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NFT: affordable care act

fkap : 3/4/2015 7:45 pm
ok, so first and foremost, don't go partisan in discussing it, but....

What is the essence of the affordable care act?

As best this poor soul can figure out, there are two basics:

you must have insurance. if you're poor enough, the gov't will subsidize it. if you're not poor enough, the gov't will penalize you for not having it.

the act makes it easy for your work place to not cover you when you retire. It may just be coincidence, but starting in 2015, almost everywhere, when you retire, you're on your own.

So, all you believers, convince me. What else did the affordable care act do to make the health care business more affordable.

I really hope this isn't political, but it's something I've been thinking about, and most of what I'm thinking is I must be missing something. Tell me what I'm missing.
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How could this thread  
Steve in South Jersey : 3/4/2015 7:47 pm : link
possibly be non-political?
If you paid for insurance on your own  
PA Giant Fan : 3/4/2015 7:48 pm : link
Good chance it went up in price since you are now in a higher risk pool and covering things you don't need at this point in your life.
this probably won't last long, but....  
Bockman : 3/4/2015 7:48 pm : link
it didn't make anything affordable, and the idea that the government can force you to buy something is absurd, IMO.

If you agree w/ universal healthcare, then I can respect that. But the ACA is just a clusterfuck all around that accomplishes nothing for all "sides".
I'm pretty sure Stan can help you  
Mike in Philly : 3/4/2015 7:52 pm : link
With what you want to know.
Steve  
fkap : 3/4/2015 7:54 pm : link
it is a very significant portion of everyone's life. It's a real issue. intelligent people can discuss issues without bringing mindless political commentary into it.

What car to drive, what house to buy...they can be non political. Why is health insurance any different?
There is alot not to like  
JerseyCityJoe : 3/4/2015 7:55 pm : link
But giving more people access to healthcare and not allowing insurance companies to drop you for previous aliments is a good start.

Before I get jumped all over I have my own healthcare and this bill probably hurts me more than helps me.
Definitely good points  
PA Giant Fan : 3/4/2015 7:58 pm : link
Can't be dropped or hurt by pre-existing conditions
Keep kids on till 26 I think
Helps people get insurance that couldn't afford otherwise

But makes things worse for more people

Higher rates for lower levels of coverage for many...If they threw me a bone and let me write off my health insurance on my taxes...I might feel better about it.
Right  
mattlawson : 3/4/2015 7:59 pm : link
And not being able to opt out sucks for those that have horrible plans through work.

But it's a start -- the pre existing condition issue was a big one
Mike in Philly  
fkap : 3/4/2015 7:59 pm : link
exhibit one on why issues can't be discussed intelligently.

No real input other than to preemptively antagonize another person.
It's never been a problem ...  
sphinx : 3/4/2015 8:05 pm : link
"the act makes it easy for your work place to not cover you when you retire. It may just be coincidence, but starting in 2015, almost everywhere, when you retire, you're on your own."

I retired in 2001.

In 2005 my former employer took away the "for life" free drug coverage they had promised my wife and me for the 21 years I worked for them.

The next year, 2006, they took away the "for life" free medical coverage they had promised my wife and me for the 21 years I worked for them.

I've been on my own in this respect before anyone heard of Barack Hussein Obama or "the act".


sphinx  
fkap : 3/4/2015 8:09 pm : link
I don't disagree with you, but it just seemed as though every time I turned around, 2015 was being touted as a cut off point. Pretty much everyone I know faced the same thing. Maybe it's just coincidence.
It really does nothing to control costs  
buford : 3/4/2015 8:09 pm : link
Unless you get a subsidy, you are likely paying more and getting less. Highter deductibles, higher co-pays and less care. Networks are also narrower.
The affordable care act isn't affordable or care.  
Red Dog : 3/4/2015 8:14 pm : link
It is a massive expansion of welfare with the shrinking middle class footing the bill. Again.
Buford  
fkap : 3/4/2015 8:15 pm : link
not sure I know about the networks, but could you explain the 'less care'?

my insurance went from a nice HMO to a high deductible plan (which sucks, but I don't know as it had anything to do with the ACA. it was coming. the company didn't want to pay what it would take to keep me in a good insurance plan, so they downgraded. was going to happen one way or another)
It lasted a half an hour  
Headhunter : 3/4/2015 8:15 pm : link
surprised
dont know  
spike : 3/4/2015 8:17 pm : link
did anyone actually read through the proposal book before getting it approved?
Red Dog  
fkap : 3/4/2015 8:19 pm : link
unfortunately, that's my take as well. I'm really hoping someone will educate me differently, but all I see is a gov't subsidization program, with nothing that is really going to address healthcare costs. It addresses healthcare coverage, but nothing about healthcare costs, and unless you address the real issue, all you're doing is a welfare program.
From what I understand but I'm not old enough to verify  
mrvax : 3/4/2015 8:20 pm : link
Social Security was seriously flawed when it came out. It took years to finally iron things out with that program. I expected the same with the Affordable Care Act.
headhunter  
fkap : 3/4/2015 8:21 pm : link
exhibit two on showing up on a thread with nothing to add other than to stir the pot.
RE: It really does nothing to control costs  
sphinx : 3/4/2015 8:21 pm : link
In comment 12163902 buford said:
Quote:
Unless you get a subsidy, you are likely paying more and getting less. Highter deductibles, higher co-pays and less care. Networks are also narrower.

"It really does nothing to control costs ... Highter deductibles, higher co-pays ... Networks are also narrower." I assume you're referring to the Medicare Prescription Drug plan since 2005.

I will say this,  
pjcas18 : 3/4/2015 8:23 pm : link
1) no I could not keep my same plan, 2) my premiums increased 3) I have a deductible now when i didn't before and 4) my coverage got worse


The Obamacare plans  
buford : 3/4/2015 8:24 pm : link
are only serviced by certain networks. So the old 'you can keep your doctor' doesn't always apply. In some states there are only one or two hospitals that will take the insurance.

Less care. Well if you are paying more in premiums, copays and have a higher deductible, you will probably not go to the doctor as often. So the ACA is doing exactly the opposite of what it promised to do. What Obamacare does is give people a false sense of security that they are 'covered'. You can have insurance and not get good care.
Link - ( New Window )
It's a start.  
drkenneth : 3/4/2015 8:24 pm : link
.
RE: RE: It really does nothing to control costs  
buford : 3/4/2015 8:25 pm : link
In comment 12163962 sphinx said:
Quote:
In comment 12163902 buford said:


Quote:


Unless you get a subsidy, you are likely paying more and getting less. Highter deductibles, higher co-pays and less care. Networks are also narrower.


"It really does nothing to control costs ... Highter deductibles, higher co-pays ... Networks are also narrower." I assume you're referring to the Medicare Prescription Drug plan since 2005.


You won't find me defending that. Anytime the government gets involved, stuff costs more and is less efficient.
fkap  
Headhunter : 3/4/2015 8:26 pm : link
How about this? blow me
RE: I will say this,  
sphinx : 3/4/2015 8:27 pm : link
In comment 12163971 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
1) no I could not keep my same plan, 2) my premiums increased 3) I have a deductible now when i didn't before and 4) my coverage got worse

If you're referring to the Medicare Prescription Drug plan, I fully agree.

Like any fucking law, its ugly.  
WideRight : 3/4/2015 8:27 pm : link
But really, it's pretty smart stuff, all in all.

The health care industry was on a path to canniblize the entire economy, and the law, creating new markets, allowed the cost curve to shift without rationing or putting in price controls, either of which which would been more constitutionally suspect.

And ironically, its a huge transfer of wealth from blue states who support it to red states that despise it, so the likelihood of repeal is pretty remote.
There were better ways  
buford : 3/4/2015 8:34 pm : link
to accomplish what is really needed.
RE: There were better ways  
sphinx : 3/4/2015 8:38 pm : link
In comment 12164027 buford said:
Quote:
to accomplish what is really needed.

When the Medicare Prescription Drug plan was enacted it was a mess. Both side of the aisle tried to make it work. No one talked about repeal. Is that too political?

Wide right  
fkap : 3/4/2015 8:39 pm : link
I don't disagree with you as far as the direction health industry was going, but, again, I'm looking for an explanation of how the ACA is staving off the health industry abuse. I see it as feeding the industry, not controlling it.
RE: RE: I will say this,  
pjcas18 : 3/4/2015 8:40 pm : link
In comment 12163998 sphinx said:
Quote:
In comment 12163971 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


1) no I could not keep my same plan, 2) my premiums increased 3) I have a deductible now when i didn't before and 4) my coverage got worse


If you're referring to the Medicare Prescription Drug plan, I fully agree.


My prescription plan actually remained exactly the same. I have no problems with my prescription plan on its own, but like I said, I now have higher premiums for worse coverage and a deductible.
Yeah it's half-assed  
schabadoo : 3/4/2015 8:45 pm : link
Single payer is what was needed, but the idea of basic healthcare for our citizens is a nonstarter for a certain vocal minority.

My health insurance doubled in the decade before Obamacare.
RE: Wide right  
WideRight : 3/4/2015 8:51 pm : link
In comment 12164054 fkap said:
Quote:
I don't disagree with you as far as the direction health industry was going, but, again, I'm looking for an explanation of how the ACA is staving off the health industry abuse. I see it as feeding the industry, not controlling it.


The Hillary attempt at universal health care taught that a free society can't control health care on a level as intimate as the patient/physician relationship, so the ACA took a different tact: incentivize it. Create markets for patients no-one previously wanted to cover, reward foward thinking behavior, risk reduction, preventive care, incentivize more efficent practice models: electronic records, accountable care organizations. Its dismantling the old broken system in a death by a thousand cuts. Something new will grow out of this, and it will be better, because it has to.
Heard today  
ctc in ftmyers : 3/4/2015 8:52 pm : link
That insurance profits or stocks are up 53%. Helps when the government mandates everyone buys your product.

Court case doesn't matter. The republicans came out and said the subsidies will be funded no matter what the outcome. Nobody loses coverage.

As far as the ACA? It is what it is. As mentioned above, I would feel better is they threw me a bone with a tax deduction for my premiums. Other than that, insurance was a shit show before and it's a shit show now.
Are you really interested in an explaination  
Gary from The East End : Admin : 3/4/2015 8:53 pm : link
Or do you just want to go off on a rant?

If you have a specific question, I can answer it.
Insurance stocks are lagging the market by a long shot.  
WideRight : 3/4/2015 8:55 pm : link
the market is up over 100% since Bush left office.
it really boils down to whether your state is running there own  
CGiants07 : 3/4/2015 8:55 pm : link
health exchange or not. If your state is running an exchange its an ok start but like what was said earlier the major problem with health care system is the ever rising cost of health care, people not being able to afford coverage is a secondary problem that is caused by the major problem. I have a silver select plan thru NY state of Health where im paying $139 per month with gov't subsidy covering the other 70% of my premiums with no deductible which works for me.
Gary  
fkap : 3/4/2015 8:58 pm : link
I gave my honest opinion on what I understood of the ACA.

I begged for someone to educate me otherwise.

Do you wish to contribute to the conversation? Or just dismiss my question as a rant?
He just wants  
Headhunter : 3/4/2015 9:01 pm : link
to rant
RE: RE: Wide right  
ctc in ftmyers : 3/4/2015 9:03 pm : link
In comment 12164094 WideRight said:
Quote:
In comment 12164054 fkap said:


Quote:


I don't disagree with you as far as the direction health industry was going, but, again, I'm looking for an explanation of how the ACA is staving off the health industry abuse. I see it as feeding the industry, not controlling it.



The Hillary attempt at universal health care taught that a free society can't control health care on a level as intimate as the patient/physician relationship, so the ACA took a different tact: incentivize it. Create markets for patients no-one previously wanted to cover, reward foward thinking behavior, risk reduction, preventive care, incentivize more efficent practice models: electronic records, accountable care organizations. Its dismantling the old broken system in a death by a thousand cuts. Something new will grow out of this, and it will be better, because it has to.


Reports coming out are that ER visits are steady rising. This time of year, season in Fl., 3 weeks to get a doctors appointment. What's left?

I'm not so sure that in won't turn into a two tiered system like many other countries. It already has to an extent.
RE: Insurance stocks are lagging the market by a long shot.  
ctc in ftmyers : 3/4/2015 9:06 pm : link
In comment 12164108 WideRight said:
Quote:
the market is up over 100% since Bush left office.


Must be profits then. Why I mentioned either or.

Thanks.
RE: RE: There were better ways  
Deej : 3/4/2015 9:08 pm : link
In comment 12164048 sphinx said:
Quote:

When the Medicare Prescription Drug plan was enacted it was a mess. Both side of the aisle tried to make it work. No one talked about repeal. Is that too political?


This is such a crucial point. The ACA probably has some problems. Congress could be working on improvements, revamps etc. They arent. Anything more I could say would be too political (though I dont blame one side 100%).
Huzzah for single payer.  
Sarcastic Sam : 3/4/2015 9:10 pm : link
Because, it, um.... well, works in other countries?

Plenty of examples of the government taking over private enterprise, with improvement in quality and cost. Right?

Things mandated by the government since the mid-2000's.... EMR, resulting in significant increase in cost and physician workload with no real evidence that quality improves.

Shifting of payments from physicians to hospitals and MSG.... which tend to cost more from the outset. Great move?

Significant increase in roadblocks to creating ambulatory surgery centers, even though they have ridiculously less costs than hospital based OR's. Hooray!

Meaningful use requirements that few physicians can meaningfully use. Government inaction....

Proliferation of special extortion units to railroad physicians to give hard-earned money back to the government. After all, if you call it fraud, it must be bad, right?

headhunter, Gary  
fkap : 3/4/2015 9:11 pm : link
what rant?
from the beginning, I explained I wanted a discussion. I said what my thought of the ACA was, and I begged for someone to educate me. Don't make this into something it isn't. I sincerely want to know if my view of the ACA is wrong.
HH, if you have nothing to contribute to the thread other than snarky comments, please do not post. it is not productive.
I want the Supreme Court to tell 7 million people  
Headhunter : 3/4/2015 9:15 pm : link
they are shit out of luck. All those doctor appointments you've made, you better cancel them. You scheduled surgery? No surgery for you. You finally feel like you are part of society? Back to second class no insurance status for you
ACA put a cap on insurance company profits  
WideRight : 3/4/2015 9:16 pm : link
at 20% I believe. Above that and they must give refunds to their customers. From an investment perspective, they will be like a utility play. Marginally better than a bond. Long term though, insurance companies are fucked. ACOs will get smarter and assume more and more risk for profit, at the expense of the insurers. The insurers will lose growth potential, leverage and become shell companies with brand names. One of the real threats to the ACA is that an insurer will collapse and cause a major market disturbance. Obviously conjecture, so fire away, but from an investment prespective it appears far smarter to own the hospital than the insurer.
RE: RE: RE: Wide right  
sphinx : 3/4/2015 9:18 pm : link
In comment 12164131 ctc in ftmyers said:
Quote:
Reports coming out are that ER visits are steady rising.

Do the reports clarify the numbers between states that have accepted Medicaid expansion ... or not?

RE: Insurance stocks are lagging the market by a long shot.  
buford : 3/4/2015 9:19 pm : link
In comment 12164108 WideRight said:
Quote:
the market is up over 100% since Bush left office.


Well pumping money that is borrowed into the market will do that. Plus interests rates are non-existant so there is no where else to put your money. But that will change and it won't be pretty.
I will say that healthcare is one of the least functional markets  
Deej : 3/4/2015 9:20 pm : link
one you have someone other than the user paying (insurance, govt etc) you're going to have an inefficient market. Insurance as a delivery model for routine services makes no sense. I dont buy chicken insurance for the 50-100 lbs of chicken I eat every year. Insurance is for unpredictable risk.

Add in how hard it is to have price sensitivities in any regardless of who is paying. You have a doctor, has been your doc for 10 years. He sends you for an MRI, he has no idea how much it costs or it is in his practice and it would be really weird to start negotiating. Or you're having a heart attack -- stop to negotiate? Shoot, you're in the hospital and random docs send you bills, ones you dont even remember seeing.

Now look at the distorting power of market participants with too much power. In many places, eg. NYC, the insurance companies are kind of at the mercy of the hospitals, which are banding together in bigger and bigger consortiums (or corporations where allowed). How are you going to be an insurer in NY and not have Sinai/Beth Israel, or Cornell/Columbia? These hospitals can make their own rates. I understand there is essentially one entity that controls all hospitals in Pittsburgh. Then turn to drugcos (who I think are sometimes unfairly maligned). They often have patent monopolies which lead to good new drugs, but really high drug prices.

The healthcare "market" is naturally dysfunctional. This isnt Obama's fault, and it isnt the GOP's fault. It's impossible to try to replicate and Adam Smith type model of small buyers and small sellers all with perfect information setting market prices and allocating resources through the invisible hand. You cant pretend that but-for the guv'mint, this would all work out fine.
Well, we haven't had anywhere close to a "free  
kicker : 3/4/2015 9:20 pm : link
market" of health care in the United States, for at least 70 years.

The ACA also isn't a single payer system, and wasn't designed to be one, though the health outcomes of single payer systems are superior to ours in a number of ways, and inferior in others.

The ACA is an attempt to patch over the significant number of pitfalls in our system, including quality of care, health outcomes, costs, and access to care.

However, it has created a significant number of issues.

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