| The Justice Department reports that its investigation into law enforcement in Ferguson, Mo., found that the police and courts meted out illegal and unduly harsh treatment, particularly to black people. One of the reports released Wednesday, "Investigation of the Ferguson Police Department," says the mistreatment is due to discrimination, and a primary focus on maximizing city revenue through citations, not to keeping the peace. |
| Ferguson's Municipal Court, which is actually run by the chief of police, is part of the city's revenue-raising machinery, the report found, with court officials routinely levying excessive fines and fees, and violating people's rights. |
| Black people in Ferguson regularly report racial epithets being used against them by police officers, but a search of city e-mail accounts by the Justice Department also showed many racist remarks casually traded by police supervisors and court officials. |
| The Justice Department also found that officers regularly exceed their authority and mistreat people. |
If you think this isn't status quo anywhere besides some backward part of Missouri, don't know what to tell you.
The Ferguson Police Department: The Justice Department Report, Annotated - (
New Window )
You guys are funny....in denial but funny
I'm not in denial of anything. You're missing the absurdly obvious point that police behavior isn't just some sort of symptom of the "problem", hell it isn't even something that merely perpetuates the "problem", but rather is a primary mechanism of the entire "cycle" you describe.
Your "behind closed doors walking on eggshells" diatribe is some bizarre white-people-are-the-victims victim mentality that is unfortunately all too common.
There is more then enough data out there to look at why some make it and some don't. Differentiating factors. Nah, lets throw up our hands and say "we just can't be sure"
more excuses......
but to top it, here you have it
LOL, its the cops fault blacks commit crime.
There you have it people
And again, what da hell does black on black crime have to do with why racism exists? You have yet to answer (and therefore 'discuss') this one simple question. I'm not even trying to dispute this claim because I wouldn't be surprised if it's correct. But how it relates to a white person hating black people I just don't get. Please at least try to give me an explanation... if you can.
Who's blaming cops for 'black behavior'? No, what I think most are blaming SOME cops for is a blantant racist attitude towards not just black people but any minority. The part where you come in is YOU are blaming that attitude on black people themselves for whatever strange reason.
Actually, my response shows neither of those. Actually... yes it does... I'm in denial with regards to your silly notion that racism exists because of black on black crime. That's just such a silly idea that I can't believe a grown man can come to that conclusion. I'm not ignorant to the 'core of the problem' at all... I just don't agree one bit that your silly idea of what the 'core problem' is (black on black crime).
But what you miss is that those factors are only PART of the problem... not the only causes of the problem. Poverty being one of the only 'causes' is debunked when you take into account the FACT that it not all black people are poor. A well-off black man (you seem to have a problem believing that we exist) is nearly just as likely to get harassed as a broke one. 'Drug laws' and 'cycle of violence' are so ambiguous that's it's not worth mentioning and 'lack of family' structure as being a 'cause' for racism is just as silly as saying police brutality happens because of black on black crime.
Apologists for who exactly? And while you're at it, what exactly is a 'white apologist'? You've lumped me in with that group several times now and I don't see myself as an 'apologist' of any kind... and I damn sure ain't white. So are you saying that I'm apologizing for white people? You really seem to not know what you're talking about in most of your post but in particular when you throw that term around in them.
Ahhh... there's that same stupid stat that you seem to enjoy throwing around for whatever reason. So hispanics alledgely (and I have yet to see that stat anywhere else but here, from you, by the way... I did a Google search and I couldn't find one article that states that) 'passing' blacks means there's something wrong in the black community? Why? If what you say is true, why can't they be 'passing' us simply because more of them are working harder and making the most of their opportunities? Oh that's right... because ALL of black people's problem are because of black people issues. Got it. And what makes you think that Hispanics need for white people to 'like' them in order for them to succeed? In your mind it appears that you think that minorities need white people to 'like' them in order for them to succeed. Says a lot about you and your thought process and explains a lot of your silly stances as well.
How? Please try to answer this time.
These threads appear because they discuss events that have happened over the past several months. If you're so interested in discussing threads about '...poverty or kids born out of wedlock or that 1/3 black men will have a criminal record?' and how it's the main cause of racism in this country, feel free to start one of your own and I'll be glad to discuss it with you. You seem to be so happy... giddy even... to continuously throw in our faces how black people are solely responsible for fucking up their own lives I'm surprised you haven't started one by now.
Again, please elaborate what you mean by the term 'white apologists' because I just don't understand what you mean by it. Thanks!
Are some people racist? Sure
Are these items the underlying factor preventing black people from succeeding in life? Not hardly
Who, at any point in this thread, stated that racism is the ONLY underlying factor for why black people aren't succeeding in life (which is funny to even type because I'm black and feel like I'm succeeding in life just fine)? You see... that's an argument YOU created so that you can state that as a fact and argue against it.
This last post wasn't directed at me but I'd like to respond to it anyway:
You don't want to 'see a solution'. You want black people to accept COMPLETE and TOTAL blame for the situations some black people find themselves in. You want black people to think 'So wait... I'm black and you mean to tell me that if I don't rob that black man over there... racism will no longer exist?'. Which is such a silly notion I don't see how anyone with any sense can come up with it.
Using your logic, you'd be the type to blame a woman for getting raped because she wore a short skirt. But keep on keepin on thinking that YOUR solution to racism is the only and correct one.
Solutions require rigor
Rigor requires completeness. what you point out are some factors openly discussed academically and in debate on social policy in the early 60's...the 1860's much less the early 1960's in several books and directives by many (hence BBGOFO on your part) nor are those factors all the factors. And jumping up and down as if you have any more superior insights ( they aint insights if they are well documented as more than 60 years old) and have a platform to call others inferior renders you a handicap to take on the steps that matter...for convincing others of your solutions requires patience and humility.
And like every human change effort ever undertaken....you will find the effectiveness and extent and timing of results from whatever solution you propose to be subject to changing hearts over very long periods of time.
This is common sense shit.
There isn't even anything inherently wrong in any of this post. Of course these are all problems. But you act as if the police are not part of this problem.
You view this as "police are humans, they're reacting to the stats" while ignoring that they are in fact, to a larger extent than you would like to admit, responsible for the stats. Honestly though, there is greater culpability with the entire legal system, and police are just one subsect of this (you referenced drug laws yourself, and there's been many studies on disproportionate sentencing for whites vs blacks).
The truth is not either one of these two extremes (cops are racist vs cops are just reacting to statistics) - the truth is in the middle, but the problem is that both of the "extremes" perpetuate the other into an positive feedback loop, which by extension perpetuates all the other factors you listed.
Growing up in an area where everyone is poor, police are the enemy, and the most successful people make their money in crime, is only going to leave an impression with the kids in the area. The thing is, you're essentially saying "this is all black peoples fault, look at the hispanics!" - that's not true at all. At the same time, it isn't wise to say that it's all white people or all the existing institutions. Like many things, the truth is somewhere in the middle - but that is not a position you are taking.
And bringing up "black on black crime" in this context is nothing more than FNC style deflection. T-Bone correctly called that argument ridiculous.
Finally, just because whatever media outlets you follow don't report on people stepping up to stop violence in their own communities, doesn't mean it does't happen. But again, that's irrelevant (or at best, tangently related, IF even that) to black American-police interactions.
But you know what the bottom line is? It's fucking bullshit to single people out and make them feel like a criminal because of how they look, it's bullshit that a police department acts and is encouraged to act more as a revenue generator than an actual police force, and its fucking bullshit when police purposely target people of one race more than people of another. And worst of all, it's bullshit when police have no respect for a population - and while this can occur to people of all races, it definitely occurs to minorities more, and it definitely occurs to blacks the most.
People can try and justify it all they want (and there's a ton of justification from extremely intelligent posters earlier in this thread) but the bottom line is that no, everything is not fine, the results of this report are not acceptable, the status quo is not acceptable, and just because it does't affect YOU (rhetorical "you", and assuming you are white) doesn't mean nothing should be done about it.
Lastly, Schnitzie was spot on about the results of the grand jury re: Wilson. Whatever you believe happened (Don't even fucking start with me PA Giants fan), the grand jury did not come out and say "Hey, Wilson was right", no matter how much it may seem that way in layman's terms.
Develop a solution for just those factors
convince others
then either the solution is incomplete or you are
There is plenty of data out there to support my thoughts here. I am the only one supplying any actual statistics.
another example of how closed loop non learning believers proceed certain of the accuracy and relevance of their own magical powers to attribute motive and limits to others while avoiding the same human traps in their own thinking.
rarely right, hardly effective but never in doubt
on some subjects it is impossible to be "right" about. Too many factors. Too wide an interplay between them or the subject simply defies what humans can "know" for sure. And that frailty we humans have is tough for folks who fall into a "not always right but never in doubt" trap
And yes ...just a small but very real example of bias is the frustrations non white/non American schooled physicians face despite wonderful adherence to the Hippocratic Oath and great educational backgrounds.
Great post as always Bill2. I completely agree - it's always strange (though not unexpected) to see people just assume that they can boil things down to black and white, right and wrong, up and down - all while simultaneously: 1) not having any nuance or understanding that real life is complex and never so binary and 2) being dogmatic in their belief that their side is "right".
The parallel that always pops into my mind comes from when I was an econ undergrad. We'd be in one of the early college classes, like intermediate micro or macro, or econometrics, when you're first moving past the SUPER basic models and into slightly more complex ones, and taught how economic models are applied in the real world on a basic level. But in the back of my mind, I was always like "real life is so fucking complicated, and there's so many different things interchanging and so many different variables, how can we actually model something that even comes kind of close?" It's the same idea I have with discussions like these. Everything affects everything else and it's tough to know how much, and that should always be the subtext behind these discussions or the context/frame which they take place in.
If blacks didn't commit such a large percentage of violent crime and if 1/3 black men didn't commit crime racism would go down. Racism is built out of fear and fearing a race that commits a highly disproportionate amount of violent crime is self preservation. Again one third of black men have criminal records...one out of three
So blacks commit black on black crime because of white cops? White cops make blacks turn to drugs? White cops make black kids kill black kids? White cops are responsible for kids having kids?
And T-bone if you are successful are you saying that white racist cops didn't bring you down?
The truth is that the issues at hand that cause these problems are not black problems, they are ultimately economic and family structure problems. And whether you are white black or brown......However white racist cops is not part of any of this...
What % of the issues in black neighborhoods and communities are caused by white racist cops....
I dare you to answer
but to top it, here you have it
Quote:
police behavior isn't just some sort of symptom of the "problem", hell it isn't even something that merely perpetuates the "problem", but rather is a primary mechanism of the entire "cycle" you describe.
LOL, its the cops fault blacks commit crime.
There you have it people
Dude, are you dense? I was paraphrasing whatever you said about "white people behind closed doors". You're the one that said that.
Anyway, I didn't say it's the cops faults blacks commit crime. But let's not act like police aren't part of the problem - they are, and to a large extent.
BTW, didn't you ever stop to think that racial profiling and institutional racism in law enforcement means more blacks will get arrested, which directly impacts the stats you are clinging to?
I'm not saying it's SOLELY responsible, but you're contending that police are 100% absolved. Get the fuck outta here with that fairy tale bullshit.
accurately measured with a micrometer but missed by a mile
Do they play any part as even perceived factors by the inhabitants?
do they play a part or none?
Since you want black people to change....then any obstacles...real or perceived....are actually obstacles to the difficulty of personal change.
you seem to want change but you seem to want it without any acknowledgement of all the factors that go into a person actually making a change.
the perceived obstacles to personal change are more relevant than the truth of the causes
do they play a part or none?
Very very small part and much of it is due to the overall crime situation in these areas not cops born as racists
I don't want black people to change per say. We are all the same. I want the circumstances around them to change. Like I said, poverty, crime, drug laws, opportunity
Thats nonsense. I am the only person actually talking about the factors required for change. White racist cops is not a blip to the overall problem here is my point
Please point them out so that we can discuss them. Thanks in advance.
Ooooh... I get it... it's the old 'fear of the black man' stance you're taking! So... how does that translate to back to slavery times? Pretty sure there wasn't any fear of black people back then... and I'm pretty sure racism existed back then... and I doubt there was too much black on black crime to perpetuate the racism that black people have brought on themselves. So please... when you get the chance... explain how your above theory relates to when slavery existed. What was the cause of racism back then? Again, thanks in advance.
No one said none of these above statements. Please point out where someone did. Thanks in advance.
No.. I'm not saying that at all. What have I said that would lead you to that conclusion? Thanks in advance.
What 'issues at hand'? I'd like for you to be specific because you're kind of all over the place. And again, no one said that 'white racist cops' are responsible for keeping black people down. What HAS been said is that in some ways, they've played a PART. How big a part is certainly debatable... but a part nevertheless. Your refusal to accept that is a major reason why you're having issues having a 'discussion' about that this.
What % of the issues in black neighborhoods and communities are caused by white racist cops....
I dare you to answer
LOL! You 'dare' us to answer? You are so full of yourself...
Anyway... I have no problem admitting that I can't answer that question. I don't think anyone can and I believe that's what Bill2 is trying to tell you (but you refuse to listen). To try and put a percentage on that is useless because not all black neighborhoods are the same (shocking I know!). I'd be willing to bet there are some communities where white racist cops aren't a problem for black people at all... meanwhile, there are some where it's a major issue (see Ferguson).
Not sure why you are dead set on putting all of us in one big group and saying we ALL are having the same issues. It just speaks to your closed-minded thinking and it's pretty sad actually.
Only with masturbation, others don't usually have to witness it, and it usually only happens once or twice a day.
T-Bone, valiant tries, but you can have an effective conversation with someone who believes he is all-knowing and stops paying attention the second he backs away from the keyboard.
Even with my comments here, PA will insist this is all about my distortions and lack of his superior knowledge and analytical skills. He may even bring up how much money he makes (which isn't all that impressive, btw.)
And what about those times when there police brutality involved but there was no crime being committed?
So tell me what % of black crime and issues are attributable to racist police. Give a ball park number...what are you afraid of?
If police were not racist how much do you think the violent crime rate would go down?
Why do 1 out of 3 black men have criminal records?
There are what? tens of thousands of police interactions per day? Everyone has a video camera in their pocket nowadays. How often are these events of police doing this? once a month or two?
So again I dare you and bill and manh and others
What % of the issues in black neighborhoods and communities are caused by white racist cops....
I dare you to answer
Or just continue to attack me...
I dare you to answer the question below...in your opinion
What % of the issues in black neighborhoods and communities are caused by white racist cops....
I dare you to answer
Are White racist cops the reason black kids are killing black kids?
Are white racist cops the reason black men have a 33% chance of having a criminal record?
Are white racist cops for babies having babies or drug use?
If it such a problem, surely the % must be high since you are all so focused on it. So lets hear it.
now....you supply the answer. I dare you.
Will you now switch the "debate" or answer since you know and we don't?
May flounder plopping around on the deck
How come this whole thread is predicated on racist cops being the problem yet no one can give their opinion as to the % of the issues discussed here are actually attributable to white racist cops?
Is racism any part of the problem? Any?
is fear any part of the problem?
Is unsupported by the facts fear any part of the problem?
Is reducing ingrained unearned levels of fear any part of the solution?
or because I don't believe that racist cops are much of an influence on these issues?
Someone was looking for a white apologist? Enter Randy
A reasonable expectation of fair and helpful treatment by the police is a right all people should have, and its direct impact on the number of crimes that occur in a given neighborhood isn't what this conversation is about, if you were only paying attention.
As discussed in the article, a pretty large proportion of middle class to upper middle class blacks have had one or more bad experiences with their local police, and in many cases have come to avoid their assistance rather than seek it. Is that a satisfactory outcome? This, of course can easily be extrapolated to poorer but also honest and honorable blacks, but the point is useful either way.
And, of course, there are a fair number of rogue police departments around the country, which is often about racism that extends beyond blacks. It's true in Cleveland, Albuquerque, now Ferguson, and no doubt many others that haven't been thoroughly analyzed. If your response is that bad policing doesn't cause black crime, then you have no idea what the subject is, let alone the answer.
I'ma gonna sing it to my friends
I've got a song, I ain't got no melody
I' ma gonna sing it to my friends
Will it go round in circles
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky
Will it go round in circles
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky
very insecure people ascribe thinking to others they have no basis for knowing....its called magical thinking. its a form of insanity.
There is a PA Giants Fan who used to engage in exactly this way.
I was slow to the pattern. I should have had that second cup of coffee.
Hope you are well
No, you're really not. You THINK you are. But you're really not and it's own arrogance that will not allow you to see that.
First off, I'm not 'afraid' of anything. Secondly, I'd guess, and this is just a guess, that the percentage is very small that black crimes and issues are attributable to racist police. But then again, I never said they... no matter how many times you want to attribute that quote to me or anyone else on this thread. That's some bullshit YOU came up with. When you realize that... you may actually be able to have a discussion with the rest of us.
Honestly, not much... if at all. But then again, I never said there was a correlation between the two. Again, that's some bullshit your brought up.
There are several factors... most of which you've told us about time and time again. Not sure why you keep throwing that statistic out over and over again though when, again, it has nothing to do with racist cops and police brutality.
To your other post directed at me:
It happens, most likely, pretty much every day I'd bet. Most times, it's not caught on camera or even if it is, it's not reported. Just because YOU refuse to see it (which doesn't surprise me one bit) doesn't mean it's not there.
Not to mention, it's pretty sad that you think it happening only once or twice a month (when it doesn't) is no big deal. I, and I think most of us sane, rational folks would tend to think that even if it happens once a month or two, that would be once a month or two too often. But hey, since (in your world) we bring it on ourselves, I guess it's ok that some of us get smacked around once a month (or two)!
Not much of the problem. Most violent crime is black against black. You can argue that drug laws unfairly target blacks and I would agree with that. I have noted that drug laws are a part of the problem. Are random white racist cops a big part of the problem? No
is fear any part of the problem? Fear by who? Fear of whites of blacks? Definitely. Doesn't help that 1/3 black men have a criminal record. If you went to a place and knew that 1/3 was a criminal would you have the same level of trust of the people there as you would in a place where there was minimal crime? Answer the question please
Is unsupported by the facts fear any part of the problem?
Is reducing ingrained unearned levels of fear any part of the solution? Crime rates have to support or it doesn't matter. Look at the NY stats I provided earlier. If 48/50 muggings were performed by blacks and hispanics, no amount of teaching or learning can replace what is actually occurring.
You see PA... if you'd bothered to read the article (since you're so respectful of others opinions) you'd have read that the incident within the article is being told by a black person who is very successful in his field. So it's not just a case of poverty... as I have said earlier.
By the way, PA, Bill2 dared you to answer some of your own questions... I have yet to see you give a % yourself (except to say it's 'minimal').
C'mon big man... what are you afraid of?
Glad to hear, now lets start the 20th thread about these issues but not one about the actual issues in the black community. lol
Let me ask another question:
How much of what is perceived as White cop racism is due to cops having to spend the majority of their time dealing with black on black crime?
There is a PA Giants Fan who used to engage in exactly this way.
You really are remarkably obtuse. And when you are the only one who sees things a given way among a set of bright to very bright people, that should give you a clue.
What % of the issues in black neighborhoods and communities are caused by white racist cops....
I dare you to answer
Holy shit. Nobody can give an accurate % of that. And neither can you. And stop simplifying it into "racist white cops". Jesus fucking christ, you try and reduce everything into binaries.
The fact that the legal and police system is stacked against a specific race or group of people has a profound affect on how the statistics you giddily recite are what they are.
Glad to hear, now lets start the 20th thread about these issues but not one about the actual issues in the black community. lol
Let me ask another question:
How much of what is perceived as White cop racism is due to cops having to spend the majority of their time dealing with black on black crime?
What you seem to not understand is this thread was started talking about police brutality against minorities. YOU introduced the 'black communities' aspect into this discussion and am having everyone pretty much looking around at each other and asking, 'What da hell is he talking about?'.
Are White racist cops the reason black kids are killing black kids?
Are white racist cops the reason black men have a 33% chance of having a criminal record?
Are white racist cops for babies having babies or drug use?
If it such a problem, surely the % must be high since you are all so focused on it. So lets hear it.
1) Is a legal and police system stacked against black people responsible for black people looking at the system as an enemy, and falling into a life of crime? To an extent.
2) Does a system stacked against black people result in black people having a higher % chance of having a criminal record? DUH. OBVIOUSLY IT DOES (to an extent).
3) Does a system stacked against black people result in black people having kids too early or having kids while abusing drugs? To an extent - the things you listed are symptomatic of people trapped in generations of poverty. You don't think a legal system stacked against a group of people would have a sharp economic impact on the said group? It obviously does.
And this is what my point is - you can't just extract certain parts of the equation. Everything is interconnected. And stop boiling it down to "racist white cops". First of all, a racist cop of ANY nationality is just as much of a problem as a "white racist cop".
And it's NOT just cops, it's the legal system as a whole (though yes, cops are a big part of the legal system as a whole).