It's not about letting him walk without a fight
It's about as basic question: will the return on the investment be sufficient to justify the investment? I think there are enormous reasons to question whether it would be. For me that's what it's all about.
And I think the Giants took a half measure in tagging him. In doing so I think they've tipped their hand about their reservations over a market rate contract as well as risked alienating the player and hurting the 2015 season.
The
AcidTest : 3:16 pm : link : reply
Giants may think he'll lower his contract demands rather than risk playing an entire season with no guaranteed money.
Well, he can step off a curb, once he signs it, because that 15M is guaranteed....
The
AcidTest : 3:16 pm : link : reply
Giants may think he'll lower his contract demands rather than risk playing an entire season with no guaranteed money.
Well, he can step off a curb, once he signs it, because that 15M is guaranteed....
Good point. The $15M is guaranteed once he signs it. An injury would hurt his ability to get additional guaranteed money in his next contract, but the entire $15M is guaranteed.
they wouldn't be so far apart on the contract that they'd feel the need to franchise him.
Hey I have no particular dislike for JPP. Just calling it like I see it.
I disagree with the assumption that the Giants used the franchise tag because they were far apart. Past history has shown that the team has been able to come to terms with a player after franchising him so why is this case different?
is the that money it ties up will prevent other, desperately needed, moves.
By the time this gets resolved, all the best players may well be gone. Best case scenario, he gets more realistic sense of his value and signs and Giants may be able to sign something form the leftovers. Worst case scenario - JPP plays one more year limiting their ability to make moves, then walks away next year - impacting two off-seasons of rebuilding. Keeping in mind the shelf life left on Eli.
Not sure there was a good resolution to the JPP issue.
RE: It's not about letting him walk without a fight
In doing so I think they've tipped their hand about their reservations over a market rate contract as well as risked alienating the player and hurting the 2015 season.
They haven't risked anything about 2015. Not yet, anyway. It's March 2nd.
If they don't sign him to a long term deal and they let him play on the FT? Yep, that could very well be an issue.
But if they sign him to a long term deal, then he'll be all forgiving...
We don't know what we don't know. We make the best decision with all the info we have.
I'm not sure what the alternative here is. The Giants made the best move at this time. If he walks, the get two #1s.
It's strange- The argument is that we don't know if we'll get sufficient ROI, but somehow the draft/free agency carries no risk? I don't get it.
I'm not sure why anyone here is shocked about any of this.
I'm not shocked by any of this, I just think it's a mistake.
And we all know we aren't going to be getting two number ones. Instead we're going to get a potentially unhappy player at a $15 million cap hit in 2015.
And of course any other free agent or draft pick is going to be an unknown quantity to an extent. My point is simply that JPP is as well known a quantity as you can expect to have, and I don't value that quantity the same way the Giants do. Not even close.
There are some question marks though that are unavoidable:
- He came in out of shape after his best season
- He's been injury prone
- The defense has been garbage in each of his five pro seasons (this obviously isn't entirely his fault, but we're talking about paying him cornerstone money here)
Be objective. How many times do big guys get more committed (and healthier) once they get the kind of money JPP figures to get in his next contract?
If I'm an Eagle or Cowboy fan this news makes me happy.
Good post Terps.
Do you know (or does anyone else) a team can remove the franchise tag? For instance, let's say they did this to buy time to negotiate a longer deal and couldn't come to an agreement. Can they then take the tag away and let him become a FA?
No.
Yes. If the franchise tag has not yet been signed it can be removed.
Look. I'm going to have an unpopular opinion here but with all of the pro-JPP talk this stuff needs to be said.
1) The guy has a chronic bad back. Are we looking to lock a guy up for one of the richest contracts in NFL history with a known issue?
2) The guy is a little immature (see Prince incident).
3) The guy has in the past reported to camp out of shape. Last year was a CONTRACT year and he still wasn't in the condition he was when he was drafted.
4) The guy is an top end pass rusher when he isn't the focus of an opposing OL and a MEDIOCRE run stuffer. This BS I read about him being so stout against the run like Strahan is BS. PLENTY of times the opponent ran right at him and he got blown off the ball or got lost on a pass rush as the back scooted past him.
5) He had to be taken off the field due to injury at least 6 times last year. Now some times he came back but it's just not a good indication of a reliable sturdy player.
What I am saying is this. He isn't a game changer like Watt or even Suh.
In my opinion, JPP is a slightly above average DE who doesn't excel against stiff competition.
That's why the franchise tag is perfect for him. Yes it's a big hit this year on the cap but he's still young. If he wants it, then let him prove me wrong. If he has 16 sacks and an all pro year then pay the dude. Last year was a chance for him in a contract year to play lights out. He played OK. That's it. OK.
If he wants security this year I offer him a deal like Linval got from the vikes- 6 years 30 million or something along those lines with some of it being incentive based. Take it, or play on the tag.
a few days he can start talking with other teams. Somebody with a lot of cap room might well offer him a lot. Of course, it's not just the big contract. It's the draft picks, even if it is less than 2 #1s. Teams may just prefer to wait a year until he is a FA, so they don't have to give up the picks. But he's a marquee player with name recognition around the league. I think the total cost will be too high, but stranger things have happened.
As I said, there are pros and cons to keeping him. Keeping him allows other players another year to mature. But it's very expensive, and his unhappiness and desire to stay healthy may influence his commitment on the field. I'd lean towards trading him if possible, even though we'd never get 2 #1s in return.
Never gets hurt
Plays cheap
2011 - All Pro Year playing with an in Prime Tuck, Osi and Kiwi
2012 - Injured, out of shape and bad year
2013 - a disgrace (granted recovering from injury)
2014 - Weeks 1-13 - Awful, Weeks 14-17 - All Pro against mediocre competition.
NOT WORTH $15 Million - IMO
Also, if no agreement is reached before the season and he skips training camp I'd expect 2015 to be a complete loss for him and a waste of money for the Giants.
2011 - All Pro Year playing with an in Prime Tuck, Osi and Kiwi
2012 - Injured, out of shape and bad year
2013 - a disgrace (granted recovering from injury)
2014 - Weeks 1-13 - Awful, Weeks 14-17 - All Pro against mediocre competition.
NOT WORTH $15 Million - IMO
Won't even bother with 2012 since so many of you just look at sack totals.
But if you think he was AWFUL in weeks 1-13 you don't know football.
Oh wait I forgot, we are not allowed to credit JPP for his play in 2014 because his sacks came in bunches.
The guy has had a better start to his career than the following NYG legends:
Strahan
Armstead
Why is it a forgone conclusion that JPP is going to regress and get fat and lazy? I look at his 5 year career here and see a lot more good than bad. I don't even see any bad actually. I see one year where the guy was fresh off back surgery yet the guy played early on that year and risked his career just to play.
I think JPP has holes in his game and yes, there's some concern because he has the back but he's now 2 full years and a pro bowl caliber season removed from early 2013.
If you don't want to sign JPP, a guy entering his second contract and his prime, then you really don't want to sign any big time Dlinemen to a big contract. If you do, i'd love to know the guy because that dude must be 100% flawless. And he's playing elsewhere, which means he is not flawless because we don't know how he would play here for the Giants now do we...
Never gets hurt
Plays cheap
More like: Never gets hurt, plays to the level of his pay.
Never gets hurt
Plays cheap
And never ever ever says or does anything even remotely stupid. And he can't be a Giant because NYG players are always flawed and over paid and dangerous and risky.
2011 - All Pro Year playing with an in Prime Tuck, Osi and Kiwi
2012 - Injured, out of shape and bad year
2013 - a disgrace (granted recovering from injury)
2014 - Weeks 1-13 - Awful, Weeks 14-17 - All Pro against mediocre competition.
NOT WORTH $15 Million - IMO
My god you're lost. He had a bad year in 2012? Who says so? You? 2013 he was a disgrace? I've seen disgraceful. That's not it.
2014? WTF...awful? I can't even deal with this shit anymore...it's like watching a monkey fuck a football.
Quote:
Dominate
Never gets hurt
Plays cheap
And never ever ever says or does anything even remotely stupid. And he can't be a Giant because NYG players are always flawed and over paid and dangerous and risky.
God forbid a player shows up at a sporting event. We will then question if said player "has his head on straight"
It doesn't have to be anyone expensive, necessarily. It SHOULD be a player(s) that have been deemed to have their best football in front of them. I don't know who those players are, but I'm sure the Giants have scouts and evaluators that do.
There is not a lot of argument at BBI that JPP is the later and if there was, I would disagree.
I don't think Terps is wrong to be concerned with the amount of money we are locking up into JPP this year. But i also don't see what the alternative was because we couldn't let him walk.
I actually like this a lot better than signing JPP to a long term deal for $14m. I'd rather be handcuffed and let him play out this year and give the guys around him another year to grow. But then again, I am in the minority perhaps and do not think the Giants are close heading into next year.
The Giants and JPP, if they agree to terms, will likely agree to something at the high end of this list and... dare I say it, why shouldn't they pay him that? Consider his ceiling and look at other DEs numbers, compared to his.
JPP - UFA ($4M 2014 cap hit) (77 tackles, 12.5 sacks, 3 FF)
Mario Williams - $16M (42 tackles (14.5 sacks, 2 FF)
Robert Quinn - $14.2M (46 tackles, 10.5 sacks, 5 FF)
Greg Hardy - UFA ($13.1M 2014 cap hit) (Played 1 game in 2014)
Charles Johnson - $12.6M (41 tackles, 8.5 sacks, 3 FF)
Trent Cole - $12.1M (52 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 3 FF)
Chris Long - $12.1M (Played 1 game in 2014)
Calais Campbell - $11M (58 tackles, 7 sacks)
Junior Galette - $10.375M (45 tackles, 10 sacks, 3 FF)
Well, that is $15 million of cap space gone..
It doesn't have to be anyone expensive, necessarily. It SHOULD be a player(s) that have been deemed to have their best football in front of them. I don't know who those players are, but I'm sure the Giants have scouts and evaluators that do.
You aren't finding many of those guys on the open market. And if you do, you're gonna have to over pay.
We signed a guy like that once or twice. Canty comes to mind--and he ending up costing us a small fortune. We also signed DRC who was sort of just about to enter his prime---again small fortune.
JPP is a Giant. He's flourished here. He's a known commodity. Of course you have to be reasonable and can't spoil the plan just for the sake of signing this guy long term but if you don't sign a guy like JPP, only now entering into his prime and playing a premium position, you might as well just rebuild. And even then, i'd keep JPP because rebuilding still requires talent on the roster to build around.
Signing JPP is a necessary evil. You aren't getting some young ascending pass-rusher for cheap in today's NFL. That's a pipe dream. Go try and sign a guy like McPhee from the Ravens--a guy I like, and see how much he costs.
Hey I have no particular dislike for JPP. Just calling it like I see it.
JPP shit all over some of the best left tackles in the NFL this past season and he played like a God in the 2011 postseason. The guy can play. We know that.
What concerns me is that he did show up out of shape one year, and has had back problems, including surgery. It also costs nearly $15M to keep him, all of which counts against this year's cap, and he may be unhappy the whole year. Just see what the FA market is for his services. He can still negotiate with other teams. We'll know more in a few days.
But, if he's worried about his back, then maybe he does want to sign a long term deal and take a larger pay day now.
Hopefully they'll work out their differences and get something done so we aren't stuck with a 15 mil in cap space for 2015.
But more than a few posters are saying to let this guy walk without much of a fight. That's nonsense.
Well, that is $15 million of cap space gone..
JJ Watt had 13 sacks against: Wash, NYG, Ten, Clev, Jax.
What was it you were saying about "poor competition"?
I don't want to keep JPP at one more year for 15 per. I think that's counterproductive. I can see why they tagged him but I really hope a long term deal is reached. Fuck this 15 mill cap hit.
And who do you think JPP is? There isn't any way in Haitis another team would sign him and give up (2) 1st rounders plus pay his price! I truly question if he is worth the $15M, call me lame-crazy-ill informed! JMHO.
Want to win the East? Beat up on the bad teams. Feast on the weak.
So yeah...keep on beating that drum.
Quote:
There are some question marks though that are unavoidable:
- He came in out of shape after his best season
- He's been injury prone
- The defense has been garbage in each of his five pro seasons (this obviously isn't entirely his fault, but we're talking about paying him cornerstone money here)
Be objective. How many times do big guys get more committed (and healthier) once they get the kind of money JPP figures to get in his next contract?
If I'm an Eagle or Cowboy fan this news makes me happy.
Good post Terps.
Do you know (or does anyone else) a team can remove the franchise tag? For instance, let's say they did this to buy time to negotiate a longer deal and couldn't come to an agreement. Can they then take the tag away and let him become a FA?
No.
New York Giants Designate Jason Pierre-Paul Franchise Player - ( New Window )
And I think the Giants took a half measure in tagging him. In doing so I think they've tipped their hand about their reservations over a market rate contract as well as risked alienating the player and hurting the 2015 season.
These things rarely end well.
And I think the Giants took a half measure in tagging him. In doing so I think they've tipped their hand about their reservations over a market rate contract as well as risked alienating the player and hurting the 2015 season.
These things rarely end well.
Valid points!
AcidTest : 3:16 pm : link : reply
Giants may think he'll lower his contract demands rather than risk playing an entire season with no guaranteed money.
Well, he can step off a curb, once he signs it, because that 15M is guaranteed....
They get, basically, 2 low second round draft picks for him....not a bad deal for a contender....
I'm not sure what the alternative here is. The Giants made the best move at this time. If he walks, the get two #1s.
It's strange- The argument is that we don't know if we'll get sufficient ROI, but somehow the draft/free agency carries no risk? I don't get it.
I'm not sure why anyone here is shocked about any of this.
AcidTest : 3:16 pm : link : reply
Giants may think he'll lower his contract demands rather than risk playing an entire season with no guaranteed money.
Well, he can step off a curb, once he signs it, because that 15M is guaranteed....
Good point. The $15M is guaranteed once he signs it. An injury would hurt his ability to get additional guaranteed money in his next contract, but the entire $15M is guaranteed.
Hey I have no particular dislike for JPP. Just calling it like I see it.
I disagree with the assumption that the Giants used the franchise tag because they were far apart. Past history has shown that the team has been able to come to terms with a player after franchising him so why is this case different?
By the time this gets resolved, all the best players may well be gone. Best case scenario, he gets more realistic sense of his value and signs and Giants may be able to sign something form the leftovers. Worst case scenario - JPP plays one more year limiting their ability to make moves, then walks away next year - impacting two off-seasons of rebuilding. Keeping in mind the shelf life left on Eli.
Not sure there was a good resolution to the JPP issue.
They haven't risked anything about 2015. Not yet, anyway. It's March 2nd.
If they don't sign him to a long term deal and they let him play on the FT? Yep, that could very well be an issue.
But if they sign him to a long term deal, then he'll be all forgiving...
I'm not sure what the alternative here is. The Giants made the best move at this time. If he walks, the get two #1s.
It's strange- The argument is that we don't know if we'll get sufficient ROI, but somehow the draft/free agency carries no risk? I don't get it.
I'm not sure why anyone here is shocked about any of this.
I'm not shocked by any of this, I just think it's a mistake.
And we all know we aren't going to be getting two number ones. Instead we're going to get a potentially unhappy player at a $15 million cap hit in 2015.
And of course any other free agent or draft pick is going to be an unknown quantity to an extent. My point is simply that JPP is as well known a quantity as you can expect to have, and I don't value that quantity the same way the Giants do. Not even close.
Quote:
In comment 12159673 Go Terps said:
Quote:
There are some question marks though that are unavoidable:
- He came in out of shape after his best season
- He's been injury prone
- The defense has been garbage in each of his five pro seasons (this obviously isn't entirely his fault, but we're talking about paying him cornerstone money here)
Be objective. How many times do big guys get more committed (and healthier) once they get the kind of money JPP figures to get in his next contract?
If I'm an Eagle or Cowboy fan this news makes me happy.
Good post Terps.
Do you know (or does anyone else) a team can remove the franchise tag? For instance, let's say they did this to buy time to negotiate a longer deal and couldn't come to an agreement. Can they then take the tag away and let him become a FA?
No.
Yes. If the franchise tag has not yet been signed it can be removed.
Look. I'm going to have an unpopular opinion here but with all of the pro-JPP talk this stuff needs to be said.
1) The guy has a chronic bad back. Are we looking to lock a guy up for one of the richest contracts in NFL history with a known issue?
2) The guy is a little immature (see Prince incident).
3) The guy has in the past reported to camp out of shape. Last year was a CONTRACT year and he still wasn't in the condition he was when he was drafted.
4) The guy is an top end pass rusher when he isn't the focus of an opposing OL and a MEDIOCRE run stuffer. This BS I read about him being so stout against the run like Strahan is BS. PLENTY of times the opponent ran right at him and he got blown off the ball or got lost on a pass rush as the back scooted past him.
5) He had to be taken off the field due to injury at least 6 times last year. Now some times he came back but it's just not a good indication of a reliable sturdy player.
What I am saying is this. He isn't a game changer like Watt or even Suh.
In my opinion, JPP is a slightly above average DE who doesn't excel against stiff competition.
That's why the franchise tag is perfect for him. Yes it's a big hit this year on the cap but he's still young. If he wants it, then let him prove me wrong. If he has 16 sacks and an all pro year then pay the dude. Last year was a chance for him in a contract year to play lights out. He played OK. That's it. OK.
If he wants security this year I offer him a deal like Linval got from the vikes- 6 years 30 million or something along those lines with some of it being incentive based. Take it, or play on the tag.
the injury thing is what concerns me the most. everyone gets hurt in the league, but is this going to be a chronic issue.