| The Justice Department reports that its investigation into law enforcement in Ferguson, Mo., found that the police and courts meted out illegal and unduly harsh treatment, particularly to black people. One of the reports released Wednesday, "Investigation of the Ferguson Police Department," says the mistreatment is due to discrimination, and a primary focus on maximizing city revenue through citations, not to keeping the peace. |
| Ferguson's Municipal Court, which is actually run by the chief of police, is part of the city's revenue-raising machinery, the report found, with court officials routinely levying excessive fines and fees, and violating people's rights. |
| Black people in Ferguson regularly report racial epithets being used against them by police officers, but a search of city e-mail accounts by the Justice Department also showed many racist remarks casually traded by police supervisors and court officials. |
| The Justice Department also found that officers regularly exceed their authority and mistreat people. |
If you think this isn't status quo anywhere besides some backward part of Missouri, don't know what to tell you.
The Ferguson Police Department: The Justice Department Report, Annotated - (
New Window )
Yup.
We can't all be so wonderfully above the fray like yourself, sweetie.
You just can't help yourself can you?
Police officers Capt. Rick Henke and Sgt. William Mudd resigned Thursday over the emails discovered during the U.S. Department of Justice investigation of racial prejudice in the city's police and judicial system, city spokesman Jeff Small said on Friday, citing the city attorney.
The city's top court clerk, Mary Ann Twitty, was fired earlier this week in connection with the emails, Small said.
Several employees forwarded the emails but until now none had been disciplined, the report said.
continued ... - ( New Window )
I'm going out on a non-PC limb and blame the victim. He asked for it.
Quote:
more than the opportunity to gang up on someone who is clearly wrong and tell them they clearly wrong over and over again. It's like a virtual curb stomping.
T-Bone is the loathsome leader of the bullies. I am glad BBI has a conscience that we can look up to who tells it like it is.
Dammit... they're on to me.
I do know that the tactics used to discuss are infuriating (as you know) and I know for sure compassion and your starting point are incompatible.
Here is why:
Black on black crime, economics, unemployment, family structure is never a cause and always a symptom.
Like native Americans, this is a two hundred and fifty year old problem. That's seven to ten generations still in PTSD trauma from forceable violence to family, self esteem, social coherence and religion and comfort and dignity.
that alone should stop any of us from claiming certainty.
Narrowing the problem to the problem of a segment is the first flaw. They are Americans. Not blacks. Americans. Its an American problem. and for 250 years it has been the American stain. the American Original Sin. Anytime a segment of a society is perpetually unable to move and enjoy priveledge at the same rate of other segments...you have a society that pays a huge price in lost vision, false claims, myopic civic society, myopic citizens, expensive controls, misguided social policies and the inability to sustain the driving force of its national myth ....this great noble experiment and last hope of mankind...a nation of the people, by the people and for the people.
for 250 years this is the problem that cost the most lives, money, time, disappointment and misguided shortsightedness.
these words are 150 years old:
"In giving freedom, we assure freedom to the free - honorable alike in what we give, and what we preserve. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth. The way is plain, peaceful, generous, just - a way which, if followed, the world will forever applaud, and God must forever bless."
except we did not yet get the job done for far too many...yet.
any time a problem is elusive, systemic and all of us pay and all of us partially succeed and partially fail....its an American problem.
"they" are not blacks with black problems. they are Americans with an American problem...America has not solved.
that's the problem...all the rest are symptoms and derivatives. we failed so far.
"A house divided against itself cannot stand" is not a trite phrase...its a 5000 year old truth
all nations who failed to assimilate their segments eventually spent to much energy/cost instead of the same resources spent on being externally competitive.
"Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and can not long retain it."
Lastly...in thinking through the issue I learned two things:
If we don't start with the right and comprehensive understanding and problem definition our conclusions as to what is wrong will fall short and our expectations of the time and effort to solve it will fall short.
secondly...sorry...I realized why you remind me of Film Giant. Not just because of the thread tactics to other posters...but because he also had significant problems understanding America
First, yeah Ferguson is not the only municipality/city that essentially uses the police as a source to balance the budget. For anyone here who lives in northern NJ, just drive at 55 MPH on the Palisades Parkway and see what will happen to you. Yes, 5MPH over and you will find yourself in a lone line of people willing to write a check for $350 so your horrible speeding offense is not reported to the state. This however, is no different than how the federal government uses the IRS as it's tool to do the same. Railroading many people who do not deserve it. It is all bad.
Second, it is unfortunate that the racism and poor treatment that occurs in Ferguson (by many in law enforcement there) had to come to a head over an incident where in THIS particular instance, the cop was apparently not at fault. I am sure there were countless incidents in Ferguson that were slam dunk cases of racism and it is too bad that they (whoever they are. Media, Sharpton, Holder, etc) chose THIS particular shooting/death to use as "the" incident when it sounds like there must have been others that were irrefutable.
Sonic Youth made a good point about the "circle". At what point does the circle start? IMO, BOTH SIDES have to change. The cops have to change but also the minorities also have to somehow change their views of the cops simultaneously. If only one side changes for the better, it will not work.
Random question that I don't have the answer to. Are the black cops who work in places like Ferguson also racist against blacks? Thinking they might be but when they do something it is not viewed as being racist or profiling since they are also black.
Another question... why don't more minorities go to the police academy? I hear (and agree with) statements made that there should be more minority cops in the minority neighborhoods.
Wish more would listen to him.
They were caused by something but if we fix the symptoms, it seems we fix the problem. I think it would work to focus on the symptoms. I am probably being dumb but there is something circular here I cannot quite state but feel.
The Dispatch reports that Capt. Rick Henke and Sgt. William Mudd resigned on Thursday; Court Clerk Mary Ann Twitty was fired on Wednesday.
This is enough to get ANY American's blood to boil.
The police force viewing citizens as a revenue source, instead of people to protect and serve? (with the directive coming from city government)?
Routinely pulling people over without probably cause, disregarding constitutional rights, and taking mental illness as a sign of belligerence?
Demanding compliance when lacking legal authority?
Using the amount of revenue being produced by police as the primary means of their performance review?
Objective statistics that show the police force purposely targets black?
Cops competing to see who can write the most violations and citations in one single stop?
Government acting as sketchy as a payday loan company?
Court records show that she twice attempted to make partial payments of $25 and $50, but the court returned those payments, refusing to accept anything less than payment in full ... As of December 2014, over seven years later, despite initially owing a $151 fine and having already paid $550, she still owed $541.
LOOK AT THIS STORY FROM THE REPORT:
[code]In one case, the police confronted a black man sitting in his car at a park, accused him of being a pedophile, ordered him out of his car for a "pat-down," and when he would not consent to a search of his car, arrested him.
One charge, Making a False Declaration, was for initially providing the short form of his first name (e.g., “Mike” instead of “Michael”), and an address which, although legitimate, was different from the one on his driver’s license. Another charge was for not wearing a seat belt, even though he was seated in a parked car. The officer also charged the man both with having an expired operator’s license, and with having no operator’s license in his possession. The man told us that, because of these charges, he lost his job as a contractor with the federal government that he had held for years.
[/code[
Anyone defending this needs to actually re-read the article in question. This is fucking disgusting and pathetic. This is NOT what our country stands for. There is no justification, there are no excuses - this is fucking pathetic. It sickens me that people read this and try to justify it as "well, maybe if blacks just stopped robbing eachother"...
Nobody deserves what this police department in Ferguson did to them. That story about them charging the inmate they beat with "destruction of government propery" for bleeding on their uniforms as they beat him in a prison cell doesn't seem so far-fetched now, does it?
What is really troubling to me is how some people's first inclinations afte reading this article wasn't to recoil in horror, but instead provide justifications for police. That just screams "us vs them".
The truth is, this should be ALL OF US against police departments like this. This is a fucking downright travesty. And those of you who just commented without reading the article (you know who you are)... READ THE FUCKING ARTICLE.
But Mayor James Knowles III said the city wanted to make whatever changes it could to convince the U.S. government that “these sorts of things don’t happen in the city of Ferguson.”
Link - ( New Window )
on a side note, and generally speaking - some doj recommendations can be very helpful for agencies. lot of them are various means of risk management.
The move comes in the wake of last week's scathing Justice Department report which, among other troubling revelations, concluded that the Ferguson court was "constitutionally deficient" and acted "not with the primary goal of administering justice or protecting the rights of the accused, but of maximizing revenue."
link - ( New Window )
Are you sure we are all American? One person that worked for me was African. He was certainly hassled by police and had the same issues discussed here. But he was not American. Again, there are many issues to be dealt with here but the biggest and most important by far are black on black crime, poverty, drug laws, criminal records. ....
If you want to chase the racial bogeyman as the cause to the issue, go for it...and will just be kicking the can the road further and the issue will not get better.
Its a shakedown but it is not just a black people thing. We all know it and have known it. Its revenue generation.
Link - ( New Window )
Three officers and one clerk gone on a staff that misrepresented its community by a count of 15-25. And unlike Wilson, their reputation isn't as maligned so they can continue to work in their chosen career.
Oh, I am so using that.
School is in session. As always, great job, Professor Bill2!
Ending black on black crime. He seems to think that by doing that, that will greatly reduce racism in this country.
I think I finally am getting (somewhat) an understanding of PA's thinking. He seems to think that racism is strictly fear-based and, I'm guessing, a majority of racist people in this country are racist because of fear of black people. While I do not doubt that in some cases this may be the case, I'm not sure this is the case with most (as he seems to suggest)... or even half... of racist people throughout the country. Again, he had/has no response when I ask him if 'fear' is the main reason for racist attitudes in this country... how does that explain that attitude during slavery? How about during the 60's and 70's when black on black crime was at it's lowest?
I'm still waiting for a response to this question.
More bull crap here
I have given the answer numerous times. Of course fear is a major driver. It is self preservation. That is the basis of racism. WTF does slavery really have to do with it? You want to buy in to some sort of long road to climb....fine but most people in this country have no connection to being slave owners so there is no connection or guilt.
Young people understand this more and more. Racism is becoming less and less because young people recognize how stupid it is and it doesn't assimilate with them in most places.
Ferguson was such a mess because as usual, the cause was headed by a thug who just robbed a store in a violent manner and was caught on video. Then Wilson shoots him and people want to use Brown as the victim. This is the whole problem in a nutshell.
Day after day of news, thread after thread here and no one gives a shit about kids dying in Chicago every day. No we care about a thug. And spare me the Ferguson PD because that is not what people say. They still say "hands up don't shoot" and that never even fucking happened. It makes the cause look like a bunch of ignorant morons.
Solving the problem will take some serious leadership in the black community, stop making excuses. Clear criminal records of non violent crime. Vigorously convict and put away violent offenders. Change drug laws. Start 2nd chance programs with an eye towards education and clean criminal records as a goal. Continue working and de-incentivize kids from having kids....etc...
Ferguson was a powder keg.
The shooting of Mike Brown was simply the match. Had it not been Brown, given the environment of that town - it would have certainly been someone else. It wasn't a matter of 'if', it was a matter of 'when'.
Come on now.....
It was some secret that everyone in the country knew about this evil little town known as Ferguson....lol...please..
So they burned their town down...Not the white side though but their own community...makes sense huh?
So if they all knew about this ahead of time and how Ferguson was so evil....Where are the protests in places where black kids are dying every day...actual innocent kids? hmmmmm
In other words, stop pretending to give a shit about the black community when you actions show you don't.
I think my first post in this thread characterized him as thinking this.
Gee- slavery has absolutely nothing to do with attitudes towards black folks (or attitudes towards white folks) today.
I wish it didn't have anything to do with it, but it is essentially the driving force behind everything you're talking about.
Silly.
Now explain to me how people become racist because of slavery.
"WTF does slavery really have to do with it?"? Do you agree that slave owners held a racist attitude towards their slaves? If so, can we also agree that these slave owners didn't have any 'fear' of their slaves? And, if you can agree to that, can you then please tell me how this 'fear' cause slave owners to have this racist attitude towards their slaves? THAT's why I've brought slavery into this discussion... to ask you if fear is the main basis for racism, how to you explain racism back in those times (or the 60's and 70's if you like). It has nothing to do with any 'long road to climb' or suggesting that any one should feel any 'guilt'. That sentence is just you trying to deflect the argument again.
Actually, going by the federal report, Ferguson was a 'mess' looooong before Brown was shot (or probably even born). But of course, you don't see that. As far as you're concerned, the 'whole problem in a nutshell' is that black people have brought all the violence (lynchings, police brutality, etc.) on themselves. Which is actually a pretty scary outlook if you ask me.
Yeah... because you've started soooo many threads regarding these kids dying ever day in Chicago (not sure why you think it's only happening in one city... but whatever) yourself!
Because the movement isn't only tied to the Wilson/Brown situation but because police brutality happens all over the fucking country! And you think other's are looking like a moron?!
Point blank, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and the fact that not one single poster on this site agrees with you SHOULD BE very telling you something. But no... you're just gonna sit there and continue to put your hands over year ears and shout what YOU think is the main cause of racism in this country. Your position is so comical that I've actually been telling people I know, both black and white, and every single one of them thinks that train of thought is idiotic. But go ahead... continue to tell us some more about black on black crime and poverty, and education, and babies having children (because these are only issues in the black community of course) to try to continue to make yourself seem as some kind of intellectual superior. It's going over great on this thread.
AND YOU DO?!!!!
Quote:
I have given the answer numerous times. Of course fear is a major driver. It is self preservation. That is the basis of racism. WTF does slavery really have to do with it? You want to buy in to some sort of long road to climb....fine but most people in this country have no connection to being slave owners so there is no connection or guilt.
Now explain to me how people become racist because of slavery.
You really can't be that stupid can you? I mean... seriously? Read what you wrote out loud. It may help. And try to understand what Cam is really saying and try not to interpret it in the way YOU want to.....
If it was THE "problem" and deserving of JUST that focus and that focus then it could only be because uniquely amongst people...black people would want to be poor with fewer opportunities and desiring to break more laws and liking to commit violence. If that was true...then they are the problem and the solution. Since I don't think they do...those indicators are not the problem. Metrics that are of and by generations of a whole people that do not reflect their intent...are not the whole of causality. Period
in an orgy of bad magical thinking PA asserts that he knows more than 250 years of any people before him ever knew....we are all wrong and he is right...He knows that black people want the outcomes he notices?
In this issue this nation has 250 years of bad thinking.
In the last 40 years Rhode Island had four state supreme court justices removed after post nomination corruption in cases they ruled on. The world is full of suboptimal and sometimes rogue local legal systems. Ditto enforcement bureaucracies. Like all other human groups they are prone to sub optimal. It's a problem.
I think we do better analysis when we do not conflate the two issues other than to note a logical flash points where organization rot is found and most easily "seen" the world over is three places: people with money, people who want money and people who have none.
Shredding evidence of organizational rot and poor thinking of some individuals to hold triumphant a proposed conclusive insight about exactly why race and assimilation in America is a problem ( the victims are to blame because we can tag metrics to visible tangible manifestations and not to 9/10 of the iceberg of context) is just plain bad thinking. Correlation is not causality and certainty about a complex phenomenon from one sidebar frame of reference is bound to miss whole truth even if it catches an observation. Lastly the observations we have metrics for are never the same as having all aspects of a problem in measurable form.
Just an explanation of how for better or worse i have been looking at this aspect of the thread
Where to begin....
Most people I know are not racist. The vast majority. Most whites I know are usually confused as to how to even approach black subjects because they don't want to offend people. You think there are that high of a % of racists out there? And it is fear far more then hate. Because there is reason to fear. Fear leads to mistrust. And it becomes a math equation and logic over hate.
You think these white cops were just born racist? You think black cops can't come to be just as abusive to black people as the white cops? Of course they can. Now why is that? I dare you to answer.
You really think slavery is directly why some people might hold racist views today? Most people today have no connection to slavery whatsoever. Makes no sense.
If I started a thread about kids dying in Chicago or any other city I would be attacked for it. But then again this is not my cause right? It is you guys carrying this torch.....yet not one thread from you guys...Which makes you hypocrites.
The movement was tied to the Brown shooting and it was foolish and I told you that from day one...So where is the "movement" today? Where are the riots then? Where is the protest now if Brown was such a small piece?
Heck the federal report just came out and no riots, no protests int he streets? Hmmmmmm....obviously you are wrong
I do give a shit about the black community. I also recognize that nothing is going to change until people change their venom inward instead of outward. Outward is not going to solve anything. You fix the problems as I describe and the whole problem self corrects.
Quote:
I have given the answer numerous times. Of course fear is a major driver. It is self preservation. That is the basis of racism. WTF does slavery really have to do with it? You want to buy in to some sort of long road to climb....fine but most people in this country have no connection to being slave owners so there is no connection or guilt.
Now explain to me how people become racist because of slavery.
Are you seriously asking that question? I mean I have seen some whoppers asked before on BBI but I really want to believe you are being attempting to be sarcastic with that question.? Otherwise it is a mindbogglingly stupid one.
How does slavery make people today racist?
First off, good for you (I guess). Judging by your posts on this thread, I have no doubt that 'most whites' YOU know (there you go again, lumping everyone into one big group) are confused as to how to approach black subjects because if their thinking is anything like yours then they SHOULD be confused... mainly because them, like you, would have no idea what you're talking about.
I never said that.
I see... so there's a 'reason to fear' eh? Because some black people have committed crimes against other black people eh? What about those black people that don't commit any crimes at all? You have fear of them too? If so, why? If not, also, why?
Never said that either. Again, it's an annoying habit you have to make up these statements/arguments that you think you're hearing and then basing your arguments off of those. Racism is a LEARNED trait. No one is born racist.
Finally something we can agree on. Yes, black cops can be just as abusive to black people as white cops. On that we can agree on. Why is that? Because some (not all) cops don't see any other color than 'Blue'. They see it as an 'US vs Them' struggle and they know that most people (black, white or other) don't see anything but 'blue' as well when it comes to how they view the police. Therefore some cops, of all races, believe that the brotherhood of being a part of a police department outweighs the brotherhood of their race... and that's fine if they do see it like that. Where it becomes an issue is when they overstep their boundaries and commit some form of police brutality. Now please stop with the 'I dare you to answer' bull because you're really not presenting some tough questions. Silly ones maybe... but not tough to answer.
You're right... when you put it the way YOU put it... yeah, it makes no sense. Glad you're able to see that for yourself. What I and others have been saying is that racist attitudes have existed since, at least, the times of slavery. Matter of fact, they've existed before then as witnessed how white people, when they came over to this country and found Native Americans here, thought of them as 'sub human' and 'animals'. Please try to understand what I and others are saying because it'd go a long way to having a valid, civil discussion (if that's what you really want).
That's weak. You don't know that and I'm not sure why you'd even think that. But then again, I'm guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Ending police brutality, which is what this is all about, should be EVERYONE'S cause because it isn't just caused and affected by black people but all races. Again though, judging by your posts on this thread, can't say I'm surprised by your thinking. You don't start a thread because you'll get attacked for it... but if we don't start a thread about it, it's because we're hypocrites. Your lack of self awareness knows no bounds.
Heck the federal report just came out and no riots, no protests int he streets? Hmmmmmm....obviously you are wrong.
See link below and feel free to select either of the first two links in them. Thanks in advance.
I highly doubt this but if you say so.
Perhaps the 'venom' should be going both ways? Of course you wouldn't think that, because then it'd destroy your stance that all of the racism that black people experience in this country has been brought on by themselves!
For PA... not that you'll click on this link - ( New Window )
LOL! And you think that proves that you're NOT a racist? I'm trying to believe that you aren't... but your posts on this thread are REALLY making that hard to do.
Thank you!
So if my ideas ignorant, what are yours? Where are anyone on this threads solutions?
Why? Because once you do, then the rest of your arguments fall apart. You have to accept that it is the behavior and seeing violence and degradation day after day is the cause of it. Not inherent racism.
So black cops abuse blacks because they only see blue?
And White cops abuse blacks because they are racist?
You realize how this begins to unravel all of your arguments? Rather then believe that the fact that 1/3 black people will have a criminal record. Or that the vast majority of violent crime is in the black community and against other black people. ANd this conditions the cops.....
No it is racist for whites, and blacks only seeing blue....
Whose fault is it that there is so much violent crime in the inner cities?