NFT: Justice Dept report on Ferguson: City, Police Corrupt

Which is why it's a damn shame the people of the city did the things they did, placing the focus (and blame) on their shoulders.

Looting your fellow neighbors took all the attention away from the real issue (police body cameras) and only served to reinforce stereotypes.

are retarded.

In comment 12163833 Nitro said:

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are retarded.

Even if we are (we're not) your aggressive behavior just now made us look correct. I hope you at least appreciate the irony, since it appears already the thread isn't going the way you wanted.

In comment 12163833 Nitro said:

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are retarded.

Lol, from the man preaching tolerance. And you drop "retarded" in your first reply. Smh

is 'damn idiot looters acting the why I suspected blacks act", I got a link for ya
http://www.fergusoncity.com/jobs.aspx - ( New Window )

That was no one's conclusion. We said it's a shame the behavior of city's people took the attention off what is evidently a problem. You are embarrassing yourself.

way

He didn't say that he "suspects blacks act that way" (using your disgusting language there).

He said the looting reinforced terrible stereotypes. He never said they were true or that he personally associated with them.

Again, you are absolutely embarrassing yourself.

Lots to learn here in a just a few posts....

Systemic racial abuse and corruption proven as well as we can prove those things.

The problem is the looters behavior. To the point where this is in your eyes outshone.

An angry crowd destroying property > Governmental & Authority conspiring for profit to the demerit of those they were tasked to protect.

Got it.

I know BBI is primarily crusty old tri-state and beltway types but heaven help us if this is the broad conclusion.

they're embarrassing themselves fek. While I'm no Rob from NYC elephant of BBI remembering some of your sorry antics from the past is hardly straining.

You keep missing the point which is opportunity lost....

and would add that if that's the view in light of this proven corruption, then there was little interest in justice to begin with.

In comment 12163894 PA Giant Fan said:

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You keep missing the point which is opportunity lost....

Read this Nitro. Read it again... then read it again.

is no different than expecting someone to change their opinion, which rarely happens here.

Establishing facts, like corruption and pervasive racism as found in the report, goes along way to explain why a "decorated" cop would think that killing an unarmed citizen is a justifiable outcome in a civil society. When everyone around you thinks like you do, its impossible to recognize that you are part of the problem.

there's nothing surprising about that report. And like you said, it extends far beyond Ferguson.

"the mistreatment is due to discrimination, and a primary focus on maximizing city revenue through citations, not to keeping the peace."

^I didn't need a report to know that.

who buy the whole 'there are no quotas' creed you'll hear bandied about.

Lack of surprise doesn't really weaken the merit of this report, if anything it strengthens it.

Obviously he doesn't know that I've been here for 10 years. Check the profile you fucking moron.

I didn't say I have these stereotypes you pathetic pile of jiz. My point is that police misconduct took a backseat to the looting, because the looting drove the media narrative. There was a chance for real nationwide change for the good (maybe even body camera legislation), except it turned into "hur hur look at these degenerates looting a liquor store".

Can you get that through your walnut sized brain you fucking idiot?

"the mistreatment is due to discrimination, and a primary focus on maximizing city revenue through citations, not to keeping the peace."

But don't conflate one officers actions by which black witnesses corroborated with the bigger picture which is also where some here went off the rail

In comment 12163952 Bockman said:

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Obviously he doesn't know that I've been here for 10 years. Check the profile you fucking moron. I didn't say I have these stereotypes you pathetic pile of jiz. My point is that police misconduct took a backseat to the looting, because the looting drove the media narrative. There was a chance for real nationwide change for the good (maybe even body camera legislation), except it turned into "hur hur look at these degenerates looting a liquor store". Can you get that through your walnut sized brain you fucking idiot?

Fek is Mike in Long beach

pretty clearly calling Mike in LB fek, because well he is.

I don't even think body cameras are the solution - how much more HD could Eric Garner get?

might wanna use that preview function

pay attention.

think this thread is wise.

When the first post turned the focus on the people who looted, that was the turn for the worse. Their stupid looting was a stupid reaction to a very real and very bad, daily problem in Ferguson.

Mentioning the looting is interesting.

When in fact the Justice report is another positive step towards the changes that were desparately needed. So its a win.

In comment 12164032 Eric from BBI said:

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think this thread is wise.

Irrelevant!

It's entertaining

Yes and no. The image most carry regarding Ferguson is a railroad job on an innocent cop and all night vigils, riots, lying witnesses, looting for a thug seen on video tape robbing a convenient store minutes prior to being shot....That is the face of this story for many....

Police are corrupt or biased or mostly serve as revenue generators? No shit

with some systematic ones. The issue with vehicle violations and resulting loss of license or additional fines is a wider one that doesn't just impact African-Americans, though it can be applied unevenly. Poverty, more than skin color, is the reason for so many of these vehicle-related drug busts. You get pulled over for a vehicle violation, which is much more common on an old beater than on a newer-model car. That gets the officer to the window. A whiff of weed or anything out of the ordinary and there is PC. Your license is suspended for nonpayment of fines from the last interaction with law enforcement? Can't drive it home. Gotta call someone. Might as well do a free air sniff. Not your first driving suspended? Arrest, search incident to arrest and inventory search.

and everyone already knew the police write tickets for money. The entire thing shed zero light on anything. It will or did kill Ferguson just like the cities from the riots in the 60s but did not enlighten or improve anything.

Half the conclusions were about racial issues, not revenue issues.

Is what turned it. It's a completely irrelevant response to the issues and facts brought up in the most recent findings and reports by the Justice Dept. The findings have to do with extensive research into the Police Department of the city and the surrounding government of that city before, during, and after all the most notable events.

Bringing up the unfortunate and awful looting that occurred in the aftermath of the legal decision and the mentioning how that "reinforces stereotypes" has what to do with the Justice Department report on the Ferguson police and local government?

expect from this Justice Department with Eric Holder as AG.

They couldn't hang the cop, so let's hang the city....

That said, is it a shock that non-whites/poor monorities have less justice.

Seems to be just a retaliation report.

Quote:

The Justice Department on Wednesday cleared a white former Ferguson, Missouri, police officer in the fatal shooting of an unarmed black 18-year-old, but also issued a scathing report calling for sweeping changes in city law enforcement practices it called discriminatory and unconstitutional

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the report found no evidence to disprove Wilson's testimony that he feared for his safety during the Aug. 9 confrontation. Nor were there reliable witness accounts to establish that Brown had his hands up in surrender when he was shot, Justice Department lawyers said.

US clears officer in Ferguson case, criticizes police force - ( New Window )

people are going to be dismissive because they don't like the AG, and the more discriminating readers because it's difficult to isolate variables (were people of different ethnicities but similar economic situations pulled over at a comparable rate or was that skewed too?), and because it's difficult to determine outside of a handful of anecdotes whether "repeated Fourth Amendment violations" is anything more than having evidence suppressed in court, which happens in even the best departments as it can be judge-specific. And dumbshit emails, for which a couple folks have already been fired, are not in and of themselves proof of anything systemic save that people are stupid. But the dog-biting thing is a substantial problem. Any sort of pattern of Fourth Amendment abuse is a problem. And the notion that serious complaints were not being investigated at all is a very serious problem.

the "hands-up, don't shoot" meme was bullshit and the riots were driven by people with an alternative agenda. Whoda thunk it?
That said, it should not be a surprise that the actual lack of a criminal act by the police officer was lost in the fog of a report that's filled with misleading stats and specious commentary. Wow, it took a team of Holder's finest to tell us that city with a small tax base and budget problems uses the law as an excuse to collect fines and raise revenue.. Sounds a lot like DC.

Please let me know if any person, company or even local governing body could withstand the scrutiny of a determined team of ideologically driven federal prosecutors tasked and hell-bent on finding "something", please let me know where they are.

this thread veers off in the right direction.

One thing I am curious about is if the police department's mission morphed into revenue production, it did not happen without the municipal government (mayor, council, etc.) being cognizant of it. In fact, it would not be surprising that they did not drive it. What are the consequences for city government officials.

punishes the poor and minorities? Color me SHOCKED!

With that said, hopefully the report will eventually lead toward body camera legislation which I hope will protect both citizens and law enforcement.

In comment 12164581 bc4life said:

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this thread veers off in the right direction. One thing I am curious about is if the police department's mission morphed into revenue production, it did not happen without the municipal government (mayor, council, etc.) being cognizant of it. In fact, it would not be surprising that they did not drive it. What are the consequences for city government officials.

You act like this is a revelation. There are hundreds of towns - probably more - around the country whose two or three mile stretch of interstate or well-traveled state road funds the majority of the municipal budget. States have quite rightly cracked down on this to some extent, centralizing fine revenues, but the problem persists.

One would think, in fact hope, that as government official - regardless of your personal beliefs, you would be wise and/or professional enough to not include derogatory racial comments in your correspondence. deflecting the blame onto the AG is strange path to take.

based on some of the comments from the officers, the AG is only discovering what some of the FPD officers have known for some time.

Hopefully, this will get things turned around.

part of my post made you incorrectly conclude that I "act like this is a revelation"? you're imagining or fabricating things

Again, for those who missed the obvious point, I state it more simply. Government officials knew or should have known about this - so they should share in the blame as well as the police department.

In comment 12164585 bc4life said:

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One would think, in fact hope, that as government official - regardless of your personal beliefs, you would be wise and/or professional enough to not include derogatory racial comments in your correspondence. deflecting the blame onto the AG is strange path to take. based on some of the comments from the officers, the AG is only discovering what some of the FPD officers have known for some time. Hopefully, this will get things turned around.

BC, the point is that if they crawled up your ass with a microscope, you would be breaking rocks in a federal pen for violating or breaking some law, statute, or whatever you didn't even know existed. As far as the emails go, I repeat that if you look at every message that every employee of every government sent to one another in confidence, you could cobble together a few that could be used to prove whatever you want.

It's funny that the AGs office can find a few derogatory words in a few emails by obscure employees in a small city in Missouri but the same government can't locate and produce emails sent by the IRS and the Department of State. Goes to show what they're priorities are.

In comment 12164591 bc4life said:

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part of my post made you incorrectly conclude that I "act like this is a revelation"? you're imagining or fabricating things Again, for those who missed the obvious point, I state it more simply. Government officials knew or should have known about this - so they should share in the blame as well as the police department.

My point, which was made in a snarkier fashion than it should have been, is that it's probably not a closely guarded secret. They know because it's a business model, not an accident.

because someone is steering this toward the delete pile.

In comment 12164600 Dunedin81 said:

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because someone is steering this toward the delete pile.

You think it's just one person?

Yeah, I have no problem with municipalities benefiting from fines. But, when it becomes their primary reason for existence - no good can come of it.

And, I agree - didn't take long for the thread to veer off course and it will undoubtedly self-destruct or at the least, be unproductive.

In comment 12164604 T-Bone said:

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In comment 12164600 Dunedin81 said: Quote: because someone is steering this toward the delete pile. You think it's just one person?

One person this morning. But your point is taken.

In comment 12164606 bc4life said:

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Yeah, I have no problem with municipalities benefiting from fines. But, when it becomes their primary reason for existence - no good can come of it. And, I agree - didn't take long for the thread to veer off course and it will undoubtedly self-destruct or at the least, be unproductive.

And the idea of municipalities running their own courts fraught with peril. Yes these are traffic infractions, but when failing to appear on a traffic charge becomes a criminal charge the two aren't exactly distinct. I remember the lengthy piece on the subject of Ferguson and other local jurisdictions and their traffic courts; even allowing for the exaggerations of interested parties it was still upsetting.

Dune, T-Bone, imho, its an impossible setting and start point from which to raise any meaningful discussion

In comment 12164609 Dunedin81 said:
[quote] In comment 12164606 bc4life said:


Quote:


Yeah, I have no problem with municipalities benefiting from fines. But, when it becomes their primary reason for existence - no good can come of it.

And, I agree - didn't take long for the thread to veer off course and it will undoubtedly self-destruct or at the least, be unproductive.


Because your opinion avails itself to a productive discussion?

In comment 12164617 Bill2 said:

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Dune, T-Bone, imho, its an impossible setting and start point from which to raise any meaningful discussion

Bill2 - I can agree with that. I can also see what Eric meant in his post. Whatever... it's not worth the aggravation.

had selectively posted on those parts of the Justice Department report covering Darren Wilson (where does he go to get his reputation back?) and the fact that "hand up, don't shoot" was pure and utter fiction.

This post was/is merely an opportunity to start a shit storm. If the OP had been interested in serious discussion of facts he would have covered the report in it's entirety.

Darren Wilson's reputation was made in a system that was corrupt and ethically depraved as noted in the report. Since its being dismantled, he will have to start from scratch, which is a greater good.

In comment 12164681 WideRight said:

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Darren Wilson's reputation was made in a system that was corrupt and ethically depraved as noted in the report. Since its being dismantled, he will have to start from scratch, which is a greater good.

This sheer idiocy is a good bit of why police end up alienated from the communities they serve. You inveigh on things you know nothing about and gleefully sacrifice the reputation (just as you would have gleefully sacrificed the liberty) of a public servant to the "greater good." You're a moron.

In comment 12164681 WideRight said:

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Darren Wilson's reputation was made in a system that was corrupt and ethically depraved as noted in the report. Since its being dismantled, he will have to start from scratch, which is a greater good.

So when can he come out of hiding?

In comment 12164649 njm said:

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had selectively posted on those parts of the Justice Department report covering Darren Wilson (where does he go to get his reputation back?) and the fact that "hand up, don't shoot" was pure and utter fiction. This post was/is merely an opportunity to start a shit storm. If the OP had been interested in serious discussion of facts he would have covered the report in it's entirety.

I really don't want to get involved in this thread too much but IMO it's not accurate to say the 'hands up, don't shoot' movement is bogus. Perhaps the situation that started that movement turned out to be misapplied (the Wilson-Brown incident) but that doesn't negate the thousand of other times when it can be correctly applied. Just my opinion.

The end result was not unlike the UVA "rape" story. Legitimate problems that are all too easily dismissed because opportunists backed the "wrong victim." It's unfortunate for everyone involved, not least the community of Ferguson which will struggle to recover.

In comment 12164699 T-Bone said:

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In comment 12164649 njm said: Quote: had selectively posted on those parts of the Justice Department report covering Darren Wilson (where does he go to get his reputation back?) and the fact that "hand up, don't shoot" was pure and utter fiction. This post was/is merely an opportunity to start a shit storm. If the OP had been interested in serious discussion of facts he would have covered the report in it's entirety. I really don't want to get involved in this thread too much but IMO it's not accurate to say the 'hands up, don't shoot' movement is bogus. Perhaps the situation that started that movement turned out to be misapplied (the Wilson-Brown incident) but that doesn't negate the thousand of other times when it can be correctly applied. Just my opinion.

T-Bone, just saw you and wanted to say hi. I hope you are well.

In comment 12164699 T-Bone said:

Quote:

In comment 12164649 njm said: Quote: had selectively posted on those parts of the Justice Department report covering Darren Wilson (where does he go to get his reputation back?) and the fact that "hand up, don't shoot" was pure and utter fiction. This post was/is merely an opportunity to start a shit storm. If the OP had been interested in serious discussion of facts he would have covered the report in it's entirety. I really don't want to get involved in this thread too much but IMO it's not accurate to say the 'hands up, don't shoot' movement is bogus. Perhaps the situation that started that movement turned out to be misapplied (the Wilson-Brown incident) but that doesn't negate the thousand of other times when it can be correctly applied. Just my opinion.

T-Bone - Just to clarify, my comment was only directed to this specific incident.

Duned - Agreed.

Moondawg - hey buddy! Things are going great! Thanks for asking. Hope everything is well with you and your family.

njm - Gotcha!

In comment 12164649 njm said:

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had selectively posted on those parts of the Justice Department report covering Darren Wilson (where does he go to get his reputation back?) and the fact that "hand up, don't shoot" was pure and utter fiction. This post was/is merely an opportunity to start a shit storm. If the OP had been interested in serious discussion of facts he would have covered the report in it's entirety.

It's sad that you are missing the forest for the trees. I don't always agree with you, but you seem to be an intelligent guy that is always willing to have honest discussions and is willing to actually listen and learn from them.

So, Nitro's excellent trolling history aside (in a good way, BTW- he's much better than the wanna be mouth breathers that we usually have around here- for one, most of the time it goes unrecognized) let me explain what I mean:

Think back to when this came out and before any official evidence was revealed. One of the arguments being thrown around was example after example of other unarmed folks being shot and killed by police followed by the question, "why isn't this a big deal?" (many times it was a poor oppressed white guy trying to say that the black folks are being racist because white folks get shot too and nobody riots.) What those idiots failed to take into account is the fact that the folk in Ferguson weren't rioting specifically for Brown- Brown was a representation of how corrupt and racist the local law enforcement there is/was. I think it has been established that yeah, Brown was no Rosa Parks (which BTW was staged- did that make what she stood for any less real? - yeah I know- some folks are going to take that analogy way too literal and miss the meaning, but whatever) but in the beginning what came out through word of mouth and social media was absolutely exactly what those folks saw as the 'final straw' and it quickly became a rallying point for them to stand up and do something.

Of course, destruction and damage isn't such a great way to go about making your point- but it absolutely can be effective if not morally sound.

So back to the point- the takeaway from this isn't that the officer was justified (which had pretty much already been established). The takeaway is the answer to the question the scared white guys were asking back then. Why the uproar about this and not other instances?

Of course that answer is because the people yelling "Hands up, don't shoot" had one part absolutely correct- there is a corrupt gov't/police force in Ferguson. The problem is based on race. Something does need to be done to correct the problem.

That's the forest. It's a shame that some folks (not you, njm) will use the fact that the Brown shooting wasn't a good example of that to continue to ignore the very real problem and continue to place the blame on the victims of that problem.

For the country maybe that could have been a starting point, but for the community? The history of urban rioting in America has few if any examples of the communities impacted by the rioting rebounding. Much more often (Newark, the Rust Belt cities) rioting is the beginning of or at least a milestone in terminal decline.

In comment 12164765 Dunedin81 said:

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For the country maybe that could have been a starting point, but for the community? The history of urban rioting in America has few if any examples of the communities impacted by the rioting rebounding. Much more often (Newark, the Rust Belt cities) rioting is the beginning of or at least a milestone in terminal decline.

You're of course correct.

I'm never nearly as clear as I would like to be. I was speaking more of the motivation for the riots, and instead ended up poorly justifying them.

as interesting was that on morning Joe this morning, they were shocked that there is a town that pads their budgets with traffic fines and ticket quotas. Well no shit.

The racial aspect is completely abhorrent in 2015.

In comment 12164785 ctc in ftmyers said:

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as interesting was that on morning Joe this morning, they were shocked that there is a town that pads their budgets with traffic fines and ticket quotas. Well no shit. The racial aspect is completely abhorrent in 2015.

That's a nice thing to say, and a nice thing to believe.

But it is just as 'interesting' as being shocked that there's a town that raises revenue via tickets, IMO.

Please don't take that as an attack- I can't tell if you were trying to express shock that racism is still alive and well in plenty of places. Unless of course you were expressing shock that racism is alive and well in plenty of places.

I will say though that '2015' isn't all that far removed from segregation. I was born just a few years after separate but equal was made illegal. It's no surprise that folks are still dying and fighting to be rid of a hidden, yet just as sinister form of it today.

In comment 12164742 T-Bone said:

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Duned - Agreed. Moondawg - hey buddy! Things are going great! Thanks for asking. Hope everything is well with you and your family. njm - Gotcha!

It is going well, thanks!

Following Dune and Cam's thoughts, I do find it personally hard to navigate when false stories are contrived and run with by opportunists and self-congratulatory, strident hotheads (e.g., Duke Lacrosse), when there are real underlying issues to confront (e.g., sexual abuses on campus that are vastly under reported.

I get upset when the self-righteous brigade wash over their uncritical destruction of innocents with statements like "well, the important thing here is our concern to protect women." I find it infuriating and immoral. And in any case, the truth matters, as does having the guts to be honest even if it's not easy.

At the same time, attention must be given, as rightly noted above, to the underground currents of oppression or marginalization which seize on these trigger points. One can do justice to both concerns, though it is hard in a culture where there is a rush on all sides to divvy up the good and bad guys and start swinging immediately.

Mostly banal and obvious, I know.

In comment 12164690 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

In comment 12164681 WideRight said: Quote: Darren Wilson's reputation was made in a system that was corrupt and ethically depraved as noted in the report. Since its being dismantled, he will have to start from scratch, which is a greater good. This sheer idiocy is a good bit of why police end up alienated from the communities they serve. You inveigh on things you know nothing about and gleefully sacrifice the reputation (just as you would have gleefully sacrificed the liberty) of a public servant to the "greater good." You're a moron.

In one of the original threads on this subject way back, I remember someone said something to the effect that Wilson needed to punished whether he is guilty or not for the greater good of all. Does anyone remember who said that? Was it Wide Right? I really don't remember.

like whether Darren Wilson was guilty or not didn't matter because the entire black population of Ferguson was consistently abused by the local police department for years. The incident was merely a sparkplug that exploded underlying tensions amongst a populace that was discriminated against on a large scale.

Whether you are pro police or anti-police, IMO, it's hard not to be disgusted by what the Ferguson PD has done. We can debate whether aggressive policing tactics and profiling are necessary to prevent violent crime and reasonable minds can disagree on that, but when racist emails are commonly sent on police listserves and black motorists in traffic are searched at a much higher rate than white motorists (despite searches on white motorists yielding illegal items more often), not to mention the myriad of other problematic actions by this police department, it's hard for me to see how anyone could argue that heads don't need to roll here and that this police department needs to be overhauled from the ground up.

Thank you for the non-rant.

To begin, I'm well aware that Rosa Parks was a "plant". She was also a very disciplined and non-violent plant. I don't think I denied the legitimacy of any and all protest, and I don't think she's relevant here. In addition, she was a hell of a lot more effective.

As far as missing the forest for the trees, I'd counter by saying that the point I was trying to make is that you should look at the entire forest. The OP selectively picked out limited portions of the report essentially, IMHO, so he could rub shit in the faces of a select group of people. He amplified that in a way came within an eyelash of stating that all cops are racists. My reply was essentially an attempt to say "Not so fast, Kemosabe".

The report clearly shows that racism exists in the Ferguson PD. In fact, my understanding is that some of the specific perpetrators have been suspended or fired. I'm not sure whether that came before or after the report (and I don't know if it was released early to the FPD). However, I disagree with you on one point, I believe the rioting was related to Brown. A tense atmosphere existed before hand, but things would have been peaceful but for the shooting.

And what about Wilson? The fact that he's essentially in hiding tells me that for a long time there was no takeaway that the shooting was justified. "Where do I go to get my reputation back" - Ray Donovan certainly applies here. And what about the hustlers who poured gasoline on the fire? This probably taints my perspective, but I've watched Sharpton in action for a quarter century. Back during the Tawana Brawley case I was spending a day or two each month in Poughkeepsie on business. I saw what that hoax did to a community. I was working in Manhattan when 5 or 6 innocent people died in Freddy's. If we need to confront the racism in the Ferguson PD don't we also need to confront the racism of the race hustlers who made a bad situation worse?

And let's recognize that while racism is clearly an issue, economics also play a role. My perspective on that one may be tainted as well, having paid $79. last fall (with the promise of no points) for "not coming to a full stop before making a right hand turn at a red light". Lets also look at the make-up of the Ferguson PD. Predominately white. But so was the town 15-20 years ago. Now I will admit ignorance regarding police unions in Missouri, but back East if someone floated the idea of firing white police officers to hire more black officers you'd have major union issues notwithstanding possible civil rights litigation. The makeup of the PD simply can't be adjusted as fast as the town changed. What's needed is outreach and time for the natural attrition (retirement) to occur.

So I think if anyone has ignored things it was the OP and his filtered results.

It looks like a few dozen or so negative emails out of (presumably) tens of thousands sent across their network over the period of inquiry. Distasteful, but does it mean what you suppose it to? As I mentioned above there are aspects that are truly troubling, but even the dog thing. Do fourteen dog bites in what, five years, constitute an indictment of anyone and everyone? Fourth Amendment violations? Potentially a very serious problem. But are these Fourth Amendment violations something clear cut or are these simply suppression motions, which are subjective and generally the near-exclusive purview of the trial judge? Complaints being dismissed are also very serious, but many complaints ARE frivolous. Are people being pulled over because they're black or because they're poor? The anecdotes are damning, but anecdotes are always damning. They constitute the worst of a given situation. Absent context and methodology, turning anecdotes and even statistics into effective policy changes is difficult.

In comment 12164710 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

The end result was not unlike the UVA "rape" story. Legitimate problems that are all too easily dismissed because opportunists backed the "wrong victim." It's unfortunate for everyone involved, not least the community of Ferguson which will struggle to recover.

I interpret this to mean that just because something didn't happen, doesn't mean we shouldn't pre-judge and ruin innocent people's lives to promote an agenda.

In comment 12163897 Nitro said:

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and would add that if that's the view in light of this proven corruption, then there was little interest in justice to begin with.

Wtf don't you understand about what these people are saying.
Is there corruption? Most likely. However, like or understand it not, but the spot light was shifted away from that by the rioting & looting.

In comment 12164906 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

It looks like a few dozen or so negative emails out of (presumably) tens of thousands sent across their network over the period of inquiry. Distasteful, but does it mean what you suppose it to? As I mentioned above there are aspects that are truly troubling, but even the dog thing. Do fourteen dog bites in what, five years, constitute an indictment of anyone and everyone? Fourth Amendment violations? Potentially a very serious problem. But are these Fourth Amendment violations something clear cut or are these simply suppression motions, which are subjective and generally the near-exclusive purview of the trial judge? Complaints being dismissed are also very serious, but many complaints ARE frivolous. Are people being pulled over because they're black or because they're poor? The anecdotes are damning, but anecdotes are always damning. They constitute the worst of a given situation. Absent context and methodology, turning anecdotes and even statistics into effective policy changes is difficult.

To expand on this, what the report says is that African Americans are disproportionately cited for infractions (sometimes absurdly so, with very nearly all of the citations for specific infractions being written against African Americans). But to explain the why they turn to racist emails, as though that proves a Fourteenth Amendment violation. To say that's tendentious is an understatement.

In comment 12164791 Cam in MO said:

Quote:

In comment 12164785 ctc in ftmyers said: Quote: as interesting was that on morning Joe this morning, they were shocked that there is a town that pads their budgets with traffic fines and ticket quotas. Well no shit. The racial aspect is completely abhorrent in 2015. That's a nice thing to say, and a nice thing to believe. But it is just as 'interesting' as being shocked that there's a town that raises revenue via tickets, IMO. Please don't take that as an attack- I can't tell if you were trying to express shock that racism is still alive and well in plenty of places. Unless of course you were expressing shock that racism is alive and well in plenty of places. I will say though that '2015' isn't all that far removed from segregation. I was born just a few years after separate but equal was made illegal. It's no surprise that folks are still dying and fighting to be rid of a hidden, yet just as sinister form of it today.

I was born while it still was. So no, I wasn't shocked at racial component. Just think it's abhorrent in this day and age. Years ago I actually was going to do a capstone on the difficulties of finding qualified minorities for the fire service and by association, law enforcement. I don't mind research, but after about a week, my head was spinning. Did a simple 10 year plan for the department I worked for. That was pre log in on BBI and had some good discussions on the subject on the board.

I was shocked that the talking heads were shocked that there still are speed trap towns in existence. Hell, AAA has them listed by state and route as do other resources.

Englewood Cliffs, though their wings were clipped recently by a NJ ruling with respect to traffic cameras.

In comment 12164956 njm said:

Quote:

Englewood Cliffs, though their wings were clipped recently by a NJ ruling with respect to traffic cameras.

We have famous ones in Florida.

you can address me directly. These veiled passive efforts in an effort to remain 'above the fray' really just come across as sniping. Makes you look bad.

While I'm not surprised your conclusion differs from mine, I give you credit, you are easily the most ardent, consistent 'nothing is wrong' reactionary we have here. Some day we'll find something that is worthy of change, but this apparently isn't the topic. Something, something forest.

Cam, good posts.

Ferguson was a "Sundown town' til the mid-1960s. For those of you who don't know what that is,

'A sundown town is a town, city, or neighborhood in the United States that was purposely all-white. The term came from signs that were posted stating that people of color had to leave the town by sundown.'

If you think it was just 'economic'.

page 76 - ( New Window )

says that the town is not the same today and that its citizens, black and white, take pride in the town and its demographic diversity.

everything's fine now. It's not like any of the police leadership came of age back then.

In comment 12165210 Nitro said:

Quote:

everything's fine now. It's not like any of the police leadership came of age back then.

They came of age 50 years ago? So the police leadership, the patrol captains, are 65 or 70 years old? IDK what law enforcement you hang out with.

But in all seriousness, the report credits history, racist emails and nepotism as the reasons why the disparate impact is intentionally discriminatory. To me that's a stretch. There is a lot in there that troubles me, as I've already pointed out, but I also think they tried to split the proverbial baby, clearing Darren Wilson while indicting the department and the town.

I mean you were a child to teenager then. Is police leadership usually not in their 50s or early 60s? Would they have not grown up in households which were by the very nature of it existing, pro-sundown? Not everyone household, not every cop right we get it.

alive in 1960 think differently about race now as compared to 55 years ago?

What percent of people learned nothing in 55 years?

in regards to homosexuality would hardly have raised an eyebrow, even in relatively progressive settings. Civil unions was forward-thinking fifteen years ago. Now one position is considered bigoted and the other tantamount to segregation in polite society. Views change. Are there still "unreconstructed" Southerners and Missouri and elsewhere? Absolutely. But they look absurdly anachronistic even in places where two generations ago they were ubiquitous.

is inferring that there's a racist culture there that has carried forward. And if it were a Sundown Town that recently, you really think all those people have done a 180 on their feelings towards people different than themselves? And their kids? Many carry forward those traditions of close-mindedness. None of this is new news.

but either "belief" leaves us with too thin an inference from which to call out the motives or intelligence or levels of tolerance.

kind of a missing link of certainty we all agreed others need to label as "imho" instead of calling all others warped WITH PRE- PROGRAMMED CODE by the SOFTWARE DEVELOPER.

In comment 12164751 Cam in MO said:

Quote:

In comment 12164649 njm said: Quote: So back to the point- the takeaway from this isn't that the officer was justified (which had pretty much already been established). The takeaway is the answer to the question the scared white guys were asking back then. Why the uproar about this and not other instances? Of course that answer is because the people yelling "Hands up, don't shoot" had one part absolutely correct- there is a corrupt gov't/police force in Ferguson. The problem is based on race. Something does need to be done to correct the problem. That's the forest. It's a shame that some folks (not you, njm) will use the fact that the Brown shooting wasn't a good example of that to continue to ignore the very real problem and continue to place the blame on the victims of that problem.

Good stuff, Cam. But the takeaway is more nuanced than you portray. The findings of the Federal investigation on the shooting, and that of the State Grand Jury (which itself was both procedurally and substantively compromised so as to further erode confidence in its integrity by the community most directly affected (though who fear for their lives, upon any interaction with police) was this:

The evidence was insufficient to prove the shooting was NOT justified.

That does NOT mean that the evidence was sufficient to prove that the shooting WAS justified.

The difference is important because it goes to the continuing and unremedied dissonance in perception by members of the African American communities surrounding St. Louis and that of white community members in the same area. (And similar dissonances throughout the US.)

As a matter of actual fact, which will never be settled, the shooting may well have NOT been justified, but there is insufficient evidence to establish that. The lack of evidence is attributable to two factors: 1) Michael Brown's first hand testimony is unavailable because he is dead, and 2) the standard for justification, as noted in the Federal Report, is subjective. All that was required is for Wilson to have "felt afraid."

There is no lie detector test or chemical analysis for "fear hormone" to possibly confirm or refute Darren Wilson's "feelings."

Perhaps an objective standard under the law would yield a different result: That if one had the means of escaping the confrontation (Hit the gas and book) and possessed a firearm while the other individual had neither, then no "REASONABLE Person" would feel scared.

It is the mushiness of the Subjective Standard, combined with the fact that Wilson came to the confrontation with two things Brown didn't have -- a car and firearm -- that buttresses the sense of justification among those who think Wilson deserves to have his reputation trashed, to lose his job, and every other bad thing that happens to him.

They feel that way because (obviously) they *don't believe* Wilson when he says he was afraid or that he had any basis for feeling afraid, beyond his own racist assumptions and the arrogance afforded by his badge, or that he didn't needlessly bring upon himself.

Also, the constant reference to the rioting is itself disingenuous. The vast majority of the protesters did not riot, and the protests went on for months. The local community sought to hold protests during daylight hours, to keep people safe and avoid trouble. In fact the vast majority of the protesters sought to prevent and stop any rioting. The most incidents occurred at night, after the organizers and their law abiding marchers had gone home. Local resident protesters also organized regular clean up efforts.

Of course the efforts by LOCAL organizers and their political representatives to prevent, stop and clean up after the rioting received next to no media coverage. It simply isn't as exciting as things on fire. So you can blame the media for that distorted perception -- but only in part.

There are all too many people who are happy to cite the rioting in order to confirm the racist stereotypes that they already harbor. You can tell who these folks are because they speak of the rioting as if it was the only response the local African American residents had, and there is no attempt to parse who was rioting and who was not. It's an across-the-board, undifferentiated collective responsibility that altogether excuses the proponent from having any sympathy for the protesters and their grievances.

And it's not as if such proponents are incapable of parsing varieties of bad behavior and responsibility, because there are, doing exactly that with respect to the overwhelmingly white police.

It's interesting to see how any police misconduct is attributed to "a few bad apples," while selective blindness is directed at the very real incidents of police rioting -- assaulting and pointing weapons not only at protesters but at journalists covering the events; shooting poison gas not only at protesters, which was NOT okay, but also into local residential areas, where people were not even protesting.

Some folks do that because they are racists, expressly and overtly devoted to sabotaging and destroying the efforts of the protesters and to suppressing their cause. Anonymous members repeatedly exposed Ku Klux Klan attempts to sabotage the the protests and outed Klan members in Ferguson and other St. Louis-area police departments and local governments. There was also video of white guys starting fires, which, of course, went nowhere.

These were the same groups and people who engaged in the same activities during Dr. King's campaigns. Only back then they were actually among the federal officials (Cointelpro). Now the Klan has its members within the State organizations. So the "bad apple" theory does not wash.

This is the land of Dred Scott. There are deep, historical Klan roots in the part of the country. These people are hellbent on reducing the protests to nothing more than riots.

Other people lump all protesters with the rioters because the status quo doesn't really affect them one way or another, and so long as they can rationalize being detached, they do. It's an excuse not to care and is so insidious that in some ways it's worse than the Klan. It's what enables the Klan to keep doing what they do because opposing and fighting them is "the black people's problem." It's being a part of the problem.

Quote:

There are all too many people who are happy to cite the rioting in order to confirm the racist stereotypes that they already harbor. You can tell who these folks are because they speak of the rioting as if it was the only response the local African American residents had, and there is no attempt to parse who was rioting and who was not. It's an across-the-board, undifferentiated collective responsibility that altogether excuses the proponent from having any sympathy for the protesters and their grievances. And it's not as if such proponents are incapable of parsing varieties of bad behavior and responsibility, because there are, doing exactly that with respect to the overwhelmingly white police.

Thanks.

why would you purport to know so much both of the psychology of Southern whites, or for that matter Southern blacks? You don't know who was looting, you know (like the people you lampoon) who your chosen media outlets told you was looting. They emphasize the positives, FNC emphasizes the negatives, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. And claiming that Klan members are running amock in state government, undermining protesters and pressure for change, is vaguely McCarthyite, is it not?

My mother was yanked out of public school in New Jersey because they started busing. That her parents made a decision that most of us find abhorrent fifty years ago has not left a discernible imprint on her character.

I didn't limit myself to ascribing those thought processes to Southern Whites.

Klan involvement was steadily documented throughout the riots. Look up what Anonymous was doing. They doxed and identified many Klan members on police forces in the St. Louise are and elsewhere in the US.

And no, I don't live in NYC. I grew up in Western NY and am living there now. And by Western NY, I don't mean Poughkeepsie.

You're mischaracterizing what I wrote. Read it again.

But that is not what I said.

What I said was that the vast majority of protesters were NOT among the looters. Yet they get smeared and their legitimate grievances get discounted.

One Klan affiliate was that woman who was shown to have lied about being present when Michael Brown was killed. Many media sources showed that her account could not possibly have been true. If you think that bona fide racists and klan members weren't doing their part to undermine the protests...or weren't among those who lionized Wilson, then you're not paying attention.

There are opportunists on all sides.

"One Klan affiliate was that woman who was shown to have lied about being present when Michael Brown was killed."

REPLACE:
"One Klan affiliate was that woman who was shown to have lied TO THE GRAND JURY about being present when Michael Brown was killed."

In comment 12165567 schnitzie said:

Quote:

But that is not what I said. What I said was that the vast majority of protesters were NOT among the looters. Yet they get smeared and their legitimate grievances get discounted. One Klan affiliate was that woman who was shown to have lied about being present when Michael Brown was killed. Many media sources showed that her account could not possibly have been true. If you think that bona fide racists and klan members weren't doing their part to undermine the protests...or weren't among those who lionized Wilson, then you're not paying attention. There are opportunists on all sides.

Yes but I don't claim to know. As you point out, it is very convenient for those who suppose nothing is wrong to say "look at those horrible people, they're burning their own town down." And it is equally convenient for those who want to find racists hiding behind every rock and bush to say "these were all provocateurs and opportunists from out of town. The locals were the ones marching peacefully by day." Why should either agenda-driven narrative be deemed credible?

I referred to: "...the sense of justification among those who think Wilson deserves to have his reputation trashed, to lose his job, and every other bad thing that happens to him."

What makes you assume I was referring only to "blacks"? Let alone "Southern Blacks"?

Those are interesting assumptions you make.

In comment 12165353 Nitro said:

Quote:

I mean you were a child to teenager then. Is police leadership usually not in their 50s or early 60s? Would they have not grown up in households which were by the very nature of it existing, pro-sundown? Not everyone household, not every cop right we get it.

As Bill said, plenty of things have changed since the 60s. I remember the civil rights riots, the busing. I also remember girls sitting out school until they were allowed to wear pants to school (this was public school) and all sorts of things that seem ridiculous today. To say that people are imprinted when they are teenagers and never change is ridiculous.

In comment 12165576 schnitzie said:

Quote:

I referred to: "...the sense of justification among those who think Wilson deserves to have his reputation trashed, to lose his job, and every other bad thing that happens to him." What makes you assume I was referring only to "blacks"? Let alone "Southern Blacks"? Those are interesting assumptions you make.

I was speaking more to your characterization of what the local African American community wanted and did regarding protesting and rioting than about that. Psychology is a poor word choice to describe it, but my point that you can't accurately divine their motivations any better than I can still stands.

I think she owned a bakery. She was black. She went on TV to talk about how she rebuilt her store from the first riot and then it was trashed again. People all over the country sent her money, I think it was over $100K. Most people don't see race in something like that. Just a person wanting to have a life and do business and is trapped in that circle of violence.

In comment 12165575 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

In comment 12165567 schnitzie said: Quote: But that is not what I said. What I said was that the vast majority of protesters were NOT among the looters. Yet they get smeared and their legitimate grievances get discounted. One Klan affiliate was that woman who was shown to have lied about being present when Michael Brown was killed. Many media sources showed that her account could not possibly have been true. If you think that bona fide racists and klan members weren't doing their part to undermine the protests...or weren't among those who lionized Wilson, then you're not paying attention. There are opportunists on all sides. Yes but I don't claim to know. As you point out, it is very convenient for those who suppose nothing is wrong to say "look at those horrible people, they're burning their own town down." And it is equally convenient for those who want to find racists hiding behind every rock and bush to say "these were all provocateurs and opportunists from out of town. The locals were the ones marching peacefully by day." Why should either agenda-driven narrative be deemed credible?

Here you're mixing apples and oranges.

I didn't say that the ones rioting weren't locals. I said that the majority of the protesters were peaceful.

And the history of racist sabotage of civil rights demonstrations is deep and documented. Not to mention that there was documentation of Klan attempts to sabotage the protests (not claiming *they* were rioting) and of Klan members in local police in the St Louis area.

The broader point I was making was to point out how painting all protesters as rioters was a subtle or lazy form of racism, performed by those who were able to parse bad behavior by the local authorities and by the local racist organizations.

I believe our analysis of the situation is closer than you may think.

during the day time and who cleaned up after the destruction of the day before should be obvious. Why would you have such a hard time with that?

Do you think they, too, should be smeared as "rioters"?

In comment 12165590 schnitzie said:

Quote:

during the day time and who cleaned up after the destruction of the day before should be obvious. Why would you have such a hard time with that? Do you think they, too, should be smeared as "rioters"?

I think the looters should be smeared as looters. We saw some very positive, heartwarming stories coming out of that mess and hopefully we'll see more. But as I've said several times the last fifty or so years of the history of civil unrest suggests that it'll be a very tough road for the community. Money, and those with it, will likely flee and the end result will be more suffering for people who have seen enough.

There are a lot of storylines in this. To some of them I am very sympathetic, to some of them I am less so, but I don't think the idea that it can or should be wrapped into one comprehensive narrative on a region and its people is accurate.

That corroborated Wilson. Black witnesses afraid to come forward to the public.....

And the kid robbed a convenient store 15 minutes earlier and almost everyone confirms seeing Brown halfway into the police car when a shot was fired....

Can we say that we are 95% sure that Wilson was justified..

Trying to continue to say Wilson might have done this or that only further perpetuates the problem.

"Perhaps an objective standard under the law would yield a different result: That if one had the means of escaping the confrontation (Hit the gas and book) and possessed a firearm while the other individual had neither, then no "REASONABLE Person" would feel scared."

I don't think I would be comfortable with an "objective standard" that demanded the police get in the car and leave while a dangerous violent person even if unarmed is left to roam the street. Not exactly protect and serve the public.

I am, however, 95% sure that your opinions don't mean much. (Actually higher than that.)

The standards for a Federal civil rights indictment are higher and quite different than for a state manslaughter indictment. There never was much chance that Wilson would be indicted at the federal level, and it isn't in the slightest bit indicative of his guilt or innocence.

Again....what was the evidence? You quote about the type of proceeding ignoring the data presented there....Faulty logic on your part but highlights the overall problem...

People want to know when racism will end. But no one asks the right questions. The answer is when one segment of society is arrested for a comparable # of crimes per capita as other races.

The reasons for this can be addressed but no one is talking about it here and no one really does because it requires a person to ask the right questions and take them down paths they can't really handle due to ideology.

The other answer is time....Each generation things get better. And eventually we will all be some shade of brown anyway.

on the facts of Ferguson. You have long since demonstrated that you have no respect for alternative viewpoints, which taints your arguments and makes anything you say pretty much unconvincing.

Btw, linked is a wonderful article on Pro Publica on the experience of dealing with the police among a large segment of black Americans. I am confident taht you won't find it useful or convincing, but that says much about you and little about the experience described.

It starts with the experience of a group of black professionals who witnessed a criminal who had shot off a gun.

Quote:

“Someone was just shooting on the beach,” she said, between gulps of air, to the person on the line. Unable to imagine whom she would be calling at that moment, I asked her, somewhat indignantly, if she couldn’t have waited until we got to safety before calling her mom. “No,” she said. “I am talking to the police.” My friends and I locked eyes in stunned silence. Between the four adults, we hold six degrees. Three of us are journalists. And not one of us had thought to call the police. We had not even considered it. We also are all black. And without realizing it, in that moment, each of us had made a set of calculations, an instantaneous weighing of the pros and cons. As far as we could tell, no one had been hurt. The shooter was long gone, and we had seen the back of him for only a second or two. On the other hand, calling the police posed considerable risks. It carried the very real possibility of inviting disrespect, even physical harm. We had seen witnesses treated like suspects, and knew how quickly black people calling the police for help could wind up cuffed in the back of a squad car. Some of us knew of black professionals who’d had guns drawn on them for no reason. This was before Michael Brown. Before police killed John Crawford III for carrying a BB gun in a Wal-Mart or shot down 12-year-old Tamir Rice in a Cleveland park. Before Akai Gurley was killed by an officer while walking in a dark staircase and before Eric Garner was choked to death upon suspicion of selling “loosies.” Without yet knowing those names, we all could go down a list of unarmed black people killed by law enforcement. We feared what could happen if police came rushing into a group of people who, by virtue of our skin color, might be mistaken for suspects... For those of you reading this who may not be black, or perhaps Latino, this is my chance to tell you that a substantial portion of your fellow citizens in the United States of America have little expectation of being treated fairly by the law or receiving justice. It’s possible this will come as a surprise to you. But to a very real extent, you have grown up in a different country than I have.

Link
Link - ( New Window )

I have respect for others viewpoints....just maybe not those that attack on this site, call me a racist, and are generally hostile. Oddly these same people seem to get into arguments on every thread they post on.

Truth is the answers to these issues are mostly in front of our noses but no one is willing to address them.

I have respect for others viewpoints....just maybe not those thugs that attack on this site, call me a racist, and are generally hostile thugs. Oddly these same thugs seem to get into arguments on every thread thugs post on.

Truth is the answers to these issues are mostly in front of thug's noses but no thug is willing to address them.

I am demonstrably not a thug. I don't think you are a thug, either. Just remarkably impressed with yourself. It's a style that invites simulated thuggery in others.

how'd you like the Pro Publica article? Did it stimulate any brain cells?

To tell me blacks fear police. Blacks are targeted by police. Also blacks make up a much higher % per capita of violent crime. I have had people that worked for me tell me horrible stories. Its not right and no one wants to address the real problems.

The police thing is more of a symptom then a problem. You will see Hispanics surpassing blacks on almost every socio-economic measure, education, college entry etc....

Ask yourself this - Which group is targeted more by police. Hispanics or Blacks? Careful though, you won't like what you find based on your ideology.

Quote:

Though blacks are outnumbered 5-to-1 in the population by whites, they commit eight times as many crimes against whites as the reverse. By those 2007 numbers, a black male was 40 times as likely to assault a white person as the reverse.

Link - ( New Window )

Is that the profiling of black people likely prevents crime against black people....not that I agree with profiling

Quote:

I have had people that worked for me tell me horrible stories. Its not right and no one wants to address the real problems.

What are they, herr oberstrummfuhrer?

BTW to add to the irony of your comment, I am also Jewish...

But you are doing a good job of highlighting the actual problem although you have no idea you are doing so.

They were engineers working on my projects. Also Muslim...from Africa...speak multiple languages...Harassed by police. DWB etc...

and say what you really feel, what are the real problems are?

that is - typos are death sentences at camp bbi.

Do you seriously think that's the test or even an indicator of when racism will end?

Since the poorest third of all black all white and all Asian societies are also arrested and serve more time for "crimes" than other strata...Please help me understand how your contention is factually sound and not based on correlation or conflation?

breakdown or lack of family structure, and its all a cycle.....

So much attention to cops against blacks but Nitro where are your threads about black on black crime? Blacks are far more in danger of other blacks then they will ever be of whites or white cops.

When you accept this and address it....much of the race issue will fade away.

White racism and white cops are a bogeyman, a strawman which further creates a segment of the population unwilling to address the real problems.

Quote:

Though blacks are outnumbered 5-to-1 in the population by whites, they commit eight times as many crimes against whites as the reverse. By those 2007 numbers, a black male was 40 times as likely to assault a white person as the reverse. n New York from January to June 2008, 83 percent of all gun assailants were black, according to witnesses and victims, though blacks were only 24 percent of the population. Blacks and Hispanics together accounted for 98 percent of all gun assailants. Forty-nine of every 50 muggings and murders in the Big Apple were the work of black or Hispanic criminals.

Hispanics are surpassing blacks in many areas....do you think whites just like Hispanics more?

Economics, laws, cycle of violence, broken homes are not a white or black thing but are the ultimate cause

The Bayard Ruskin and Daniel Patrick Monihayn assertions

I have yet to see one post from you that makes any sense... but have seen several that are both illogical and contradictory. I don't feel like going through them all but so I'll just stick to a few of the last ones...

At 6:29 you said:

Quote:

Not true I have respect for others viewpoints...

Not even a half hour later you said (in response to mg asking if you read an article he posted for your benefit):

Quote:

I didn't need an article...To tell me blacks fear police.

This is where one of your contradictions come in. You say you 'respect' others viewpoints... but you didn't even bother to read an article that was posted for you to read. THEN you have the nerve to post an article yourself just six minutes later (I guess it took about that much time for you to find the article you read almost 2 years ago that supports your view that black people bring racism onto themselves... which I'll get to in a second) that supposedly has 'a lot of truth' in it. You have a strange way of 'respecting' others opinion when you don't bother to read and/or ignore them all together. You keep acting like you are so open to having some kind of dialogue about race.... that the rest of us don't want to ask about... and yet you have neither stated what it is that needs to be asked or talked about. You're like the kid who keeps saying he knows the answer to the question and he can't believe the rest of the people in the room can't figure it out... when you really have no idea what the question is... much less the answer.

Which brings me to this beauty:

Quote:

Blacks are far more in danger of other blacks then they will ever be of whites or white cops. When you accept this and address it....much of the race issue will fade away.

So... if I'm reading this right (and please correct me if I'm wrong)... what you're saying is that if there is less black on black crime... some white people aren't gonna hate black people any more? Do you not see how silly that sounds? So extinguishing black on black crime will cause much of the race issues in the country to 'fade away'? You truly believe that? I guess that would make sense... if it weren't for the fact that black on black crime was at it's lowest points during the '60's and '70's... and yet that was when racism was much more alive and well in this country than it will ever be again. How would you explain that? I'd love to know.

Lastly, for whatever reason you keep typing this:

Quote:

Hispanics are surpassing blacks in many areas

To that I say, what da hell does that matter? I would ask what these 'areas' are... but frankly I don't care. Matter of fact, good for them as a race if they are! I, personally, am happy for them and hope they as a race continue to progress and do well. I'm not sure what hispanic people as a race doing well has to do with police brutality and racism against black people... but whatever.

Actually, that was second to last because THIS is last:

Quote:

Economics are much more of an indicator then race

First off, indicator of what? I've seen it repeated on here not just by you but at least one other that 'economics' play a part in this... which is a 'part yes'... but a small part because well off, educated, white collar black men(and they do exist) are nearly as likely to be targeted by racist cops as that thug on the corner selling weed. It's not like those kind of cops ONLY target the poor black folks. They don't discriminate. To some of them, an educated nigger is just an 'uppity one... but a nigger nevertheless'. So please, everyone, stop making this sound like economics play a large part when it comes to police brutality and racism against black people. As has been proven time and time again... it doesn't matter how much green you got... you're still and always will be black first.

You act like you know what can abolish slavery in this country but honestly... I don't think you have a clue. I can at least see where someone like Duned is coming from, even if I disagree with some of his points. You... I'm convinced... are not a racist person but a person who is in denial of what's really going on in this country. I at least get the impression that a guy like Duned doesn't have his head in the sand as you seem to.

is why great posters like Kyle and Ash left this board.

No offense, but you put WAY too much energy into that. He will never be convinced that he is anything but omnipotent and omniscient.

On the other hand, sometimes it is pleasurable to point out to the rest of the world just how big a stain a shitstain is, so there is that.

I do not believe that ALL cops are bad cops. I believe there are some good ones just like there are some bad ones.

I've been stuck in the house because of the snowstorm and so even though I've seen some posts that I disagreed with... or flat out shook my head at... I really wasn't interested in getting involved. I even had typed out a post that I thought about posting but deleted it because I really wasn't interested in getting involved. But to see PA Giant Fan constantly say 'It's your race's own fault for the brutality and racism you're experiencing.' and other nonsense... I just couldn't contain it any more and it all came out. I could've gone back further and gone through some of his older posts on this thread but decided that post was long enough.

I know I'm probably gonna regret that post because I truly wasn't interested in getting involved and now I am. But I couldn't take it any longer. I mean c'mon... because a black man robs another one... that's why some white people hate them? What kind of warped, twisted logic is that?

In comment 12165921 David in LA said:

Quote:

is why great posters like Kyle and Ash left this board.

I didn't even realize they had left. Ash disagreed with something I said a couple months ago and I never responded because I was on the road, I'll have to drop him a line.

In comment 12164690 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

In comment 12164681 WideRight said: Quote: Darren Wilson's reputation was made in a system that was corrupt and ethically depraved as noted in the report. Since its being dismantled, he will have to start from scratch, which is a greater good. This sheer idiocy is a good bit of why police end up alienated from the communities they serve. You inveigh on things you know nothing about and gleefully sacrifice the reputation (just as you would have gleefully sacrificed the liberty) of a public servant to the "greater good." You're a moron.

Police end up alienated from the communities they 'serve' when they racially profile and are guilty of what the Ferguson police are guilty of. You're just as guilty of inveighing something you know nothing about. You're a moron.

In comment 12165937 T-Bone said:

Quote:

I've been stuck in the house because of the snowstorm and so even though I've seen some posts that I disagreed with... or flat out shook my head at... I really wasn't interested in getting involved. I even had typed out a post that I thought about posting but deleted it because I really wasn't interested in getting involved. But to see PA Giant Fan constantly say 'It's your race's own fault for the brutality and racism you're experiencing.' and other nonsense... I just couldn't contain it any more and it all came out. I could've gone back further and gone through some of his older posts on this thread but decided that post was long enough. I know I'm probably gonna regret that post because I truly wasn't interested in getting involved and now I am. But I couldn't take it any longer. I mean c'mon... because a black man robs another one... that's why some white people hate them? What kind of warped, twisted logic is that?

Don't regret it, it was a great post.

In comment 12166000 Kulish29 said:

Quote:

In comment 12164690 Dunedin81 said: Quote: In comment 12164681 WideRight said: Quote: Darren Wilson's reputation was made in a system that was corrupt and ethically depraved as noted in the report. Since its being dismantled, he will have to start from scratch, which is a greater good. This sheer idiocy is a good bit of why police end up alienated from the communities they serve. You inveigh on things you know nothing about and gleefully sacrifice the reputation (just as you would have gleefully sacrificed the liberty) of a public servant to the "greater good." You're a moron. Police end up alienated from the communities they 'serve' when they racially profile and are guilty of what the Ferguson police are guilty of. You're just as guilty of inveighing something you know nothing about. You're a moron.

You don't have to agree with what the police do or how they do it, but if you lack the ability to even begin to put yourself in their shoes - because you know law enforcement officers as family or friends - and your interpretation of them is based on a dumbshit caricature your opinion is not terribly useful. Criticism without understanding is worthless.

T-Bone's opinions on these threads are worth reading because these things are obviously real to him. They're personal anecdotes and those of friends and family, some of which he has shared. Those for whom police are a reflexive "other" though rarely contribute much more to these threads than some of the posters they pillory.

"read between the lines" bit.

The only time I use that bullshit is when I'm uncomfortable saying something. The "I'm" part is the important part.

So this idiotic idea that nobody wants to talk about black people committing more violent crime per capita or black folks committing more violent crime against other black folks is simply a load of shit.

I think what he was attempting to say as far as economics goes T-bone is that crime is committed by poor people, regardless of race.

The thing to look at then, would be why is there a disproportionate amount of poor black folks?

I'm certainly no expert, but although everyone loves to think that slavery and segregation are ancient history, they in fact are not. There are definitely lingering effects of institutional racism that is still being felt and that puts black folks at a disadvantage (in general, of course).

That's of course just one reason/cause. I don't pretend to be smart enough or educated enough on such a complicated topic to be able to add all that much more.

There are also problems in black communities that are somewhat self-inflicted. I don't think anyone denies that.

What folks don't like however, and what I imagine is making PA so uncomfortable, is when those problems (racism, not accepting folks that are 'too white', drugs, single parent families, whatever else) are made out to be not only the sole reason that black folks start off at a disadvantage, but that those problems are also solely because of black people and black culture- while ignoring all of the other things that influence black culture.

I also notice that the same folks that support this idea that "black folks just need to fix themselves instead of blaming us poor white folks who weren't even alive when slavery was around" seem to ignore any attempt by black folks to address or fix the issues within the black community unless it's coming from one of the 'good niggers' (Bill Cosby and Chris Rock usually tend to be the good nigger du jour although us old white guys are trying to distance ourselves from Bill as of late.)

If anyone has been paying any sort of attention outside of the news networks- or ya know, actually getting involved in these communities, there are countless examples of black folks trying to address these problems.

Unfortunately- it's a hard row to hoe when many of the actual folks that really could help the most still seem to be under the sway of institutional racism- that shouldn't exist anymore.

Anyway.

This thread and a lot of the prior threads about Ferguson (and race in the US in general) really make me wish Hope was still with us. She always has some great insight to add- and always 100% from her heart which was filled with love and kindness to everyone.

What a load of illogical crap. Your post makes no sense and the comments after go on further to explain why we have this problem and it is not going to get better any time soon.

Again, blacks commit a highly disproportionate amount of violent crime and most of it is against other blacks. Yet not one of you here, not a single damn one of you apologists can bear to mention it or start a thread about it. Cowards basically.

Humans are built to survive. It is in our DNA. We are conditioned. The cops are conditioned and the stats bear out their behavior....you blame cops for blacks behavior.

Your response however shows either a level of denial or ignorance to the core of the problem. I say over and over that the problem is poverty, drug laws, cycle of violence, lack of family structure that is perpetuated, etc......

Yet you ignore that part too.

You guys are apologists and can't face reality.

Why is it that Hispanics are passing blacks by in education, crime, college etc? Because it highlights something is wrong in the black community or do you believe that Whites just like hispanics more then blacks so whitey is targeting blacks?

Yes extinguishing black in back crime will greatly reduce racism. Because in order to do it you have to address the real issues which none of you are willing to do.

How many threads started here about Ferguson? How many started here discussing kids killed daily in Chicago or Detroit? How many threads about poverty or kids born out of wedlock or that 1/3 black men will have a criminal record? No its white cops.

You want to know why you guys don't address the real problems and want to blame racism? Because its ugly and dirty and hard for white apologists to talk about.

Are some white cops racist? Sure
Are some people racist? Sure
Are these items the underlying factor preventing black people from succeeding in life? Not hardly

I am not uncomfortable but I do want to see a solution and blaming racism for problems in the black community is so backward thinking and incredibly incorrect and in the way of solving the problem that it blows my mind.

1/3 black men will have a criminal record. In these communities, there is no hope, there is poverty....When you address these issues, you will solve the overall issues.

And what do I think the vast majority of white people think? I think they are tired of hearing it, don't give a shit about the color of a persons skin. They are just trying to get by like everyone else in the world. They walk on egg shells in public trying to be politically correct and talk honestly behind closed doors. And when the 1/3 number is greatly reduced the self indiced pressure will relieve itself.

I don't agree with the weight you give to those contributing factors to the problems many but not all black families have.

But lets say I did...propose a solution.

Then the results you expect from your solution and the timing of those results.

Then tell me how the timing of results from your solutions is not slowed greatly by attitudes and stereotypes.

Without the putdowns of others you deploy when you cant write down the logic behind the polemic. Screeching that others don't get the truth only you are courageous enough to see...is not intellectual honesty...its BBGOFO instead of diligence.

Thanks

but I think the reason people react the way they do to them isn't because you're spittin truth, it's because like some of the other posters regarding the other "side" of this controversy you seem to lack empathy. You're passing judgment on and purporting to understand communities you don't understand. Book learning and Google are nice but neither gets you all the way there. It's fair to say, and in general terms I agree, that latent racism is a poor explanation for these ills but so long as people are a "they" that "need to get their shit together" I don't think others will be particularly receptive to what you're saying.

not to Bill's.

Normally I like what you write but that was incoherent babble. Its early in the morning but get to the point. Your verboseness and attempts to be overly eloquent is overdone here and misses the mark.

You don't believe that poverty, broken homes, drug laws, all cyclical in nature and self fulfilling are the problem, then fine. Its just us nasty white people keeping the black man down. Keep perpetuating that idea and see what progress is made. None will be made at this point because it only does two things.

First of all it isn't true so you have lost support for it and secondly it just pits blacks against white which is titillating and creates drama but serves no good.

My solution is to fix the drug laws, remove drug offenses from records after a few years, give incentive to graduate high school, work on preventing pregnancy out of wedlock, ways to actually strengthen the black community......

But now I have no Empathy....lol...

Hey screw it, lets just blame racist cops....

I am just going for raw honesty. Not going to sugar coat or try to appease anyone. Or rationalize...Again I am the only one on these threads talking about the actual causes because people are afraid to really address them and be honest. 1 out of 3 black men will have a criminal record. That simply destroys a community...It is not racist cops responsible for them committing crimes. Some stats

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Though blacks are outnumbered 5-to-1 in the population by whites, they commit eight times as many crimes against whites as the reverse. By those 2007 numbers, a black male was 40 times as likely to assault a white person as the reverse.

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In New York from January to June 2008, 83 percent of all gun assailants were black, according to witnesses and victims, though blacks were only 24 percent of the population. Blacks and Hispanics together accounted for 98 percent of all gun assailants. Forty-nine of every 50 muggings and murders in the Big Apple were the work of black or Hispanic criminals.

Are these numbers a result of white racism? Racist cops?

Like I said earlier, demographics are changing. in 100 years we will mostly all be some shade of brown.

thats not close to what I think. Not close. And I gave you clues to discern as much

but I don't interact with those who believe they have magical powers to know what others are thinking.

Its yours to figure out that a request the rigor required to be effective about ones beliefs comes up empty.

take care

write to you?

First off, right here is your major problem:

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And what do I think the vast majority of white people think? I think they are tired of hearing it, don't give a shit about the color of a persons skin. They are just trying to get by like everyone else in the world. They walk on egg shells in public trying to be politically correct and talk honestly behind closed doors. And when the 1/3 number is greatly reduced the self indiced pressure will relieve itself.

Here the mental box you've put yourself in, and it's exactly what my post was about.

You're not uncomfortable talking about the problems yet you only do so behind closed doors? That makes perfect sense.

And you're doing the exact thing that I was talking about- acting as if it's all the fault of the black folks themselves and that it's all just a matter of them waking up and realizing that they need to stop acting like they're poor and black.

its yours to figure out why a request for the rigor required comes up empty. Beliefs without effectively being able to influence and gain adherents is masturbation.

In comment 12166187 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

What a load of illogical crap. Your post makes no sense and the comments after go on further to explain why we have this problem and it is not going to get better any time soon. Again, blacks commit a highly disproportionate amount of violent crime and most of it is against other blacks. Yet not one of you here, not a single damn one of you apologists can bear to mention it or start a thread about it. Cowards basically. Humans are built to survive. It is in our DNA. We are conditioned. The cops are conditioned and the stats bear out their behavior....you blame cops for blacks behavior. Your response however shows either a level of denial or ignorance to the core of the problem. I say over and over that the problem is poverty, drug laws, cycle of violence, lack of family structure that is perpetuated, etc...... Yet you ignore that part too. You guys are apologists and can't face reality. Why is it that Hispanics are passing blacks by in education, crime, college etc? Because it highlights something is wrong in the black community or do you believe that Whites just like hispanics more then blacks so whitey is targeting blacks? Yes extinguishing black in back crime will greatly reduce racism. Because in order to do it you have to address the real issues which none of you are willing to do. How many threads started here about Ferguson? How many started here discussing kids killed daily in Chicago or Detroit? How many threads about poverty or kids born out of wedlock or that 1/3 black men will have a criminal record? No its white cops. You want to know why you guys don't address the real problems and want to blame racism? Because its ugly and dirty and hard for white apologists to talk about. Are some white cops racist? Sure Are some people racist? Sure Are these items the underlying factor preventing black people from succeeding in life? Not hardly

Oh my god. This is just a horrible, awful, atrocious post. It's completely out of touch with reality. That last note you ended on is the kicker - just absolutely unbelievable. The marginalization of racism just shows that it's something you've absolutely never, ever, had to deal with once in your life.

I started listing off all the ways you are wrong, but it's pointless. You're pretty much just as bad as Spock.

It also seems lost on you that it isn't only black minorities that have a general mistrust of the police. I come from a very well educated family of Indian immigrants. My Dad's one of the most respected physicians in his field in New Jersey. He does not think the police are out to help us when we interact with them in public. Why is that?

But that has nothing to do with the issue.....When you understand that, things will become clear. It is almost like you guys are in denial of what is actually occurring. Most of the violent crime is black on black crime too. So what does race have to do with that?

You guys are funny....in denial but funny

You need rigor to know to that economics determine poverty and crime. You need rigor to know that much of the violent crime is black on black...You need rigor to know that babies having babies begets a cycle of poverty and crime and you need rigor to know how drug use and laws grossly effects one segment of the population over another? A segment where 1/3 blacks have a criminal record or do you need rigor to know how that can take away a persons hope leading to the issues at hand?

This is common sense shit.

I don't like nor do I trust the police. Never have. I think the field attracts the wrong type of people and that police are on the side of property and the idea of "protect and serve" is lost....Drug laws are a big part of the problem here....But police do not cause black crime or poverty or drug use

The connection to the same kind of magical thinking mixed with certainty and lack of compassion for other viewpoints on a complex subject we saw on the other other thread is an interesting comparison.

on some subjects it is impossible to be "right" about. Too many factors. Too wide an interplay between them or the subject simply defies what humans can "know" for sure. And that frailty we humans have is tough for folks who fall into a "not always right but never in doubt" trap

And yes ...just a small but very real example of bias is the frustrations non white/non American schooled physicians face despite wonderful adherence to the Hippocratic Oath and great educational backgrounds.

In comment 12166441 PA Giant Fan said:

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But that has nothing to do with the issue.....When you understand that, things will become clear. It is almost like you guys are in denial of what is actually occurring. Most of the violent crime is black on black crime too. So what does race have to do with that? You guys are funny....in denial but funny

I'm not in denial of anything. You're missing the absurdly obvious point that police behavior isn't just some sort of symptom of the "problem", hell it isn't even something that merely perpetuates the "problem", but rather is a primary mechanism of the entire "cycle" you describe.

Your "behind closed doors walking on eggshells" diatribe is some bizarre white-people-are-the-victims victim mentality that is unfortunately all too common.

This is an excuse and BS in this case

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on some subjects it is impossible to be "right" about. Too many factors. Too wide an interplay between them or the subject simply defies what humans can "know" for sure. And that frailty we humans have is tough for folks who fall into a "not always right but never in doubt" trap

There is more then enough data out there to look at why some make it and some don't. Differentiating factors. Nah, lets throw up our hands and say "we just can't be sure"

more excuses......

That might be the funniest shit I have read today. On egg shells, secret white people meetings..

but to top it, here you have it

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police behavior isn't just some sort of symptom of the "problem", hell it isn't even something that merely perpetuates the "problem", but rather is a primary mechanism of the entire "cycle" you describe.

LOL, its the cops fault blacks commit crime.

There you have it people

My post is 'illogical' to you because you refuse to open your mind to what others thoughts and, more importantly, experiences are/have been when it comes to race relations in the country. You keep spouting the same nonsense... from the same silly article... and put your hands over your ears and yell 'Blah, blah, blah... the article I've linked over and over again says that it's all you guys' (black folks) fault and it is!'. You keep talking about having a 'discussion' and yet you're not really discussing anything... you're just regurgitating the same silly statistics from the same silly article over and over again.

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Again, blacks commit a highly disproportionate amount of violent crime and most of it is against other blacks.

And again, what da hell does black on black crime have to do with why racism exists? You have yet to answer (and therefore 'discuss') this one simple question. I'm not even trying to dispute this claim because I wouldn't be surprised if it's correct. But how it relates to a white person hating black people I just don't get. Please at least try to give me an explanation... if you can.

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Humans are built to survive. It is in our DNA. We are conditioned. The cops are conditioned and the stats bear out their behavior....you blame cops for blacks behavior.

Who's blaming cops for 'black behavior'? No, what I think most are blaming SOME cops for is a blantant racist attitude towards not just black people but any minority. The part where you come in is YOU are blaming that attitude on black people themselves for whatever strange reason.

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Your response however shows either a level of denial or ignorance to the core of the problem.

Actually, my response shows neither of those. Actually... yes it does... I'm in denial with regards to your silly notion that racism exists because of black on black crime. That's just such a silly idea that I can't believe a grown man can come to that conclusion. I'm not ignorant to the 'core of the problem' at all... I just don't agree one bit that your silly idea of what the 'core problem' is (black on black crime).

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I say over and over that the problem is poverty, drug laws, cycle of violence, lack of family structure that is perpetuated, etc......

But what you miss is that those factors are only PART of the problem... not the only causes of the problem. Poverty being one of the only 'causes' is debunked when you take into account the FACT that it not all black people are poor. A well-off black man (you seem to have a problem believing that we exist) is nearly just as likely to get harassed as a broke one. 'Drug laws' and 'cycle of violence' are so ambiguous that's it's not worth mentioning and 'lack of family' structure as being a 'cause' for racism is just as silly as saying police brutality happens because of black on black crime.

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You guys are apologists and can't face reality.

Apologists for who exactly? And while you're at it, what exactly is a 'white apologist'? You've lumped me in with that group several times now and I don't see myself as an 'apologist' of any kind... and I damn sure ain't white. So are you saying that I'm apologizing for white people? You really seem to not know what you're talking about in most of your post but in particular when you throw that term around in them.

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Why is it that Hispanics are passing blacks by in education, crime, college etc? Because it highlights something is wrong in the black community or do you believe that Whites just like hispanics more then blacks so whitey is targeting blacks?

Ahhh... there's that same stupid stat that you seem to enjoy throwing around for whatever reason. So hispanics alledgely (and I have yet to see that stat anywhere else but here, from you, by the way... I did a Google search and I couldn't find one article that states that) 'passing' blacks means there's something wrong in the black community? Why? If what you say is true, why can't they be 'passing' us simply because more of them are working harder and making the most of their opportunities? Oh that's right... because ALL of black people's problem are because of black people issues. Got it. And what makes you think that Hispanics need for white people to 'like' them in order for them to succeed? In your mind it appears that you think that minorities need white people to 'like' them in order for them to succeed. Says a lot about you and your thought process and explains a lot of your silly stances as well.

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Yes extinguishing black in back crime will greatly reduce racism. Because in order to do it you have to address the real issues which none of you are willing to do.

How? Please try to answer this time.

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How many threads started here about Ferguson? How many started here discussing kids killed daily in Chicago or Detroit? How many threads about poverty or kids born out of wedlock or that 1/3 black men will have a criminal record? No its white cops.

These threads appear because they discuss events that have happened over the past several months. If you're so interested in discussing threads about '...poverty or kids born out of wedlock or that 1/3 black men will have a criminal record?' and how it's the main cause of racism in this country, feel free to start one of your own and I'll be glad to discuss it with you. You seem to be so happy... giddy even... to continuously throw in our faces how black people are solely responsible for fucking up their own lives I'm surprised you haven't started one by now.

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You want to know why you guys don't address the real problems and want to blame racism? Because its ugly and dirty and hard for white apologists to talk about.

Again, please elaborate what you mean by the term 'white apologists' because I just don't understand what you mean by it. Thanks!

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Are some white cops racist? Sure Are some people racist? Sure Are these items the underlying factor preventing black people from succeeding in life? Not hardly

Who, at any point in this thread, stated that racism is the ONLY underlying factor for why black people aren't succeeding in life (which is funny to even type because I'm black and feel like I'm succeeding in life just fine)? You see... that's an argument YOU created so that you can state that as a fact and argue against it.

This last post wasn't directed at me but I'd like to respond to it anyway:

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I am not uncomfortable but I do want to see a solution and blaming racism for problems in the black community is so backward thinking and incredibly incorrect and in the way of solving the problem that it blows my mind.

You don't want to 'see a solution'. You want black people to accept COMPLETE and TOTAL blame for the situations some black people find themselves in. You want black people to think 'So wait... I'm black and you mean to tell me that if I don't rob that black man over there... racism will no longer exist?'. Which is such a silly notion I don't see how anyone with any sense can come up with it.

Using your logic, you'd be the type to blame a woman for getting raped because she wore a short skirt. But keep on keepin on thinking that YOUR solution to racism is the only and correct one.

no...those observations are BBGOFO.

Solutions require rigor

Rigor requires completeness. what you point out are some factors openly discussed academically and in debate on social policy in the early 60's...the 1860's much less the early 1960's in several books and directives by many (hence BBGOFO on your part) nor are those factors all the factors. And jumping up and down as if you have any more superior insights ( they aint insights if they are well documented as more than 60 years old) and have a platform to call others inferior renders you a handicap to take on the steps that matter...for convincing others of your solutions requires patience and humility.

And like every human change effort ever undertaken....you will find the effectiveness and extent and timing of results from whatever solution you propose to be subject to changing hearts over very long periods of time.

In comment 12166451 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

You need rigor to know to that economics determine poverty and crime. You need rigor to know that much of the violent crime is black on black...You need rigor to know that babies having babies begets a cycle of poverty and crime and you need rigor to know how drug use and laws grossly effects one segment of the population over another? A segment where 1/3 blacks have a criminal record or do you need rigor to know how that can take away a persons hope leading to the issues at hand? This is common sense shit.

There isn't even anything inherently wrong in any of this post. Of course these are all problems. But you act as if the police are not part of this problem.

You view this as "police are humans, they're reacting to the stats" while ignoring that they are in fact, to a larger extent than you would like to admit, responsible for the stats. Honestly though, there is greater culpability with the entire legal system, and police are just one subsect of this (you referenced drug laws yourself, and there's been many studies on disproportionate sentencing for whites vs blacks).

The truth is not either one of these two extremes (cops are racist vs cops are just reacting to statistics) - the truth is in the middle, but the problem is that both of the "extremes" perpetuate the other into an positive feedback loop, which by extension perpetuates all the other factors you listed.

Growing up in an area where everyone is poor, police are the enemy, and the most successful people make their money in crime, is only going to leave an impression with the kids in the area. The thing is, you're essentially saying "this is all black peoples fault, look at the hispanics!" - that's not true at all. At the same time, it isn't wise to say that it's all white people or all the existing institutions. Like many things, the truth is somewhere in the middle - but that is not a position you are taking.

And bringing up "black on black crime" in this context is nothing more than FNC style deflection. T-Bone correctly called that argument ridiculous.

Finally, just because whatever media outlets you follow don't report on people stepping up to stop violence in their own communities, doesn't mean it does't happen. But again, that's irrelevant (or at best, tangently related, IF even that) to black American-police interactions.

But you know what the bottom line is? It's fucking bullshit to single people out and make them feel like a criminal because of how they look, it's bullshit that a police department acts and is encouraged to act more as a revenue generator than an actual police force, and its fucking bullshit when police purposely target people of one race more than people of another. And worst of all, it's bullshit when police have no respect for a population - and while this can occur to people of all races, it definitely occurs to minorities more, and it definitely occurs to blacks the most.

People can try and justify it all they want (and there's a ton of justification from extremely intelligent posters earlier in this thread) but the bottom line is that no, everything is not fine, the results of this report are not acceptable, the status quo is not acceptable, and just because it does't affect YOU (rhetorical "you", and assuming you are white) doesn't mean nothing should be done about it.

Lastly, Schnitzie was spot on about the results of the grand jury re: Wilson. Whatever you believe happened (Don't even fucking start with me PA Giants fan), the grand jury did not come out and say "Hey, Wilson was right", no matter how much it may seem that way in layman's terms.

as I said much earlier...lets stipulate all those factors to be true

Develop a solution for just those factors

convince others

then either the solution is incomplete or you are

Where is your request for rigor when trying to blame cops for black crime rates...lol

There is plenty of data out there to support my thoughts here. I am the only one supplying any actual statistics.

this does not even reach the level of interesting. obtuseness for obtuseness sake.

another example of how closed loop non learning believers proceed certain of the accuracy and relevance of their own magical powers to attribute motive and limits to others while avoiding the same human traps in their own thinking.

rarely right, hardly effective but never in doubt

In comment 12166472 Bill2 said:

Quote:

The connection to the same kind of magical thinking mixed with certainty and lack of compassion for other viewpoints on a complex subject we saw on the other other thread is an interesting comparison. on some subjects it is impossible to be "right" about. Too many factors. Too wide an interplay between them or the subject simply defies what humans can "know" for sure. And that frailty we humans have is tough for folks who fall into a "not always right but never in doubt" trap And yes ...just a small but very real example of bias is the frustrations non white/non American schooled physicians face despite wonderful adherence to the Hippocratic Oath and great educational backgrounds.

Great post as always Bill2. I completely agree - it's always strange (though not unexpected) to see people just assume that they can boil things down to black and white, right and wrong, up and down - all while simultaneously: 1) not having any nuance or understanding that real life is complex and never so binary and 2) being dogmatic in their belief that their side is "right".

The parallel that always pops into my mind comes from when I was an econ undergrad. We'd be in one of the early college classes, like intermediate micro or macro, or econometrics, when you're first moving past the SUPER basic models and into slightly more complex ones, and taught how economic models are applied in the real world on a basic level. But in the back of my mind, I was always like "real life is so fucking complicated, and there's so many different things interchanging and so many different variables, how can we actually model something that even comes kind of close?" It's the same idea I have with discussions like these. Everything affects everything else and it's tough to know how much, and that should always be the subtext behind these discussions or the context/frame which they take place in.

Your post is full of illogical conclusions and misinterpretations to try and bolster your opinion which is needed because what I am saying is not really in question.

If blacks didn't commit such a large percentage of violent crime and if 1/3 black men didn't commit crime racism would go down. Racism is built out of fear and fearing a race that commits a highly disproportionate amount of violent crime is self preservation. Again one third of black men have criminal records...one out of three

So blacks commit black on black crime because of white cops? White cops make blacks turn to drugs? White cops make black kids kill black kids? White cops are responsible for kids having kids?

And T-bone if you are successful are you saying that white racist cops didn't bring you down?

The truth is that the issues at hand that cause these problems are not black problems, they are ultimately economic and family structure problems. And whether you are white black or brown......However white racist cops is not part of any of this...

Bill2, Sonic, TBone and all

What % of the issues in black neighborhoods and communities are caused by white racist cops....

I dare you to answer

In comment 12166491 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

That might be the funniest shit I have read today. On egg shells, secret white people meetings.. but to top it, here you have it Quote: police behavior isn't just some sort of symptom of the "problem", hell it isn't even something that merely perpetuates the "problem", but rather is a primary mechanism of the entire "cycle" you describe. LOL, its the cops fault blacks commit crime. There you have it people

Dude, are you dense? I was paraphrasing whatever you said about "white people behind closed doors". You're the one that said that.

Anyway, I didn't say it's the cops faults blacks commit crime. But let's not act like police aren't part of the problem - they are, and to a large extent.

BTW, didn't you ever stop to think that racial profiling and institutional racism in law enforcement means more blacks will get arrested, which directly impacts the stats you are clinging to?

I'm not saying it's SOLELY responsible, but you're contending that police are 100% absolved. Get the fuck outta here with that fairy tale bullshit.

no one challenged the precision of your statistics...merely the overall relevance, completeness of the analysis and therefore the completeness of the overall conclusions.

accurately measured with a micrometer but missed by a mile

the relevant questions are:

Do they play any part as even perceived factors by the inhabitants?

do they play a part or none?

Since you want black people to change....then any obstacles...real or perceived....are actually obstacles to the difficulty of personal change.

you seem to want change but you seem to want it without any acknowledgement of all the factors that go into a person actually making a change.

the perceived obstacles to personal change are more relevant than the truth of the causes

And violent crime? You think the police are manufacturing that stuff? I am sure there is a very small % of arrests that are unwarranted, very very small but that is not the real issue.

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Do they play any part as even perceived factors by the inhabitants? do they play a part or none?

Very very small part and much of it is due to the overall crime situation in these areas not cops born as racists

Quote:

Since you want black people to change....then any obstacles...real or perceived....are actually obstacles to the difficulty of personal change.

I don't want black people to change per say. We are all the same. I want the circumstances around them to change. Like I said, poverty, crime, drug laws, opportunity

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you seem to want change but you seem to want it without any acknowledgement of all the factors that go into a person actually making a change.

Thats nonsense. I am the only person actually talking about the factors required for change. White racist cops is not a blip to the overall problem here is my point

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the perceived obstacles to personal change are more relevant than the truth of the causes

Sounds nice but I dont think so

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Your post is full of illogical conclusions and misinterpretations to try and bolster your opinion...

Please point them out so that we can discuss them. Thanks in advance.

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If blacks didn't commit such a large percentage of violent crime and if 1/3 black men didn't commit crime racism would go down. Racism is built out of fear and fearing a race that commits a highly disproportionate amount of violent crime is self preservation. Again one third of black men have criminal records...one out of three

Ooooh... I get it... it's the old 'fear of the black man' stance you're taking! So... how does that translate to back to slavery times? Pretty sure there wasn't any fear of black people back then... and I'm pretty sure racism existed back then... and I doubt there was too much black on black crime to perpetuate the racism that black people have brought on themselves. So please... when you get the chance... explain how your above theory relates to when slavery existed. What was the cause of racism back then? Again, thanks in advance.

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So blacks commit black on black crime because of white cops? White cops make blacks turn to drugs? White cops make black kids kill black kids? White cops are responsible for kids having kids?

No one said none of these above statements. Please point out where someone did. Thanks in advance.

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And T-bone if you are successful are you saying that white racist cops didn't bring you down?

No.. I'm not saying that at all. What have I said that would lead you to that conclusion? Thanks in advance.

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The truth is that the issues at hand that cause these problems are not black problems, they are ultimately economic and family structure problems. And whether you are white black or brown......However white racist cops is not part of any of this...

What 'issues at hand'? I'd like for you to be specific because you're kind of all over the place. And again, no one said that 'white racist cops' are responsible for keeping black people down. What HAS been said is that in some ways, they've played a PART. How big a part is certainly debatable... but a part nevertheless. Your refusal to accept that is a major reason why you're having issues having a 'discussion' about that this.

In comment 12166555 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Bill2, Sonic, TBone and all What % of the issues in black neighborhoods and communities are caused by white racist cops.... I dare you to answer

LOL! You 'dare' us to answer? You are so full of yourself...

Anyway... I have no problem admitting that I can't answer that question. I don't think anyone can and I believe that's what Bill2 is trying to tell you (but you refuse to listen). To try and put a percentage on that is useless because not all black neighborhoods are the same (shocking I know!). I'd be willing to bet there are some communities where white racist cops aren't a problem for black people at all... meanwhile, there are some where it's a major issue (see Ferguson).

Not sure why you are dead set on putting all of us in one big group and saying we ALL are having the same issues. It just speaks to your closed-minded thinking and it's pretty sad actually.

Masturbation.

Only with masturbation, others don't usually have to witness it, and it usually only happens once or twice a day.

T-Bone, valiant tries, but you can have an effective conversation with someone who believes he is all-knowing and stops paying attention the second he backs away from the keyboard.

Even with my comments here, PA will insist this is all about my distortions and lack of his superior knowledge and analytical skills. He may even bring up how much money he makes (which isn't all that impressive, btw.)

In comment 12166568 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

And violent crime? You think the police are manufacturing that stuff? I am sure there is a very small % of arrests that are unwarranted, very very small but that is not the real issue.

And what about those times when there police brutality involved but there was no crime being committed?

Yet I am the only one addressing the actual causes of the issues here.

So tell me what % of black crime and issues are attributable to racist police. Give a ball park number...what are you afraid of?

If police were not racist how much do you think the violent crime rate would go down?

Why do 1 out of 3 black men have criminal records?

this has gone well...

This is the problem

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And what about those times when there police brutality involved but there was no crime being committed?

There are what? tens of thousands of police interactions per day? Everyone has a video camera in their pocket nowadays. How often are these events of police doing this? once a month or two?

So again I dare you and bill and manh and others


What % of the issues in black neighborhoods and communities are caused by white racist cops....

I dare you to answer

Is a closed-minded person ever in a position to judge whether he is the only one addressing the issues?

Try to join the conversation. Present something...

Or just continue to attack me...

I dare you to answer the question below...in your opinion

What % of the issues in black neighborhoods and communities are caused by white racist cops....

I dare you to answer

I've asked myself more than a few times why do I insist on keeping this going with him but I just can't stand sitting back and watch his ignorant posts go on and on... and then having the gall to stand there.. by himself... and act as if he's a beacon of light in the darkness of ignorance.

That so many on this thread are focused on racist police yet no one will answer their impact on the issues on the black community as far as crime, poverty or any other measure.

Are White racist cops the reason black kids are killing black kids?
Are white racist cops the reason black men have a 33% chance of having a criminal record?
Are white racist cops for babies having babies or drug use?

If it such a problem, surely the % must be high since you are all so focused on it. So lets hear it.

it to you yet, you are a racist cunt. Your points are racist, cunty ones.

I don't know

now....you supply the answer. I dare you.

Will you now switch the "debate" or answer since you know and we don't?

May flounder plopping around on the deck

Surely you can give an opinion. I have given mine and my answer is very very minimal

How come this whole thread is predicated on racist cops being the problem yet no one can give their opinion as to the % of the issues discussed here are actually attributable to white racist cops?

Is racism any part of the problem? Any?

is fear any part of the problem?

Is unsupported by the facts fear any part of the problem?

Is reducing ingrained unearned levels of fear any part of the solution?

Really? What did I say that was racist? That poverty, crime, drug laws, babies having babies, and how it is a cycle are the key issues here.

or because I don't believe that racist cops are much of an influence on these issues?

Someone was looking for a white apologist? Enter Randy

This has very little to do with white racist cops causing many of the problems in black neighborhoods. It does have to do with them affecting quality of life and individual self esteem in black neighborhoods, though. And no one should have to live with the expectations described in the Pro Publica article that I linked.

A reasonable expectation of fair and helpful treatment by the police is a right all people should have, and its direct impact on the number of crimes that occur in a given neighborhood isn't what this conversation is about, if you were only paying attention.

As discussed in the article, a pretty large proportion of middle class to upper middle class blacks have had one or more bad experiences with their local police, and in many cases have come to avoid their assistance rather than seek it. Is that a satisfactory outcome? This, of course can easily be extrapolated to poorer but also honest and honorable blacks, but the point is useful either way.

And, of course, there are a fair number of rogue police departments around the country, which is often about racism that extends beyond blacks. It's true in Cleveland, Albuquerque, now Ferguson, and no doubt many others that haven't been thoroughly analyzed. If your response is that bad policing doesn't cause black crime, then you have no idea what the subject is, let alone the answer.

I've got a song, I ain't got no melody
I'ma gonna sing it to my friends
I've got a song, I ain't got no melody
I' ma gonna sing it to my friends
Will it go round in circles
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky
Will it go round in circles
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky

Just because I am on the thread which the OP started has zilch to do with what I actually think.

very insecure people ascribe thinking to others they have no basis for knowing....its called magical thinking. its a form of insanity.

There is a PA Giants Fan who used to engage in exactly this way.

I was slow to the pattern. I should have had that second cup of coffee.

Hope you are well

Quote:

Yet I am the only one addressing the actual causes of the issues here.

No, you're really not. You THINK you are. But you're really not and it's own arrogance that will not allow you to see that.

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So tell me what % of black crime and issues are attributable to racist police. Give a ball park number...what are you afraid of?

First off, I'm not 'afraid' of anything. Secondly, I'd guess, and this is just a guess, that the percentage is very small that black crimes and issues are attributable to racist police. But then again, I never said they... no matter how many times you want to attribute that quote to me or anyone else on this thread. That's some bullshit YOU came up with. When you realize that... you may actually be able to have a discussion with the rest of us.

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If police were not racist how much do you think the violent crime rate would go down?

Honestly, not much... if at all. But then again, I never said there was a correlation between the two. Again, that's some bullshit your brought up.

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Why do 1 out of 3 black men have criminal records?

There are several factors... most of which you've told us about time and time again. Not sure why you keep throwing that statistic out over and over again though when, again, it has nothing to do with racist cops and police brutality.

To your other post directed at me:

Quote:

There are what? tens of thousands of police interactions per day? Everyone has a video camera in their pocket nowadays. How often are these events of police doing this? once a month or two?

It happens, most likely, pretty much every day I'd bet. Most times, it's not caught on camera or even if it is, it's not reported. Just because YOU refuse to see it (which doesn't surprise me one bit) doesn't mean it's not there.

Not to mention, it's pretty sad that you think it happening only once or twice a month (when it doesn't) is no big deal. I, and I think most of us sane, rational folks would tend to think that even if it happens once a month or two, that would be once a month or two too often. But hey, since (in your world) we bring it on ourselves, I guess it's ok that some of us get smacked around once a month (or two)!

Is racism any part of the problem? Any?

Not much of the problem. Most violent crime is black against black. You can argue that drug laws unfairly target blacks and I would agree with that. I have noted that drug laws are a part of the problem. Are random white racist cops a big part of the problem? No


is fear any part of the problem? Fear by who? Fear of whites of blacks? Definitely. Doesn't help that 1/3 black men have a criminal record. If you went to a place and knew that 1/3 was a criminal would you have the same level of trust of the people there as you would in a place where there was minimal crime? Answer the question please

Is unsupported by the facts fear any part of the problem?

Is reducing ingrained unearned levels of fear any part of the solution? Crime rates have to support or it doesn't matter. Look at the NY stats I provided earlier. If 48/50 muggings were performed by blacks and hispanics, no amount of teaching or learning can replace what is actually occurring.

From mg's recent post:

Quote:

As discussed in the article, a pretty large proportion of middle class to upper middle class blacks have had one or more bad experiences with their local police, and in many cases have come to avoid their assistance rather than seek it.

You see PA... if you'd bothered to read the article (since you're so respectful of others opinions) you'd have read that the incident within the article is being told by a black person who is very successful in his field. So it's not just a case of poverty... as I have said earlier.

By the way, PA, Bill2 dared you to answer some of your own questions... I have yet to see you give a % yourself (except to say it's 'minimal').

C'mon big man... what are you afraid of?

White racist cops are a very minimal part of the issue at hand.

Glad to hear, now lets start the 20th thread about these issues but not one about the actual issues in the black community. lol

Let me ask another question:

How much of what is perceived as White cop racism is due to cops having to spend the majority of their time dealing with black on black crime?

.05% - how is that?

I absolutely believe cops harass blacks. I have heard terrible stories from friends and colleagues. Middle class, educated. If you bothered to read what I wrote early on (Oddly the same thing I am accused of) you would have seen this already.

What we don't at all agree on is the issue at hand. Starting from that framework, there can be no agreement.

You really are remarkably obtuse. And when you are the only one who sees things a given way among a set of bright to very bright people, that should give you a clue.

Not even close in any way. Certainly not politically. Despite the accusation I have never voted Republican that I can think of...Maybe one locally but not even sure of that

In comment 12166555 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Bill2, Sonic, TBone and all What % of the issues in black neighborhoods and communities are caused by white racist cops.... I dare you to answer

Holy shit. Nobody can give an accurate % of that. And neither can you. And stop simplifying it into "racist white cops". Jesus fucking christ, you try and reduce everything into binaries.

The fact that the legal and police system is stacked against a specific race or group of people has a profound affect on how the statistics you giddily recite are what they are.

Surely they can give an estimate...How much of these issues in the black community are we going to blame on white racist cops?

if I am the only White guy here (and right wing nut) to have given a young Black man personal advice to be careful how to act around police as to not give them an excuse. I sort of believe that anyone that does not see this is happening is sticking their head in the sand.

In comment 12166690 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

White racist cops are a very minimal part of the issue at hand. Glad to hear, now lets start the 20th thread about these issues but not one about the actual issues in the black community. lol Let me ask another question: How much of what is perceived as White cop racism is due to cops having to spend the majority of their time dealing with black on black crime?

What you seem to not understand is this thread was started talking about police brutality against minorities. YOU introduced the 'black communities' aspect into this discussion and am having everyone pretty much looking around at each other and asking, 'What da hell is he talking about?'.

In comment 12166638 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

That so many on this thread are focused on racist police yet no one will answer their impact on the issues on the black community as far as crime, poverty or any other measure. Are White racist cops the reason black kids are killing black kids? Are white racist cops the reason black men have a 33% chance of having a criminal record? Are white racist cops for babies having babies or drug use? If it such a problem, surely the % must be high since you are all so focused on it. So lets hear it.

1) Is a legal and police system stacked against black people responsible for black people looking at the system as an enemy, and falling into a life of crime? To an extent.

2) Does a system stacked against black people result in black people having a higher % chance of having a criminal record? DUH. OBVIOUSLY IT DOES (to an extent).

3) Does a system stacked against black people result in black people having kids too early or having kids while abusing drugs? To an extent - the things you listed are symptomatic of people trapped in generations of poverty. You don't think a legal system stacked against a group of people would have a sharp economic impact on the said group? It obviously does.

And this is what my point is - you can't just extract certain parts of the equation. Everything is interconnected. And stop boiling it down to "racist white cops". First of all, a racist cop of ANY nationality is just as much of a problem as a "white racist cop".

And it's NOT just cops, it's the legal system as a whole (though yes, cops are a big part of the legal system as a whole).

In comment 12166696 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

I absolutely believe cops harass blacks. I have heard terrible stories from friends and colleagues. Middle class, educated. If you bothered to read what I wrote early on (Oddly the same thing I am accused of) you would have seen this already.

Actually, I did read that. It came across as a typical 'Hey, I have black friends!' proclamation that some white people who have subtle or overt racist thoughts tend to say to be honest with you. Glad to hear you've heard 'stories'. How about you share one or two of them with us? I'd like to hear what they went through.

You want to discuss cops interaction and brutality with the black community but don't want to discuss why these interactions are taking place in the first place?

Again how many interactions do white cops have in the black community, and how many are blacks a victim of brutality?

See, you can't address how cops are interacting with blacks without understanding that white cops spend an incredibly disproportionate amount of time in black neighborhoods. Then blame the cops for being jaded over time but never address the reason all this crime exists in the first place.....

The crime is the issue, the rest are symptoms or more like diseases.

In comment 12166677 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Is racism any part of the problem? Any? Not much of the problem. Most violent crime is black against black. You can argue that drug laws unfairly target blacks and I would agree with that. I have noted that drug laws are a part of the problem. Are random white racist cops a big part of the problem? No is fear any part of the problem? Fear by who? Fear of whites of blacks? Definitely. Doesn't help that 1/3 black men have a criminal record. If you went to a place and knew that 1/3 was a criminal would you have the same level of trust of the people there as you would in a place where there was minimal crime? Answer the question please Is unsupported by the facts fear any part of the problem? Is reducing ingrained unearned levels of fear any part of the solution? Crime rates have to support or it doesn't matter. Look at the NY stats I provided earlier. If 48/50 muggings were performed by blacks and hispanics, no amount of teaching or learning can replace what is actually occurring.

Spoken like someone who has never experienced any form of racism.

The fact that you think institutional bias, particularly those in the police department, is not part of the problem is laughable and idiotic.

And on another note, contending that solving all "black" issues would solve all the problems you have posited also makes no sense. I don't think the Indian community has many of the problems you listed. So how come people in the Indian community are still afraid of the police?

That's it. Every time a white person not on your side discussed their black friends and colleagues it is "I have white friends" because I don't tow the same line as you.

You can prove him wrong a hundred times over and he still won't get it

But your posting style is very familiar..

Stop bringing up "black on black crime" or "black issues".

This thread is NOT about that. This thread is about the findings of a report of a police department of interest, and HOW they treat blacks.

You're trying to deflect the issue by interjecting this bullshit. Stop steering the conversation to that.

How about this: whether or not "racist white cops" are "part of the problem"...

...should racist white cops EXIST, and should excuses be made for them? (which you've already done - "its human nature guys! blacks commit more crime! it's their own fault cops are racist! duh!")

All the other garbage you're bringing up is just noise. The point is that the findings of this report should NOT be tolerated and should NEVER occur.

In comment 12166723 Big Al said:

Quote:

if I am the only White guy here (and right wing nut) to have given a young Black man personal advice to be careful how to act around police as to not give them an excuse. I sort of believe that anyone that does not see this is happening is sticking their head in the sand.

Doubtful...because I think most good, rational white men who have seen what's been going on in this country (particularly over the past several months), and would care to impart some of that wisdom onto a potential unsuspecting black kid, see what's going on and acknowledge that there are some bad people out there... of all races, creeds, religions and even occupations and just because a guy has on a uniform and a shield doesn't necessarily mean that he's there to 'Protect and Serve'. Some, if not most, are... but there is definitely more than a few who aren't.

In comment 12166745 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

You want to discuss cops interaction and brutality with the black community but don't want to discuss why these interactions are taking place in the first place? Again how many interactions do white cops have in the black community, and how many are blacks a victim of brutality? See, you can't address how cops are interacting with blacks without understanding that white cops spend an incredibly disproportionate amount of time in black neighborhoods. Then blame the cops for being jaded over time but never address the reason all this crime exists in the first place..... The crime is the issue, the rest are symptoms or more like diseases.

making excuses for how cops treat black people.

It's so easy to point the blame when it's something that would never affect you ever. My best friend growing up is black. I lived in East Brunswick, NJ, an affluent suburban town. The number of times he was pulled over while I was driving with him was MIND BOGGLING.

Are you going to feed me the excuse that the cops in my town were conditioned to think this way because they "dealt with" black people all the time? Because that's a pile of steaming bullshit.

So if 48/50 muggings are committed by blacks and Hispanics. you believe these numbers are skewed because white cops ignore it when white people rob other people?

See what you guys and I mean all of you miss is the following. You are unwilling to address the ultimate issues at the core here. Crime, Poverty, drugs etc....

Everything else is in reaction to these issues. If all the crime is in black neighborhoods, do you think white cops become jaded? Even black cops can become jaded against their own race...

White people shouldn't just blacks or be afraid of them based on the color of their skin. However, when most of the violent crime is committed by one race, and one out of three black men has a criminal record, there is naturally going to be trust issues.

And on the flip side to this which none of you probably even think of is that blacks become racist against whites because they think whites are racist again them especially the police...again its a cycle.

But none of this all matters until you address the actual core issues which you guys won't even begin to discuss yet has been my focus.

You guys focus on the outlier, and the symptom, and I am focused on the cause.

In comment 12166753 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

That's it. Every time a white person not on your side discussed their black friends and colleagues it is "I have white friends" because I don't tow the same line as you.

No... not every time. I'm just talking about YOU.

There you go again, trying to lump everyone in the same boat.

I addressed the real issues. You guys are chasing symptoms. I lead with my heart and mind on this. You lead with your anger. I get attacked by the same circle jerk of people here and I don't care because I am coming at this from an educated, statistic based place.

I have compassion, and you have excuses.

Sorry.

Compassion is leading with the other persons heart in mind.

Bill2!

Seems based on this idea, none of you have compassion for police that have to go into these neighborhoods and deal with these issues....Again proving my point.

compassion for police officers in low income areas?

In comment 12167089 GMenLTS said:

Quote:

compassion for police officers in low income areas?

His.

He seems to do that a lot.

I am accused on not having compassion because I see the problem differently but I can't accuse you guys of the same because your attention is focused on a few bad cops. So much compassion you guys have yet not one of you mentioned it once.

Note the only % or amount of blame on Racist cops the couple of you were willing to put was small but yet you guys go on and on and on about it....yet nothing of the larger problem.....

This has been educational and what we have learned is that this problem will never get better really....at least until the items I note occur...

In comment 12166767 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

So if 48/50 muggings are committed by blacks and Hispanics. you believe these numbers are skewed because white cops ignore it when white people rob other people? See what you guys and I mean all of you miss is the following. You are unwilling to address the ultimate issues at the core here. Crime, Poverty, drugs etc.... Everything else is in reaction to these issues. If all the crime is in black neighborhoods, do you think white cops become jaded? Even black cops can become jaded against their own race... White people shouldn't just blacks or be afraid of them based on the color of their skin. However, when most of the violent crime is committed by one race, and one out of three black men has a criminal record, there is naturally going to be trust issues. And on the flip side to this which none of you probably even think of is that blacks become racist against whites because they think whites are racist again them especially the police...again its a cycle. But none of this all matters until you address the actual core issues which you guys won't even begin to discuss yet has been my focus. You guys focus on the outlier, and the symptom, and I am focused on the cause.

WTF are you babbling on about?

That particular statistic is what it is. But in general, poor people commit more crime. And being arrested breaks up families, makes it impossible for people to get jobs after getting out of jail, and makes families poor. And you said it yourself, that drug laws disproportionately affect blacks. And people that grow up in crime areas, see cops as the enemy. And by seeing black people as the enemy, they fall into a life of crime. And by falling into a life of crime, they give police more of a reason to profile. And if the government is using the police department to generate revenue instead of keeping the peace, they're going to profile more and target blacks. And by targeting blacks, they create more distrust.

This isn't any justification of that particular stat, and that large rambling chain of events wasn't going anywhere specific. I'm just trying to get through your head that its ALL CONNECTED.

Having said that, if cops racially profile (which they often do), obviously black people will be arrested at a higher clip. Duh. Taking one statistic doesn't change the intrinsic nature of profiling resulting in higher arrests for blacks.

Your idea of addressing the "core issue" is basically saying "hey black people, this is all your fault, look at what you've done to yourself". Without taking into account that they are treated very differently by the police and the legal system, that they were consciously economically repressed by the government until a few years ago.

You're treating "racist white cops" (read: institutional bias against blacks) as a "symptom" and the other issues as "core". The truth is that the institutional bias is one of the main engines that drives all of the things you listed.

The way you are trying to absolve the concept of cops targeting blacks is ridiculous. You can call it a "symptom", or a "root cause", but the point is that its probably both, and no matter WHAT it is, it's WRONG.

But violent crime is what it is. You think WHite cops are focused on black for violent crime or are blacks committing an extremely disproportionate amount of violent crime? The answer is obviously yes.

How does a cop racially profile for violent crime in a manner to skew statistics?

mouths.

I've literally posted a few times on the thread. Only about one, thinking you were film or similar, and two, that you put words in people's mouths.

Speaking for myself, you're right about one thing, the black on black crime IS the biggest problem by far. Having experience teaching in low income areas, the cops have all the respect in the world from me. Especially since many actually make amazing efforts to interact with and engage the youths in a positive manner despite knowing the risks of being that close to the chaos.

But you're absolving the bad apples and worse, you excuse them.

(see how that works?)

You're the one who chose to come on and generalize an entire race based on the small percentage of those in the race being involved with the violence.

You chose to put words in people's mouths.

You chose to make excuses for cops but not blacks affected by the same circumstances.

Own it. Or don't. Your choice.

In comment 12167117 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

I am accused on not having compassion because I see the problem differently but I can't accuse you guys of the same because your attention is focused on a few bad cops. So much compassion you guys have yet not one of you mentioned it once. Note the only % or amount of blame on Racist cops the couple of you were willing to put was small but yet you guys go on and on and on about it....yet nothing of the larger problem..... This has been educational and what we have learned is that this problem will never get better really....at least until the items I note occur...

LOL! Yeah right. Because you seem to have such a firm grasp on racism that the only experience you have with it is from stories from your black friends.

I have addressed the biggest issues that race is dealing with.

Amazing that someone finally admits the truth though.

perhaps the problem with this toxic environment in Ferguson is an extremely complex matter that involves both (but not limited to) economics and race? You speak as if this is a exclusively a matter of simple economics, but choose to ignore the actual stats showing how even the affluent blacks aren't above the fray of racial profiling. Your inability to even make an attempt to empathize with other opinions on here is quite revealing about your own biases, and what type of person you truly are.

Another moronic statement. How do you know that is my only experience? I am not black so my friends and colleagues stories would be how I would get this info. I also grew up in the Bronx, as a minority really in a mostly black/Hispanic neighborhood. But tell yourself whatever you need to in order to get through your delusion of the real issues....

Based on these discussions, it is becoming obvious that this divide is only going to get worse.

You guys are much more patient than I am.

I agree that it is an issue. Never argued that it wasn't. I believe it is a symptom of the larger issues. People need to latch on to this white cop racism idea rather then deal with the actual issues. How many posts did we have to go through before anyone else was willing to admit that black on black crime was the biggest issue?

No one would be willing to give a % of issues to black communities caused by white cop racism or abuse.

The reason we have the profiling, and the abuse is more of a math problem then anything else. If most of the violent crime is in a certain area, committed by certain looking people, it is human nature right or wrong for these things to happen. You begin to eliminate the causes, you eliminate the latter.

In comment 12167151 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

I agree that it is an issue. Never argued that it wasn't. I believe it is a symptom of the larger issues. People need to latch on to this white cop racism idea rather then deal with the actual issues. How many posts did we have to go through before anyone else was willing to admit that black on black crime was the biggest issue? No one would be willing to give a % of issues to black communities caused by white cop racism or abuse. The reason we have the profiling, and the abuse is more of a math problem then anything else. If most of the violent crime is in a certain area, committed by certain looking people, it is human nature right or wrong for these things to happen. You begin to eliminate the causes, you eliminate the latter.

biggest issue in what?!?!?!?

black on black crime is the biggest issue in cops mistreating blacks/minorities?

You speak in generalities. It's the biggest issue in WHAT? Be specific.

is a symptom of a toxic environment.

In comment 12167130 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

But violent crime is what it is. You think WHite cops are focused on black for violent crime or are blacks committing an extremely disproportionate amount of violent crime? The answer is obviously yes. How does a cop racially profile for violent crime in a manner to skew statistics?

I don't know. But what I do know is that violent crime is often a symptom of poverty. Additionally, the way the legal system (including but not limited to police) treats blacks, perpetuates poverty. It also provides an ample breeding ground for an "us vs the cops" mentality through a number of ways, which has an impact on crime.

I mean, what's the alternative that you would suggest to that concept? That black people are inherently more violent?

The whole point here is that nobody, including T-bone, has disagreed that there are issues that need to be worked out in black communities. EVERY community has issues that they need to work out. However, you are using that as a reason to absolve the police of all blame with regards to the way they treat black people (and honestly minorities in general).

I'll bring it up again... my father is a 60 year old Indian physician. Why wouldn't he trust the cops? You keep saying you don't like police officers, but then constantly make excuses for the behavior of a "few bad apples".

Think about how fucked up it is that there are entire groups of people who are AFRAID of the people who are supposed to be protecting them because of the color of their skin.

Stop trying to find reasons to justify it.

Has there even been a point in this thread where you've come out and said that the findings of this report are unacceptable?

Wrong. We agree again. I note this over and over as well...I have been the one here actually focused on these items. economics, poverty, drugs, drug laws, etc...

I am white middle class regular guy and I don't trust the cops. Not trusting the cops is not a black thing believe it or not.

I don't know. But what I do know is that violent crime is often a symptom of poverty. Additionally, the way the legal system (including but not limited to police) treats blacks, perpetuates poverty. It also provides an ample breeding ground for an "us vs the cops" mentality through a number of ways, which has an impact on crime.

Quote:

I mean, what's the alternative that you would suggest to that concept? That black people are inherently more violent? The whole point here is that nobody, including T-bone, has disagreed that there are issues that need to be worked out in black communities. EVERY community has issues that they need to work out. However, you are using that as a reason to absolve the police of all blame with regards to the way they treat black people (and honestly minorities in general).

I am saying that the amount of blame on cops is ridiculously overhyped because while it it terrible it is not cause to the issue and more of a symptom. It makes a nice scapegoat and talking point and gets people emotional but it is not the biggest issue. Like I keep saying, no one really talks about the real issue.

You are trying to pinpoint a starting point on a circle.

There is no starting point. It's a circle.

What's really fucked up is that you're trying to claim the actions and behavior of the police either:
a) aren't on this circle, or
b) are justified.

Cops that stop-and-frisk a 16 year old kid who is minding his own business will have a profound affect on how he views the police. Kids or teens who see their father or brother get roughed up by the police for a minor infraction will have a profound impact on them. And this type of impact only perpetuates this cycle.

the difference between the legal/law enforcement part of this cycle and other parts of the cycle is that we EXPECT better from our government/law enforcement/legal system/people of authority. They have a moral obligation to society.

You know how you sound? You basically make it sound like "fuck those animals, its their fault. If the blacks weren't such criminals, they wouldn't be in this mess".

That is how you sound. If you think this is the truth, then we all know the content of your character, and I'd have no problem telling you that I'd never associate with anyone of your ilk (lol ilk).

If that's not what you mean, then please, explain what you mean. Because that is pretty much what it sounds like.

In comment 12167166 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

I am saying that the amount of blame on cops is ridiculously overhyped because while it it terrible it is not cause to the issue and more of a symptom. It makes a nice scapegoat and talking point and gets people emotional but it is not the biggest issue. Like I keep saying, no one really talks about the real issue.

If this is your thesis, it's patently absurd. If anything, it's the BIGGEST driver of all of this.

If you don't think the way police treat blacks is a huge part of the equation, you're in complete and total denial.

You also say this from an ivory tower. It must be easy to make that diagnosis as someone who has never once had to experience anything close to what many minorities deal with on a daily basis.

In comment 12167142 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Another moronic statement. How do you know that is my only experience? I am not black so my friends and colleagues stories would be how I would get this info. I also grew up in the Bronx, as a minority really in a mostly black/Hispanic neighborhood. But tell yourself whatever you need to in order to get through your delusion of the real issues.... Based on these discussions, it is becoming obvious that this divide is only going to get worse.

Honestly... it's based on everything that you've posted on this thread. You just seem to be very ignorant when it comes to not only the problems within the black community but how the relationship with law enforcement and the black community, as a whole, works. You actually come across as one of the more clueless posters I've ever seen on here in my 15+ years of coming to this site... and that's sayin something.

What % of violent crime, poverty in black communities is caused by white racist cops. It must be awfully high in your opinion.

Quote:

If anything, it's the BIGGEST driver of all of this.

Really the biggest driver?

And this

Quote:

You know how you sound? You basically make it sound like "fuck those animals, its their fault. If the blacks weren't such criminals, they wouldn't be in this mess".

Which again shows the issue which is why this issue will never get resolved. You misidentify the cause....

There are plenty of black people that agree with me. My idea that the biggest issues are black on black crime, drug laws, poverty, etc.....are hardly controversial.

They only become so when you are trying to place the blame for the issues on white racist cops,.

In comment 12167191 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

There are plenty of black people that agree with me. My idea that the biggest issues are black on black crime, drug laws, poverty, etc.....are hardly controversial. They only become so when you are trying to place the blame for the issues on white racist cops,.

Almost nobody agrees with you so stop it.

Not anonymous people on a message board

If you have a problem with this

"My idea that the biggest issues are black on black crime, drug laws, poverty, etc.....are hardly controversial"

Then you have no clue

In comment 12167191 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

There are plenty of black people that agree with me. My idea that the biggest issues are black on black crime, drug laws, poverty, etc.....are hardly controversial. They only become so when you are trying to place the blame for the issues on white racist cops,.

I'm sure they do... to your face. LOL!

In comment 12167200 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Not anonymous people on a message board If you have a problem with this "My idea that the biggest issues are black on black crime, drug laws, poverty, etc.....are hardly controversial" Then you have no clue

Exactly. Isn't the big issue people have with the internet is that they speak their mind too freely? Because it IS anonymous?

Again, stupid point on your part.

You are using crime, drugs, poverty as your demonstration of how black people are bad and therefore of COURSE white cops will be racist!!!!

Take your act out of here. Almost nobody here agrees with you which should tell you something but the fact that it doesn't is telling (to the rest of us)

You are a moron. I don't mean that as a personal attack but by definition. I never said anything like that but it takes half a brain to understand that.

Well if you are right and the black community doesn't think that the biggest issues are black on black crime, drug laws, poverty, etc, then things will never get better.

In comment 12167227 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Well if you are right and the black community doesn't think that the biggest issues are black on black crime, drug laws, poverty, etc, then things will never get better.

I never said that the black community doesn't think that those factors you listed aren't big because we all already know they are.

What I did say... and continue to say... is that they have little to no correlation to police brutality and racism. To me, THAT notion is silly.

You have an amazing ability to twist a person's words around you know that? You've continuously done that throughout this thread and have been called on it several times and yet you keep doing that.

Quote:

The judge in Ferguson, Missouri, who is accused of fixing traffic tickets for himself and colleagues while inflicting a punishing regime of fines and fees on the city’s residents, also owes more than $170,000 in unpaid taxes. Ronald J Brockmeyer, whose court allegedly jailed impoverished defendants unable to pay fines of a few hundred dollars, has a string of outstanding debts to the US government dating back to 2007, according to tax filings obtained by the Guardian from authorities in Missouri.

continued ... - ( New Window )

In comment 12167401 sphinx said:

Quote:

Quote: The judge in Ferguson, Missouri, who is accused of fixing traffic tickets for himself and colleagues while inflicting a punishing regime of fines and fees on the city’s residents, also owes more than $170,000 in unpaid taxes. Ronald J Brockmeyer, whose court allegedly jailed impoverished defendants unable to pay fines of a few hundred dollars, has a string of outstanding debts to the US government dating back to 2007, according to tax filings obtained by the Guardian from authorities in Missouri. continued ... - ( New Window )

Yeah he is a fucking scumbag who should have been disbarred years ago

Quote:

“Even as Ferguson city officials maintain the harmful stereotype that black individuals lack personal responsibility – and continue to cite this lack of personal responsibility as the cause of the disparate impact of Ferguson’s practices – white city officials condone a striking lack of personal responsibility among themselves and their friends,” the Justice Department investigators said, in a scathing report on the city’s administration.

These investigators are obviously morons. Don't they know that if we'd just stop black on black crime these white city officials wouldn't be condoning a 'striking lack of personal responsibility among themselves and their friends'?!

Don't sweat it PA. I'm sure one day all these fools will wake up and realize that it's all our (black people's) fault.

Black people just have to stop being poor.

Pretty damned simple.

Now if they'd only just do it.

more than the opportunity to gang up on someone who is clearly wrong and tell them they clearly wrong over and over again. It's like a virtual curb stomping.

In comment 12167474 chris r said:

Quote:

more than the opportunity to gang up on someone who is clearly wrong and tell them they clearly wrong over and over again. It's like a virtual curb stomping.

Yup.

We can't all be so wonderfully above the fray like yourself, sweetie.

In comment 12167474 chris r said:

Quote:

more than the opportunity to gang up on someone who is clearly wrong and tell them they clearly wrong over and over again. It's like a virtual curb stomping.

You just can't help yourself can you?

to be more respectful (afraid) of authority (po po)

In comment 12167474 chris r said:

Quote:

more than the opportunity to gang up on someone who is clearly wrong and tell them they clearly wrong over and over again. It's like a virtual curb stomping.

T-Bone is the loathsome leader of the bullies. I am glad BBI has a conscience that we can look up to who tells it like it is.

CNN)Racist emails -- like one that depicted President Obama as a chimpanzee -- resulted in three Ferguson, Missouri, city employees resigning or being fired, the city spokesman said Friday.

Police officers Capt. Rick Henke and Sgt. William Mudd resigned Thursday over the emails discovered during the U.S. Department of Justice investigation of racial prejudice in the city's police and judicial system, city spokesman Jeff Small said on Friday, citing the city attorney.

The city's top court clerk, Mary Ann Twitty, was fired earlier this week in connection with the emails, Small said.

Several employees forwarded the emails but until now none had been disciplined, the report said.

continued ... - ( New Window )

In comment 12167474 chris r said:

Quote:

more than the opportunity to gang up on someone who is clearly wrong and tell them they clearly wrong over and over again. It's like a virtual curb stomping.

I'm going out on a non-PC limb and blame the victim. He asked for it.

In comment 12167493 Big Al said:

Quote:

In comment 12167474 chris r said: Quote: more than the opportunity to gang up on someone who is clearly wrong and tell them they clearly wrong over and over again. It's like a virtual curb stomping. T-Bone is the loathsome leader of the bullies. I am glad BBI has a conscience that we can look up to who tells it like it is.

Dammit... they're on to me.

Radar-like instincts prevail once again.

PA...I disagree with your approach, framework and analysis. Imho, its not complete nor compassionate nor are symptoms ever causes...and labeling symptoms as causes is a clue of closed minded incompleteness. Things like this are rarely so neat. You know why? Humans are involved.

I do know that the tactics used to discuss are infuriating (as you know) and I know for sure compassion and your starting point are incompatible.

Here is why:

Black on black crime, economics, unemployment, family structure is never a cause and always a symptom.

Like native Americans, this is a two hundred and fifty year old problem. That's seven to ten generations still in PTSD trauma from forceable violence to family, self esteem, social coherence and religion and comfort and dignity.

that alone should stop any of us from claiming certainty.

Narrowing the problem to the problem of a segment is the first flaw. They are Americans. Not blacks. Americans. Its an American problem. and for 250 years it has been the American stain. the American Original Sin. Anytime a segment of a society is perpetually unable to move and enjoy priveledge at the same rate of other segments...you have a society that pays a huge price in lost vision, false claims, myopic civic society, myopic citizens, expensive controls, misguided social policies and the inability to sustain the driving force of its national myth ....this great noble experiment and last hope of mankind...a nation of the people, by the people and for the people.

for 250 years this is the problem that cost the most lives, money, time, disappointment and misguided shortsightedness.

these words are 150 years old:

"In giving freedom, we assure freedom to the free - honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth. The way is plain, peaceful, generous, just - a way which, if followed, the world will forever applaud, and God must forever bless."

except we did not yet get the job done for far too many...yet.

any time a problem is elusive, systemic and all of us pay and all of us partially succeed and partially fail....its an American problem.

"they" are not blacks with black problems. they are Americans with an American problem...America has not solved.

that's the problem...all the rest are symptoms and derivatives. we failed so far.

"A house divided against itself cannot stand" is not a trite phrase...its a 5000 year old truth

all nations who failed to assimilate their segments eventually spent to much energy/cost instead of the same resources spent on being externally competitive.


"Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and can not long retain it."

Lastly...in thinking through the issue I learned two things:

If we don't start with the right and comprehensive understanding and problem definition our conclusions as to what is wrong will fall short and our expectations of the time and effort to solve it will fall short.

secondly...sorry...I realized why you remind me of Film Giant. Not just because of the thread tactics to other posters...but because he also had significant problems understanding America

took me a while to read through 24 hours of this stuff.

First, yeah Ferguson is not the only municipality/city that essentially uses the police as a source to balance the budget. For anyone here who lives in northern NJ, just drive at 55 MPH on the Palisades Parkway and see what will happen to you. Yes, 5MPH over and you will find yourself in a lone line of people willing to write a check for $350 so your horrible speeding offense is not reported to the state. This however, is no different than how the federal government uses the IRS as it's tool to do the same. Railroading many people who do not deserve it. It is all bad.

Second, it is unfortunate that the racism and poor treatment that occurs in Ferguson (by many in law enforcement there) had to come to a head over an incident where in THIS particular instance, the cop was apparently not at fault. I am sure there were countless incidents in Ferguson that were slam dunk cases of racism and it is too bad that they (whoever they are. Media, Sharpton, Holder, etc) chose THIS particular shooting/death to use as "the" incident when it sounds like there must have been others that were irrefutable.

Sonic Youth made a good point about the "circle". At what point does the circle start? IMO, BOTH SIDES have to change. The cops have to change but also the minorities also have to somehow change their views of the cops simultaneously. If only one side changes for the better, it will not work.

Random question that I don't have the answer to. Are the black cops who work in places like Ferguson also racist against blacks? Thinking they might be but when they do something it is not viewed as being racist or profiling since they are also black.

Another question... why don't more minorities go to the police academy? I hear (and agree with) statements made that there should be more minority cops in the minority neighborhoods.

Where Bill2 drops the fuckin mic.

Wish more would listen to him.

"Black on black crime, economics, unemployment, family structure is never a cause and always a symptom."

They were caused by something but if we fix the symptoms, it seems we fix the problem. I think it would work to focus on the symptoms. I am probably being dumb but there is something circular here I cannot quite state but feel.

Due to this report released 2 days ago.

Quote:

Two Ferguson police officers have reportedly resigned and a court clerk has been fired for sending or receiving racist emails, according to the St. Louis Dispatch. The dismissals come just two days after the Department of Justice released a damning report exposing the Ferguson Police Department as fundamentally racist. The Dispatch reports that Capt. Rick Henke and Sgt. William Mudd resigned on Thursday; Court Clerk Mary Ann Twitty was fired on Wednesday.

I have to question if some of you commenting on this article actually read the article.

This is enough to get ANY American's blood to boil.

The police force viewing citizens as a revenue source, instead of people to protect and serve? (with the directive coming from city government)?

Routinely pulling people over without probably cause, disregarding constitutional rights, and taking mental illness as a sign of belligerence?

Demanding compliance when lacking legal authority?

Using the amount of revenue being produced by police as the primary means of their performance review?

Objective statistics that show the police force purposely targets black?

Cops competing to see who can write the most violations and citations in one single stop?

Government acting as sketchy as a payday loan company?

Code:

In one case, a black woman was cited for parking her car illegally, and assessed a $151 fine, plus fees. When she was unable to pay, or failed to appear in court, more fees and fines were added, twice she was arrested, and the debt kept mounting. Court records show that she twice attempted to make partial payments of $25 and $50, but the court returned those payments, refusing to accept anything less than payment in full ... As of December 2014, over seven years later, despite initially owing a $151 fine and having already paid $550, she still owed $541.

LOOK AT THIS STORY FROM THE REPORT:

[code]In one case, the police confronted a black man sitting in his car at a park, accused him of being a pedophile, ordered him out of his car for a "pat-down," and when he would not consent to a search of his car, arrested him.
One charge, Making a False Declaration, was for initially providing the short form of his first name (e.g., “Mike” instead of “Michael”), and an address which, although legitimate, was different from the one on his driver’s license. Another charge was for not wearing a seat belt, even though he was seated in a parked car. The officer also charged the man both with having an expired operator’s license, and with having no operator’s license in his possession. The man told us that, because of these charges, he lost his job as a contractor with the federal government that he had held for years.
[/code[


Anyone defending this needs to actually re-read the article in question. This is fucking disgusting and pathetic. This is NOT what our country stands for. There is no justification, there are no excuses - this is fucking pathetic. It sickens me that people read this and try to justify it as "well, maybe if blacks just stopped robbing eachother"...

Nobody deserves what this police department in Ferguson did to them. That story about them charging the inmate they beat with "destruction of government propery" for bleeding on their uniforms as they beat him in a prison cell doesn't seem so far-fetched now, does it?

What is really troubling to me is how some people's first inclinations afte reading this article wasn't to recoil in horror, but instead provide justifications for police. That just screams "us vs them".

The truth is, this should be ALL OF US against police departments like this. This is a fucking downright travesty. And those of you who just commented without reading the article (you know who you are)... READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE.

FERGUSON • The mayor of this embattled city said Friday that it would take some time to determine whether a Department of Justice report issued Wednesday, which highlighted a pattern of abuses by the city’s police and courts, fairly represented the facts.

But Mayor James Knowles III said the city wanted to make whatever changes it could to convince the U.S. government that “these sorts of things don’t happen in the city of Ferguson.”

Link - ( New Window )

so not contesting or supporting it. you do need to be careful using bivariate statistics to arrive at conclusions.

on a side note, and generally speaking - some doj recommendations can be very helpful for agencies. lot of them are various means of risk management.

Quote:

On Monday, the Supreme Court of Missouri announced that all of Ferguson's current municipal cases will be transferred to a state appeals judge in order to "help restore public trust and confidence," the Associated Press reports. The move comes in the wake of last week's scathing Justice Department report which, among other troubling revelations, concluded that the Ferguson court was "constitutionally deficient" and acted "not with the primary goal of administering justice or protecting the rights of the accused, but of maximizing revenue."

link - ( New Window )

They described every small to mid size town in most of America. Attached a racist label to it but police being mostly a revenue generating arm of the government first is hardly new.

revenue raising aspect of law enforcement is a problem that should have been addressed a very long time ago in this country.

What a load of shit in our last response. Black people are black. I am white, some are Hispanic and we all check off some friggin box. If my posts earlier were masturbatory, then you are just looking for someone to jerk you off with yours.

Are you sure we are all American? One person that worked for me was African. He was certainly hassled by police and had the same issues discussed here. But he was not American. Again, there are many issues to be dealt with here but the biggest and most important by far are black on black crime, poverty, drug laws, criminal records. ....

If you want to chase the racial bogeyman as the cause to the issue, go for it...and will just be kicking the can the road further and the issue will not get better.

We all know this is how it is. We all know cops generate revenue. Speed traps, quickly or hard to see speed limit signs, just get your ticket reduced by the DA so no points...

Its a shakedown but it is not just a black people thing. We all know it and have known it. Its revenue generation.

.
Link - ( New Window )

so what's your solution

Even our good buddy PA Giants has been bemoaning the entrenched system; much of the embarassment of this thread has been about where to place blame, and that doesn't really matter so long as the culture is changed.

Three officers and one clerk gone on a staff that misrepresented its community by a count of 15-25. And unlike Wilson, their reputation isn't as maligned so they can continue to work in their chosen career.

In comment 12167569 Bill2 said:

Quote:

Black on black crime, economics, unemployment, family structure is never a cause and always a symptom.

Oh, I am so using that.

School is in session. As always, great job, Professor Bill2!

In comment 12172091 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

Quote:

so what's your solution

Ending black on black crime. He seems to think that by doing that, that will greatly reduce racism in this country.

I think I finally am getting (somewhat) an understanding of PA's thinking. He seems to think that racism is strictly fear-based and, I'm guessing, a majority of racist people in this country are racist because of fear of black people. While I do not doubt that in some cases this may be the case, I'm not sure this is the case with most (as he seems to suggest)... or even half... of racist people throughout the country. Again, he had/has no response when I ask him if 'fear' is the main reason for racist attitudes in this country... how does that explain that attitude during slavery? How about during the 60's and 70's when black on black crime was at it's lowest?

I'm still waiting for a response to this question.

You should use this quoted item since it is false and illogical. It suggests that there is no cause and effect to these outcomes which is obviously false. It goes right along with the rest of you arguments

Quote:

Black on black crime, economics, unemployment, family structure is never a cause and always a symptom.

More bull crap here

Quote:

Again, he had/has no response when I ask him if 'fear' is the main reason for racist attitudes in this country... how does that explain that attitude during slavery?

I have given the answer numerous times. Of course fear is a major driver. It is self preservation. That is the basis of racism. WTF does slavery really have to do with it? You want to buy in to some sort of long road to climb....fine but most people in this country have no connection to being slave owners so there is no connection or guilt.

Young people understand this more and more. Racism is becoming less and less because young people recognize how stupid it is and it doesn't assimilate with them in most places.

Ferguson was such a mess because as usual, the cause was headed by a thug who just robbed a store in a violent manner and was caught on video. Then Wilson shoots him and people want to use Brown as the victim. This is the whole problem in a nutshell.

Day after day of news, thread after thread here and no one gives a shit about kids dying in Chicago every day. No we care about a thug. And spare me the Ferguson PD because that is not what people say. They still say "hands up don't shoot" and that never even fucking happened. It makes the cause look like a bunch of ignorant morons.

Solving the problem will take some serious leadership in the black community, stop making excuses. Clear criminal records of non violent crime. Vigorously convict and put away violent offenders. Change drug laws. Start 2nd chance programs with an eye towards education and clean criminal records as a goal. Continue working and de-incentivize kids from having kids....etc...

...had it been an isolated incident in a town without what we now know for certain were deep, deep problems regarding the relationship with Police and African Americans in that community, the protests never could have grown that large.

Ferguson was a powder keg.

The shooting of Mike Brown was simply the match. Had it not been Brown, given the environment of that town - it would have certainly been someone else. It wasn't a matter of 'if', it was a matter of 'when'.

Quote:

Ferguson had nothing to do with Mike Brown...

Come on now.....

Lets not ignore how many people there were not even from there....

It was some secret that everyone in the country knew about this evil little town known as Ferguson....lol...please..

So they burned their town down...Not the white side though but their own community...makes sense huh?

So if they all knew about this ahead of time and how Ferguson was so evil....Where are the protests in places where black kids are dying every day...actual innocent kids? hmmmmm

In other words, stop pretending to give a shit about the black community when you actions show you don't.

Quote:

WTF does slavery really have to do with it?

I think my first post in this thread characterized him as thinking this.

Gee- slavery has absolutely nothing to do with attitudes towards black folks (or attitudes towards white folks) today.

I wish it didn't have anything to do with it, but it is essentially the driving force behind everything you're talking about.


Silly.

Try using the whole quote

Quote:

I have given the answer numerous times. Of course fear is a major driver. It is self preservation. That is the basis of racism. WTF does slavery really have to do with it? You want to buy in to some sort of long road to climb....fine but most people in this country have no connection to being slave owners so there is no connection or guilt.

Now explain to me how people become racist because of slavery.

I think most would tend to think hatred, not fear, is what is the basis of most racism in this country. Pure hatred for another human being that doesn't look like them. What about the racist attitudes that some hold towards other races? Or do you think that it's only 'fear of the black man' that fuels these racist attitudes.

"WTF does slavery really have to do with it?"? Do you agree that slave owners held a racist attitude towards their slaves? If so, can we also agree that these slave owners didn't have any 'fear' of their slaves? And, if you can agree to that, can you then please tell me how this 'fear' cause slave owners to have this racist attitude towards their slaves? THAT's why I've brought slavery into this discussion... to ask you if fear is the main basis for racism, how to you explain racism back in those times (or the 60's and 70's if you like). It has nothing to do with any 'long road to climb' or suggesting that any one should feel any 'guilt'. That sentence is just you trying to deflect the argument again.

Quote:

Ferguson was such a mess because as usual, the cause was headed by a thug who just robbed a store in a violent manner and was caught on video. Then Wilson shoots him and people want to use Brown as the victim. This is the whole problem in a nutshell.

Actually, going by the federal report, Ferguson was a 'mess' looooong before Brown was shot (or probably even born). But of course, you don't see that. As far as you're concerned, the 'whole problem in a nutshell' is that black people have brought all the violence (lynchings, police brutality, etc.) on themselves. Which is actually a pretty scary outlook if you ask me.

Quote:

Day after day of news, thread after thread here and no one gives a shit about kids dying in Chicago every day. No we care about a thug.

Yeah... because you've started soooo many threads regarding these kids dying ever day in Chicago (not sure why you think it's only happening in one city... but whatever) yourself!

Quote:

They still say "hands up don't shoot" and that never even fucking happened. It makes the cause look like a bunch of ignorant morons.

Because the movement isn't only tied to the Wilson/Brown situation but because police brutality happens all over the fucking country! And you think other's are looking like a moron?!

Point blank, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and the fact that not one single poster on this site agrees with you SHOULD BE very telling you something. But no... you're just gonna sit there and continue to put your hands over year ears and shout what YOU think is the main cause of racism in this country. Your position is so comical that I've actually been telling people I know, both black and white, and every single one of them thinks that train of thought is idiotic. But go ahead... continue to tell us some more about black on black crime and poverty, and education, and babies having children (because these are only issues in the black community of course) to try to continue to make yourself seem as some kind of intellectual superior. It's going over great on this thread.

Quote:

In other words, stop pretending to give a shit about the black community when you actions show you don't.

AND YOU DO?!!!!

In comment 12172631 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Try using the whole quote Quote: I have given the answer numerous times. Of course fear is a major driver. It is self preservation. That is the basis of racism. WTF does slavery really have to do with it? You want to buy in to some sort of long road to climb....fine but most people in this country have no connection to being slave owners so there is no connection or guilt. Now explain to me how people become racist because of slavery.

You really can't be that stupid can you? I mean... seriously? Read what you wrote out loud. It may help. And try to understand what Cam is really saying and try not to interpret it in the way YOU want to.....

I don't think it's that hard to figure out.

If it was THE "problem" and deserving of JUST that focus and that focus then it could only be because uniquely amongst people...black people would want to be poor with fewer opportunities and desiring to break more laws and liking to commit violence. If that was true...then they are the problem and the solution. Since I don't think they do...those indicators are not the problem. Metrics that are of and by generations of a whole people that do not reflect their intent...are not the whole of causality. Period

in an orgy of bad magical thinking PA asserts that he knows more than 250 years of any people before him ever knew....we are all wrong and he is right...He knows that black people want the outcomes he notices?

In this issue this nation has 250 years of bad thinking.

In the last 40 years Rhode Island had four state supreme court justices removed after post nomination corruption in cases they ruled on. The world is full of suboptimal and sometimes rogue local legal systems. Ditto enforcement bureaucracies. Like all other human groups they are prone to sub optimal. It's a problem.
I think we do better analysis when we do not conflate the two issues other than to note a logical flash points where organization rot is found and most easily "seen" the world over is three places: people with money, people who want money and people who have none.
Shredding evidence of organizational rot and poor thinking of some individuals to hold triumphant a proposed conclusive insight about exactly why race and assimilation in America is a problem ( the victims are to blame because we can tag metrics to visible tangible manifestations and not to 9/10 of the iceberg of context) is just plain bad thinking. Correlation is not causality and certainty about a complex phenomenon from one sidebar frame of reference is bound to miss whole truth even if it catches an observation. Lastly the observations we have metrics for are never the same as having all aspects of a problem in measurable form.

Just an explanation of how for better or worse i have been looking at this aspect of the thread

What a load of crap you just typed.

Where to begin....

Most people I know are not racist. The vast majority. Most whites I know are usually confused as to how to even approach black subjects because they don't want to offend people. You think there are that high of a % of racists out there? And it is fear far more then hate. Because there is reason to fear. Fear leads to mistrust. And it becomes a math equation and logic over hate.

You think these white cops were just born racist? You think black cops can't come to be just as abusive to black people as the white cops? Of course they can. Now why is that? I dare you to answer.

You really think slavery is directly why some people might hold racist views today? Most people today have no connection to slavery whatsoever. Makes no sense.

If I started a thread about kids dying in Chicago or any other city I would be attacked for it. But then again this is not my cause right? It is you guys carrying this torch.....yet not one thread from you guys...Which makes you hypocrites.

The movement was tied to the Brown shooting and it was foolish and I told you that from day one...So where is the "movement" today? Where are the riots then? Where is the protest now if Brown was such a small piece?
Heck the federal report just came out and no riots, no protests int he streets? Hmmmmmm....obviously you are wrong

I do give a shit about the black community. I also recognize that nothing is going to change until people change their venom inward instead of outward. Outward is not going to solve anything. You fix the problems as I describe and the whole problem self corrects.

This might be the biggest pile of dung you have ever written

Quote:

If it was THE "problem" and deserving of JUST that focus and that focus then it could only be because uniquely amongst people...black people would want to be poor with fewer opportunities and desiring to break more laws and liking to commit violence. If that was true...then they are the problem and the solution. Since I don't think they do...those indicators are not the problem. Metrics that are of and by generations of a whole people that do not reflect their intent...are not the whole of causality. Period

In comment 12172631 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Try using the whole quote Quote: I have given the answer numerous times. Of course fear is a major driver. It is self preservation. That is the basis of racism. WTF does slavery really have to do with it? You want to buy in to some sort of long road to climb....fine but most people in this country have no connection to being slave owners so there is no connection or guilt. Now explain to me how people become racist because of slavery.

Are you seriously asking that question? I mean I have seen some whoppers asked before on BBI but I really want to believe you are being attempting to be sarcastic with that question.? Otherwise it is a mindbogglingly stupid one.

So answer the question...

How does slavery make people today racist?

It's like debating with Spock.

In fact I am the only one on these threads trying to propose ideas to fix the issues.

Again, not one person has agreed with you... and yet you keep attacking everyone else's posts calling them 'crap' and 'dung'. Just out of curiosity, how old are you?

Quote:

Most people I know are not racist. The vast majority. Most whites I know are usually confused as to how to even approach black subjects because they don't want to offend people.

First off, good for you (I guess). Judging by your posts on this thread, I have no doubt that 'most whites' YOU know (there you go again, lumping everyone into one big group) are confused as to how to approach black subjects because if their thinking is anything like yours then they SHOULD be confused... mainly because them, like you, would have no idea what you're talking about.

Quote:

You think there are that high of a % of racists out there?

I never said that.

Quote:

And it is fear far more then hate. Because there is reason to fear. Fear leads to mistrust. And it becomes a math equation and logic over hate.

I see... so there's a 'reason to fear' eh? Because some black people have committed crimes against other black people eh? What about those black people that don't commit any crimes at all? You have fear of them too? If so, why? If not, also, why?

Quote:

You think these white cops were just born racist?

Never said that either. Again, it's an annoying habit you have to make up these statements/arguments that you think you're hearing and then basing your arguments off of those. Racism is a LEARNED trait. No one is born racist.

Quote:

You think black cops can't come to be just as abusive to black people as the white cops? Of course they can. Now why is that? I dare you to answer.

Finally something we can agree on. Yes, black cops can be just as abusive to black people as white cops. On that we can agree on. Why is that? Because some (not all) cops don't see any other color than 'Blue'. They see it as an 'US vs Them' struggle and they know that most people (black, white or other) don't see anything but 'blue' as well when it comes to how they view the police. Therefore some cops, of all races, believe that the brotherhood of being a part of a police department outweighs the brotherhood of their race... and that's fine if they do see it like that. Where it becomes an issue is when they overstep their boundaries and commit some form of police brutality. Now please stop with the 'I dare you to answer' bull because you're really not presenting some tough questions. Silly ones maybe... but not tough to answer.

Quote:

You really think slavery is directly why some people might hold racist views today? Most people today have no connection to slavery whatsoever. Makes no sense.

You're right... when you put it the way YOU put it... yeah, it makes no sense. Glad you're able to see that for yourself. What I and others have been saying is that racist attitudes have existed since, at least, the times of slavery. Matter of fact, they've existed before then as witnessed how white people, when they came over to this country and found Native Americans here, thought of them as 'sub human' and 'animals'. Please try to understand what I and others are saying because it'd go a long way to having a valid, civil discussion (if that's what you really want).

Quote:

If I started a thread about kids dying in Chicago or any other city I would be attacked for it.

That's weak. You don't know that and I'm not sure why you'd even think that. But then again, I'm guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Quote:

But then again this is not my cause right? It is you guys carrying this torch.....yet not one thread from you guys...Which makes you hypocrites.

Ending police brutality, which is what this is all about, should be EVERYONE'S cause because it isn't just caused and affected by black people but all races. Again though, judging by your posts on this thread, can't say I'm surprised by your thinking. You don't start a thread because you'll get attacked for it... but if we don't start a thread about it, it's because we're hypocrites. Your lack of self awareness knows no bounds.

Quote:

The movement was tied to the Brown shooting and it was foolish and I told you that from day one...So where is the "movement" today? Where are the riots then? Where is the protest now if Brown was such a small piece? Heck the federal report just came out and no riots, no protests int he streets? Hmmmmmm....obviously you are wrong.

See link below and feel free to select either of the first two links in them. Thanks in advance.

Quote:

I do give a shit about the black community.

I highly doubt this but if you say so.

Quote:

I also recognize that nothing is going to change until people change their venom inward instead of outward. Outward is not going to solve anything. You fix the problems as I describe and the whole problem self corrects.

Perhaps the 'venom' should be going both ways? Of course you wouldn't think that, because then it'd destroy your stance that all of the racism that black people experience in this country has been brought on by themselves!


For PA... not that you'll click on this link - ( New Window )

You're just spouting off the same head in the sand, stubborn, ignorant-of-the-situation garbage. What's your plan? Make black people stop being scary towards white people? Then racism will be fixed? By your logic, the only ones to blame here are those in the black community. You're blaming black people for racism against them. How the fuck is that not the viewpoint of a racist.?

In comment 12172756 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

In fact I am the only one on these threads trying to propose ideas to fix the issues.

LOL! And you think that proves that you're NOT a racist? I'm trying to believe that you aren't... but your posts on this thread are REALLY making that hard to do.

In comment 12172774 732NYG said:

Quote:

You're just spouting off the same head in the sand, stubborn, ignorant-of-the-situation garbage. What's your plan? Make black people stop being scary towards white people? Then racism will be fixed? By your logic, the only ones to blame here are those in the black community. You're blaming black people for racism against them. How the fuck is that not the viewpoint of a racist.?

Thank you!

Lets hear all of your solutions then. My solutions are noted above over and over. Fix drug laws, Provide a path to a clean criminal record and education, massively prosecute violent crime, increase awareness and de-incentivize kids having kids.....

Quote:

You're just spouting off the same head in the sand, stubborn, ignorant-of-the-situation garbage. What's your plan? Make black people stop being scary towards white people? Then racism will be fixed? By your logic, the only ones to blame here are those in the black community. You're blaming black people for racism against them. How the fuck is that not the viewpoint of a racist.?

So if my ideas ignorant, what are yours? Where are anyone on this threads solutions?

People are not going to agree with me on here because of the nature of the thread. Same reason why the issue will not be resolved any time soon. The answers are obvious to some but the misguided are leading the charge and without their intention causing the damage.

Black cops abuse blacks because they only see the color blue? Really? You buy that shit? This thought on your part is probably the biggest evidence of your problem. You refuse to believe people are conditioned by their environment. You refuse to accept that all the crime in the black neighborhoods begins to make a person jaded.

Why? Because once you do, then the rest of your arguments fall apart. You have to accept that it is the behavior and seeing violence and degradation day after day is the cause of it. Not inherent racism.

So black cops abuse blacks because they only see blue?
And White cops abuse blacks because they are racist?

You realize how this begins to unravel all of your arguments? Rather then believe that the fact that 1/3 black people will have a criminal record. Or that the vast majority of violent crime is in the black community and against other black people. ANd this conditions the cops.....

No it is racist for whites, and blacks only seeing blue....

About kids killing kids in these cities, I would be attacked....

Whose fault is it that there is so much violent crime in the inner cities?

In comment 12172675 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

What a load of crap you just typed. Most people I know are not racist.

Newsflash. EVERYONE IS RACIST. Every. Single. One. of us, MYSELF included. None of us are born with it. It is thrust upon us by our culture, our media, our peers, our friends, our relatives.

It doesn't have to be cross-burning racism. It can be as simple as spade-is-a-spade racial jokes, or locking your car doors when a black guy walks by, but we ALL have some ingrained level of racism inherent in us. And it is up to us to correct it, whether we catch ourselves in the act as well as to call it out when we see it from others.

If you can't even see it in yourself, how can you ever judge it in others?

Ferguson was NOT about Mike Brown. Mike Brown happens on a near daily basis in this country. Ferguson happened for a reason, and the DOJ SHOWED US the reason.

Over the DOJ report but your links don't seem to show that.

Police force. That is what is being addressed here. Police brutality and blatant, documented racism of an entire population. How the fuck are fixing drug laws(genetic statement as I've ever heard) and "providing a clear path to a clean record and education" going to fix the problems with police brutality and racism? You're just giving out bullshit regurgitated solutions that don't have a thing to do with the problem being discussed. There has been a culture of racism as evidenced by the DOJ's findings. It's right there for all to see, plain as day. Go read the emails. Go read the written statement and come back and tell me that cops have no problem with calling a group of black teens "n****r" to their face because they are afraid of them. Da fuq kind of logic is that?

Quote:

Ferguson was NOT about Mike Brown. Mike Brown happens on a near daily basis in this country. Ferguson happened for a reason, and the DOJ SHOWED US the reason.

So where are the protests are riots today then in Ferguson Haven't heard crap since Wilson was exonerated.

Yes Brown happens on a daily basis. Black Thug commits a crime and is arrested, detained or killed attacking someone.

Otherwise lets hear one shred of evidence that says that a cop kills an innocent kid every day....Or admit that what you just typed was bullshit.

And don't give me ..."I meant to say that a white cop harrassed a black innocent kid" This was originally about murder of an innocent kid.

Which turned out to be self defense against a violent criminal

is just a lousy idea.

T-Bone, please consider just quietly backing out of the room. PA appears to have a personality disorder which makes it impossible to consider alternate views.

A kind of narcissism or hubris. That doesn't make for reasonable discussions. He won't convince anyone, and no one will convince him, so why bother?

This pretty much sealed it for me:

Quote:

Now explain to me how people become racist because of slavery.

Go day, sir. Nice effort. You definitely got me.

you wouldn't be calling him a "Thug."

..

In comment 12172828 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Lets hear all of your solutions then. My solutions are noted above over and over. Fix drug laws, Provide a path to a clean criminal record and education, massively prosecute violent crime, increase awareness and de-incentivize kids having kids..... Quote: You're just spouting off the same head in the sand, stubborn, ignorant-of-the-situation garbage. What's your plan? Make black people stop being scary towards white people? Then racism will be fixed? By your logic, the only ones to blame here are those in the black community. You're blaming black people for racism against them. How the fuck is that not the viewpoint of a racist.? So if my ideas ignorant, what are yours? Where are anyone on this threads solutions?

Maybe no one has given an solution to the problem of police brutality and unfair treatment of minorities on a city-wide level (which, again, this thread is about) because it's not an easy problem to solve? Nah... that can't be it. It's just so much easier to say 'Hey, it's black people's fault they're getting their own asses kicked!'. LOL!

That's what you seem to keep missing. BUT, to at least try to give a solution I would suggest...

- better screening of potential law enforcement officers and city officials... along with having a group of committed individuals to watch over these tasks

To me this would be the very first step. Can't fix the problem if you keep letting the same type of people in.

- perhaps look into changing some of the tactics used by law enforcement and/or issuing harsher penalties for those officers and city officials who are found to be abusive not towards just minorities but all people

I'm not going to sit here and claim I know what needs to be changed in this respect as I know little about law enforcement training. But I think a big deterrent would be to give officers found of using abusive tactics much harsher penalties than what they currently seem to get.

- on the other side, perhaps more can be done to teach minorities what their rights are as citizens of the US, along with teaching them how to act when approached by a member of law enforcement

In some, but not all, cases... the abusive actions could've been avoided had the suspect reacted in a better fashion. This is where I will state that it's my belief that in some cases some people bring what happens to them on themselves. Mouthing off and giving the officer(s) a hard time rarely ever works or helps the person being abused. Few things piss me off more than seeing someone being blatantly disrespectful and belligerent towards an officer and then when the officer slams the guy to the ground he starts screaming about police brutality.

That's just a few possible solutions and I'm sure there are more but again, I'm not nearly arrogant enough to think that I know and have all the answers and anyone who disagrees with me is a moron.... like one person in particular.

In these links
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 12172873 manh george said:

Quote:

is just a lousy idea. T-Bone, please consider just quietly backing out of the room. PA appears to have a personality disorder which makes it impossible to consider alternate views. A kind of narcissism or hubris. That doesn't make for reasonable discussions. He won't convince anyone, and no one will convince him, so why bother?

Ok... I'm pretty much done. I should've been done a while ago like you said! LOL! I'm just amazed that there are people out there that think like him and have really tried to understand where he's coming from... but I guess he's the only one who can do that.

to ignore dangerously stupid posters with lots of time on their hands, like our grand wizard, PA here....

It's his remarkable belief that only his viewpoint has merit, and that those who disagree are wrong or stupid.

That's a sure sign that it isn't worth bothering, unless you ENJOY banging your head against a brick wall.

and why does this shit stain continue to post here? I can't imagine how much my blood would be boiling if I were a black poster, nor would I find reason to continue to post when David Duke is allowed to keep posting his offensive thoughts. There are a handful of great posters that were driven away because of people like PA. Wonder why donations are down? This would be a good starting point. People have been suspended for much less.

Because you have a handful of posters here that have been here for a long time and run this place. Everything is an argument in every thread they post on.

with a racist?

You just hope he doesn't procreate much (hey, he's white, don't have to worry about many kids, because he's not a minority; see, his viewpoint may have merit!).

and only chimed in when idiocy such as yours showed itself on threads. There are various reasons why donations are down, but jackasses such as yourself certainly does not help either.

Here is what I believe in a nutshell as I have stated repeatedly.

We are all the same. Black, white, brown

Racism and abuse by cops represents a very small amount of the issue effecting black progress yet receives most of the attention.

The real issue is black on black crime, drug laws and use, incarceration rates, babies having babies.

Racism is born out of fear. As long as black represent a vast % per capita of violent crime, and black men have criminals records at a rate of 1/3 there will be continued fear resulting in racism.

Cops are not naturally racist but become conditioned by working in black communities where the crime is. This is also evidenced by the same behavior being perpetuated by black cops. It is not a blue thing as Tbone noted but a conditioned thing.

I believe that solutions should include providing a path to a clean record and education for non violent offenders. Fix drug laws. Education and discouragement or de-incentivize babies having babies.

The continued murder of kids in inner cites represents an issue yet no one talks about it, protests, starts threads here but the hint of a white cop killing an innocent kid starts riots shows a misplacement of rage.

In comment 12172873 manh george said:

Quote:

is just a lousy idea. T-Bone, please consider just quietly backing out of the room. PA appears to have a personality disorder which makes it impossible to consider alternate views. A kind of narcissism or hubris. That doesn't make for reasonable discussions. He won't convince anyone, and no one will convince him, so why bother?

manh...I think I disagree. It appears to me that PA Film Giant is becoming more and more openly bigoted as the wears on. The rope is paid, out, the noose is set, and all that remains is for him to kick the lever in his flailing about.

Let the prick hang himself, then perhaps that'll be the end of him.

I stated what is probably my full position above. Tell me what is racist or bigoted about it. The truth is that is exposes apologists and misguided views. What I believe is pretty simple stuff. What do you disagree with? I am probably in the majority at this point.

You have this strange but squeaky wheel vocal here but what I have stated is hardly out of the norm.

In comment 12172894 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

In these links Link - ( New Window )

He doesn't vote Republican, but all of his links are from hyper-right sites. I guess he's a fringer, which certainly explains his views. He's the type that gives Republicans a bad name.

In comment 12173084 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

I stated what is probably my full position above. Tell me what is racist or bigoted about it. The truth is that is exposes apologists and misguided views. What I believe is pretty simple stuff. What do you disagree with? I am probably in the majority at this point. You have this strange but squeaky wheel vocal here but what I have stated is hardly out of the norm.

Better a squeaky wheel than a rat-fuck.

Big republican huh?

Sooooo far from the truth....it is funny though..

Again, here it is again....what is bigoted...You got names but no evidence. All you are doing is proving my point and providing the evidence for why things will not change any time soon but as I have noted it will via generational progress.

My overall thoughts here

We are all the same. Black, white, brown

Racism and abuse by cops represents a very small amount of the issue effecting black progress yet receives most of the attention.

The real issue is black on black crime, drug laws and use, incarceration rates, babies having babies.

Racism is born out of fear. As long as black represent a vast % per capita of violent crime, and black men have criminals records at a rate of 1/3 there will be continued fear resulting in racism.

Cops are not naturally racist but become conditioned by working in black communities where the crime is. This is also evidenced by the same behavior being perpetuated by black cops. It is not a blue thing as Tbone noted but a conditioned thing.

I believe that solutions should include providing a path to a clean record and education for non violent offenders. Fix drug laws. Education and discouragement or de-incentivize babies having babies.

The continued murder of kids in inner cites represents an issue yet no one talks about it, protests, starts threads here but the hint of a white cop killing an innocent kid starts riots shows a misplacement of rage.

just call PA a fuckstain and be on your way. Get quite a few hours back in your day.

for telling the truth

is that head in the sand truthhaters are the only thing limiting your wisdom's flourish.

None of you can.

Again, here it is. Tell me what is misguided or bigoted?

My overall thoughts here

We are all the same. Black, white, brown

Racism and abuse by cops represents a very small amount of the issue effecting black progress yet receives most of the attention.

The real issue is black on black crime, drug laws and use, incarceration rates, babies having babies.

Racism is born out of fear. As long as black represent a vast % per capita of violent crime, and black men have criminals records at a rate of 1/3 there will be continued fear resulting in racism.

Cops are not naturally racist but become conditioned by working in black communities where the crime is. This is also evidenced by the same behavior being perpetuated by black cops. It is not a blue thing as Tbone noted but a conditioned thing.

I believe that solutions should include providing a path to a clean record and education for non violent offenders. Fix drug laws. Education and discouragement or de-incentivize babies having babies.

The continued murder of kids in inner cites represents an issue yet no one talks about it, protests, starts threads here but the hint of a white cop killing an innocent kid starts riots shows a misplacement of rage.

between expressing an opinion and stating a truth is a clear aspect of your delusion, and why it isn't worth discussing anything with you.

Speaking at an historically black college, President Obama said Sunday he sometimes blamed his youthful failings on racism and urged the all-male class of graduates to look up to black male role models such a filmmaker Spike Lee.

Protected by a canopy in a steady rain at Morehouse College in Atlanta, Mr. Obama told the drenched graduates and their families that they can’t afford to use “the bitter legacy of slavery and segregation” as an excuse for any shortcomings.

“We know that too many young men in our community continue to make bad choices,” Mr. Obama said. “Growing up, I made a few myself. Sometimes I wrote off my own failings as just another example of the world trying to keep a black man down.”

Various biographical accounts of Mr. Obama’s teenage years in Hawaii have described him as an underachieving student who enjoyed smoking marijuana frequently.

The president said without some opportunities, his life might have turned out differently.

“I might have been in prison,” Mr. Obama said. “I might have been unemployed. I might not have been able to support a family. And that motivates me.”

But Mr. Obama said black men today — he even used the term “brother” frequently — cannot use racism as a crutch to explain away any failures.

“We’ve got no time for excuses,” Mr. Obama said. “Not because the bitter legacy of slavery and segregation have vanished entirely; they have not. Not because racism and discrimination no longer exist; we know those are still out there. It’s just that in today’s hyper-connected, hyper-competitive world, with millions of young people from China and India and Brazil — many of whom started with a whole lot less than all of you did — all of them entering the global workforce alongside you, nobody is going to give you anything that you have not earned.”

The president’s speech to the all-male class at Morehouse was unusual in the level of his introspection on race, and his bluntness on the responsibilities of black men.

He urged the graduates to help the powerless in society. And even though he said his job as president is to help Americans of all races, he added, “there are some things, as black men, we can only do for ourselves.”

“Be a good role model and set a good example for that young brother coming up,” Mr. Obama said. “If you know somebody who’s not on point, go back and bring that brother along — those who’ve been left behind, who haven’t had the same opportunities we have — they need to hear from you. We’ve got to teach them just like what we have to learn, what it means to be a man — to serve your city like Maynard Jackson; to shape the culture like Spike Lee.”

It was Mr. Obama’s second commencement speech of this graduation season. He spoke to the graduates of Ohio State University two weeks ago, and will address the graduating class at the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis on Friday.

Mr. Obama also spoke more than he usually does about his upbringing, and the fact that his father abandoned him.

He remembers meeting his father briefly only once, when he was 10 years old.

“I was raised by a heroic single mom, wonderful grandparents — made incredible sacrifices for me,” he told the graduates. “And I know there are moms and grandparents here today who did the same thing for all of you. But I sure wish I had had a father who was not only present, but involved. Didn’t know my dad.”

The president said his experience impressed on him the need to be a good father and husband, and that his efforts at home are more important to him than his achievements as president

“Everything else is unfulfilled if we fail at family, if we fail at that responsibility,” he said. “I know that when I am on my deathbed someday, I will not be thinking about any particular legislation I passed; I will not be thinking about a policy I promoted; I will not be thinking about the speech I gave, I will not be thinking the Nobel Prize I received. I will be thinking about that walk I took with my daughters. I’ll be thinking about a lazy afternoon with my wife. I’ll be thinking about sitting around the dinner table and seeing them happy and healthy and knowing that they were loved. And I’ll be thinking about whether I did right by all of them.”

The president combined his visit to Morehouse Sunday with a fundraiser in Georgia for Democratic candidates for the U.S. Senate.



Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/19/obama-black-graduates-dont-use-racism-excuse/#ixzz3U0QERhtW
Follow us: @washtimes on Twitter
Link - ( New Window )

You guys cant even agree with eachother on why I am wrong. Some say I am a bigot. Some say I just refuse to acknowledge another opinion. None of you have any guts here when I am called a racist and I obviously am not.

In comment 12172872 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Quote: Ferguson was NOT about Mike Brown. Mike Brown happens on a near daily basis in this country. Ferguson happened for a reason, and the DOJ SHOWED US the reason. So where are the protests are riots today then in Ferguson Haven't heard crap since Wilson was exonerated.

Exactly. Because it WASN'T about Mike Brown. Simultaneously, Wilson was exonerated, AND the Ferguson Justice System was completely EXPOSED. Because the national spotlight that was shone on Ferguson, and the resulting actions were enough to prevent further rioting. Had there been a 'slap on the wrist' of a report from DOJ, things would have been different.

The fact that each of us emphasizes varying aspects of you delusions does not connote disagreement.

See: Blind men and camel.

There I go again...lol

For the third time

here it is. Tell me what is misguided or bigoted?

My overall thoughts here

We are all the same. Black, white, brown

Racism and abuse by cops represents a very small amount of the issue effecting black progress yet receives most of the attention.

The real issue is black on black crime, drug laws and use, incarceration rates, babies having babies.

Racism is born out of fear. As long as black represent a vast % per capita of violent crime, and black men have criminals records at a rate of 1/3 there will be continued fear resulting in racism.

Cops are not naturally racist but become conditioned by working in black communities where the crime is. This is also evidenced by the same behavior being perpetuated by black cops. It is not a blue thing as Tbone noted but a conditioned thing.

I believe that solutions should include providing a path to a clean record and education for non violent offenders. Fix drug laws. Education and discouragement or de-incentivize babies having babies.

The continued murder of kids in inner cites represents an issue yet no one talks about it, protests, starts threads here but the hint of a white cop killing an innocent kid starts riots shows a misplacement of rage.

You are living in a fantasy world

Quote:

and the resulting actions were enough to prevent further rioting

There was nothing because the white cop was exonerated. It was over.

comes to these conclusions without the riots, so I don't know how PA can say they're 'ignoring the real problem' which according to him is black people.

thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug thug.

Again. Wrong and baseless. Which is why my view is far more in the main stream and accepted....Did you even read Obama's speech above?

For the fourth time which none of you can address or deny or disprove or address:


My overall thoughts here

We are all the same. Black, white, brown

Racism and abuse by cops represents a very small amount of the issue effecting black progress yet receives most of the attention.

The real issue is black on black crime, drug laws and use, incarceration rates, babies having babies.

Racism is born out of fear. As long as black represent a vast % per capita of violent crime, and black men have criminals records at a rate of 1/3 there will be continued fear resulting in racism.

Cops are not naturally racist but become conditioned by working in black communities where the crime is. This is also evidenced by the same behavior being perpetuated by black cops. It is not a blue thing as Tbone noted but a conditioned thing.

I believe that solutions should include providing a path to a clean record and education for non violent offenders. Fix drug laws. Education and discouragement or de-incentivize babies having babies.

The continued murder of kids in inner cites represents an issue yet no one talks about it, protests, starts threads here but the hint of a white cop killing an innocent kid starts riots shows a misplacement of rage.

Remember this thread and look in the mirror

In comment 12172971 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Racism and abuse by cops represents a very small amount of the issue effecting black progress yet receives most of the attention.

Everything after this point is immaterial, because this one point is a gross marginalization of a HUGE problem that, in addition to being a disgusting problem to have in the first place, has massive implications and an enormous multiplier effect.

It's spoken by someone who has never once experienced the institutional bias of law enforcement/legal system or even seen those that it affects.

On top of that, so much of what you've said is so off base and ridiculous, that it's pointless to engage you. You are like Spock. You have no understanding of any other worldview outside of your little bubble.

It is mind blowing that someone can read the report on Ferguson and conclude that the REAL problem is black on black crime. They're sending pictures of Obama as a Chimpanzee, but nope, there are only racist people because of black on black crime.

The report explicitly states the percentages of black individuals cited for certain violations (which hover around 90%), but nope, the cops are out to fine everyone equally.

Also, please do NOT call PA Giants Fan a troll. He is not a troll. Calling him a troll just implies that he is only saying what he is saying to get a rise out of people. That isn't the truth. He believes what he is saying.

In comment 12172872 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Quote: Otherwise lets hear one shred of evidence that says that a cop kills an innocent kid every day....Or admit that what you just typed was bullshit.

I've got Libertarian friends who are heavily anti-cop, so I get to see police overreach/brutality articles on just about a daily basis. Articles have been sent to me, posted on facebook regularly LONG before Ferguson. And no, not always a kid. (FWIW, Brown was pretty clearly a 'perp', can't draw conclusions over justification of Wilson's action)

Hey man, you want to take the side of police on this, knock yourself out. By the way, Pennsylvania sucks balls. Every inch of it. :)
13 More 'Michael Brown' Police Killings We've Learned About In The Month Since His Death - ( New Window )

In comment 12173316 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Remember this thread and look in the mirror

That's hilarious. You are literally telling a black person that it's the fault of black people that cops show a racial bias against them.

At the end of the day, that's what it boils down to.

And building off of this, the crux of your argument is pretty much that police bias against blacks does not truly affect black communities. That is such a fucking absurd statement that I don' even understand how can you stand by it.

In comment 12173299 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

You are living in a fantasy world Quote: and the resulting actions were enough to prevent further rioting There was nothing because the white cop was exonerated. It was over.

Then why weren't there any riots over Eric Garner, which was FAR more blatant and obvious? Could the police response in NYC vs Ferguson had ANYTHING to do with it?

On top of that, so much of what you've said is so off base and ridiculous, that it's pointless to engage you.

Most of what I posted is accepted truth. Go read the presidents speech that I posted. Funny how much of what he notes regarding personal responsibility, family, laws, excuses...is parallel to what I posted.

Now you want to blame white cops for the high violent crime rate in these communities? That dog won't hunt

Wrong but you may be illiterate

Quote:

And building off of this, the crux of your argument is pretty much that police bias against blacks does not truly affect black communities. That is such a fucking absurd statement that I don' even understand how can you stand by it.

See you guys need to make white cops the big villain here and this post once again prove it. I never said there wasn't an effect. I said it was much smaller of an effect then the other items I listed but gets all the attention. The need to create this strawman argument against me only further validates how full of crap some of you are.

I'm trying to understand how someone can look at the Ferguson report, see how they've treated the black community there for an extended amount of time, and STILL think Ferguson was all about Michael Brown.

I'm not surprised though, since you have a complete inability to look at anything other than your own worldview.

It's amazing that your response to T-Bone's comment about cops only seeing "blue" vs "black" is "You buy that shit?".

As if it's some novel fucking idea. As if the term "blue code of silence" doesn't exist, as if the police don't literally call themselves a brotherhood or fraternal organization, as if there hasn't been a ton of discussion about the "us vs them" mentality that police have.

In comment 12173369 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Wrong but you may be illiterate Quote: And building off of this, the crux of your argument is pretty much that police bias against blacks does not truly affect black communities. That is such a fucking absurd statement that I don' even understand how can you stand by it. See you guys need to make white cops the big villain here and this post once again prove it. I never said there wasn't an effect. I said it was much smaller of an effect then the other items I listed but gets all the attention. The need to create this strawman argument against me only further validates how full of crap some of you are.

What strawman argument? You're the one that's saying the effect is negligible, or at the very least, subordinate to all the other things you listed. You're the one that said it.

That's laughable and complete bullshit. Put yourself in the shoes of others for a change and try to stand by that.

It's idiotic.

Plus, the skin color of a cop doesn't matter to me. It's the racial bias that the cops have. You can have a black police force, and if they're doing the same thing to hispanics in their district, it's just as bad.

Man, your whole reaction to this thread just seems like some sort of knee-jerk reaction to protect "whites" from the "PC-police" or whatever. It's really transparent and obvious.

lol. Yes it is the blue code that makes black cops abuse blacks. It has nothing to do with seeing black on black crime and the horrific nature and violence that occurs in there neighborhoods.

You realize what you are saying is far worse. Basically they allow abuse of black people because they don't want to cause a rift with white cops...come on now...It couldn't be seeing dead kids on a weekly basis...nah its a blue code...come on..

Quote:

In comment 12172971 PA Giant Fan said: Quote: Racism and abuse by cops represents a very small amount of the issue effecting black progress yet receives most of the attention.

"Very small amount of the issue effecting..." [btw, it's Affecting]

That sounds pretty much in tune with "not truly affecting". You're saying it doesn't have a big effect. I'm saying that's clearly bullshit.

So before you call others illiterate, maybe you should check what it is you said.

Straw man is what you set up here which was never my argument

Quote:

pretty much that police bias against blacks does not truly affect black communities

You lied basically creating this argument above but I never said it and it was never my argument. This is your attempt to create a strawman...pathetic as it was

barking at the moon, PA?

In comment 12173395 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

lol. Yes it is the blue code that makes black cops abuse blacks. It has nothing to do with seeing black on black crime and the horrific nature and violence that occurs in there neighborhoods. You realize what you are saying is far worse. Basically they allow abuse of black people because they don't want to cause a rift with white cops...come on now...It couldn't be seeing dead kids on a weekly basis...nah its a blue code...come on..

What an idiot.

1) I didn't even say that, I was just pointing out how you can't look though any other's worldviews.

2) How often are blacks victims of police brutality at the hands of black cops vs white cops?

3) I don't really think it takes much, if any, of a stretch of the imagination to realize that cops will cover for other cops.

4) All black communities have "dead kids on a weekly basis"? Is this what you think of black people? That there communities have "dead kids on a weekly basis?" You think every single city that has a problem with racial bias in the police force is due to the police seeing "dead kids on a weekly basis"

That is so fucking telling right there...

If I was could the aliens hear me?

In comment 12173410 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Quote: Racism and abuse by cops represents a very small amount of the issue effecting black progress yet receives most of the attention.

That's because virtually everything else from equal opportunity to unemployment/workplace inequality to voter disenfranchisement is virtually ignored by all but the most progressive outlets.

In comment 12173410 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Quote: Racism and abuse by cops represents a very small amount of the issue effecting black progress yet receives most of the attention.

Yes, and this is wrong on so many levels. The fact that you stand by this means you've never had to deal with anything comparable. You're trying to marginalize a massive problem. It's funny that you highlight this as one of the fundamental tenants of your argument because it's so off base and detached from the real world.

Again changing what I said and mis-aligning viewpoints which you have to do because you no longer have a valid argument

Are a top problem in the black community then you are a moron. What % of cops do you think are racist and act out there racist tendencies towards blacks.

What about commuties where there are a high % of black cops? Is it still the white racist cops causing the problem?

Quote:

Basically they allow abuse of black people because they don't want to cause a rift with white cops...

The above sentence shows you clearly really have no idea what you're talking about. Some of them don't just 'allow' it, but partake in it themselves.

Yeah... this is my last post to you PA. I should've stopped a long time ago, like some suggested, but for some strange reason I actually felt sorry for you and wanted to get a better understanding of why you think the way you do. But it's clear to me now that you've never experienced any real racism (except for the examples told to you by your black friends) and therefore are speaking about something you have no clue about. Absolutely none. There have been movies and documentaries made about the very topic (the peer pressure of becoming a part of a police force) you laugh at above... and yet YOU laugh at the notion and think it's unbelievable because you don't want to believe that it's a common occurrence within police departments.

Whatever... every one is right... it's not worth having this 'discussion' with you anymore. Good luck and peace be with you.

I was paraphrasing what sonic said to me and telling him it was a ridiculous viewpoint. Glad you agree with me...

Quote:

lol. Yes it is the blue code that makes black cops abuse blacks. It has nothing to do with seeing black on black crime and the horrific nature and violence that occurs in there neighborhoods. You realize what you are saying is far worse. Basically they allow abuse of black people because they don't want to cause a rift with white cops...come on now...It couldn't be seeing dead kids on a weekly basis...nah its a blue code...come on..

Funny how most of your arguments against me are strawmen

My overall thoughts here

We are all the same. Black, white, brown

Racism and abuse by cops represents a very small amount of the issue effecting black progress yet receives most of the attention.

The real issue is black on black crime, drug laws and use, incarceration rates, babies having babies.

Racism is born out of fear. As long as black represent a vast % per capita of violent crime, and black men have criminals records at a rate of 1/3 there will be continued fear resulting in racism.

Cops are not naturally racist but become conditioned by working in black communities where the crime is. This is also evidenced by the same behavior being perpetuated by black cops. It is not a blue thing as Tbone noted but a conditioned thing.

I believe that solutions should include providing a path to a clean record and education for non violent offenders. Fix drug laws. Education and discouragement or de-incentivize babies having babies.

The continued murder of kids in inner cites represents an issue yet no one talks about it, protests, starts threads here but the hint of a white cop killing an innocent kid starts riots shows a misplacement of rage.

In comment 12173465 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

I was paraphrasing what sonic said to me and telling him it was a ridiculous viewpoint. Glad you agree with me...

I'm not agreeing with you! LOL!

I give up.

WHich was funny

that you'd see it that way.

In comment 12173426 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Again changing what I said and mis-aligning viewpoints which you have to do because you no longer have a valid argument

hahahaha.

I'm sorry, what part of my "argument" is invalid? That institutional bias throughout our policing and law enforcement establishments has a disastrous affect on the progress of minority communities, particular black communities?

That's common fucking sense, not an argument. It takes a special kind of ostrich to have his head in the sand so far to not realize how evident and obvious the above statement is.

Please, why don't you outline how the above is "invalid". Don't deflect, don't try and change the issue - just tell me how police and legal bias against a particular group of society does not have a profound negative impact on said group.

how you can say "incarceration rates" are a problem, but absolve a biased police force or court system of any blame.

Yeah, that kind of has an affect on incarceration rates.

Quote:

That institutional bias throughout our policing and law enforcement establishments has a disastrous affect on the progress of minority communities, particular black communities?

Disastrous effect? Really? It is this that is causing black to commit so much violent crime against other blacks?

Do you even know or can you describe any details to your statement?

You think institutional racism is the problem....?

Not gangs, guns, drugs, ??????????

Ask anyone that has worked in these communities and they will laugh at you.

In comment 12173115 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Big republican huh?

Yet another instance of changing what people say to fit the bigot narrative. I said you're an obvious fringer who makes Republicans look bad.

Face it, folks, this is one evil fucker. We'll hear about him some day soon, and not in a good way.

about slavery earlier was mind-blowing.

"It wasn't us who raped your culture and put you in a deep hole to start out in this country, it was our grandpas and their grandpas and their grandpas, so just get over it and stop blaming us and look in the mirror for where you are today"... that's your argument.

1600-1860= Slavery aka the absolute worst aspect in this country's history
1860-1970= black people are "free" but treated like absolute garbage

So black people dealt with sub-human treatment for 350-400 years in this country. And just because the last 20 or so years when there was an improvement in black/white relations, you think black people should just go "everything's cool now, it's not your fault we're here"?

You don't seem to understand what the root of the problem is when it comes to black people. You think yesterday doesn't count because it's today. Racial tensions are always going to be there in this country, but as time goes on I think it will continue to improve (like it has been). I think technology and talking over the internet instead of in person will help lessen the importance of skin color. It'll get better but it's always going to be there because you can't ignore the past.

Quote:

ow you can say "incarceration rates" are a problem, but absolve a biased police force or court system of any blame.

I never did this. I said that it is a much smaller problem facing the community then black on black violent crime, drug laws, etc....

You keep changing what I said to make it sound extreme because you are 100% wrong and the only way to win the argument is to re characterize what I said...which makes you pathetic

Here is my overall position and none of you have the balls to address it...why? Because you know I am right

My overall thoughts here

We are all the same. Black, white, brown

Racism and abuse by cops represents a very small amount of the issue effecting black progress yet receives most of the attention.

The real issue is black on black crime, drug laws and use, incarceration rates, babies having babies.

Racism is born out of fear. As long as black represent a vast % per capita of violent crime, and black men have criminals records at a rate of 1/3 there will be continued fear resulting in racism.

Cops are not naturally racist but become conditioned by working in black communities where the crime is. This is also evidenced by the same behavior being perpetuated by black cops. It is not a blue thing as Tbone noted but a conditioned thing.

I believe that solutions should include providing a path to a clean record and education for non violent offenders. Fix drug laws. Education and discouragement or de-incentivize babies having babies.

The continued murder of kids in inner cites represents an issue yet no one talks about it, protests, starts threads here but the hint of a white cop killing an innocent kid starts riots shows a misplacement of rage.

The real issue is black on black crime, drug laws and use, incarceration rates, babies having babies.

The real issue is actually why those are issues.

No I never did that either. I said that you can not blame slavery as the reason people are racist. Remember this is about the supposition that white racist cops are some major cause of all the problems in the black community. I note that Slavery did not cause racist cops...Go back and read...

I also noted how most people in America, white people have no connection to slavery in their families. So how could slavery make white people racist....careful answering that question....

Funny how some one could be so appalled yet completely not be able to read what was written

Also include poverty in the list....

However you will lose the majority of America and myself if you blame white racist cops as a significant cause of these issues.

couldn't have said it better myself.

on these issues. I just felt like saying my piece, I have no interest in debating you for hours.

I don't think you're completely wrong. There are issues in the black community that only black people can solve. But the root of all these issues always come back to the same thing. Institutionalized Racism that this country was founded on.

What "protests" do you expect to see against crime? You expect people to hold a protest to say that crime is bad?

The protests occur because the institution that is supposed to be protecting society as a whole is targeting a segment of our country and has a disproportionate amount of violence surrounded by dubious circumstances with dubious investigations.

The police are supposed to protect the citizens of the country. That is what is being protested against.

You want a protest for people to say that criminals are bad? Is this protest supposed to deter criminals? Because with the protests aimed at the government, the idea is to initiate reform within the government.

Also, are you trying to imply that people can only focus on one thing at a time?

Finally, you keep clinging to this DEAD KIDS ON A WEEKLY BASIS concept, completely ignoring the fact that this sort of bias and these types of incidents happen outside of the most dangerous crime ridden areas. I mean just a couple weeks ago, an old Indian man who did not speak English was body slammed to the ground and was partially paralyzed after being handcuffed. The police report was not consistent with what the dashcam showed as well.

I know it's tangentially related because the victim isn't black, and this is simply the first example that popped into my mind, but the main takeaway here is that these types of incidents and biases don't occur exclusively in Robocop-esque crime ridden projects/areas.

In comment 12173588 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Quote: ow you can say "incarceration rates" are a problem, but absolve a biased police force or court system of any blame. I never did this. I said that it is a much smaller problem facing the community then black on black violent crime, drug laws, etc.... You keep changing what I said to make it sound extreme because you are 100% wrong and the only way to win the argument is to re characterize what I said...which makes you pathetic

haha, what? I'm 100% wrong?

What the fuck am I 100% wrong about? Do you even know what you're arguing against?

You're trying to tell me that a legal and law enforcement system that is bias against a group of people is not a big problem. I'm telling you it is.

Do you have any quantifiable argument to highlight exactly how this isn't a "big" problem?

and the tendency...which can be overcome for a culture and family shock to a whole people to result in generations of rolling PTSD and hopelessness and just enough examples to convince one in that situation that in America...for them...the glass is and always will be half empty

We all are familiar with folks privledged or not on many metrics who fall prey to the glass half empty rationale for not being all they could be....does not take much to look to family and history and partial examples and conclude that the odds are so stacked that day to day recklessness is all that is available to them.

Do they have the responsibility to overcome by dint of trying? Of course.

But having responsibility and seeing the path and having the goals, work habits and optimism and discipline and will power (habits learned inside families) are all different things

In comment 12173558 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Quote: That institutional bias throughout our policing and law enforcement establishments has a disastrous affect on the progress of minority communities, particular black communities? Disastrous effect? Really? It is this that is causing black to commit so much violent crime against other blacks? Do you even know or can you describe any details to your statement?

Man, this is really really hard to believe. I'm at a loss for words.

You really need someone to explain how a police force and legal system that unfairly targets a segment of society has horrendous affects for the targeted segment?

Like, what? I don't know. Put on your big boy pants and your thinking cap and brainstorm.

Now you need me to come up with stats to prove your hyperbole wrong? JFC.....Its all white racist cops. They are the cause of most of the issues in the black community. Got it....and if you believe that you deserve what you get.

In comment 12173571 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

You think institutional racism is the problem....? Not gangs, guns, drugs, ?????????? Ask anyone that has worked in these communities and they will laugh at you.

Again, skirting over the fact that
1)this is not exclusive to high crime areas
2) there can be more than one problem
3) institutional racism perpetuates these problems, which only serves to further justify the institutional racism. Again, it's a circle. You can't pick a starting point out of a circle.

The big difference is that you think this systemic biases aren't a big deal. I think they're a huge deal that should never be tolerated under any circumstances. It's a huge part of the problem and a huge piece of the puzzle.

Did you ever stop to think how simply stomping out the mentality that the police and legal system do not treat blacks as fairly as whites would have an impact on community attitudes and crime?

Yeah, its a wonder any black people make it at all huh? smh
..

except most do...no lets blame slavery and rolling PTSD....These problems exist in poor white and hispanic neighborhoods too...is it rolling PTSD there too?

Quote:

Did you ever stop to think how simply stomping out the mentality that the police and legal system do not treat blacks as fairly as whites would have an impact on community attitudes and crime?

An impact sure. Isn't going to happen though....do you know why? Because cops seeing dead kids and gang violence every day conditions them. It is why there are black cops just as bad as the white ones. But if you mention that, it is just the blue code of silence...

always ignoring the elephant in the room of massive violence and death in these neighborhoods. Until that stops the rest will not...or cops will simply stop going into these neighborhoods which happens.

It raises a good question. When neighborhoods get so bad that cops will simply avoid them, is it still a racist cop, institutional racism that is causing the issue?

In comment 12173695 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Now you need me to come up with stats to prove your hyperbole wrong? JFC.....Its all white racist cops. They are the cause of most of the issues in the black community. Got it....and if you believe that you deserve what you get.

Wow. You're being intentionally obtuse. Over and over again I've said that these problems perpetuate eachother. Draw a fucking circle out and look at it.

But trying to contend that systemic bias is not a huge piece of the problem is ridiculous.

And drop your RACIST WHITE COPS11 shtick. In any society, a police force and legal system that is unfair against a segment of the population will have profoundly negative effects. You can boil it down to white vs black, but it doesn't matter if it's the Prawns from District 9. It's an obvious truth to any civilized society.

It's not really a hyperbole, and it's not really hard to understand.

Why don't you go ahead and read that DOJ report on Ferguson, and think about how you would feel if you were a black person living in Ferguson. That's a good starting point for you.

In fact (and it's amazing this even needs to be asked): did you even read the article on the DOJ report from the OP?

I insist that my gross oversimplification is correct!

Bullshit! My gross oversimplification is correct!

I made the mistake of talking to you before realizing who you are.

If I don't post to you Film...don't post or use what I posted. Your goal is to drain your feeling you got a bad hand in your old neighborhood. Ok...you did. Its your hand to rise beyond the personal wound without attaching rage to people on the internet talking with each other. Same as I explained years ago. So for us same rules for us as before Film.

We root for the Giants. You have a good heart. you ran a business and employed people and did good work for clients. Bravo. But You let wounds overwhelm you in ways I cant engage.

Take care

In comment 12173712 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Quote: Did you ever stop to think how simply stomping out the mentality that the police and legal system do not treat blacks as fairly as whites would have an impact on community attitudes and crime? An impact sure. Isn't going to happen though....do you know why? Because cops seeing dead kids and gang violence every day conditions them. It is why there are black cops just as bad as the white ones. But if you mention that, it is just the blue code of silence... always ignoring the elephant in the room of massive violence and death in these neighborhoods. Until that stops the rest will not...or cops will simply stop going into these neighborhoods which happens. It raises a good question. When neighborhoods get so bad that cops will simply avoid them, is it still a racist cop, institutional racism that is causing the issue?

So why does this happen in low crime, suburban neighborhoods as well? Is Ferguson a particularly dangerous community? Is Ferguson equivalent to Brownsville or the South Bronx in the late 80s?

WHat? First of all I am not film giant.

Second your posting on this thread has been well below your usual abilities. I think you are out of your element here.

My old neighborhood? Interesting attempt at some sort of analysis there but I am fine. I grew up in a mixed neighborhood which helped to give some perspective on life I suppose but it is hardly driving any of my thought process here. I have traveled the world since I left the bronx at 16, ...25 years ago...and had a nice life...

One which anyone could probably attain actually.

Because it is profiling and it is wrong. But what does that have to do with high violent crime rates in certain neighborhoods and how is that effected by cops. You are so lost.

most accurate post to some extent in the past 24 hours

Yeah i could see that, would explain the sheer idiocy

Here is my overall position and none of you have the balls to address it...why? Because you know I am right

My overall thoughts here

We are all the same. Black, white, brown

Racism and abuse by cops represents a very small amount of the issue effecting black progress yet receives most of the attention.

The real issue is black on black crime, drug laws and use, incarceration rates, babies having babies.

Racism is born out of fear. As long as black represent a vast % per capita of violent crime, and black men have criminals records at a rate of 1/3 there will be continued fear resulting in racism.

Cops are not naturally racist but become conditioned by working in black communities where the crime is. This is also evidenced by the same behavior being perpetuated by black cops. It is not a blue thing as Tbone noted but a conditioned thing.

I believe that solutions should include providing a path to a clean record and education for non violent offenders. Fix drug laws. Education and discouragement or de-incentivize babies having babies.

The continued murder of kids in inner cites represents an issue yet no one talks about it, protests, starts threads here but the hint of a white cop killing an innocent kid starts riots shows a misplacement of rage.

close enough to merit the same distance.

like Film...your presence on a thread makes it hard to discuss a subject. Like him when you were on a thread it was hard to even defend a legitimate conservative viewpoint or discuss any legitimate viewpoint. Same experience for posters. If you landed on a thread...it was destroyed.

There was or is or is elsewhere sites created just for you. Please use them. or not.

there is enough out there for folks to do what we should have done much earlier with Film...just ignore him no matter what he uses to keep it going.

same tells if you think about it

More BS. I am on a fair number of threads. Just these Ferguson ones seem to result in this mess....And one more time since none of you can address I will keep reposting

Here is my overall position and none of you have the balls to address it...why? Because you know I am right

My overall thoughts here

We are all the same. Black, white, brown

Racism and abuse by cops represents a very small amount of the issue effecting black progress yet receives most of the attention.

The real issue is black on black crime, drug laws and use, incarceration rates, babies having babies.

Racism is born out of fear. As long as black represent a vast % per capita of violent crime, and black men have criminals records at a rate of 1/3 there will be continued fear resulting in racism.

Cops are not naturally racist but become conditioned by working in black communities where the crime is. This is also evidenced by the same behavior being perpetuated by black cops. It is not a blue thing as Tbone noted but a conditioned thing.

I believe that solutions should include providing a path to a clean record and education for non violent offenders. Fix drug laws. Education and discouragement or de-incentivize babies having babies.

The continued murder of kids in inner cites represents an issue yet no one talks about it, protests, starts threads here but the hint of a white cop killing an innocent kid starts riots shows a misplacement of rage.

which you've posted like 17 times now.

Every wonder why it is almost all the same people on this thread attacking me, that attack on every thread they are on. Bill2 is probably the only exception, maybe Osi..not sure...

Nah it must be me. You guys can't even discuss the Mets or Knicks let alone the Giants without the standard vitriol.....nah must be me....

You want to know why donations are down? I just told you.

No they haven't... we have PTSD as an excuse and institutional racism...

In comment 12173890 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

Quote:

which you've posted like 17 times now.

We really have. It's just that since he's not getting the answers HE believes are the correct ones, he keeps saying no one's addressing them. Just as he keeps posting articles that speak the truth and expects everyone to read them... and yet doesn't even bother to click on links that are provided to him that express a different viewpoint.

But hey... he's open to discussion so...

In comment 12173769 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Because it is profiling and it is wrong. But what does that have to do with high violent crime rates in certain neighborhoods and how is that effected by cops. You are so lost.

Ok unrelated but dude, learn the difference between affect and effect. This doesn't have anything to do with the content of your post but c'mon, it's not that hard.

Second of all, I don't know why you're interjecting "certain neighborhoods" into this.

The fact that this occurs in suburban areas that do not have astronomical crime rates shows that you are wrong about black people basically bringing this upon themselves due to the myriad of factors you listed, because they face similar issues in areas where the factors you listed are not as prevalent.

So, bringing it back to the actual OP of this thread - the DOJ's findings on Ferguson PD is absolutely vile and reprehensible and should not be tolerated under any circumstances. Additionally, it's absurd to simply blame these circumstances on black community in Ferguson.

More hyperbole...I keep posting articles? I think I posted three articles, probably two and one was a speech fromt he president.

no one wants you here. Shoo!

In comment 12174002 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

More hyperbole...I keep posting articles? I think I posted three articles, probably two and one was a speech fromt he president.

Again, seeing things only the way you want to see them. I never mentioned the amount of articles you've posted... just that you keep posting them with the expectation that those of us you're arguing against should read them... and yet you don't bother to read the articles that were posted as a response.

I'm quickly learning that reading comprehension isn't a strong suit of yours.

...Film could never control his anger. The tone is all wrong.

In comment 12174050 x meadowlander said:

Quote:

...Film could never control his anger. The tone is all wrong.

Agree with this. The way he argues is 'Film-like'... but like x said, Film would've blown his top by now.

...if he goes off like a rocket, it's Film/mgorga.

In comment 12174050 x meadowlander said:

Quote:

...Film could never control his anger. The tone is all wrong.

That was 9 years ago. As Bill points out, the very same dunderhead style of debating using generalizations, and the complete refusal to acknowledge all the times proven wrong and faults in his own argument, is exactly like that moron mgorga

I think it is Film.

I think the rage is less...but the same triggers...same behavior to others. Same willingness to burn bridges. same pattern of leaving and then coming back to race through challenges to posters talking to each other In his absence. Same put words in others mouth. same distortion to hyperbole of a post without context. Same strawmen stuck in your mouth. refuses to actually engage in give an take. goads people into personal attacks by infuritating twists of their words and then gets other to support how badly he was attacked

Same Bronx neighborhood rememberances

I had hoped the intervening years softened the rage for I did not see how Film could last without a burst artery on some of those threads.

Same thinking on race and police

yes there are some atmospherics that are different. and better.

In comment 12174779 Bill2 said:

Quote:

I think it is Film. I think the rage is less...but the same triggers...same behavior to others. Same willingness to burn bridges. same pattern of leaving and then coming back to race through challenges to posters talking to each other In his absence. Same put words in others mouth. same distortion to hyperbole of a post without context. Same strawmen stuck in your mouth. refuses to actually engage in give an take. goads people into personal attacks by infuritating twists of their words and then gets other to support how badly he was attacked Same Bronx neighborhood rememberances I had hoped the intervening years softened the rage for I did not see how Film could last without a burst artery on some of those threads. Same thinking on race and police yes there are some atmospherics that are different. and better.

100% spot on

The analyses may be cockeyed, but they are consistent, and not rage-filled. Film couldn't do either of those.

Was about 10-15 years older then me and 100% opposite me in political views but prattle on....This says quite a bit about you guys actually....kind of funny

In comment 12175072 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Was about 10-15 years older then me and 100% opposite me in political views but prattle on....This says quite a bit about you guys actually....kind of funny

It says a lot more about you.

I'd probably change my handle and then take a very long shower.

Self-important and smarmy does not match up well with self-aware and reflective.

A handful of douches on a message board that usually get into arguments wherever they post don't like me? Boo friggin hoo.

I know what I am saying is correct. It is based on experienced and education. If anything, what I have learned is that race relations are not going to change in any expedited manner because it what is thought by many here is really enabling, and makes it acceptable to place the blame for their failures on others.

This whole thing while funny on one level is sad too for these reasons. And it ignores the real issues which none of you seem able to deal with...so the beat goes on, nothing will change.

Obama nailed it in the speech I linked earlier really...In between being called a racist, a bigot etc...you guys should have read it.

He sounds the same on facebook now as he did on BBI years back. This poster is too controlled.

Quote:

I know what I am saying is correct. It is based on experienced and education.

Really? So tell me then... what racist experiences have you experienced? What education have you had on the subject? What literature have you read (besides the articles you've linked... one of which you've quoted over and over again)? Besides the horror stories your friends have told you, what stories of racism have you personally seen and experienced in person?

Answer those questions... if you dare.

plus life's experience....

Now to prove my point on how full of shit you guys are.

Quote:

one of which you've quoted over and over again

Which article did I quote over and over over again? Please be specific or admit that once again you guys are just making shit up

In comment 12175339 Big Al said:

Quote:

He sounds the same on facebook now as he did on BBI years back. This poster is too controlled.

Agreed.

Including many studies...all from school...That was quite a number of years ago. Stories have a heard? Many

A friend who worked from me would tell me about getting pulled over and harassed by cops. African, middle class engineer, speaks like 5 languages...wife worked at UN.

Others were general stories..

Also have the other side too, criminals thugs, like takers, drug dealers, gang bangers....

also experience with pedophiles....they are the creepiest to talk to.

In comment 12175437 PA Giant Fan said:

Quote:

Including many studies...all from school...That was quite a number of years ago. Stories have a heard? Many A friend who worked from me would tell me about getting pulled over and harassed by cops. African, middle class engineer, speaks like 5 languages...wife worked at UN. Others were general stories.. Also have the other side too, criminals thugs, like takers, drug dealers, gang bangers.... also experience with pedophiles....they are the creepiest to talk to.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear... what racist experiences have YOU had.

Also, if you could name just one of those books you've read (along with the author if you can), that would be helpful as well.

The reason I ask is because I'd like to read whoever or whatever you read that gave you the idea that ending black on black crime will end racism. Or is that a concept you came up with on your own?

I have been to Africa but that is not the same. Africans and American black people are very different. Richard Pryor talks about this because he could. I obviously can't. This is perspecive totally changes some thoughts on race....

Have I been discriminated against since I am Jewish? Not sure. Maybe...However I have had plenty of obstacles in life and nothing was ever going to stop me really.

I see you can't show the article you claim I quoted over and over since you made that shit up as usual.

How did I come to the conclusion that racism is based on fear? And that the high violent crime rates associated with blacks in America generates fear thus generating racism.......You need me to connect those dots?

The main stay replacement for liberal arts degrees in the 80's

LOL>.....From Montana...insult my degrees..I have plenty of other business certifications and degrees too.

Lets see

Posters opposing me caught in several lies and misstatements about things i have said

Called a bigot, a racist, even a nazi

Posters here oppose each other but unwilling to note the differences even when I point them out..

I put my entire thoughts out there and you guys can't address them You say you have but you haven't

That you actually thought that was a good point about your degrees

That is what is so funny. Being a good point about my degrees? I was asked what my education was. Just so happens I studies criminal justice and sociology which probably trumps you idiots. I have also been on the other side of the law too and understand how that works.

But somehow that hurts my argument when someone asks what my education is?

How come every thread you post on ends up in an argument?

My overall thoughts here

We are all the same. Black, white, brown

Racism and abuse by cops represents a very small amount of the issue effecting black progress yet receives most of the attention.

The real issue is black on black crime, drug laws and use, incarceration rates, babies having babies.

Racism is born out of fear. As long as black represent a vast % per capita of violent crime, and black men have criminals records at a rate of 1/3 there will be continued fear resulting in racism.

Cops are not naturally racist but become conditioned by working in black communities where the crime is. This is also evidenced by the same behavior being perpetuated by black cops. It is not a blue thing as Tbone noted but a conditioned thing.

I believe that solutions should include providing a path to a clean record and education for non violent offenders. Fix drug laws. Education and discouragement or de-incentivize babies having babies.

The continued murder of kids in inner cites represents an issue yet no one talks about it, protests, starts threads here but the hint of a white cop killing an innocent kid starts riots shows a misplacement of rage.

OK, so tell me how the Jim Crow south got started. Please.


Of all of your ridiculous statements, that is the most pathetic. And insulting.

To Racism.

Sociology 101 hardly qualifies for that

No institutional racism or racism in general. There is and always will be racism on some level. You guys said that...not me...

This is in response to cops, racism and effects therein. You guys can't seem to manage multiple concepts ocurring at the same time resulting in different effects.

My point all along is that the high violent crime rates helps perpetuate fear which increases racism.

This idea of racist cops running rampant and causing the problems facing black communities such as poverty, crime, drugs, incarceration, is ridiculous and is putting the cart before the horse.

Maybe you think that taking Sociology 101 gets you a 4 year degree but in the real world you have to take many many classes. Double major with CJ increases that number much further.....

Why are some people racist against blacks? If you know any racist people, tell me what they say and believe.

time to put this thread to rest.

I am done....Please don't delete though as has been the trend I am sure people will say I said things that I didn't. People will call me a racist or a bigot later based on a thread that doesn't exist...

but I thought it would be a good place to ask a question.
What's the percent of Giants fans in Philly like?

OK...seriously though, I am friends with a person who is very nice, he is not racist, and has treated me quite well.
But, he is from Texas, no college education, smart, but not educated and this has caused a huge argument.

Back when the riots happened he claimed this was just a bunch of welfare bums who had nothing better to do than blame somebody. I tried then saying, this probably was the manifestation of simmering tension between a black community and a poorly trained police department which did not practice community policing and have a cooperative relationship.

I also said the lack of minority representation was a problem because communities need advocates, role models, and trust. Having 3 black cops, it just gives off a bad perception.

He started by saying...maybe they only have 3 black officers because the residents are bums, why should they spend money targeting minorities instead of the best cop available. He told me when he listens to a rap station it angers him that they advertise for police officers on that network. Why should they be prioritizing one race.

I explained, there is a history of deep seeded mistrust between cops and minorities, that many view them as hostile, and they need to mend fences to encourage people to be recruited. He just repeated that why should they hire crocks.

I told him about the civil rights violations. His response was, don't break the law. When I told him it was over non sense like jaywalking, to people trying to get to work at Wal Mart because they have NO car and public transit has been slashed by republicans who don't want to pay taxes, that the cops were basically tax collectors, he said...the person should have left 5 minutes earlier.

He said if racism is alive, then why does he have black friends who have careers and nice cars?

It went on, and on, and on.
This is an otherwise nice person, who is a good friend, otherwise I'd just ignore him. I find it VERY hard to deal with this an ignore...how do YOU folks handle people like this who you have to deal with regularly?

Some people just see a binary world, they don't know there are many points of view that cannot be generalized at the macro level. Very frustrating.

I'll just reply to hudson's post.

Simple answer, at some point it's probably best not to continue trying to debate with someone who has their mind made up (no matter how wrong they may be). I should've followed my own advice a long time ago with regards to this thread. Some people will have a particular mindset towards most everything and everyone and no amount of evidence contrary to their beliefs will change their minds. He seems dead set on saying that people won't accept blame (or making excuses) for their behavior... while making every excuse in the book to support his own views.

I know of more than a few black folks who place all of the struggles of black people in America on the 'white man' and yet doesn't want to acknowledge that we share in some of the blame for our own struggles due to various reasons. As you probably know, it can and does go both ways. It can be very frustrating because if you dare suggest that black people can and should change our mindset with regards to how we deal with certain issues, you're called a 'sell out' or 'Uncle Tom'. I usually just avoid these people or if I can't, I just don't have those kinds of conversations with them anymore.

You say he's your friend and supposedly a 'good guy' so I'm not going to suggest staying away from him (that wouldn't be my place anyway... you're an adult, you befriend who you want of course), but in the future you may just want to avoid debates/arguments regarding that particular issue with him as he's seems dead set on placing complete and total blame on a group of people instead of acknowledging that blame can and should... be placed on both sides.

It's hard when this happens to people you really can't just avoid. This person happens to be ex-military, so he sees on everything, a binary world, where there are two ways of doing things, the right way, and the wrong way, and there is only one right way.

I thought for awhile that liberal arts was a bunch of useless shit that won't help you get a job; but now I see the value that kind of education can have on people.

in protest. Damn

Time to bulldoze that fucking shithole.

In comment 12178079 Giants4246 said:

Quote:

Time to bulldoze that fucking shithole.

Maybe this is enough to delete this mess?

In comment 12178089 BMac said:

Quote:

In comment 12178079 Giants4246 said: Quote: Time to bulldoze that fucking shithole. Maybe this is enough to delete this mess?

Animals? That's some seriously racist shit right there. Forget deleting the thread. BAN the poster.

and this administration sure looks great again this morning. Please dear God save us from what is happening around us.

In comment 12178252 The 12th Man said:

Quote:

and this administration sure looks great again this morning. Please dear God save us from what is happening around us.

What kind of stupid bullshit is this? What does this have to do with "Eric Holder and the administration".

Does this somehow absolve the findings of the DOJ? Are you trying to justify it? Can you explain to me how "Eric Holder and the administration" have anything to do with this?

Are you just speaking partisan bullshit out of your ass?

In comment 12178252 The 12th Man said:

Quote:

and this administration sure looks great again this morning. Please dear God save us from what is happening around us.

Only in the mind of someone blinded by partisanship with a clear agenda does this have any reflection on "Eric Holder and the administration".

As if somehow, this incident means that Ferguson PD just wasn't so bad after all, right?

But nah, its cool... this shooting definitely means Eric Holder has egg on his face for calling out a police department as rampantly racist and despicable.

I'm sure this has more to do with Eric Holder and the administration than the way the police department has treated the residents of the city.

(note: obviously the idiots who actually shot are most responsible).

In comment 12178238 x meadowlander said:

Quote:

In comment 12178089 BMac said: Quote: In comment 12178079 Giants4246 said: Quote: Time to bulldoze that fucking shithole. Maybe this is enough to delete this mess? Animals? That's some seriously racist shit right there. Forget deleting the thread. BAN the poster.

Fuck off asswipe. Yes, they're fucking animals. Whats racist about it? Burning the town to the ground, shooting at cops, what else would you call them? Why dont you go down to ferguson and volunteer your time to help clean up that mess?

In comment 12178252 The 12th Man said:

Quote:

and this administration sure looks great again this morning. Please dear God save us from what is happening around us.

What an idiotic comment to make..lol

In comment 12178581 Giants4246 said:

Quote:

In comment 12178238 x meadowlander said: Quote: In comment 12178089 BMac said: Quote: In comment 12178079 Giants4246 said: Quote: Time to bulldoze that fucking shithole. Maybe this is enough to delete this mess? Animals? That's some seriously racist shit right there. Forget deleting the thread. BAN the poster. Fuck off asswipe. Yes, they're fucking animals. Whats racist about it? Burning the town to the ground, shooting at cops, what else would you call them? Why dont you go down to ferguson and volunteer your time to help clean up that mess?

Why don't you do the same?

with thinly veiled racial slurs (animals, thugs) is beyond me.

In comment 12178604 montanagiant said:

Quote:

In comment 12178581 Giants4246 said: Quote: In comment 12178238 x meadowlander said: Quote: In comment 12178089 BMac said: Quote: In comment 12178079 Giants4246 said: Quote: Time to bulldoze that fucking shithole. Maybe this is enough to delete this mess? Animals? That's some seriously racist shit right there. Forget deleting the thread. BAN the poster. Fuck off asswipe. Yes, they're fucking animals. Whats racist about it? Burning the town to the ground, shooting at cops, what else would you call them? Why dont you go down to ferguson and volunteer your time to help clean up that mess? Why don't you do the same?

You couldn't pay me to go that shithole for any reason, that's why. Why don't you?

About how the whole place should be blown up while sitting on my ass 1000 miles away

In comment 12178665 Giants4246 said:

Quote:

In comment 12178604 montanagiant said: Animals? That's some seriously racist shit right there. Forget deleting the thread. BAN the poster. Fuck off asswipe. Yes, they're fucking animals. Whats racist about it? Burning the town to the ground, shooting at cops, what else would you call them? Why dont you go down to ferguson and volunteer your time to help clean up that mess? Why don't you do the same? You couldn't pay me to go that shithole for any reason, that's why. Why don't you?

Absolutely disgusting. Some low people on this board.