| The Justice Department reports that its investigation into law enforcement in Ferguson, Mo., found that the police and courts meted out illegal and unduly harsh treatment, particularly to black people. One of the reports released Wednesday, "Investigation of the Ferguson Police Department," says the mistreatment is due to discrimination, and a primary focus on maximizing city revenue through citations, not to keeping the peace. |
| Ferguson's Municipal Court, which is actually run by the chief of police, is part of the city's revenue-raising machinery, the report found, with court officials routinely levying excessive fines and fees, and violating people's rights. |
| Black people in Ferguson regularly report racial epithets being used against them by police officers, but a search of city e-mail accounts by the Justice Department also showed many racist remarks casually traded by police supervisors and court officials. |
| The Justice Department also found that officers regularly exceed their authority and mistreat people. |
If you think this isn't status quo anywhere besides some backward part of Missouri, don't know what to tell you.
The Ferguson Police Department: The Justice Department Report, Annotated - (
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But that is not what I said.
What I said was that the vast majority of protesters were NOT among the looters. Yet they get smeared and their legitimate grievances get discounted.
One Klan affiliate was that woman who was shown to have lied about being present when Michael Brown was killed. Many media sources showed that her account could not possibly have been true. If you think that bona fide racists and klan members weren't doing their part to undermine the protests...or weren't among those who lionized Wilson, then you're not paying attention.
There are opportunists on all sides.
Yes but I don't claim to know. As you point out, it is very convenient for those who suppose nothing is wrong to say "look at those horrible people, they're burning their own town down." And it is equally convenient for those who want to find racists hiding behind every rock and bush to say "these were all provocateurs and opportunists from out of town. The locals were the ones marching peacefully by day." Why should either agenda-driven narrative be deemed credible?
Here you're mixing apples and oranges.
I didn't say that the ones rioting weren't locals. I said that the majority of the protesters were peaceful.
And the history of racist sabotage of civil rights demonstrations is deep and documented. Not to mention that there was documentation of Klan attempts to sabotage the protests (not claiming *they* were rioting) and of Klan members in local police in the St Louis area.
The broader point I was making was to point out how painting all protesters as rioters was a subtle or lazy form of racism, performed by those who were able to parse bad behavior by the local authorities and by the local racist organizations.
I believe our analysis of the situation is closer than you may think.
Do you think they, too, should be smeared as "rioters"?
Do you think they, too, should be smeared as "rioters"?
I think the looters should be smeared as looters. We saw some very positive, heartwarming stories coming out of that mess and hopefully we'll see more. But as I've said several times the last fifty or so years of the history of civil unrest suggests that it'll be a very tough road for the community. Money, and those with it, will likely flee and the end result will be more suffering for people who have seen enough.
There are a lot of storylines in this. To some of them I am very sympathetic, to some of them I am less so, but I don't think the idea that it can or should be wrapped into one comprehensive narrative on a region and its people is accurate.
And the kid robbed a convenient store 15 minutes earlier and almost everyone confirms seeing Brown halfway into the police car when a shot was fired....
Can we say that we are 95% sure that Wilson was justified..
Trying to continue to say Wilson might have done this or that only further perpetuates the problem.
I don't think I would be comfortable with an "objective standard" that demanded the police get in the car and leave while a dangerous violent person even if unarmed is left to roam the street. Not exactly protect and serve the public.
The standards for a Federal civil rights indictment are higher and quite different than for a state manslaughter indictment. There never was much chance that Wilson would be indicted at the federal level, and it isn't in the slightest bit indicative of his guilt or innocence.
People want to know when racism will end. But no one asks the right questions. The answer is when one segment of society is arrested for a comparable # of crimes per capita as other races.
The reasons for this can be addressed but no one is talking about it here and no one really does because it requires a person to ask the right questions and take them down paths they can't really handle due to ideology.
The other answer is time....Each generation things get better. And eventually we will all be some shade of brown anyway.
Btw, linked is a wonderful article on Pro Publica on the experience of dealing with the police among a large segment of black Americans. I am confident taht you won't find it useful or convincing, but that says much about you and little about the experience described.
It starts with the experience of a group of black professionals who witnessed a criminal who had shot off a gun.
“Someone was just shooting on the beach,” she said, between gulps of air, to the person on the line.
Unable to imagine whom she would be calling at that moment, I asked her, somewhat indignantly, if she couldn’t have waited until we got to safety before calling her mom.
“No,” she said. “I am talking to the police.”
My friends and I locked eyes in stunned silence. Between the four adults, we hold six degrees. Three of us are journalists. And not one of us had thought to call the police. We had not even considered it.
We also are all black. And without realizing it, in that moment, each of us had made a set of calculations, an instantaneous weighing of the pros and cons.
As far as we could tell, no one had been hurt. The shooter was long gone, and we had seen the back of him for only a second or two. On the other hand, calling the police posed considerable risks. It carried the very real possibility of inviting disrespect, even physical harm. We had seen witnesses treated like suspects, and knew how quickly black people calling the police for help could wind up cuffed in the back of a squad car. Some of us knew of black professionals who’d had guns drawn on them for no reason.
This was before Michael Brown. Before police killed John Crawford III for carrying a BB gun in a Wal-Mart or shot down 12-year-old Tamir Rice in a Cleveland park. Before Akai Gurley was killed by an officer while walking in a dark staircase and before Eric Garner was choked to death upon suspicion of selling “loosies.” Without yet knowing those names, we all could go down a list of unarmed black people killed by law enforcement.
We feared what could happen if police came rushing into a group of people who, by virtue of our skin color, might be mistaken for suspects...
For those of you reading this who may not be black, or perhaps Latino, this is my chance to tell you that a substantial portion of your fellow citizens in the United States of America have little expectation of being treated fairly by the law or receiving justice. It’s possible this will come as a surprise to you. But to a very real extent, you have grown up in a different country than I have.
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Truth is the answers to these issues are mostly in front of our noses but no one is willing to address them.
Truth is the answers to these issues are mostly in front of thug's noses but no thug is willing to address them.
The police thing is more of a symptom then a problem. You will see Hispanics surpassing blacks on almost every socio-economic measure, education, college entry etc....
Ask yourself this - Which group is targeted more by police. Hispanics or Blacks? Careful though, you won't like what you find based on your ideology.
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What are they, herr oberstrummfuhrer?
But you are doing a good job of highlighting the actual problem although you have no idea you are doing so.
Since the poorest third of all black all white and all Asian societies are also arrested and serve more time for "crimes" than other strata...Please help me understand how your contention is factually sound and not based on correlation or conflation?
So much attention to cops against blacks but Nitro where are your threads about black on black crime? Blacks are far more in danger of other blacks then they will ever be of whites or white cops.
When you accept this and address it....much of the race issue will fade away.
White racism and white cops are a bogeyman, a strawman which further creates a segment of the population unwilling to address the real problems.
n New York from January to June 2008, 83 percent of all gun assailants were black, according to witnesses and victims, though blacks were only 24 percent of the population. Blacks and Hispanics together accounted for 98 percent of all gun assailants. Forty-nine of every 50 muggings and murders in the Big Apple were the work of black or Hispanic criminals.
Hispanics are surpassing blacks in many areas....do you think whites just like Hispanics more?
At 6:29 you said:
Not even a half hour later you said (in response to mg asking if you read an article he posted for your benefit):
This is where one of your contradictions come in. You say you 'respect' others viewpoints... but you didn't even bother to read an article that was posted for you to read. THEN you have the nerve to post an article yourself just six minutes later (I guess it took about that much time for you to find the article you read almost 2 years ago that supports your view that black people bring racism onto themselves... which I'll get to in a second) that supposedly has 'a lot of truth' in it. You have a strange way of 'respecting' others opinion when you don't bother to read and/or ignore them all together. You keep acting like you are so open to having some kind of dialogue about race.... that the rest of us don't want to ask about... and yet you have neither stated what it is that needs to be asked or talked about. You're like the kid who keeps saying he knows the answer to the question and he can't believe the rest of the people in the room can't figure it out... when you really have no idea what the question is... much less the answer.
Which brings me to this beauty:
When you accept this and address it....much of the race issue will fade away.
So... if I'm reading this right (and please correct me if I'm wrong)... what you're saying is that if there is less black on black crime... some white people aren't gonna hate black people any more? Do you not see how silly that sounds? So extinguishing black on black crime will cause much of the race issues in the country to 'fade away'? You truly believe that? I guess that would make sense... if it weren't for the fact that black on black crime was at it's lowest points during the '60's and '70's... and yet that was when racism was much more alive and well in this country than it will ever be again. How would you explain that? I'd love to know.
Lastly, for whatever reason you keep typing this:
To that I say, what da hell does that matter? I would ask what these 'areas' are... but frankly I don't care. Matter of fact, good for them as a race if they are! I, personally, am happy for them and hope they as a race continue to progress and do well. I'm not sure what hispanic people as a race doing well has to do with police brutality and racism against black people... but whatever.
Actually, that was second to last because THIS is last:
First off, indicator of what? I've seen it repeated on here not just by you but at least one other that 'economics' play a part in this... which is a 'part yes'... but a small part because well off, educated, white collar black men(and they do exist) are nearly as likely to be targeted by racist cops as that thug on the corner selling weed. It's not like those kind of cops ONLY target the poor black folks. They don't discriminate. To some of them, an educated nigger is just an 'uppity one... but a nigger nevertheless'. So please, everyone, stop making this sound like economics play a large part when it comes to police brutality and racism against black people. As has been proven time and time again... it doesn't matter how much green you got... you're still and always will be black first.
You act like you know what can abolish slavery in this country but honestly... I don't think you have a clue. I can at least see where someone like Duned is coming from, even if I disagree with some of his points. You... I'm convinced... are not a racist person but a person who is in denial of what's really going on in this country. I at least get the impression that a guy like Duned doesn't have his head in the sand as you seem to.
On the other hand, sometimes it is pleasurable to point out to the rest of the world just how big a stain a shitstain is, so there is that.
I know I'm probably gonna regret that post because I truly wasn't interested in getting involved and now I am. But I couldn't take it any longer. I mean c'mon... because a black man robs another one... that's why some white people hate them? What kind of warped, twisted logic is that?
I didn't even realize they had left. Ash disagreed with something I said a couple months ago and I never responded because I was on the road, I'll have to drop him a line.
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Darren Wilson's reputation was made in a system that was corrupt and ethically depraved as noted in the report. Since its being dismantled, he will have to start from scratch, which is a greater good.
This sheer idiocy is a good bit of why police end up alienated from the communities they serve. You inveigh on things you know nothing about and gleefully sacrifice the reputation (just as you would have gleefully sacrificed the liberty) of a public servant to the "greater good." You're a moron.
Police end up alienated from the communities they 'serve' when they racially profile and are guilty of what the Ferguson police are guilty of. You're just as guilty of inveighing something you know nothing about. You're a moron.
I know I'm probably gonna regret that post because I truly wasn't interested in getting involved and now I am. But I couldn't take it any longer. I mean c'mon... because a black man robs another one... that's why some white people hate them? What kind of warped, twisted logic is that?
Don't regret it, it was a great post.
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In comment 12164681 WideRight said:
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Darren Wilson's reputation was made in a system that was corrupt and ethically depraved as noted in the report. Since its being dismantled, he will have to start from scratch, which is a greater good.
This sheer idiocy is a good bit of why police end up alienated from the communities they serve. You inveigh on things you know nothing about and gleefully sacrifice the reputation (just as you would have gleefully sacrificed the liberty) of a public servant to the "greater good." You're a moron.
Police end up alienated from the communities they 'serve' when they racially profile and are guilty of what the Ferguson police are guilty of. You're just as guilty of inveighing something you know nothing about. You're a moron.
You don't have to agree with what the police do or how they do it, but if you lack the ability to even begin to put yourself in their shoes - because you know law enforcement officers as family or friends - and your interpretation of them is based on a dumbshit caricature your opinion is not terribly useful. Criticism without understanding is worthless.
T-Bone's opinions on these threads are worth reading because these things are obviously real to him. They're personal anecdotes and those of friends and family, some of which he has shared. Those for whom police are a reflexive "other" though rarely contribute much more to these threads than some of the posters they pillory.
The only time I use that bullshit is when I'm uncomfortable saying something. The "I'm" part is the important part.
So this idiotic idea that nobody wants to talk about black people committing more violent crime per capita or black folks committing more violent crime against other black folks is simply a load of shit.
I think what he was attempting to say as far as economics goes T-bone is that crime is committed by poor people, regardless of race.
The thing to look at then, would be why is there a disproportionate amount of poor black folks?
I'm certainly no expert, but although everyone loves to think that slavery and segregation are ancient history, they in fact are not. There are definitely lingering effects of institutional racism that is still being felt and that puts black folks at a disadvantage (in general, of course).
That's of course just one reason/cause. I don't pretend to be smart enough or educated enough on such a complicated topic to be able to add all that much more.
There are also problems in black communities that are somewhat self-inflicted. I don't think anyone denies that.
What folks don't like however, and what I imagine is making PA so uncomfortable, is when those problems (racism, not accepting folks that are 'too white', drugs, single parent families, whatever else) are made out to be not only the sole reason that black folks start off at a disadvantage, but that those problems are also solely because of black people and black culture- while ignoring all of the other things that influence black culture.
I also notice that the same folks that support this idea that "black folks just need to fix themselves instead of blaming us poor white folks who weren't even alive when slavery was around" seem to ignore any attempt by black folks to address or fix the issues within the black community unless it's coming from one of the 'good niggers' (Bill Cosby and Chris Rock usually tend to be the good nigger du jour although us old white guys are trying to distance ourselves from Bill as of late.)
If anyone has been paying any sort of attention outside of the news networks- or ya know, actually getting involved in these communities, there are countless examples of black folks trying to address these problems.
Unfortunately- it's a hard row to hoe when many of the actual folks that really could help the most still seem to be under the sway of institutional racism- that shouldn't exist anymore.
Anyway.
This thread and a lot of the prior threads about Ferguson (and race in the US in general) really make me wish Hope was still with us. She always has some great insight to add- and always 100% from her heart which was filled with love and kindness to everyone.
Again, blacks commit a highly disproportionate amount of violent crime and most of it is against other blacks. Yet not one of you here, not a single damn one of you apologists can bear to mention it or start a thread about it. Cowards basically.
Humans are built to survive. It is in our DNA. We are conditioned. The cops are conditioned and the stats bear out their behavior....you blame cops for blacks behavior.
Your response however shows either a level of denial or ignorance to the core of the problem. I say over and over that the problem is poverty, drug laws, cycle of violence, lack of family structure that is perpetuated, etc......
Yet you ignore that part too.
You guys are apologists and can't face reality.
Why is it that Hispanics are passing blacks by in education, crime, college etc? Because it highlights something is wrong in the black community or do you believe that Whites just like hispanics more then blacks so whitey is targeting blacks?
Yes extinguishing black in back crime will greatly reduce racism. Because in order to do it you have to address the real issues which none of you are willing to do.
How many threads started here about Ferguson? How many started here discussing kids killed daily in Chicago or Detroit? How many threads about poverty or kids born out of wedlock or that 1/3 black men will have a criminal record? No its white cops.
You want to know why you guys don't address the real problems and want to blame racism? Because its ugly and dirty and hard for white apologists to talk about.
Are some white cops racist? Sure
Are some people racist? Sure
Are these items the underlying factor preventing black people from succeeding in life? Not hardly
1/3 black men will have a criminal record. In these communities, there is no hope, there is poverty....When you address these issues, you will solve the overall issues.
And what do I think the vast majority of white people think? I think they are tired of hearing it, don't give a shit about the color of a persons skin. They are just trying to get by like everyone else in the world. They walk on egg shells in public trying to be politically correct and talk honestly behind closed doors. And when the 1/3 number is greatly reduced the self indiced pressure will relieve itself.
But lets say I did...propose a solution.
Then the results you expect from your solution and the timing of those results.
Then tell me how the timing of results from your solutions is not slowed greatly by attitudes and stereotypes.
Without the putdowns of others you deploy when you cant write down the logic behind the polemic. Screeching that others don't get the truth only you are courageous enough to see...is not intellectual honesty...its BBGOFO instead of diligence.
Thanks
You don't believe that poverty, broken homes, drug laws, all cyclical in nature and self fulfilling are the problem, then fine. Its just us nasty white people keeping the black man down. Keep perpetuating that idea and see what progress is made. None will be made at this point because it only does two things.
First of all it isn't true so you have lost support for it and secondly it just pits blacks against white which is titillating and creates drama but serves no good.
My solution is to fix the drug laws, remove drug offenses from records after a few years, give incentive to graduate high school, work on preventing pregnancy out of wedlock, ways to actually strengthen the black community......
But now I have no Empathy....lol...
Hey screw it, lets just blame racist cops....
Are these numbers a result of white racism? Racist cops?
Like I said earlier, demographics are changing. in 100 years we will mostly all be some shade of brown.
but I don't interact with those who believe they have magical powers to know what others are thinking.
Its yours to figure out that a request the rigor required to be effective about ones beliefs comes up empty.
take care
First off, right here is your major problem:
Here the mental box you've put yourself in, and it's exactly what my post was about.
You're not uncomfortable talking about the problems yet you only do so behind closed doors? That makes perfect sense.
And you're doing the exact thing that I was talking about- acting as if it's all the fault of the black folks themselves and that it's all just a matter of them waking up and realizing that they need to stop acting like they're poor and black.
Again, blacks commit a highly disproportionate amount of violent crime and most of it is against other blacks. Yet not one of you here, not a single damn one of you apologists can bear to mention it or start a thread about it. Cowards basically.
Humans are built to survive. It is in our DNA. We are conditioned. The cops are conditioned and the stats bear out their behavior....you blame cops for blacks behavior.
Your response however shows either a level of denial or ignorance to the core of the problem. I say over and over that the problem is poverty, drug laws, cycle of violence, lack of family structure that is perpetuated, etc......
Yet you ignore that part too.
You guys are apologists and can't face reality.
Why is it that Hispanics are passing blacks by in education, crime, college etc? Because it highlights something is wrong in the black community or do you believe that Whites just like hispanics more then blacks so whitey is targeting blacks?
Yes extinguishing black in back crime will greatly reduce racism. Because in order to do it you have to address the real issues which none of you are willing to do.
How many threads started here about Ferguson? How many started here discussing kids killed daily in Chicago or Detroit? How many threads about poverty or kids born out of wedlock or that 1/3 black men will have a criminal record? No its white cops.
You want to know why you guys don't address the real problems and want to blame racism? Because its ugly and dirty and hard for white apologists to talk about.
Are some white cops racist? Sure
Are some people racist? Sure
Are these items the underlying factor preventing black people from succeeding in life? Not hardly
Oh my god. This is just a horrible, awful, atrocious post. It's completely out of touch with reality. That last note you ended on is the kicker - just absolutely unbelievable. The marginalization of racism just shows that it's something you've absolutely never, ever, had to deal with once in your life.
I started listing off all the ways you are wrong, but it's pointless. You're pretty much just as bad as Spock.
It also seems lost on you that it isn't only black minorities that have a general mistrust of the police. I come from a very well educated family of Indian immigrants. My Dad's one of the most respected physicians in his field in New Jersey. He does not think the police are out to help us when we interact with them in public. Why is that?
You guys are funny....in denial but funny
This is common sense shit.
on some subjects it is impossible to be "right" about. Too many factors. Too wide an interplay between them or the subject simply defies what humans can "know" for sure. And that frailty we humans have is tough for folks who fall into a "not always right but never in doubt" trap
And yes ...just a small but very real example of bias is the frustrations non white/non American schooled physicians face despite wonderful adherence to the Hippocratic Oath and great educational backgrounds.