| The Justice Department reports that its investigation into law enforcement in Ferguson, Mo., found that the police and courts meted out illegal and unduly harsh treatment, particularly to black people. One of the reports released Wednesday, "Investigation of the Ferguson Police Department," says the mistreatment is due to discrimination, and a primary focus on maximizing city revenue through citations, not to keeping the peace. |
| Ferguson's Municipal Court, which is actually run by the chief of police, is part of the city's revenue-raising machinery, the report found, with court officials routinely levying excessive fines and fees, and violating people's rights. |
| Black people in Ferguson regularly report racial epithets being used against them by police officers, but a search of city e-mail accounts by the Justice Department also showed many racist remarks casually traded by police supervisors and court officials. |
| The Justice Department also found that officers regularly exceed their authority and mistreat people. |
If you think this isn't status quo anywhere besides some backward part of Missouri, don't know what to tell you.
The Ferguson Police Department: The Justice Department Report, Annotated - (
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Actually, I did read that. It came across as a typical 'Hey, I have black friends!' proclamation that some white people who have subtle or overt racist thoughts tend to say to be honest with you. Glad to hear you've heard 'stories'. How about you share one or two of them with us? I'd like to hear what they went through.
Again how many interactions do white cops have in the black community, and how many are blacks a victim of brutality?
See, you can't address how cops are interacting with blacks without understanding that white cops spend an incredibly disproportionate amount of time in black neighborhoods. Then blame the cops for being jaded over time but never address the reason all this crime exists in the first place.....
The crime is the issue, the rest are symptoms or more like diseases.
Not much of the problem. Most violent crime is black against black. You can argue that drug laws unfairly target blacks and I would agree with that. I have noted that drug laws are a part of the problem. Are random white racist cops a big part of the problem? No
is fear any part of the problem? Fear by who? Fear of whites of blacks? Definitely. Doesn't help that 1/3 black men have a criminal record. If you went to a place and knew that 1/3 was a criminal would you have the same level of trust of the people there as you would in a place where there was minimal crime? Answer the question please
Is unsupported by the facts fear any part of the problem?
Is reducing ingrained unearned levels of fear any part of the solution? Crime rates have to support or it doesn't matter. Look at the NY stats I provided earlier. If 48/50 muggings were performed by blacks and hispanics, no amount of teaching or learning can replace what is actually occurring.
Spoken like someone who has never experienced any form of racism.
The fact that you think institutional bias, particularly those in the police department, is not part of the problem is laughable and idiotic.
And on another note, contending that solving all "black" issues would solve all the problems you have posited also makes no sense. I don't think the Indian community has many of the problems you listed. So how come people in the Indian community are still afraid of the police?
This thread is NOT about that. This thread is about the findings of a report of a police department of interest, and HOW they treat blacks.
You're trying to deflect the issue by interjecting this bullshit. Stop steering the conversation to that.
How about this: whether or not "racist white cops" are "part of the problem"...
...should racist white cops EXIST, and should excuses be made for them? (which you've already done - "its human nature guys! blacks commit more crime! it's their own fault cops are racist! duh!")
All the other garbage you're bringing up is just noise. The point is that the findings of this report should NOT be tolerated and should NEVER occur.
Doubtful...because I think most good, rational white men who have seen what's been going on in this country (particularly over the past several months), and would care to impart some of that wisdom onto a potential unsuspecting black kid, see what's going on and acknowledge that there are some bad people out there... of all races, creeds, religions and even occupations and just because a guy has on a uniform and a shield doesn't necessarily mean that he's there to 'Protect and Serve'. Some, if not most, are... but there is definitely more than a few who aren't.
Again how many interactions do white cops have in the black community, and how many are blacks a victim of brutality?
See, you can't address how cops are interacting with blacks without understanding that white cops spend an incredibly disproportionate amount of time in black neighborhoods. Then blame the cops for being jaded over time but never address the reason all this crime exists in the first place.....
The crime is the issue, the rest are symptoms or more like diseases.
making excuses for how cops treat black people.
It's so easy to point the blame when it's something that would never affect you ever. My best friend growing up is black. I lived in East Brunswick, NJ, an affluent suburban town. The number of times he was pulled over while I was driving with him was MIND BOGGLING.
Are you going to feed me the excuse that the cops in my town were conditioned to think this way because they "dealt with" black people all the time? Because that's a pile of steaming bullshit.
See what you guys and I mean all of you miss is the following. You are unwilling to address the ultimate issues at the core here. Crime, Poverty, drugs etc....
Everything else is in reaction to these issues. If all the crime is in black neighborhoods, do you think white cops become jaded? Even black cops can become jaded against their own race...
White people shouldn't just blacks or be afraid of them based on the color of their skin. However, when most of the violent crime is committed by one race, and one out of three black men has a criminal record, there is naturally going to be trust issues.
And on the flip side to this which none of you probably even think of is that blacks become racist against whites because they think whites are racist again them especially the police...again its a cycle.
But none of this all matters until you address the actual core issues which you guys won't even begin to discuss yet has been my focus.
You guys focus on the outlier, and the symptom, and I am focused on the cause.
No... not every time. I'm just talking about YOU.
There you go again, trying to lump everyone in the same boat.
I have compassion, and you have excuses.
Compassion is leading with the other persons heart in mind.
His.
He seems to do that a lot.
Note the only % or amount of blame on Racist cops the couple of you were willing to put was small but yet you guys go on and on and on about it....yet nothing of the larger problem.....
This has been educational and what we have learned is that this problem will never get better really....at least until the items I note occur...
See what you guys and I mean all of you miss is the following. You are unwilling to address the ultimate issues at the core here. Crime, Poverty, drugs etc....
Everything else is in reaction to these issues. If all the crime is in black neighborhoods, do you think white cops become jaded? Even black cops can become jaded against their own race...
White people shouldn't just blacks or be afraid of them based on the color of their skin. However, when most of the violent crime is committed by one race, and one out of three black men has a criminal record, there is naturally going to be trust issues.
And on the flip side to this which none of you probably even think of is that blacks become racist against whites because they think whites are racist again them especially the police...again its a cycle.
But none of this all matters until you address the actual core issues which you guys won't even begin to discuss yet has been my focus.
You guys focus on the outlier, and the symptom, and I am focused on the cause.
WTF are you babbling on about?
That particular statistic is what it is. But in general, poor people commit more crime. And being arrested breaks up families, makes it impossible for people to get jobs after getting out of jail, and makes families poor. And you said it yourself, that drug laws disproportionately affect blacks. And people that grow up in crime areas, see cops as the enemy. And by seeing black people as the enemy, they fall into a life of crime. And by falling into a life of crime, they give police more of a reason to profile. And if the government is using the police department to generate revenue instead of keeping the peace, they're going to profile more and target blacks. And by targeting blacks, they create more distrust.
This isn't any justification of that particular stat, and that large rambling chain of events wasn't going anywhere specific. I'm just trying to get through your head that its ALL CONNECTED.
Having said that, if cops racially profile (which they often do), obviously black people will be arrested at a higher clip. Duh. Taking one statistic doesn't change the intrinsic nature of profiling resulting in higher arrests for blacks.
Your idea of addressing the "core issue" is basically saying "hey black people, this is all your fault, look at what you've done to yourself". Without taking into account that they are treated very differently by the police and the legal system, that they were consciously economically repressed by the government until a few years ago.
You're treating "racist white cops" (read: institutional bias against blacks) as a "symptom" and the other issues as "core". The truth is that the institutional bias is one of the main engines that drives all of the things you listed.
The way you are trying to absolve the concept of cops targeting blacks is ridiculous. You can call it a "symptom", or a "root cause", but the point is that its probably both, and no matter WHAT it is, it's WRONG.
How does a cop racially profile for violent crime in a manner to skew statistics?
I've literally posted a few times on the thread. Only about one, thinking you were film or similar, and two, that you put words in people's mouths.
Speaking for myself, you're right about one thing, the black on black crime IS the biggest problem by far. Having experience teaching in low income areas, the cops have all the respect in the world from me. Especially since many actually make amazing efforts to interact with and engage the youths in a positive manner despite knowing the risks of being that close to the chaos.
But you're absolving the bad apples and worse, you excuse them.
(see how that works?)
You're the one who chose to come on and generalize an entire race based on the small percentage of those in the race being involved with the violence.
You chose to put words in people's mouths.
You chose to make excuses for cops but not blacks affected by the same circumstances.
Own it. Or don't. Your choice.
Note the only % or amount of blame on Racist cops the couple of you were willing to put was small but yet you guys go on and on and on about it....yet nothing of the larger problem.....
This has been educational and what we have learned is that this problem will never get better really....at least until the items I note occur...
LOL! Yeah right. Because you seem to have such a firm grasp on racism that the only experience you have with it is from stories from your black friends.
Amazing that someone finally admits the truth though.
Based on these discussions, it is becoming obvious that this divide is only going to get worse.
No one would be willing to give a % of issues to black communities caused by white cop racism or abuse.
The reason we have the profiling, and the abuse is more of a math problem then anything else. If most of the violent crime is in a certain area, committed by certain looking people, it is human nature right or wrong for these things to happen. You begin to eliminate the causes, you eliminate the latter.
No one would be willing to give a % of issues to black communities caused by white cop racism or abuse.
The reason we have the profiling, and the abuse is more of a math problem then anything else. If most of the violent crime is in a certain area, committed by certain looking people, it is human nature right or wrong for these things to happen. You begin to eliminate the causes, you eliminate the latter.
biggest issue in what?!?!?!?
black on black crime is the biggest issue in cops mistreating blacks/minorities?
You speak in generalities. It's the biggest issue in WHAT? Be specific.
How does a cop racially profile for violent crime in a manner to skew statistics?
I don't know. But what I do know is that violent crime is often a symptom of poverty. Additionally, the way the legal system (including but not limited to police) treats blacks, perpetuates poverty. It also provides an ample breeding ground for an "us vs the cops" mentality through a number of ways, which has an impact on crime.
I mean, what's the alternative that you would suggest to that concept? That black people are inherently more violent?
The whole point here is that nobody, including T-bone, has disagreed that there are issues that need to be worked out in black communities. EVERY community has issues that they need to work out. However, you are using that as a reason to absolve the police of all blame with regards to the way they treat black people (and honestly minorities in general).
I'll bring it up again... my father is a 60 year old Indian physician. Why wouldn't he trust the cops? You keep saying you don't like police officers, but then constantly make excuses for the behavior of a "few bad apples".
Think about how fucked up it is that there are entire groups of people who are AFRAID of the people who are supposed to be protecting them because of the color of their skin.
Stop trying to find reasons to justify it.
Has there even been a point in this thread where you've come out and said that the findings of this report are unacceptable?
The whole point here is that nobody, including T-bone, has disagreed that there are issues that need to be worked out in black communities. EVERY community has issues that they need to work out. However, you are using that as a reason to absolve the police of all blame with regards to the way they treat black people (and honestly minorities in general).
I am saying that the amount of blame on cops is ridiculously overhyped because while it it terrible it is not cause to the issue and more of a symptom. It makes a nice scapegoat and talking point and gets people emotional but it is not the biggest issue. Like I keep saying, no one really talks about the real issue.
There is no starting point. It's a circle.
What's really fucked up is that you're trying to claim the actions and behavior of the police either:
a) aren't on this circle, or
b) are justified.
Cops that stop-and-frisk a 16 year old kid who is minding his own business will have a profound affect on how he views the police. Kids or teens who see their father or brother get roughed up by the police for a minor infraction will have a profound impact on them. And this type of impact only perpetuates this cycle.
the difference between the legal/law enforcement part of this cycle and other parts of the cycle is that we EXPECT better from our government/law enforcement/legal system/people of authority. They have a moral obligation to society.
You know how you sound? You basically make it sound like "fuck those animals, its their fault. If the blacks weren't such criminals, they wouldn't be in this mess".
That is how you sound. If you think this is the truth, then we all know the content of your character, and I'd have no problem telling you that I'd never associate with anyone of your ilk (lol ilk).
If that's not what you mean, then please, explain what you mean. Because that is pretty much what it sounds like.
I am saying that the amount of blame on cops is ridiculously overhyped because while it it terrible it is not cause to the issue and more of a symptom. It makes a nice scapegoat and talking point and gets people emotional but it is not the biggest issue. Like I keep saying, no one really talks about the real issue.
If this is your thesis, it's patently absurd. If anything, it's the BIGGEST driver of all of this.
If you don't think the way police treat blacks is a huge part of the equation, you're in complete and total denial.
You also say this from an ivory tower. It must be easy to make that diagnosis as someone who has never once had to experience anything close to what many minorities deal with on a daily basis.
Based on these discussions, it is becoming obvious that this divide is only going to get worse.
Honestly... it's based on everything that you've posted on this thread. You just seem to be very ignorant when it comes to not only the problems within the black community but how the relationship with law enforcement and the black community, as a whole, works. You actually come across as one of the more clueless posters I've ever seen on here in my 15+ years of coming to this site... and that's sayin something.
Really the biggest driver?
And this
Which again shows the issue which is why this issue will never get resolved. You misidentify the cause....
They only become so when you are trying to place the blame for the issues on white racist cops,.
They only become so when you are trying to place the blame for the issues on white racist cops,.
If you have a problem with this
"My idea that the biggest issues are black on black crime, drug laws, poverty, etc.....are hardly controversial"
Then you have no clue
They only become so when you are trying to place the blame for the issues on white racist cops,.
I'm sure they do... to your face. LOL!
If you have a problem with this
"My idea that the biggest issues are black on black crime, drug laws, poverty, etc.....are hardly controversial"
Then you have no clue
Again, stupid point on your part.
You are using crime, drugs, poverty as your demonstration of how black people are bad and therefore of COURSE white cops will be racist!!!!
Take your act out of here. Almost nobody here agrees with you which should tell you something but the fact that it doesn't is telling (to the rest of us)
I never said that the black community doesn't think that those factors you listed aren't big because we all already know they are.
What I did say... and continue to say... is that they have little to no correlation to police brutality and racism. To me, THAT notion is silly.
You have an amazing ability to twist a person's words around you know that? You've continuously done that throughout this thread and have been called on it several times and yet you keep doing that.
Ronald J Brockmeyer, whose court allegedly jailed impoverished defendants unable to pay fines of a few hundred dollars, has a string of outstanding debts to the US government dating back to 2007, according to tax filings obtained by the Guardian from authorities in Missouri.
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Quote:
The judge in Ferguson, Missouri, who is accused of fixing traffic tickets for himself and colleagues while inflicting a punishing regime of fines and fees on the city’s residents, also owes more than $170,000 in unpaid taxes.
Ronald J Brockmeyer, whose court allegedly jailed impoverished defendants unable to pay fines of a few hundred dollars, has a string of outstanding debts to the US government dating back to 2007, according to tax filings obtained by the Guardian from authorities in Missouri.
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Yeah he is a fucking scumbag who should have been disbarred years ago
These investigators are obviously morons. Don't they know that if we'd just stop black on black crime these white city officials wouldn't be condoning a 'striking lack of personal responsibility among themselves and their friends'?!
Don't sweat it PA. I'm sure one day all these fools will wake up and realize that it's all our (black people's) fault.
Pretty damned simple.
Now if they'd only just do it.