Kirwan Mock Draft #5

I mean, I like him but not at that spot in the draft. He's a mauler though.

We don't know what teams needs are until we get further into free agency. For example, if the Giants sign Orlando Franklin, why would they draft La'el Collins.

being Collins, Scherff or Peat, I wouldn't complain, and the Giants under Coughlin and Reese sure know how to hit on first rounders.

It would though, make for a very interesting decision if Cooper were still on the board.

Hard not to take Cooper there though.

Very interesting that Kirwan doesn't strongly value the WR prospects.

and forecast for the draft. Think he is right on the money about Chip Kelly. Kelly has demonstrated already, that he is the real deal. Now he is building his team according to his own specs. Hope our front office keeps pace because the NFC East is going to be one tough division.

...that the WRs might drop out of the top ten. All the other teams with early picks have more pressing needs, so they won't force a pick at WR. Since there's no way to know how White and Cooper grade out against the rest of the class, or compared to last year's bumper crop of receivers, it's impossible to say whether they rate a top-ten pick purely on merit.

if we go Ol. Versatile and athletic with attitude and good size.

....and will immediately make our ultra soft O-Line stronger at the POA. Love this pick.

I've warmed up a lot to him recently. He'll definitely help to reintroduce power football to this OL and overall team identity.

Has to be.

listening to him on Sirius he really knows his stuff. However there is no way in hell Cooper makes it to #11 past the Jets AND Giants. He needs to put the crack pipe down.

And I could see the Eagles moving in front of the Jets. But I still don't see the Giants taking a red chip OL or a 3-4 OLB as a pass rusher over a Blue chip WR at 9.

If raiders stay at 4 but throw big money to cobb do they skip on taken Cooper/White? Do Jets take edge rusher or wr, and then I don't see how we pass on a wr unless we fail to sign an olineman during free agency.

...to see which of these fine rookies will spend the year on IR! :)

...

In comment 12166396 David B. said:

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And I could see the Eagles moving in front of the Jets. But I still don't see the Giants taking a red chip OL or a 3-4 OLB as a pass rusher over a Blue chip WR at 9.

This^^^

Is obviously way more tuned than I am, but us passing on both WR's is beyond belief.

Skill at #9 every time (or a little later see OBJ). If Collins is Martin (see Dallas) I'm on board. If he is not an all pro (cause he needs to be at OG for that high a pick) then go for a more impactfull position.

with Pugh moving to LG.

An acceptable pick.

The question is whether any of those ten teams grade Cooper or White as a blue-chip WR.

In comment 12166508 Big Blue Blogger said:

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The question is whether any of those ten teams grade Cooper or White as a blue-chip WR.

I could see a question about White. He was a combine star, late riser. But Cooper has been a top 5 (3?) prospect from forever. He's entitled to his opinion but so are we. For the Giants to pass on Cooper, Collins would have to be a level better prospect given their draft priorities.

Which is not to say that the OL aren't very good, just that Cooper, White and Parker are better.

The need should NEVER outweigh the value of the player..

You can get a starting guard later..

Its amazing how many of these guys just see NEED and stick a player there ignoring the value of the player..

In comment 12166508 Big Blue Blogger said:

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The question is whether any of those ten teams grade Cooper or White as a blue-chip WR.

Exactly. There are a lot of cocksure people on this board that never question their assumptions.

How can Cooper not be a blue chip WR? I would be less sure about White & Parker, but Cooper has the resume.

In comment 12166549 blueblood said:

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The need should NEVER outweigh the value of the player.. You can get a starting guard later.. Its amazing how many of these guys just see NEED and stick a player there ignoring the value of the player..

You mean like James Brewer? or Brandon Mosely?

what the Giants do in Free Agency in a couple days. If we land another quality starter along the line where would the top 10 pick play?


Beatty-Pugh-Richburg-Schwartz-FA/RT

-or-

Beatty-FA/OG-Richburg-Schwartz-Pugh

All 5 are either top 2 round draft picks or quality FA signings. Point being, all guys who Giants have invested a premium pick or decent cap money on and expected to perform at a high level.

Would the Giants spend another pick at 9 for a guy who likely won't even start over the five already in place? The only way that makes sense (to me anyways), is an LT who could replace Beatty in 2016-7 and save us 8 million is cap space.

So unless Peat or even Scherff are guys Giants project as elite LTs, I don't see that kind of OL investment in the top 10 of the draft with the talent we'd be passing up in higher need areas.

In comment 12166589 Coach Mason said:

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what the Giants do in Free Agency in a couple days. If we land another quality starter along the line where would the top 10 pick play? Beatty-Pugh-Richburg-Schwartz-FA/RT -or- Beatty-FA/OG-Richburg-Schwartz-Pugh All 5 are either top 2 round draft picks or quality FA signings. Point being, all guys who Giants have invested a premium pick or decent cap money on and expected to perform at a high level. Would the Giants spend another pick at 9 for a guy who likely won't even start over the five already in place? The only way that makes sense (to me anyways), is an LT who could replace Beatty in 2016-7 and save us 8 million is cap space. So unless Peat or even Scherff are guys Giants project as elite LTs, I don't see that kind of OL investment in the top 10 of the draft with the talent we'd be passing up in higher need areas.

Exactly. Well put.

comes down to 3 types of player/positions: WR,OL, and Pass-rusher.

OL is not likely if we go for a quality starter for reasons listed above.

Pass-rusher has been spoken about quite a bit. Unless the Giants see something in one of the raw/developmental guys (Armstead,Dupree as example) or shift philosophy on type of pass rusher to draft this high (Beasley?) there is likely not enough value here to bypass other premium positions like WR.

WR, 3 guys could carry a very high grade in Cooper,White and Parker. Small chance for all 3 to be there. Decent chance for 2 of 3. Extremely likely 1 of 3 will be there. Not many talk up Parker but he had a pretty good combine in his own right and led nation in average yards per game last year. He is an excellent size/speed freak and upside IMV is right there with the White/Cooper.

Taller than Cooper, better hands and catching radius. Probably a better red zone threat. And compliments Beckham well.

Cooper's numbers this year are spectacular. His previous two seasons were good. If you take the "He outproduced everybody else at the highest level of competition" view (which figures prominently in profiles of Cooper), why was Jordan Matthews drafted 30 picks after Odell Beckham? Matthews's SEC resume was probably better, but he didn't have the ceiling of an early first-round pick.

As a non-CFB watcher, I have no axe to grind about Cooper as a top ten pick. I just think it's really hard for casual observers to judge the difference between a receiver who should go before the ninth pick and a receiver who should go eleventh.

Is he seems to have that 'diva' gene moreso than the other two.

But I also think he is the most gifted combination of size,reach and speed.

Don't know if the Giants would take him over Cooper or White should one be there but I think it's pretty close.

I don't see the sense in that. Not with Shelton and the 3 receivers all still on the board.

In comment 12166653 Big Blue Blogger said:

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Cooper's numbers this year are spectacular. His previous two seasons were good. If you take the "He outproduced everybody else at the highest level of competition" view (which figures prominently in profiles of Cooper), why was Jordan Matthews drafted 30 picks after Odell Beckham? Matthews's SEC resume was probably better, but he didn't have the ceiling of an early first-round pick. As a non-CFB watcher, I have no axe to grind about Cooper as a top ten pick. I just think it's really hard for casual observers to judge the difference between a receiver who should go before the ninth pick and a receiver who should go eleventh.

I would classify Cooper's performance as a freshman as borderline spectacular just for the fact that he posted those numbers his first year in the SEC fresh out of high school. Not many kids come close to that type of performance right out of the gate. It also shows rare ability to buck the learning curve.

...

Gregory is overrated right now. He's undersized. Not nearly as explosive as advertised and a liability vs the run. He can get to the ball with nobody in front of him. Put a body on him and it's over.

S Collins won't sniff top 10. This is the most overrated guy right now in this draft. He's Mr. Average. You don't draft that at #7 or close to the top 10.

I lumped his first two years together. Maybe that was a mistake, since he was playing hurt in 2013.

As long as the foot and toe injuries his sophomore year can be viewed as an aberration, his college production is pretty stunning. Foot problems always make me skittish. (See the premature decline of Hakeem Nicks, Ahmad Bradshaw, Jeremy Shockey, etc.)

Because the team's needs are more dire elsewhere. That's why I hope we fix the team up a bit in FA so we have flexibility to do something like that if it falls that way.

...concerns the dominance of Alabama's entire offense while he was there. Didn't a lot of opponents put eight men in the box to contain Lacy, Yeldon, Henry, Drake, etc.? Didn't that account for much of McCarron's success? His resume was great too. (Someday, maybe he'll throw a pass in an NFL game, and we'll find out whether he's any good.)

Not equating Cooper with McCarron, by any means. Just saying that context matters when you look at college stats.

In comment 12166726 Big Blue Blogger said:

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I lumped his first two years together. Maybe that was a mistake, since he was playing hurt in 2013. As long as the foot and toe injuries his sophomore year can be viewed as an aberration, his college production is pretty stunning. Foot problems always make me skittish. (See the premature decline of Hakeem Nicks, Ahmad Bradshaw, Jeremy Shockey, etc.)

While White shone due to his unexpectedly quick 40, Coopers combine performance wasn't too far behind, he ran a very good 40 for someone who isn't a burner, but his 3 cone and short shuttle were off the charts. He's pretty similar to Beckham in terms of some of his strengths. People may argue it would be better to get a bigger burner in White to complement Beckham, but the versatility Cooper and Beckham would give on the outside and motioning into the slot would be very hard to defend, especially if Cruz is anywhere near up to speed.

Foot injuries concern me a bit too but at least we can be pretty darn sure the Giants have looked deeply into the medical. He also of course, came back from it with a phenomenal junior campaign.

Is the most likely player in this entire draft to become an All Pro at his position. Even more than Cooper or WilIiams. I absolutely love him as a prospect.

Only question with him is do you take an OG that high? I dont think he's a plug and play OT. He has short arms and he reaches in space a little too much, issues the aren't as big a deal inside. But guys like Kirwan and Mayock are starting to feel better abou him as an OT, so maybe in a couple of years he could be an OT. Imo he's not a Franchise OT, but he could be a good OT or a monster OG. Versatile team leader with good feet, which is right up the Giants alley.

I'd take Cooper over him because I think well acquire a starting caliber OL in FA making WR more desired, but Collins is a borderline Top 5 prospect in my eyes. Better than Scherff or Peat.

This offense is about timing and being on the same page as your WR's (albeit in a different ways than the previous offense).

Give me Cooper. I think he is a QB's dream as a wide-out. My guess would be Him and Eli on the same page and very quickly develope chemistry.

WR aren't taken in the top 10. I don't see it. Either way we're going to have some very good options at #9, my only concern is the lack of 4-3 pass rushers, most look like 3-4 rushers. The talent will be there but will the player fit

could be our guy also. Our front goes from weakness to strength immediately, adding him to Hankins and JPP. The whole defense becomes more than respectable. We have to stop the run and get QB pressure to compete next year.

And we don't take White or Cooper (I defer to the Giants on that one), then we are nuts.

IMO. The top guys this year probably do not grade out as some from last year.

Guards AJ Cann and Laken Tomlinson have now crept into the late first round. That means there may very well be some highly-regarded G prospects available when the Giants 2nd rounder rolls around if those picks don't quite materialize as Kirwan mocks them.

I do think will be largely BPA based. I say largely because if two prospects are close need would be the likely tie breaker. But as an organization you have to say, we don't expect to be drafting here often, we need a difference maker.

...mock drafts leading into his more serious predictions once we get closer to the draft. IMO this qualifies as extremely unlikely.

In comment 12166551 Reb8thVA said:

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In comment 12166508 Big Blue Blogger said: Quote: The question is whether any of those ten teams grade Cooper or White as a blue-chip WR. Exactly. There are a lot of cocksure people on this board that never question their assumptions.

The bigger surprise is how sure everyone is that Collins is a guard. I believe Sy said he thinks Collins could play LT after a year or 2 of development. And if the Giants believe he can, then he makes a lot of sense at #9.

That said, this is a futile exercise before FA.

In comment 12166349 TMS said:

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and forecast for the draft. Think he is right on the money about Chip Kelly. Kelly has demonstrated already, that he is the real deal. Now he is building his team according to his own specs. Hope our front office keeps pace because the NFC East is going to be one tough division.

Disagree with this... for now. IMO, Kelly has proven himself to be the 'real deal' as a pro coach but has yet to prove himself as a good evaluator of talent in the pros. Not saying he isn't, just that we don't know that yet.

...with his mocks as much as he's making predictions. MTC is 4 hours x 6 shows a week.

BBI teen-girl mode meter just hit 11.

Fix the OL. Fix the OL. The Giants got 12 games of the greatest WR play in NFL history. They went 5-7 in those games because they couldn't run the ball or control the clock. They blew a 21 point lead to one of the worst teams in the NFL because they couldn't run the ball. Sign FA OL's draft OL's. Fix the OL it will fix the whole team. If there's an All Pro OL at 9 draft him even if he winds up at Guard. Fix the OL. It will fix the whole team.

with Cruz on the IR/PUP and a questionable future. If OL is taken care of in FA, and I think it will be, look for WR at #9.

In comment 12166310 BeerFridge said:

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I mean, I like him but not at that spot in the draft. He's a mauler though.

If you are going OT at that spot, I think Peat would be a wiser move in that scenario.

I am not on board with another WR pick in the first round.