Schefter expects Giants to make a run at Ndamukong Suh

I'd wager it's very unlikely Suh is coming here for less than what he expects in terms of market dollars, and 4-3 defenses are built around its DEs.

It's that delirious time of year again.

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if that is their preference as the DL pass-rush is considered the most important right under Qb.

Suh makes great sense to re-establish the dominance of this DL and get us back in the conversation as a championship caliber team.

The cap situation as outlined in prior posts is workable.

We have damn near 85 million to spend next offseason. That and we have to spend money to avoid the fine on that 89% rule which was put in the last CBA

gonna happen - no chance

No, he really hasn't, not even close to what it will take to sign Suh, JPP, and another starting caliber DE this unit badly needs.

Osi,Strahan, Tuck,Kiwi. All had substancial contracts with many playing at the same time.

Giant will spend for the DT if he is viewed as a passrusher.

Joseph, then Austin, then Bromley a few years after drafting Alford, signing Jenkins, Patterson, Shaun Rogers, try Marcus Kuhn, etc

How about solidifying the position and use the picks and FA dollars elsewhere?

but JPP back with Suh immediately makes us into a formidable defense, assuming DRC and Prince are back to 100%. Won't bother getting my hopes up though.

But why go through all this for one player? If we are going to make more cuts, restructure eli why not spend on multiple players like Sheard at de, Paea at dt, Franklin at guard/tackle and of course we need to upgrade at safety as well. It's fun to think of our defense with Suh but it just isn't going to happen.

would be scary. It would be worth all the personal fouls.

In comment 12160713 JonC said:

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No, he really hasn't, not even close to what it will take to sign Suh, JPP, and another starting caliber DE this unit badly needs.

..and in the unlikely event we were able to keep JPP and get Suh that other end spot would probably be a competition between Moore Wynn and Ayers...and maybe a rookie.

before you know it, the combined cap hits for Eli, Suh, and JPP would easily be more than 1/3 of the total cap. And that acceleration would likely be an issue right around the time they need to extend OB and others.

I'll leave it to the capologists.

and that would be sub-optimal, at best.

we need to get at least one safety in FA by hook or by crook, the draft looks pretty poor at that position.

And ideally it would be prudent to get some oline FA help at either T or LG.

Don't see how that would be possible after signing Suh, even if Eli and Prince is extended and Beason is cut or takes a pay cut.

FA should ideally open up flexibility in the draft so you're not reaching to fill gaps. Even the premium draft picks (round 1 and round 2) can take time to acclimatise to the NFL.

Yup, multiple needs and we've seen in recent seasons there's a cost to be paid during the season when your (crap) depth players must play due to injuries.

Even without signing Suh, they're going to be bargain hunting to fill out the roster.

In comment 12160775 JonC said:

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and that would be sub-optimal, at best.

It would leave our ability to rush off the edge still suspect unless we knock it out of the park with a draft pick. I'm sure Spags will come up with some pressure and we would get pressure up the middle but that other end worries me still.

Don't do it!

Don't do it!

Don't do it!

Don't do it!

Don't do it!

Don't do it!

Don't do it!

Don't do it!

Really?

However Schefter who usually is one of the most tuned in analysts out there seems to think we have an interest.

It isn't only about DEs. While DE is generally the most conventional position to generate a pass rush from, Giants are looking for and are willing to pay a premium for other positions they think they can generate a pass rush from.

It isn't like the pattern isn't there. Between the big $$$ NYG gave Canty, the run we made at Haynseworth (both primarily DT's). The Giants were even ready to give essentially a non-descript player in O'Brien Schofield 8 mill last year.

The incessant comments about how important pass rush is and how Reese even said we want to send 'a pass-rush in waves', 'you can never have too many pass rushers' etc.

Right or wrong, Giants crave pass rush and will be highly aggressive in pursuing it moreso than any other position. Again, The cap situation isn't as bleak as it seems as outlined in previous posts above.

Does this guarantee we get Suh? Absolutely not. But I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Schefter was onto something here.

In comment 12160785 Doomster said:

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Don't do it! Don't do it! Don't do it! Don't do it! Don't do it! Don't do it! Don't do it! Don't do it!

In case you needed proof this is the correct move.

In comment 12160761 jayg5 said:

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But why go through all this for one player? If we are going to make more cuts, restructure eli why not spend on multiple players like Sheard at de, Paea at dt, Franklin at guard/tackle and of course we need to upgrade at safety as well. It's fun to think of our defense with Suh but it just isn't going to happen.

You make a valid point yet isn't this a make it or break it year for Coughlin and company? Not sure a little tinkering here or there is enough if you want to win next year. Without Beckham, this might be a 3 win roster. This roster stinks and it's the result of too many poor drafts and holding onto vets (Diehl, Snee, etc) too long.

The Giants cap position for beyond 2015 is great b/c nobody commands too many dollars b/c they aren't that good.

B.T.W. - Paea is terrible against the run. Like Joh Jerry, he's good at one thing and miserable at another.

Not sure if Suh is or is not the answer but, IMO, considering all the draft picks and FA signing allocated towards the DT position, it's amazing they're still looking for a solution.

Saying the roster stinks is a little extreme. With JPP in the fold, Pieces at some of the most critical positions are here. Is this roster that far off from 2011? With a good FA and draft, it likely won't be far off.

and have multiple needs to address in free agency. Suh is a pipedream. Jerry Reese calling his agent to inquire about a price isn't 'pursuing' someone. It's due diligence. Longshot at best.

is phenomenal!

killer...

I'd even go out on a limb and say it would give Rolle pause on staying around for the run vs his last "payday".

It could be done but the tier-2 FA OL pickup and OL picks in the draft would have to be on point, I'd wager rds 2 and or 3. Rd 1 would more than likely be a playmaker then unless the #1 OT is still available.

Though we could spend "big" on FA OLs ... not a bad crop this year...

is the big push the team made for Haynesworth when he hit FA. The giants need DL and a line of JPP/Suh/Hank/Moore would be pretty great.

He's a shithead who is hard to root for, but so was Haynesworth.

In comment 12160889 Torrag said:

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and have multiple needs to address in free agency. Suh is a pipedream. Jerry Reese calling his agent to inquire about a price isn't 'pursuing' someone. It's due diligence. Longshot at best.

Sigh.

Our cap room is fluid and can drastically change day to day with any given move.

or who would play around him. My concern in a cap league is tying up such a large percentage of the cap in just a few players. Suh will get paid like a franchise QB and the Giants already have that cap hit. If either of them misses significant time you're screwed because so much of the roster of the roster will be vet minimum guys and rookies. I don't like the odds of tying up that much money in just a few players.

apparently haven't watched the NFL since 1986.

The difference between 6 wins and 10 wins is a few plays.

Relax.

Sure we can re-structure Eli and others to make room. Suh is going to command $9-10m minimum - imo that's a conservative estimate. We have needs at OG/S/DT/DE/RB/CB. The draft can supply some answers but free agency is going to have to fill a few holes. Do the math...

yep.

In comment 12160835 Coach Mason said:

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Saying the roster stinks is a little extreme. With JPP in the fold, Pieces at some of the most critical positions are here. Is this roster that far off from 2011? With a good FA and draft, it likely won't be far off.

Ask yourself, without Beckham how many wins does this team have?

In 2013, didn't the Packers without Rodgers, the QBless Vikings, Redskins twice, etc contribute to 7 wins?

The Giants have almost the most cap dollars available in the entire league for 2016. Why do you think that is? It's b/c not too many draft picks made it and are up for raises.

Look at the roster

A QB
Journeymen HB's a a few inexpensive draft picks
WR - a great talent, an inconsistent talent and talent on IR
TE - none command dollars or block
OL - a mediocre LT, a journeyman LG, a new center, cheap guard, inexpensive young RT
DL - JPP stud, Hankins good player and question marks
LB - young Kennard and question marks. Actually, more problems than solutions
CB - two nice corners
S - some youngsters with the jury still out

Without Beckham they're likely picking #1 overall. They won only 13 games in two years and beat some really bad teams along the way.

Jennings got dinged up ... but he did well when he played and the O was smoother... Make the OL better he gets better Williams gets better .... that 3rd speedy RB can be had for cheap. The real question in FA is DL or OL with S has a dark horse.

i don't see how this is viable but leave to the capologists. But with the amount of solid depth we need, I do not see how we can sign a guy like Suh not with the money that JPP is costing. I don't know how we can competitively field solid depth on the roster and have such a top heavy salary distribution. The math at a high level does not seem to work.

Plus you are basically saying Hankins is on a one and done contract with us. So should we start the future thread of bitching that we let another high draft DT pick go after first contract?

In comment 12160948 MotownGIANTS said:

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Jennings got dinged up ... but he did well when he played and the O was smoother... Make the OL better he gets better Williams gets better .... that 3rd speedy RB can be had for cheap. The real question in FA is DL or OL with S has a dark horse.

We ABSOLUTELY have a need at RB. Jennings can't be counted on and lets be honest, until Williams shows some vision and an ability to find open space outside of the blocking scheme, he's a below average running back.

In comment 12160927 Torrag said:

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Sure we can re-structure Eli and others to make room. Suh is going to command $9-10m minimum - imo that's a conservative estimate. We have needs at OG/S/DT/DE/RB/CB. The draft can supply some answers but free agency is going to have to fill a few holes. Do the math...

Extending Eli is basically a given, as is restructuring Beason and Weatherford, and potentially extending Prince. That could free up a chunk of change, but personally while I see the attraction in pumping up the run D and interior pass rush, I think you'd get more of an overall return from signing a combination of the following.

Robbins/Langford
McCourty/Searcy
Franklin/Iupati

as it would allow you to the freedom to pick the best player available in the draft. It's critical we get a safety in FA or the draft (perhaps two if Rolle goes), it's also critical we get a swing tackle and a guard

If signing Suh is possible then fine, but I don't see how it is without hamstring our ability to get in role players in FA leading us to have to overreach in the draft for specific positions. We're more than DT away, regardless of his talent.

Warning: I am not a capologist, so please chime in if the numbers are off a bit. This is for a rough idea only.



Cap hits for top 5 DL in 2011 (2007 may have been higher but couldn't find the cap #'s):

Canty 7.2m
Tuck 5.1m
JPP 4.7m
Osi 3.625m
Kiwi 2.8m

Total 24.425m ($120 cap for 2011 24.425/120= 20.3% cap resources dedicated to DL)


Cap hits for top 5 DL in 2011:
JPP 14.7m
Suh 9m (.5m+ amortized garanteed 8.5m)
Hankins 1.1m
Moore .75m
Ayers 2.47m
Jenkins 2.1m

Total 30.12m ($143 cap for 2015 30.12/143= 21% cap resources dedicated to DL)

Accounting for 20% increase in cap ($143 vs $120), Giants would be extremely close to the allocation percentage in 2011.

As far as having the space to do it, I have listed examples in previous posts of how NYG could sign Suh and still conceivably have room for other mid-level free agents.

.

that's instructive but the part that worries me is finding space to resign Hankins after his rookie contract. Those JPP & Suh cap hits would only increase as their annual salaries rise, squeezing the cap.

As a 2015 snapshot, it looks feasible. Later on - in 2017 &18 - it's risky.

talent. Defensive Linemen of this calibre in their prime almost never hit free agency.

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Giants have to be looking at it just like every other team.

And like we know - he wants to play here because he knows he can make tons of extra $$$. Huge, huge advantage. JPP and Suh on the same Defensive Line = top 5 defense. If Moore or somebody else steps up skies the limit

In comment 12161018 BeerFridge said:

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I think the $8.5mm amortization of the upfront bonus is a good estimate. $52mm/6 = $8.5mm.

Tying up that much money in Suh on top of JPP and Eli may not be a smart move but some of you either don't understand the Giants cap situation or are being willfully ignorant to support your own arguments .

The Giants will will have more to spend this year than you would have us believe. We have a ton of space next year with an ever ballooning cap. Creative structuring will get us what we need.

We can have Suh but that doesn't mean it is a smart move to give him a huge contract

In comment 12161018 BeerFridge said:

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.

Posted it above but will re-state it here for ease of reading:

Regarding Suh's potential contract , if you take something close to Watts contract, Let's say 6 year 100 mill with 50 guaranteed.

Amortize the guaranteed money over the life of the contract.

So if you make year 1 a low salary of 500K: year 1's cap hit would be 50MM/6 + 500K or a little under 9 million for year 1.

Add in an Eli restructure, Beason restructure, and other possibilities like Prince signed long-term with any other incoming FA's obviously on much smaller deals (with cap friendly first years) it may be doable even without JPP signing longterm.

For additional perspective, Schwartz signed for 4yr/ 16mill w/5.7 mill guaranteed

Let's say Orlando Franklin would sign for around 5yr/25mill with 10 guaranteed

Year 1 salary: 500K + 2 mill (amortized gauranteed salary)= 2.5 mill cap hit in 2015

Safety like Parker or Searcy at around the same dollars and similar 2.5 mill year 1 cap hit , etc. You get the idea.

Giants can still get a few mid-level decent starters in addition to Suh and not necessarily Charles Brown level back ups.

Thanks Coach Mason

In comment 12161032 LakeGeorgeGiant said:

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Tying up that much money in Suh on top of JPP and Eli may not be a smart move but some of you either don't understand the Giants cap situation or are being willfully ignorant to support your own arguments . The Giants will will have more to spend this year than you would have us believe. We have a ton of space next year with an ever ballooning cap. Creative structuring will get us what we need. We can have Suh but that doesn't mean it is a smart move to give him a huge contract

Debating 'smart' or ideal cap allocation percentages for each unit is another argument onto itself. However I think it's clear the Giants are willing to allocate a large percentage to the DL.

I believe if it was that easy then everyone would do that every year or two. Also a few of those contract numbers seemed low for guys who will have a lot of teams completing for their services...

In comment 12161024 area junc said:

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talent. Defensive Linemen of this calibre in their prime almost never hit free agency. This is a once in a lifetime opportunity. Giants have to be looking at it just like every other team. And like we know - he wants to play here because he knows he can make tons of extra $$$. Huge, huge advantage. JPP and Suh on the same Defensive Line = top 5 defense. If Moore or somebody else steps up skies the limit

I tend to agree with most of Reese's philosophies regarding team construction except perhaps for his propensity to take on injury risks.

With that said, if we were somehow able to land Suh, a line of JPP,Suh,Hankins and just about any DE on the other side that was simply sound in their run/pass responsibilities would be a ferocious front. Ayers/Moore(in pass situations)/Wynn would likely be suffice.

Plus, I personally believe Moore takes a big jump under Steve and potentially a more player friendly system.

The main point I wanted to make was that the assumption that signing Suh would mean we couldn't address other positions due to cap space was incorrect. I think you did a better job explaining. that than I could have.

it would take to sign Suh?
I would go after Suh and sell him on the virtues of being the guy on this defense in this market ala Strahan and if the money is reasonable, then let's do that cause let's face it, he's a need against that Dallas Oline. However if we strike out, Dockett would be a great fall back option.

In comment 12161048 Semipro Lineman said:

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I believe if it was that easy then everyone would do that every year or two. Also a few of those contract numbers seemed low for guys who will have a lot of teams completing for their services...

Semi, I don't pretend to be a capologist or have intimate knowledge of the upcoming climate of free agency.
You could be right.

However, Schwartz who was probably the top OG on the market last year 'only' got 4yrs/16.

5/25 w/10 guaranteed for Franklin or maybe Derek Newton (who is less heralded but a character guy ,hard worker , great in pass pro last year and just smells like a Reese-type target) could be had for that or less.