Isn't smart cap management. And the Giants have a few young DLs that have upside as well. It's not like the cupboards bare. I think this is a lot of smoke to distract from the OLs and safety they really need.
and JPP, draft an edge rusher at #9 (if you're sold), and the defense is significantly reloaded at its core. Do it.
John, I like it!
I do want to ask you though, what is your plan for the Oline? If they tie their $$ up in Suh, and 1st round pick on DE/OLB....how does the Oline get better quickly?
he'll realize that he can make more $$ in the New York market on marketing and endorsements, more so than any other city. If he truly wants to play in New York, he would be wise to take a lesser contract from the Giants for the sake of the big picture and making more $$ down the road....alot more $$.
take the safety with the 9th pick then the Giants need a major revamping in the scouting dept. There is no way that safety is worth the 9th pick in the draft.
that a strong DL will compensate for a lot of other issues on D.
With a healthy DRC and Prince at the corners, JPP, Hankins, and Suh anchoring the line, Kennard showing potential the D can go from an Achilles heel to a strength pretty quickly.
If you look at the way it is structured, there was a minimal cap hit in year 1. The biggest cap hit is in year 2 (this year), which the Texans likely planned b/c they were forecasted to have enough cap space this year to absorb it. After year 2, the texans actually recover cap room if they need to cut Watt. The point is that contracts can be structured in a way that spreads the cap hit in team "friendly" way.
There is no doubt that large contracts can be a burden, but if the team plans well and the player gives at least 2-3 years of good performance, then it can be worth it. A large portion of these mega-contracts can be avoided by cutting the player in the tail end of their deal.
the flip side... Giants will ask, but their chances at Ndamukong Suh are not realistic - ( New Window )
Graziano seems "off" in that article. He suggested cutting McBride as a way to have more cap money available? His salary is a measly $1 mill for 2015.
He also suggested Giants are "inclined" to let Manning play out his deal? Really?
Graziano isn't the only one to suggest that, though we've had asshattery suggesting otherwise.
Frankly, extending him should only be a last resort, if you take sentiment out of it, given how likely this is to be the last year for TC and what a new regime may want/deserve in terms of building their own era.
I expect their OL plan will be much lighter than most fans hope ... I think they look at FA RT, kick Pugh inside and that's it. Or, they draft Scherff at #9 and they're done.
Beyond that, perhaps an interior prospect in a later round. I don't expect much more.
the flip side... Giants will ask, but their chances at Ndamukong Suh are not realistic - ( New Window )
Graziano seems "off" in that article. He suggested cutting McBride as a way to have more cap money available? His salary is a measly $1 mill for 2015.
He also suggested Giants are "inclined" to let Manning play out his deal? Really?
I stopped reading Graziano about a month ago. Who are his sources that suggests he knows what the Gmen are planning during free agency? He likes to stir the pot with his comments and suggestions about what HE thinks the Gmen will do. He is a tough read.
I think #9 is way too early for the S, don't love him. Against top college competition he often disappeared.
There is nothing about L Collins that stood out to me on film. He'll be a solid pro, but he is no Earl Thomas...nor even Donte Whitner to whom he's been compared
the flip side... Giants will ask, but their chances at Ndamukong Suh are not realistic - ( New Window )
Graziano seems "off" in that article. He suggested cutting McBride as a way to have more cap money available? His salary is a measly $1 mill for 2015.
He also suggested Giants are "inclined" to let Manning play out his deal? Really?
Graziano isn't the only one to suggest that, though we've had asshattery suggesting otherwise.
Frankly, extending him should only be a last resort, if you take sentiment out of it, given how likely this is to be the last year for TC and what a new regime may want/deserve in terms of building their own era.
Extending Eli should be done if and when it's deemed needed to be done. Not because 'it's likely this is to be the last year for TC' or because whatever new regime that's brought in will want or deserve. I disagree with that statement as well as this one from your earlier post:
Quote:
He's a great player, but it's the type of move a team in a closer situation should make.
The reason why we'd sign him is so that (theoretically) we'd become one of those teams that would be in a 'closer situation'.
and be completely handcuffed with the cap, Eli can stay on his back all day and we can have no running game to speak of...again. May as well release Manning maybe, go full defense and play Nassib who can at least run away from pressure.
I am partly in jest, signing Suh would be great but doing that and paying JPP that franchise number which personally I hate, and putting our #1 pick on D in this draft seems over the top.
If we manage to get Suh (in some way). Outside of Beasley, I hope we go with any of the aforementioned OL in round 1.
Fears over tying up a significant portion of the cap in two or three players aren't really all that well grounded in the case of Suh. He is one of the best players in the league regardless of position. I'd argue it's riskier to invest what we're already investing in JPP in 2015. That's not a move I would have made.
But being that JPP is going to be here, it only makes signing Suh more sensible. Dominant units win games more than teams that spread out their resources evenly, IMO. And if we're trying to win like we did twice before, the model then was great QB play and pass rush.
Signing Suh likely has a greater positive impact on this team than any combination of three or four free agents is likely to. We've just got to be willing to go very young and cheap in some other areas.
there's actually very little chance NYG signs Suh.
I agree 100%, seems far-fetched in almost every way.
Do you not think OL at #9, I am leaning that way. I don't think Cooper will be there. I hope we do not reach for a pass rusher. Would rather just get someone who is a lock at G or center.
the flip side... Giants will ask, but their chances at Ndamukong Suh are not realistic - ( New Window )
Graziano seems "off" in that article. He suggested cutting McBride as a way to have more cap money available? His salary is a measly $1 mill for 2015.
He also suggested Giants are "inclined" to let Manning play out his deal? Really?
Graziano isn't the only one to suggest that, though we've had asshattery suggesting otherwise.
Frankly, extending him should only be a last resort, if you take sentiment out of it, given how likely this is to be the last year for TC and what a new regime may want/deserve in terms of building their own era.
Extending Eli should be done if and when it's deemed needed to be done.. Not because 'it's likely this is to be the last year for TC' or because whatever new regime that's brought in will want or deserve. I disagree with that statement as well as this one from your earlier
What the hell does that even mean?
Giving a huge extension to an aging good but very much flawed QB on the cusp of likely have a major organizational turnover should be an absolute last resort for any team. A team in the Giants' shoes can't just be looking at this season or even this staff when it comes to making moves that important.
If they absolutely couldn't avoid it, fine, but they can -- no realistic move or moves this offseason that would require it is going to make this team a serious contender and "finish" the rebuild.
for 5 more years. There has not been a single decline in any of his physical attributes.
And do you mention is every post that Eli is flawed. I am trying to think of 1 QB who isnt flawed. I mean we understand you dont view him highly, but there are only a handful of QBs who are better than him. And those QBs do not include the likes of Ryan, Rivers, Stafford, and any other mediocre QB that gets blown by the media.
More than you might think, and enough that if they did get him there'd be a serious financial commitment made. I just don't think they'll be able to come up with enough money to make Suh go for it. Someone like Oakland will throw him an obscene amount of money (too much, really) and he'll go there.
This is about contracts and organizational turnover, dep.
I don't think they should be jumping to extend Prince either to make cap room, if they can avoid doing it, though it wouldn't be as potentially harmful
They have to try and build the best team they can for 2015, but they have to be even more geared to the future beyond. They've already clung to the past with enough players, moves and perhaps with TC in general that they've stuck themselves in this bad team middle ground, where they're not terrible enough to allow the burn down just yet, but not good enough it likely to get good enough to actually matter.
Fears over tying up a significant portion of the cap in two or three players aren't really all that well grounded ...
i don't like top heavy cap tables on the team. Afterall, no matter the player, every player's ACLs (or in our case Patella tendons) have inherently the same value.
$10 million under the cap this year is the least of the Giants worries.
They can easily structure the contract with full guarantees and roster bonuses in year 2-4 to dance around the year 1 number. The Giants are in great shape going forward even when Eli and JPP get their new deals. They don't have big money tied up in any other players like they did in 2008-2011. Players like Cruz, DRC, in 2-3 years unfortunately will probably become expendable. We can't extend for OBJ until after two more NFL full seasons either.
With regard to being out-bid, the Giants typically have a price and stick to it when going after free agents. Most of that falls within a framework to not exceed the best players on the rosters current contract.
That won't be the case with Suh as he would easily become our best player outside Eli so they can justify paying him as such. Those players don't come along very often.
With all that being said, I still believe it's a longshot.
Will make an interesting next week. Hopefully we get some asshats to make especially interesting.
RE: This is about contracts and organizational turnover, dep.
I don't think they should be jumping to extend Prince either to make cap room, if they can avoid doing it, though it wouldn't be as potentially harmful
They have to try and build the best team they can for 2015, but they have to be even more geared to the future beyond. They've already clung to the past with enough players, moves and perhaps with TC in general that they've stuck themselves in this bad team middle ground, where they're not terrible enough to allow the burn down just yet, but not good enough it likely to get good enough to actually matter.
I think we are closer to a playoff team than most others think.
the flip side... Giants will ask, but their chances at Ndamukong Suh are not realistic - ( New Window )
Graziano seems "off" in that article. He suggested cutting McBride as a way to have more cap money available? His salary is a measly $1 mill for 2015.
He also suggested Giants are "inclined" to let Manning play out his deal? Really?
Graziano isn't the only one to suggest that, though we've had asshattery suggesting otherwise.
Frankly, extending him should only be a last resort, if you take sentiment out of it, given how likely this is to be the last year for TC and what a new regime may want/deserve in terms of building their own era.
Extending Eli should be done if and when it's deemed needed to be done.. Not because 'it's likely this is to be the last year for TC' or because whatever new regime that's brought in will want or deserve. I disagree with that statement as well as this one from your earlier
What the hell does that even mean?
Giving a huge extension to an aging good but very much flawed QB on the cusp of likely have a major organizational turnover should be an absolute last resort for any team. A team in the Giants' shoes can't just be looking at this season or even this staff when it comes to making moves that important.
If they absolutely couldn't avoid it, fine, but they can -- no realistic move or moves this offseason that would require it is going to make this team a serious contender and "finish" the rebuild.
It means that is should be done if they deem it necessary to improve the team. Not because of making future plans on if Coughlin is here or not after the season... and signing a player of Suh's caliber would/could go a long way into helping the current coach stay awhile longer. Not to mention this 'very much flawed QB' somehow has managed to flaw his way to 2 Super Bowl titles and MVPs. You're acting like the guy is like McNabb and his running ability plays a big part in his on-field success and throwing from the pocket is where he struggles when it's very much so the opposite. As someone said while I was away, Eli has probably at least another 4 to 5 years in him.
You obviously think this team is MUCH farther away from title contention than I think it is and that's cool. But Eli, despite what you think, is still very much a franchise QB who, unless the unthinkable happens, will be here for a while longer.
RE: This is about contracts and organizational turnover, dep.
I don't think they should be jumping to extend Prince either to make cap room, if they can avoid doing it, though it wouldn't be as potentially harmful
They have to try and build the best team they can for 2015, but they have to be even more geared to the future beyond. They've already clung to the past with enough players, moves and perhaps with TC in general that they've stuck themselves in this bad team middle ground, where they're not terrible enough to allow the burn down just yet, but not good enough it likely to get good enough to actually matter.
I don't understand why it's so important to NOT extend some of our better players to you. I disagree that they need to be 'more geared' to the future. Why? 2015 should be their main focus, with an eye towards the future. Who knows what 2015 holds for the team... forgetting about 2016 and beyond!
Things change so quickly in the NFL that ignoring what's going on NOW in order to plan for the future is silly.
If the team stinks and Coughlin is fired and a new regime brought in, are you going to be happy about it? I know I won't. So we should plan on that happening just in case?
RE: RE: There is nothing wrong with paying for quality
Fears over tying up a significant portion of the cap in two or three players aren't really all that well grounded ...
i don't like top heavy cap tables on the team. Afterall, no matter the player, every player's ACLs (or in our case Patella tendons) have inherently the same value.
As long as Eli Manning is the quarterback, that is the model with which this team is constructed. After he's gone I'd be all for going cheap at the position with a plug and play guy who is fairly easily replaced like Seattle does, but for now this is what the team is. In our model, one Suh is worth more than three mid-sized level free agents that probably won't bring back much more value than as late round pick or UDFA.
The Giants won their Super bowls due in large part to a dominating defense. Want to be feared in the league and have the best chance possible to make it to the Super Bowl, you need to have a dominant, fearsome defense. The Seahawks have made it to two Super bowls with a dominating defense and a solid run game.
Suh gives us that swagger. No one is going to run on Hankins and Suh. They push the pocket back into the QBs face and allow the edge rushers to terrorize the opposing QBs. Stop the run, and make the opposing team gain first downs and force a lot of third and tens. Our rushers can pin their ears back and force more turnovers that way. Adding Suh can have a snowball effect.
Think about it. Turnovers above all else equate to the highest percentage of wins. Now there are other DTs who can stop the run, but no one is available who can stop the run and push the pocket like Suh. We can't acquire multiple FAs and fix the defense like this one player can do for us. HE IS WORTH THE MONEY. HE IS WORTH MULTIPLE MORE AFFORDABLE FAs.
Turn us into the most dominating defense with one acquistion and all we need to do is get a solid run game. we do that by shoring up the weak link in the offensive line and by obtaining a pass receiving back ala Reggie Bush, Darren Sproles type whether by draft, free agency, or trade.
We are not years away from the Super bowl. Grab Suh and it is very much within our grasp immediately. Sure, we also have other needs and weaknesses, what team doesn't? We don't need to be outstanding in the secondary, just adequate if we have the most dangerous DL in the league. Surely, we can produce an acceptable secondary through FA and the draft and with a little bit of luck, maybe our injured dbs surprise this year as well.
the flip side... Giants will ask, but their chances at Ndamukong Suh are not realistic - ( New Window )
Graziano seems "off" in that article. He suggested cutting McBride as a way to have more cap money available? His salary is a measly $1 mill for 2015.
He also suggested Giants are "inclined" to let Manning play out his deal? Really?
Graziano isn't the only one to suggest that, though we've had asshattery suggesting otherwise.
Frankly, extending him should only be a last resort, if you take sentiment out of it, given how likely this is to be the last year for TC and what a new regime may want/deserve in terms of building their own era.
Extending Eli should be done if and when it's deemed needed to be done.. Not because 'it's likely this is to be the last year for TC' or because whatever new regime that's brought in will want or deserve. I disagree with that statement as well as this one from your earlier
What the hell does that even mean?
Giving a huge extension to an aging good but very much flawed QB on the cusp of likely have a major organizational turnover should be an absolute last resort for any team. A team in the Giants' shoes can't just be looking at this season or even this staff when it comes to making moves that important.
If they absolutely couldn't avoid it, fine, but they can -- no realistic move or moves this offseason that would require it is going to make this team a serious contender and "finish" the rebuild.
It means that is should be done if they deem it necessary to improve the team. Not because of making future plans on if Coughlin is here or not after the season... and signing a player of Suh's caliber would/could go a long way into helping the current coach stay awhile longer. Not to mention this 'very much flawed QB' somehow has managed to flaw his way to 2 Super Bowl titles and MVPs. You're acting like the guy is like McNabb and his running ability plays a big part in his on-field success and throwing from the pocket is where he struggles when it's very much so the opposite. As someone said while I was away, Eli has probably at least another 4 to 5 years in him.
You obviously think this team is MUCH farther away from title contention than I think it is and that's cool. But Eli, despite what you think, is still very much a franchise QB who, unless the unthinkable happens, will be here for a while longer.
Boneman, this is just Riggies(Devon) being Riggies..I love him, but he hasn't had anything positive to say about the Giants(in the main) for years now..
I'm certainly more aligned with your mindset here
RE: RE: This is about contracts and organizational turnover, dep.
I don't think they should be jumping to extend Prince either to make cap room, if they can avoid doing it, though it wouldn't be as potentially harmful
They have to try and build the best team they can for 2015, but they have to be even more geared to the future beyond. They've already clung to the past with enough players, moves and perhaps with TC in general that they've stuck themselves in this bad team middle ground, where they're not terrible enough to allow the burn down just yet, but not good enough it likely to get good enough to actually matter.
I don't understand why it's so important to NOT extend some of our better players to you. I disagree that they need to be 'more geared' to the future. Why? 2015 should be their main focus, with an eye towards the future. Who knows what 2015 holds for the team... forgetting about 2016 and beyond!
Things change so quickly in the NFL that ignoring what's going on NOW in order to plan for the future is silly.
If the team stinks and Coughlin is fired and a new regime brought in, are you going to be happy about it? I know I won't. So we should plan on that happening just in case?
What's going on now is that the team stinks and it's been rotting for a long time at this point, even before a team that gave up more points than they scored won a SB. Just like nothing they were going to do last offseason was going to make them a contender, nothing is going to do that this offseason either.
They're in the awkward middle of a rebuild that is snail paced because they've been trying (and usually failing) to compete through it. Not keeping an even stronger eye beyond this year than usual, given the massive upheaval that everyone involved seems to know is lurking, is foolish. If an extension to Eli or Prince or whoever was absolutely necessary to get under the cap just to field a team or something of that sort, that would be fine, they'd have to do it, but it's not. They can't sign Suh, but they'll have enough to make some moves and keep it moving, probably not being that primed in 2015, but likely at least a little better than 2014 (just like they were a bit better in 2014 than 2013, even if the record didn't show it).
who seriously doubt Suh is signed, but not for a lack of interest, and not because I think we don't have money for a JJ Watt type contract.
I think that Suh will end up signing a contract significantly LARGER than Watt's. I think he's looking at at least $60MM guaranteed, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a $120MM contract.
One thing that hasn't really mentioned about the cap is the effect the increase in cap space is obviously going to have on salaries. With the labor agreement in place for some time I think agents realize that the cap will be increasing regularly until the next labor agreement. This means salary inflation. This year's cap was expected to be 138MM and came in at 143MM. Next year's cap is projected to be even higher. That's an increase of almost 20% from where it was just 15 months ago, with anticipation that it can grow beyond 150MM next year. Expect a nearly 20% increase in top salaries going forward, maybe even more.
Another thing that seems to be overlooked in the discussion of whether the Giants should sign Suh is how he could make our team more physical. I'm not talking about how he is a physical player himself - that's been talked about a lot. What I think is overlooked is the need this team has for an intimidating leader. Someone who inspires the rest of the team to play physical and who isn't afraid to mix things up.
We really lost a lot when Seubert, McKenzie, and Jacobs left. Those guys made our team very different physically and we don't really have that intimidator any more.
RE: RE: RE: This is about contracts and organizational turnover, dep.
I don't think they should be jumping to extend Prince either to make cap room, if they can avoid doing it, though it wouldn't be as potentially harmful
They have to try and build the best team they can for 2015, but they have to be even more geared to the future beyond. They've already clung to the past with enough players, moves and perhaps with TC in general that they've stuck themselves in this bad team middle ground, where they're not terrible enough to allow the burn down just yet, but not good enough it likely to get good enough to actually matter.
I don't understand why it's so important to NOT extend some of our better players to you. I disagree that they need to be 'more geared' to the future. Why? 2015 should be their main focus, with an eye towards the future. Who knows what 2015 holds for the team... forgetting about 2016 and beyond!
Things change so quickly in the NFL that ignoring what's going on NOW in order to plan for the future is silly.
If the team stinks and Coughlin is fired and a new regime brought in, are you going to be happy about it? I know I won't. So we should plan on that happening just in case?
What's going on now is that the team stinks and it's been rotting for a long time at this point, even before a team that gave up more points than they scored won a SB. Just like nothing they were going to do last offseason was going to make them a contender, nothing is going to do that this offseason either.
They're in the awkward middle of a rebuild that is snail paced because they've been trying (and usually failing) to compete through it. Not keeping an even stronger eye beyond this year than usual, given the massive upheaval that everyone involved seems to know is lurking, is foolish. If an extension to Eli or Prince or whoever was absolutely necessary to get under the cap just to field a team or something of that sort, that would be fine, they'd have to do it, but it's not. They can't sign Suh, but they'll have enough to make some moves and keep it moving, probably not being that primed in 2015, but likely at least a little better than 2014 (just like they were a bit better in 2014 than 2013, even if the record didn't show it).
Wow. I'm beginning to get depressed just reading your posts. I don't care if the team gave up 100+ points more than they scored as long as they win the Super Bowl. I mean... who even thinks of stuff like that? What da hell does that even matter?!
Quote:
They're in the awkward middle of a rebuild that is snail paced because they've been trying (and usually failing) to compete through it.
So allowing the team to just go down in flames makes sense to you? Instead of trying to rebuild and stay competitive and hope we get a lil luck along with the way (especially when it comes to injuries), the team should just burn the whole thing down so that we're 2-14? THAT'S your suggestion?! And that's helping what exactly? Get a better coach? Name ONE (that will be available) that's better than a two time Super Bowl winning coach (who's beat the only coach that most would say is better than him twice in the big game by the way)?
So, if what I'm reading your saying is correct, even if the team crashes and burns to a 2-14 record and Coughlin is fired, you don't think the next coach will want Eli Manning as his QB? You don't think the next coach will want Prince as a starting CB? No matter what the future MAY hold, you don't let good players leave if you can keep them.
I also doubt very much that we'll be able to sign Suh.
But you can be damn sure I'm hoping we do!
Same here. I just don't see it happening salary cap wise. Suh would bring a instant toughness to this defense. Maybe that is what this team, organization, and fan base needs.
Let's thank God we don't ever have to go through any nonsense like that. That's just way too demoralizing wasting years hoping for the chance to become a contender. I want to be part of a team that is bold enough to go for the gusto! Did you all enjoy when the Yankees boldly went for the gold and grabbed what they wanted or do you enjoy their more timid approach these days?
If the Giant personnel dept believes Suh is the player they believe he is, then pay the man and go for the gold! No more pussy footing around.
shouldnt even be an option hes gonna get a $100 million deal, you know how many guys you can bring in for that.plus the 14 mil JPP is set to make. thatll be nearly 30 mill in two dlinemen.... Hes a low character guy as well, always getting in trouble/fined. Too expensive. Hes an outstanding DT and will make whatever team signs him better but then your gonna have to get cheaper less talented guuys to fill the roster....thats gone real well for the past few years.
DONT FUCKING DO IT
that every great team, or defense, "needs" two-three truly great players. Lets just say that in order for any unit to reach great heights the easiest way to reach those heights is to plant two great talents in there and fill in the rest of the unit with adequate talents that can do their job and hold things together.
I believe that more often than not, every unit needs a certain amount of elite star power in order to succeed. Field tilting players make the difference. There are exceptions, the no name defense in Miami but it's probably tougher to actually field a unit that has 11 good to very good players and no real weak spots rather than field the unit that has 2-3 elite players and 3-4 good players with 2-3 guys that are average or worse.
If you think the defensive unit needs another truly elite talent, and I think we all do, go out and get him. If I am Reese I am asking myself how many times does a guy like Suh spring free? How many chances will I have to sign this kind of talent without giving up anything other than cap space? If I can get this guy won't he add a much needed element of talent and "dog" to a unit that is sorely in need of both attributes?
Whether you think this team is 1-2-3 years away, signing a guy like Suh gets the Giants closer to the ultimate goal and that goal is to fucking win. Shut the hell up with this 3 year crap. That line of thinking doesn't exist let alone exist in NY with a team that has a HOF QB in the 2nd half of his career. You build a team that can win.
This team was short on star power in 2013 and up until Beckham came around was short on star power in 2014. Star power wins NFL games. Star power wins super bowls. Depth can be found. Guys like Suh come along once a decade and good luck drafting that dude...
We need guys that tilt the field in our favor. Suh does that.
It makes no sense to sign an asshole like suh to clog up the middle and not be able to afford anyone to seal the edge. The 2014 season proved to me that JPP is not the answer. There were times in 2014 that his lack of ability to seal the edge was pitiful. At 9 take a run stuffer like Shelton and sign Osi or someone else to play DE. Next year draft or sign a stud DE. Do NOT waste millions on JPP. He is onlt a standout against inferior teams.
Either that, or the Alabama safety at 9 wouldn't be bad either.
John, I like it!
I do want to ask you though, what is your plan for the Oline? If they tie their $$ up in Suh, and 1st round pick on DE/OLB....how does the Oline get better quickly?
Giants will ask, but their chances at Ndamukong Suh are not realistic - ( New Window )
With a healthy DRC and Prince at the corners, JPP, Hankins, and Suh anchoring the line, Kennard showing potential the D can go from an Achilles heel to a strength pretty quickly.
He's a great player, but it's the type of move a team in a closer situation should make. Not this one.
Huge run stuffer...can push the pocket.
The NFL is one sport where you can see quick turnaround if you have a solid QB and some core talent. And the Giants have both.
Graziano seems "off" in that article. He suggested cutting McBride as a way to have more cap money available? His salary is a measly $1 mill for 2015.
He also suggested Giants are "inclined" to let Manning play out his deal? Really?
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/j.j.-watt/
If you look at the way it is structured, there was a minimal cap hit in year 1. The biggest cap hit is in year 2 (this year), which the Texans likely planned b/c they were forecasted to have enough cap space this year to absorb it. After year 2, the texans actually recover cap room if they need to cut Watt. The point is that contracts can be structured in a way that spreads the cap hit in team "friendly" way.
There is no doubt that large contracts can be a burden, but if the team plans well and the player gives at least 2-3 years of good performance, then it can be worth it. A large portion of these mega-contracts can be avoided by cutting the player in the tail end of their deal.
Quote:
the flip side... Giants will ask, but their chances at Ndamukong Suh are not realistic - ( New Window )
Graziano seems "off" in that article. He suggested cutting McBride as a way to have more cap money available? His salary is a measly $1 mill for 2015.
He also suggested Giants are "inclined" to let Manning play out his deal? Really?
Graziano isn't the only one to suggest that, though we've had asshattery suggesting otherwise.
Frankly, extending him should only be a last resort, if you take sentiment out of it, given how likely this is to be the last year for TC and what a new regime may want/deserve in terms of building their own era.
Beyond that, perhaps an interior prospect in a later round. I don't expect much more.
Quote:
the flip side... Giants will ask, but their chances at Ndamukong Suh are not realistic - ( New Window )
Graziano seems "off" in that article. He suggested cutting McBride as a way to have more cap money available? His salary is a measly $1 mill for 2015.
He also suggested Giants are "inclined" to let Manning play out his deal? Really?
I stopped reading Graziano about a month ago. Who are his sources that suggests he knows what the Gmen are planning during free agency? He likes to stir the pot with his comments and suggestions about what HE thinks the Gmen will do. He is a tough read.
There is nothing about L Collins that stood out to me on film. He'll be a solid pro, but he is no Earl Thomas...nor even Donte Whitner to whom he's been compared
sign Suh, big $$$ to JPP, and then ON TOP of that go defense at 9 (in this draft)? that would be pretty ballsy of us.
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In comment 12163219 Eric from BBI said:
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the flip side... Giants will ask, but their chances at Ndamukong Suh are not realistic - ( New Window )
Graziano seems "off" in that article. He suggested cutting McBride as a way to have more cap money available? His salary is a measly $1 mill for 2015.
He also suggested Giants are "inclined" to let Manning play out his deal? Really?
Graziano isn't the only one to suggest that, though we've had asshattery suggesting otherwise.
Frankly, extending him should only be a last resort, if you take sentiment out of it, given how likely this is to be the last year for TC and what a new regime may want/deserve in terms of building their own era.
Extending Eli should be done if and when it's deemed needed to be done. Not because 'it's likely this is to be the last year for TC' or because whatever new regime that's brought in will want or deserve. I disagree with that statement as well as this one from your earlier post:
The reason why we'd sign him is so that (theoretically) we'd become one of those teams that would be in a 'closer situation'.
and be completely handcuffed with the cap, Eli can stay on his back all day and we can have no running game to speak of...again. May as well release Manning maybe, go full defense and play Nassib who can at least run away from pressure.
I am partly in jest, signing Suh would be great but doing that and paying JPP that franchise number which personally I hate, and putting our #1 pick on D in this draft seems over the top.
If we manage to get Suh (in some way). Outside of Beasley, I hope we go with any of the aforementioned OL in round 1.
But being that JPP is going to be here, it only makes signing Suh more sensible. Dominant units win games more than teams that spread out their resources evenly, IMO. And if we're trying to win like we did twice before, the model then was great QB play and pass rush.
Signing Suh likely has a greater positive impact on this team than any combination of three or four free agents is likely to. We've just got to be willing to go very young and cheap in some other areas.
It would be a huge balls move.
I agree 100%, seems far-fetched in almost every way.
Do you not think OL at #9, I am leaning that way. I don't think Cooper will be there. I hope we do not reach for a pass rusher. Would rather just get someone who is a lock at G or center.
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In comment 12163236 speedywheels said:
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In comment 12163219 Eric from BBI said:
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the flip side... Giants will ask, but their chances at Ndamukong Suh are not realistic - ( New Window )
Graziano seems "off" in that article. He suggested cutting McBride as a way to have more cap money available? His salary is a measly $1 mill for 2015.
He also suggested Giants are "inclined" to let Manning play out his deal? Really?
Graziano isn't the only one to suggest that, though we've had asshattery suggesting otherwise.
Frankly, extending him should only be a last resort, if you take sentiment out of it, given how likely this is to be the last year for TC and what a new regime may want/deserve in terms of building their own era.
Extending Eli should be done if and when it's deemed needed to be done.. Not because 'it's likely this is to be the last year for TC' or because whatever new regime that's brought in will want or deserve. I disagree with that statement as well as this one from your earlier
What the hell does that even mean?
Giving a huge extension to an aging good but very much flawed QB on the cusp of likely have a major organizational turnover should be an absolute last resort for any team. A team in the Giants' shoes can't just be looking at this season or even this staff when it comes to making moves that important.
If they absolutely couldn't avoid it, fine, but they can -- no realistic move or moves this offseason that would require it is going to make this team a serious contender and "finish" the rebuild.
And do you mention is every post that Eli is flawed. I am trying to think of 1 QB who isnt flawed. I mean we understand you dont view him highly, but there are only a handful of QBs who are better than him. And those QBs do not include the likes of Ryan, Rivers, Stafford, and any other mediocre QB that gets blown by the media.
I don't think they should be jumping to extend Prince either to make cap room, if they can avoid doing it, though it wouldn't be as potentially harmful
They have to try and build the best team they can for 2015, but they have to be even more geared to the future beyond. They've already clung to the past with enough players, moves and perhaps with TC in general that they've stuck themselves in this bad team middle ground, where they're not terrible enough to allow the burn down just yet, but not good enough it likely to get good enough to actually matter.
i don't like top heavy cap tables on the team. Afterall, no matter the player, every player's ACLs (or in our case Patella tendons) have inherently the same value.
They can easily structure the contract with full guarantees and roster bonuses in year 2-4 to dance around the year 1 number. The Giants are in great shape going forward even when Eli and JPP get their new deals. They don't have big money tied up in any other players like they did in 2008-2011. Players like Cruz, DRC, in 2-3 years unfortunately will probably become expendable. We can't extend for OBJ until after two more NFL full seasons either.
With regard to being out-bid, the Giants typically have a price and stick to it when going after free agents. Most of that falls within a framework to not exceed the best players on the rosters current contract.
That won't be the case with Suh as he would easily become our best player outside Eli so they can justify paying him as such. Those players don't come along very often.
With all that being said, I still believe it's a longshot.
Will make an interesting next week. Hopefully we get some asshats to make especially interesting.
I don't think they should be jumping to extend Prince either to make cap room, if they can avoid doing it, though it wouldn't be as potentially harmful
They have to try and build the best team they can for 2015, but they have to be even more geared to the future beyond. They've already clung to the past with enough players, moves and perhaps with TC in general that they've stuck themselves in this bad team middle ground, where they're not terrible enough to allow the burn down just yet, but not good enough it likely to get good enough to actually matter.
I think we are closer to a playoff team than most others think.
the hope would then be Taylor or Berhe can step in and start...
the hope would then be Taylor or Berhe can step in and start...
No thanks on Mcourty. Remember Revis was 1 on 1 so Mcourty was playing half the field and he will cash in because of Revis. No thanks
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In comment 12163245 Devon said:
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In comment 12163236 speedywheels said:
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In comment 12163219 Eric from BBI said:
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the flip side... Giants will ask, but their chances at Ndamukong Suh are not realistic - ( New Window )
Graziano seems "off" in that article. He suggested cutting McBride as a way to have more cap money available? His salary is a measly $1 mill for 2015.
He also suggested Giants are "inclined" to let Manning play out his deal? Really?
Graziano isn't the only one to suggest that, though we've had asshattery suggesting otherwise.
Frankly, extending him should only be a last resort, if you take sentiment out of it, given how likely this is to be the last year for TC and what a new regime may want/deserve in terms of building their own era.
Extending Eli should be done if and when it's deemed needed to be done.. Not because 'it's likely this is to be the last year for TC' or because whatever new regime that's brought in will want or deserve. I disagree with that statement as well as this one from your earlier
What the hell does that even mean?
Giving a huge extension to an aging good but very much flawed QB on the cusp of likely have a major organizational turnover should be an absolute last resort for any team. A team in the Giants' shoes can't just be looking at this season or even this staff when it comes to making moves that important.
If they absolutely couldn't avoid it, fine, but they can -- no realistic move or moves this offseason that would require it is going to make this team a serious contender and "finish" the rebuild.
It means that is should be done if they deem it necessary to improve the team. Not because of making future plans on if Coughlin is here or not after the season... and signing a player of Suh's caliber would/could go a long way into helping the current coach stay awhile longer. Not to mention this 'very much flawed QB' somehow has managed to flaw his way to 2 Super Bowl titles and MVPs. You're acting like the guy is like McNabb and his running ability plays a big part in his on-field success and throwing from the pocket is where he struggles when it's very much so the opposite. As someone said while I was away, Eli has probably at least another 4 to 5 years in him.
You obviously think this team is MUCH farther away from title contention than I think it is and that's cool. But Eli, despite what you think, is still very much a franchise QB who, unless the unthinkable happens, will be here for a while longer.
I don't think they should be jumping to extend Prince either to make cap room, if they can avoid doing it, though it wouldn't be as potentially harmful
They have to try and build the best team they can for 2015, but they have to be even more geared to the future beyond. They've already clung to the past with enough players, moves and perhaps with TC in general that they've stuck themselves in this bad team middle ground, where they're not terrible enough to allow the burn down just yet, but not good enough it likely to get good enough to actually matter.
I don't understand why it's so important to NOT extend some of our better players to you. I disagree that they need to be 'more geared' to the future. Why? 2015 should be their main focus, with an eye towards the future. Who knows what 2015 holds for the team... forgetting about 2016 and beyond!
Things change so quickly in the NFL that ignoring what's going on NOW in order to plan for the future is silly.
If the team stinks and Coughlin is fired and a new regime brought in, are you going to be happy about it? I know I won't. So we should plan on that happening just in case?
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Fears over tying up a significant portion of the cap in two or three players aren't really all that well grounded ...
i don't like top heavy cap tables on the team. Afterall, no matter the player, every player's ACLs (or in our case Patella tendons) have inherently the same value.
As long as Eli Manning is the quarterback, that is the model with which this team is constructed. After he's gone I'd be all for going cheap at the position with a plug and play guy who is fairly easily replaced like Seattle does, but for now this is what the team is. In our model, one Suh is worth more than three mid-sized level free agents that probably won't bring back much more value than as late round pick or UDFA.
Suh gives us that swagger. No one is going to run on Hankins and Suh. They push the pocket back into the QBs face and allow the edge rushers to terrorize the opposing QBs. Stop the run, and make the opposing team gain first downs and force a lot of third and tens. Our rushers can pin their ears back and force more turnovers that way. Adding Suh can have a snowball effect.
Think about it. Turnovers above all else equate to the highest percentage of wins. Now there are other DTs who can stop the run, but no one is available who can stop the run and push the pocket like Suh. We can't acquire multiple FAs and fix the defense like this one player can do for us. HE IS WORTH THE MONEY. HE IS WORTH MULTIPLE MORE AFFORDABLE FAs.
Turn us into the most dominating defense with one acquistion and all we need to do is get a solid run game. we do that by shoring up the weak link in the offensive line and by obtaining a pass receiving back ala Reggie Bush, Darren Sproles type whether by draft, free agency, or trade.
We are not years away from the Super bowl. Grab Suh and it is very much within our grasp immediately. Sure, we also have other needs and weaknesses, what team doesn't? We don't need to be outstanding in the secondary, just adequate if we have the most dangerous DL in the league. Surely, we can produce an acceptable secondary through FA and the draft and with a little bit of luck, maybe our injured dbs surprise this year as well.
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In comment 12163275 T-Bone said:
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In comment 12163245 Devon said:
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In comment 12163236 speedywheels said:
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In comment 12163219 Eric from BBI said:
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the flip side... Giants will ask, but their chances at Ndamukong Suh are not realistic - ( New Window )
Graziano seems "off" in that article. He suggested cutting McBride as a way to have more cap money available? His salary is a measly $1 mill for 2015.
He also suggested Giants are "inclined" to let Manning play out his deal? Really?
Graziano isn't the only one to suggest that, though we've had asshattery suggesting otherwise.
Frankly, extending him should only be a last resort, if you take sentiment out of it, given how likely this is to be the last year for TC and what a new regime may want/deserve in terms of building their own era.
Extending Eli should be done if and when it's deemed needed to be done.. Not because 'it's likely this is to be the last year for TC' or because whatever new regime that's brought in will want or deserve. I disagree with that statement as well as this one from your earlier
What the hell does that even mean?
Giving a huge extension to an aging good but very much flawed QB on the cusp of likely have a major organizational turnover should be an absolute last resort for any team. A team in the Giants' shoes can't just be looking at this season or even this staff when it comes to making moves that important.
If they absolutely couldn't avoid it, fine, but they can -- no realistic move or moves this offseason that would require it is going to make this team a serious contender and "finish" the rebuild.
It means that is should be done if they deem it necessary to improve the team. Not because of making future plans on if Coughlin is here or not after the season... and signing a player of Suh's caliber would/could go a long way into helping the current coach stay awhile longer. Not to mention this 'very much flawed QB' somehow has managed to flaw his way to 2 Super Bowl titles and MVPs. You're acting like the guy is like McNabb and his running ability plays a big part in his on-field success and throwing from the pocket is where he struggles when it's very much so the opposite. As someone said while I was away, Eli has probably at least another 4 to 5 years in him.
You obviously think this team is MUCH farther away from title contention than I think it is and that's cool. But Eli, despite what you think, is still very much a franchise QB who, unless the unthinkable happens, will be here for a while longer.
Boneman, this is just Riggies(Devon) being Riggies..I love him, but he hasn't had anything positive to say about the Giants(in the main) for years now..
I'm certainly more aligned with your mindset here
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Not QB rankings.
I don't think they should be jumping to extend Prince either to make cap room, if they can avoid doing it, though it wouldn't be as potentially harmful
They have to try and build the best team they can for 2015, but they have to be even more geared to the future beyond. They've already clung to the past with enough players, moves and perhaps with TC in general that they've stuck themselves in this bad team middle ground, where they're not terrible enough to allow the burn down just yet, but not good enough it likely to get good enough to actually matter.
I don't understand why it's so important to NOT extend some of our better players to you. I disagree that they need to be 'more geared' to the future. Why? 2015 should be their main focus, with an eye towards the future. Who knows what 2015 holds for the team... forgetting about 2016 and beyond!
Things change so quickly in the NFL that ignoring what's going on NOW in order to plan for the future is silly.
If the team stinks and Coughlin is fired and a new regime brought in, are you going to be happy about it? I know I won't. So we should plan on that happening just in case?
What's going on now is that the team stinks and it's been rotting for a long time at this point, even before a team that gave up more points than they scored won a SB. Just like nothing they were going to do last offseason was going to make them a contender, nothing is going to do that this offseason either.
They're in the awkward middle of a rebuild that is snail paced because they've been trying (and usually failing) to compete through it. Not keeping an even stronger eye beyond this year than usual, given the massive upheaval that everyone involved seems to know is lurking, is foolish. If an extension to Eli or Prince or whoever was absolutely necessary to get under the cap just to field a team or something of that sort, that would be fine, they'd have to do it, but it's not. They can't sign Suh, but they'll have enough to make some moves and keep it moving, probably not being that primed in 2015, but likely at least a little better than 2014 (just like they were a bit better in 2014 than 2013, even if the record didn't show it).
I think that Suh will end up signing a contract significantly LARGER than Watt's. I think he's looking at at least $60MM guaranteed, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a $120MM contract.
One thing that hasn't really mentioned about the cap is the effect the increase in cap space is obviously going to have on salaries. With the labor agreement in place for some time I think agents realize that the cap will be increasing regularly until the next labor agreement. This means salary inflation. This year's cap was expected to be 138MM and came in at 143MM. Next year's cap is projected to be even higher. That's an increase of almost 20% from where it was just 15 months ago, with anticipation that it can grow beyond 150MM next year. Expect a nearly 20% increase in top salaries going forward, maybe even more.
Another thing that seems to be overlooked in the discussion of whether the Giants should sign Suh is how he could make our team more physical. I'm not talking about how he is a physical player himself - that's been talked about a lot. What I think is overlooked is the need this team has for an intimidating leader. Someone who inspires the rest of the team to play physical and who isn't afraid to mix things up.
We really lost a lot when Seubert, McKenzie, and Jacobs left. Those guys made our team very different physically and we don't really have that intimidator any more.
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In comment 12163339 Devon said:
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Not QB rankings.
I don't think they should be jumping to extend Prince either to make cap room, if they can avoid doing it, though it wouldn't be as potentially harmful
They have to try and build the best team they can for 2015, but they have to be even more geared to the future beyond. They've already clung to the past with enough players, moves and perhaps with TC in general that they've stuck themselves in this bad team middle ground, where they're not terrible enough to allow the burn down just yet, but not good enough it likely to get good enough to actually matter.
I don't understand why it's so important to NOT extend some of our better players to you. I disagree that they need to be 'more geared' to the future. Why? 2015 should be their main focus, with an eye towards the future. Who knows what 2015 holds for the team... forgetting about 2016 and beyond!
Things change so quickly in the NFL that ignoring what's going on NOW in order to plan for the future is silly.
If the team stinks and Coughlin is fired and a new regime brought in, are you going to be happy about it? I know I won't. So we should plan on that happening just in case?
What's going on now is that the team stinks and it's been rotting for a long time at this point, even before a team that gave up more points than they scored won a SB. Just like nothing they were going to do last offseason was going to make them a contender, nothing is going to do that this offseason either.
They're in the awkward middle of a rebuild that is snail paced because they've been trying (and usually failing) to compete through it. Not keeping an even stronger eye beyond this year than usual, given the massive upheaval that everyone involved seems to know is lurking, is foolish. If an extension to Eli or Prince or whoever was absolutely necessary to get under the cap just to field a team or something of that sort, that would be fine, they'd have to do it, but it's not. They can't sign Suh, but they'll have enough to make some moves and keep it moving, probably not being that primed in 2015, but likely at least a little better than 2014 (just like they were a bit better in 2014 than 2013, even if the record didn't show it).
Wow. I'm beginning to get depressed just reading your posts. I don't care if the team gave up 100+ points more than they scored as long as they win the Super Bowl. I mean... who even thinks of stuff like that? What da hell does that even matter?!
So allowing the team to just go down in flames makes sense to you? Instead of trying to rebuild and stay competitive and hope we get a lil luck along with the way (especially when it comes to injuries), the team should just burn the whole thing down so that we're 2-14? THAT'S your suggestion?! And that's helping what exactly? Get a better coach? Name ONE (that will be available) that's better than a two time Super Bowl winning coach (who's beat the only coach that most would say is better than him twice in the big game by the way)?
So, if what I'm reading your saying is correct, even if the team crashes and burns to a 2-14 record and Coughlin is fired, you don't think the next coach will want Eli Manning as his QB? You don't think the next coach will want Prince as a starting CB? No matter what the future MAY hold, you don't let good players leave if you can keep them.
But you can be damn sure I'm hoping we do!
But you can be damn sure I'm hoping we do!
Same here. I just don't see it happening salary cap wise. Suh would bring a instant toughness to this defense. Maybe that is what this team, organization, and fan base needs.
If the Giant personnel dept believes Suh is the player they believe he is, then pay the man and go for the gold! No more pussy footing around.
DONT FUCKING DO IT
I believe that more often than not, every unit needs a certain amount of elite star power in order to succeed. Field tilting players make the difference. There are exceptions, the no name defense in Miami but it's probably tougher to actually field a unit that has 11 good to very good players and no real weak spots rather than field the unit that has 2-3 elite players and 3-4 good players with 2-3 guys that are average or worse.
If you think the defensive unit needs another truly elite talent, and I think we all do, go out and get him. If I am Reese I am asking myself how many times does a guy like Suh spring free? How many chances will I have to sign this kind of talent without giving up anything other than cap space? If I can get this guy won't he add a much needed element of talent and "dog" to a unit that is sorely in need of both attributes?
Whether you think this team is 1-2-3 years away, signing a guy like Suh gets the Giants closer to the ultimate goal and that goal is to fucking win. Shut the hell up with this 3 year crap. That line of thinking doesn't exist let alone exist in NY with a team that has a HOF QB in the 2nd half of his career. You build a team that can win.
This team was short on star power in 2013 and up until Beckham came around was short on star power in 2014. Star power wins NFL games. Star power wins super bowls. Depth can be found. Guys like Suh come along once a decade and good luck drafting that dude...
We need guys that tilt the field in our favor. Suh does that.