These guys that have been signed make no sense other than Vereen. They are nothing more than special team guys which you can get late in the draft and college free agents after the draft. These contracts in year 2 are to high. Eli not being done is also a mistake and Prince should have gotten a long term deal.
I would have preferred Rolle and Thurmond to what has been signed. Suh only counts 6.1 in y ear one of his contract and not having JPP after this season could have been the money used for Suh in year 2.
the benefit of the doubt, he made did find a few diamonds in the rough with Adrian Robinson, Mark Herzlich, Jayron Hosely, JJ ... these guys have remained on the active roster for 4/5+ years collecting a paycheck for no services rendered !
These guys that have been signed make no sense other than Vereen. They are nothing more than special team guys which you can get late in the draft and college free agents after the draft. These contracts in year 2 are to high. Eli not being done is also a mistake and Prince should have gotten a long term deal.
I would have preferred Rolle and Thurmond to what has been signed. Suh only counts 6.1 in y ear one of his contract and not having JPP after this season could have been the money used for Suh in year 2.
Maybe they don't want to pay Eli. Everyone just assumes that is the case.
hes been copying and pasting the same article every offseason
"Jerry's drafts have been horrible" is way overstating a 3 year window when they were really bad. whether or not '11, '12 and '13 are excusable is a different discussion. But let's not expand the years here...
These guys that have been signed make no sense other than Vereen. They are nothing more than special team guys which you can get late in the draft and college free agents after the draft. These contracts in year 2 are to high. Eli not being done is also a mistake and Prince should have gotten a long term deal.
I would have preferred Rolle and Thurmond to what has been signed. Suh only counts 6.1 in y ear one of his contract and not having JPP after this season could have been the money used for Suh in year 2.
I would argue that Harris is an elite special teams guy who can play serviceable snaps at WR if needed.
for being able to hang onto a job while producing an inferior product year after year. 2015 should be no different and after a Johnny Boy tirade at year end he'll probably be given another chance as long as the seat license money hasn't dried up.
Drafts them he is not the one who gets them hurt on the field of play or practice. The draft is a crap shoot just like FA and you loose more than you win. Look at other teams drafts we are more than likely middle of the pack, plus winning makes players even more greedy and harder to keep. This team sucks and if not for OBJ the rebuild program would be the real top topic about this team.
To look at this.
The half full guys, Let's see how it plays out before we judge and the Half empty guys.
I'm in the half empty guys at this moment. We get rid of the athletes who were supposed to make it with us and replace them with new athletes who might do better, casillias and Thomas and newhouse. It's great if it works but bringing in several new guys because your drafts suck is not the answer.
To look at this.
The half full guys, Let's see how it plays out before we judge and the Half empty guys.
I'm in the half empty guys at this moment. We get rid of the athletes who were supposed to make it with us and replace them with new athletes who might do better, casillias and Thomas and newhouse. It's great if it works but bringing in several new guys because your drafts suck is not the answer.
Newhouse and Thomas have both lost starting jobs multiple times with there prior teams during there short NFL careers ... I am not optimistic nor understanding these moves
RE: Reese has had a couple of bad drafts (2011 & 2012)
have to miss before you realize Graziano may have a point?
BINGO! Don't shoot the messenger. Not only miss the playoffs, but "the wheels are coming off" 16-24 in their last 40 games, many of them embarrassing blowouts.
The only major area where Reese and co have completely f-ed up was on the offensive line. IMHO, that was the reason for this team going into the tank and they did very little of consequence to prevent it from happening.
BUT- There a lot of career ending injuries in the bunch as well.
Graziano is a tool.
True. Reese is Fine. Last year he was Phenomenal in FA and the Draft. Sadly Most of his signings got injured....
This team always gets injuries. Not his fault
Really? We're all of those signings guys with healthy histories before they got here? Beason, Andrews, Jennings come to mind as having track records of being injured seriously and often
The fact that we haven't been able to find a late round guard in all these years is a major failure. Every team in the league has a late round guard starting for them. Serious problems with the offensive line scouting.
The fact that we haven't been able to find a late round guard in all these years is a major failure. Every team in the league has a late round guard starting for them. Serious problems with the offensive line scouting.
Agreed and such an integral part of this team with such an immobile QB.
To look at this.
The half full guys, Let's see how it plays out before we judge and the Half empty guys.
I'm in the half empty guys at this moment. We get rid of the athletes who were supposed to make it with us and replace them with new athletes who might do better, casillias and Thomas and newhouse. It's great if it works but bringing in several new guys because your drafts suck is not the answer.
Newhouse and Thomas have both lost starting jobs multiple times with there prior teams during there short NFL careers ... I am not optimistic nor understanding these moves
Giants figure they can coach up these JAGs. They give them a fair shot then finally release them. They bring in new JAGs and now we wait to see how it plays out. We give them benefit of doubt since we won in the past.
Everyone is correct here.....Our record sucks since our last super bowl and many blow out losses. But we do have trophies.....
I don't think that writers who cover teams have certain "agendas" so to speak - but this article just wreaks of Graziano trying to stir up something negative about the front office.
1. 2008 was 7 years ago. You can't retroactively look back that far and say that just because a certain number of players aren't on the team from those years means that the GM is an idiot.
2. The past 2 drafts have been very solid, and of course, Graziano refuses to bring up this point. Because of the crapshoot nature, its nearly impossible to "draft well" every single year. Teams will go through periods of bad drafts and then pick it up with a few home runs.
3. Phillips and Thomas were pro-bowl caliber players and excellent draft picks by Reese. Nicks basically won us the Super Bowl in 2012. Rather than addressing this, he chooses to say that they just aren't on the team anymore, which is somehow Reese's fault.
The fact that we haven't been able to find a late round guard in all these years is a major failure. Every team in the league has a late round guard starting for them. Serious problems with the offensive line scouting.
Agreed and such an integral part of this team with such an immobile QB.
That would be Pat Flaherty. As stated before and witnessed on Finding Giants, position coaches are an integral part of late round picks and UDFA. From what I seen Reese is even asking scouts and coaches questions about why they like these guys in episode 4. Reese and Mara leave right after the draft.
That's long gone now. Now GM and coach need more consistent results. You can't keep riding the SB wins and have the team going backwards. I have no issue with front office and coach getting ripped.
last two drafts have been solid. But hd had some very bad drafts for a few years that thinned out the depth considerably, and forced him to overpay in FA. Too much emphasis on "measureables," and not enough on character. He seems to have at least corrected the latter problem. Phillips, Jones, Nicks, MM, and Cruz got hurt. Jones almost died. We hope for the best for Cruz.
FAs this year were to fill out the depth. The Giants wanted some big names, but wisely stuck to their budget. I do agree he needs to have another solid draft, and that S is very weak right now.
Nowhere in the 2008-12 draft classes did they find even one player capable of developing into a starting NFL safety.
How about Kenny Phillips, 1st round pick in 2008? Great player, bad injury luck. He'd likely still be our starting safety. Or Chad Jones, 3rd round in 2013; might he be a starter if not for the car crash?
When these writers quotes "statistics":
Quote:
They made 38 picks during that time, and we can generously estimate that nine of those picks became NFL starters.
Without providing any perspective (i.e. what is the league average 12, 15, 18?) the statistics are almost useless. Lazy reporting.
I agree with the basic premise that there seem to be limited talent on the roster, but to not mention the odd injury luck (add David Wilson) is not giving the full story.
Nowhere in the 2008-12 draft classes did they find even one player capable of developing into a starting NFL safety.
How about Kenny Phillips, 1st round pick in 2008? Great player, bad injury luck. He'd likely still be our starting safety. Or Chad Jones, 3rd round in 2013; might he be a starter if not for the car crash?
When these writers quotes "statistics":
Quote:
They made 38 picks during that time, and we can generously estimate that nine of those picks became NFL starters.
Without providing any perspective (i.e. what is the league average 12, 15, 18?) the statistics are almost useless. Lazy reporting.
I agree with the basic premise that there seem to be limited talent on the roster, but to not mention the odd injury luck (add David Wilson) is not giving the full story.
That is pretty bad by Graziano. I see some people are now reminding him about KP.
Nowhere in the 2008-12 draft classes did they find even one player capable of developing into a starting NFL safety.
How about Kenny Phillips, 1st round pick in 2008? Great player, bad injury luck. He'd likely still be our starting safety. Or Chad Jones, 3rd round in 2013; might he be a starter if not for the car crash?
When these writers quotes "statistics":
Quote:
They made 38 picks during that time, and we can generously estimate that nine of those picks became NFL starters.
Without providing any perspective (i.e. what is the league average 12, 15, 18?) the statistics are almost useless. Lazy reporting.
I agree with the basic premise that there seem to be limited talent on the roster, but to not mention the odd injury luck (add David Wilson) is not giving the full story.
Eh he has had bad injury luck but you provided no info that other teams havent had worse.
Overall reese has drafted poorly. I doubt thats debatable. But i agree not as bad as graziano is inplying.
have to miss before you realize Graziano may have a point?
Many of us have been saying this for 2 years now.
Poor drafts force you to go into free agency and pay market price for the few top-tier guys. Then you have these other players on 1/2 year deals and if the player does well, you likely lose them to another team.
The guys the Giants just signed are guys who should have been able to be drafted and in the pipeline already over the last few years. Instead, they have to be plucked from other teams because we can't find them on our own.
The market should not be used to bail you out and build a roster. It should only be used to pickup a player here or there to complete the team you believe to have built up.
The fact the Giants had to sign 20+ new players last year because they had few players of their own to rely on or believe in was an indictment of the whole organization.
Hopefully an impact draft can get them back on the right course where we can continue to collect a good cost-controlled roster of players and eventually win.
I hate to agree with anybody from ESPN, but the fact of the matter is that Reese and company have had a lot of bad drafts.
2008 (First 3 picks were very solid but 7 years later they were all gone, then garbage.)
2009 (Nicks was it, unless you think Beatty was a successful pick which I don't anymore. And Reese totally failed to reinforce the Safety position which led to an in-season disaster there.)
2010 (JPP who looks like he's in his last year with the GIANTS now, the prematurely departed Linval Joseph, a pass on Chad Jones, and more nothings.)
2011 (Prince was it. Everybody else is gone four years later.)
2012 (Randle and Mosely are still here - for now.)
These were all bad drafts.
2013 wasn't any better either because they still don't know what they have in Moore and the third day was wasted again. (Nassib was 2 picks wasted on a guy who they don't want on the field and Taylor had an injury history and still can't stay on the field).
And his more recent veteran FA signings have been largely flops, too.
You simply cannot sustain an NFL team with this kind of draft record, let alone rebuild one.
This is a pivotal year for Reese, Ross, and the scouts both college and pro. They need to deliver big time or leave.
especially in regards to LB an OL, you can't discount injuries as a factor of why players from those drafts aren't contributing. Reese wasn't driving Chad Jones' car, for example.
Another factor would be coaching. Why isn't someone like Cooper or Behre ready to take over? Is it JUST talent, or do the Giants do a poor job developing players? Same with the OL. When do we look at the job Flaherty has done developing the likes of Brewer, etc.
I hate to agree with anybody from ESPN, but the fact of the matter is that Reese and company have had a lot of bad drafts.
2008 (First 3 picks were very solid but 7 years later they were all gone, then garbage.)
2009 (Nicks was it, unless you think Beatty was a successful pick which I don't anymore. And Reese totally failed to reinforce the Safety position which led to an in-season disaster there.)
2010 (JPP who looks like he's in his last year with the GIANTS now, the prematurely departed Linval Joseph, a pass on Chad Jones, and more nothings.)
2011 (Prince was it. Everybody else is gone four years later.)
2012 (Randle and Mosely are still here - for now.)
These were all bad drafts.
2013 wasn't any better either because they still don't know what they have in Moore and the third day was wasted again. (Nassib was 2 picks wasted on a guy who they don't want on the field and Taylor had an injury history and still can't stay on the field).
And his more recent veteran FA signings have been largely flops, too.
You simply cannot sustain an NFL team with this kind of draft record, let alone rebuild one.
This is a pivotal year for Reese, Ross, and the scouts both college and pro. They need to deliver big time or leave.
Well said.
There are a lot of folks here who just don't get it.
You sound like Reese, it's not hard to put a little bit of talent around an elite qb and win, unless of course your name is Jerry Reese and your football iq is in the negative
Reese's drafts from 2008 to 2012 would likely grade
I mean, if we didn't have Beckham coming on late in the season we'd have finished 3-13 or something like that.
The offense has potential, the defense is likely to struggle unless a miracle happens. The miracle would be Moore, Kennard, Behre and Taylor all coming on and playing major roles, above average play. That is asking a lot.
Not only have his drafts been mostly poor but so have his free agency moves. I like the Harris and Vareen moves but again he's buying dropouts to fix a seriously broken O-Line. He has already forced himself to spend his 2 top picks this year on the oline to come close to fixing it and we all know he won't do that.
So incredibly, he as neglected the o-line for a 3rd straight season when clearly it was the area in most need of several upgrades.
We've done nothing to change that yet and lost one of the few actual leaders we have on defense. Long way to go I guess, but these are band aid moves, we need an overhaul.
We've done nothing to change that yet and lost one of the few actual leaders we have on defense. Long way to go I guess, but these are band aid moves, we need an overhaul.
yup...long way to go. they do need an overhaul..it'll take time to hit the right mix of players and etc to get up to par.
Yet no one, not one peep about any interest in Nassib. You'd think someone out there would have at least placed a phone call to see if anyone's home.
I just called Jerry up - we're pals - and he confirmed that not a single fellow GM had phoned up about Nassib. So the basis of your post is correct. You're welcome.
why do people think Jerry Reese is deciding who the Giants draft? The owners and the head coach seem to have a lot more influence than the GM at this point.
RE: There are a lot of folks here who just don't get it.
that they have won 2 SBs in a decade and yet have not established perennial success/consistency over the course of that decade. Reese obviously knows a formula for winning but has not shown he can keep it up year after year. I think fans need to realize that we have been lucky, and I say lucky not as a slight to Reese, but lucky to have enjoyed 2 SB runs despite not being that perennial powerhouse. I think fans sometimes get upset about playoff appearances and W/L records and not realize the number of teams (SF, GB, IND, PIT, PHI) who are in the playoffs almost every year but have won less championships than we have, if any at all.
Pittsburgh isn't even really in the playoffs every year
From the time they won their last super bowl, they let their offensive line go to crap, struggled to rebuild it, finally fixed that last season, and now have to rebuild their defense.
First, we don't get anymore injuries than anyone else.
Graziano is a fucking jerkoff. Blasting the 08 draft is not only unfair it's moronic. Phillips, Thomas and Mario were good to very good players who are out of the NFL because of injury. Blast Reese for other shit, 08 ins't one of them.
They got two front line starters for the DL in 2010. Again, blast Reese for other failures, notably sticking too long with Snee, Diehl while drafting Wilson, Mosely, Brewer, Jernigan, Hosely, Austin, Simtim and Barden. There's your failure right there...
I still think all this is laughable if the Giants bounce back these next 2 seasons. EVery team hits the inevitable wall with maybe the Pats being the exception and they fucking cheat every way possible...If the Giants bounce back people bashing Reese will look very stupid. If they don't bounce back have at it...but people around here make it sound like the Giants have sucked for 5 years. They haven't. They have sucked for 2 straight seasons.
I hate to agree with anybody from ESPN, but the fact of the matter is that Reese and company have had a lot of bad drafts.
2008 (First 3 picks were very solid but 7 years later they were all gone, then garbage.)
2009 (Nicks was it, unless you think Beatty was a successful pick which I don't anymore. And Reese totally failed to reinforce the Safety position which led to an in-season disaster there.)
2010 (JPP who looks like he's in his last year with the GIANTS now, the prematurely departed Linval Joseph, a pass on Chad Jones, and more nothings.)
2011 (Prince was it. Everybody else is gone four years later.)
2012 (Randle and Mosely are still here - for now.)
These were all bad drafts.
2013 wasn't any better either because they still don't know what they have in Moore and the third day was wasted again. (Nassib was 2 picks wasted on a guy who they don't want on the field and Taylor had an injury history and still can't stay on the field).
And his more recent veteran FA signings have been largely flops, too.
You simply cannot sustain an NFL team with this kind of draft record, let alone rebuild one.
This is a pivotal year for Reese, Ross, and the scouts both college and pro. They need to deliver big time or leave.
2008 was a very good draft, it had four players who ended up starting, 3 who were solid multi-year contributors, and it also had 2 players who although didn't stick with the Giants hung around in the league for two years.
The reason that none of the players are still about is that they all got seriously injured just before their rookie contracts were up. Nothing a GM can do about that, it's just shit luck, but it's also far better they got those injuries before we spent a fortune extending them.
People always go on about 2008 as if it was some sort of terrible draft, it was the opposite.
we got a super bowl out of Nicks and a decent LT in Beatty. Fuck off with this shit.
Fans like to designate all the team's problems into one neat little compartment and crush whatever regime or entity they designate into their cross hairs. It's easier to just blast Reese and say his drafts have sucked but it's not that simple. A lot had to go right, luck included, for this team to win the amount of games they won from 2005-2011 and a lot had to go wrong, bad luck included, for this team to struggle late 2012-2014.
It's easy to say the drafting in 2012 led to today but it's more than that. PLayers had to get hurt. Draft picks had to fail. Draft picks had to get hurt. Good players had to see their careers end early. And maybe Reese and Coughlin were a little too loyal and stubborn, won't argue that, but the failed run from 2012 through 2014 took a lot of fail and bad luck. Graziano is just lazy and he sounds petty to me. I swear it sounds like the Giants didn't treat him the way he wanted and now he's got an axe to grind. Same shit with Gary Myers. HE's still a dick 30 years later. He was on WFAN today and went out of his way to say that Rolle was overrated. Fuck him. Go suck the Jets and Revis off for the next two weeks...their D is now the 85 Bears I see... the usual shit.
this is just a fact...any draft that yields two good starters is a good to even very good to possibly great draft. Don't believe me? Do the research yourself.
You don't see drafts that give a team 3-4-5 good to very good players come around very often.
he makes some fine points? HE's regurgitating the same shit BBI has been puking forth for the last few years. There's some truth in his points but it's just another lazy article that doesn't tell the whole story and he rarely has anything good to say about this franchise, granted they have sucked lately.
The Giants drafts have sucked from 08-2012 is not only false it doesn't tell the whole story. I could fart out a better point than this.
that this team had a bunch of core players basically disappear?
We went from a top 5 WR core, to one of the worst in less than 2 years.
Can you dispute that?
I'm not disputing that. But whenever certain folks bring it up, they're met with the "EVERY TEAM HAS INJURIES. THE GIANTS HAVE NO MORE INJURIES THAN ANYONE ELSE."
It's just funny to see that mindset all of a sudden disappear.
he makes some fine points? HE's regurgitating the same shit BBI has been puking forth for the last few years. There's some truth in his points but it's just another lazy article that doesn't tell the whole story and he rarely has anything good to say about this franchise, granted they have sucked lately.
The Giants drafts have sucked from 08-2012 is not only false it doesn't tell the whole story. I could fart out a better point than this.
The Giants have had some bad drafts in recent years. Looks like they *may* be finally starting to drafting well again, but that also remains to be seen. That is a big part of the reason the team is in the shape it is in.
if we had drafted a good starting RT in 2012 instead of Wilson, that would have given us 2 decent to good starters from that class in the RT and Randle. Lets say we also drafted a good SS in round 2 of the 2011 draft instead of Austin, again that would render that draft decent based on grabbing two good starters from one draft.
Does anyone honestly think this team is coming off a 10 win season if we have a good SS and a good RT in the fold right this very moment? Seriously? You really believe two decent players lift this team to 3-4 more wins last year or the year before?
This was a collective fail from the GM, coaching staff on down to Eli to the long snapper. The team got old, softer and battered the last few years and the product suffered. The team took on water and sank from 2013 through most of 2014--as 2014 progressed into December the product showed some signs of progress, thanks mainly to the some younger players and Eli. Hopefully the ascension continues in 2015.
add some beef to the OL and focus on rushing the ball for 2000 yards or over 4 YPC. We need a clutch running game. IT's been by far the biggest glaring weakness on this team since late 2012. Everyone talks about the D or the special teams or Eli...the running game was abominable for most of the last 3 years. Fix it at all costs.
I do agree that the last couple of years, it appears that the drafts have been better. Now, it's still too soon, but the early returns are looking fine. Just hope that trend continues and we finally get some luck in regards to losing young players due to injury so early in their careers, as drkenneth mentioned.
I won't sit here and proclaim that the progression we saw offensively in 2014 will continue in 2015 but it could happen. THis team is pretty young across the board.
Just to show others how difficult it is here is the Ravens 2011 & 2012 drafts
11-J. Smith, T. Smith, J. Reid, T. Doss, C. Brown, P. McPhee, T. Taylor, A. Allen
12-C. Upshaw, K Osemele, B. Peirce, G. Gradkowski, C. Thompson, A. Jackson, T. Streeter, D. Tyson
Here is GB 2011
D. Sherrod, R. Cobb, A, Green, D. House, DJ Williams, C. Schladerhoff, DJ Smith, R. Elmore, R. Taylor, L. Guy
12-N. Perry, J. Worthy, C. Hayward, M. Daniels, J. McMillen, T. Manning, A. Datko, BJ Coleman
Not much better
Just because guys stay on a team does not mean they are drafted good players. J. Reid is no different than Brewer. GB draft 4 DB and none start and their secondary is still bad
It is brutally hard to find players throughout
Reese issue is not the top 2 rounds - they are as good as any. His back end is just as hit or miss as others. His 3rd rd picks have produced consistently little - that is his negative on the draft.
that is all the explanation you need. All the commentary on how great Reese drafting is BS. Seems to be good at picking receivers and stunt DEs and that is it.
The Patriots have 10 players on their roster from the same period. I do think they are somewhat better players.
One problem a lot of people seem to have is comparing draft picks to what you hope for, rather than what is typical.
Okay so is that saying that like BB, TC should build a winner out of these guys OR it is still a hit to Reese that unlike the Pats he can't field a great team whether the draft is good or not? Someone is not doing something.
Most elite teams are only as good as their coach and great players. Health and depth are important but it's a star and head cosch driven league. Eli and coughlin and a few others had bad years in 2013. Eli improved dramatically in 2014 thanks to the new system and addition of Beckham but many of the others didn't until the year was nearly over.
The Patriots have 10 players on their roster from the same period. I do think they are somewhat better players.
One problem a lot of people seem to have is comparing draft picks to what you hope for, rather than what is typical.
Okay so is that saying that like BB, TC should build a winner out of these guys OR it is still a hit to Reese that unlike the Pats he can't field a great team whether the draft is good or not? Someone is not doing something.
No, it is saying that I suspect Reese's performance is probably about average. I just picked the Pats because I am reasonably familiar with their roster so it was easy. The draft is that much of a crapshoot, and the average NFL career is about 3 years. Add in free agency, and I suspect that is the normal number to have on your roster for 3-7 drafts ago is something like 8-10 players.
The Giants only losing seasons since Eli's rookie year, are also the two seasons when the Giants lost more starts to injury than any other team, according to Football Outsiders. And by sizable, almost freakish margins. 18 last year and 38 in 2013. In contrast, in 2012 and 2011 the difference between the most injured team and the second most injured team was 1 (2011) and 9 games (2012).
than the 6-10 team we just watched last season. So, someone tell me how we turn this team into a playoff contender with...
1. A few rookie draft picks
2. The potential to sign some veterans who get dumped before the season starts.
Please don't tell me that we will get injured players back because we will have a new crop of injured players next season. It happens to us every year.
We keep bringing up the injury problem as if it was some run of bad luck. I'm not one to believe in luck. I'm starting to think there is something in our conditioning or training process making us more susceptible to injuries.
"Holding five of the top 100 premium picks, this was an important draft for the NY Giants franchise. That they used three of those premium picks (and four of their first six picks overall) to address the obvious void in their passing game must raise a cautionary red flag in the mind of any objective observer. Did the Giants allow a dire need to dictate their draft? Having two extra premium selections is not an opportunity that comes along very often. Only time will tell whether Nicks, Sintim, Beatty, Barden and Beckum are names Giants fans are cheering five years from now. For better or worse, this draft will be viewed as a critical factor in the Giants' failure or success over the seasons to come."
Before this FA period, Indy had 9 players from their 2008-2012 drafts KC 10, Sf 10, Pittsburgh 10. The only team I found with more than 10 was GB with 15. Didn't bother to look up how many of them left in FA this year for any of those teams.
Dallas has 8 (that accounts for this year's FA losses). In short, 8 players left from those drafts hardly seems like an outlier.
consisting of Kenny Phillips (1), Terrell Thomas (2), Mario Manningham (3), and Jon Goff (5) stunk is a clueless dolt. Whiffing on Kehl (4) and Robert Henderson (7) is small potatoes compared to the 4 hits, and all accomplished draftng last in each round post the SB victory. JR even made up for the whiff on Henderson by signing Wallace Gilberry, a UDFA DE that is still in the league earning snaps...
Graziano is a tool.
I would have preferred Rolle and Thurmond to what has been signed. Suh only counts 6.1 in y ear one of his contract and not having JPP after this season could have been the money used for Suh in year 2.
I would have preferred Rolle and Thurmond to what has been signed. Suh only counts 6.1 in y ear one of his contract and not having JPP after this season could have been the money used for Suh in year 2.
Maybe they don't want to pay Eli. Everyone just assumes that is the case.
I would have preferred Rolle and Thurmond to what has been signed. Suh only counts 6.1 in y ear one of his contract and not having JPP after this season could have been the money used for Suh in year 2.
I would argue that Harris is an elite special teams guy who can play serviceable snaps at WR if needed.
The half full guys, Let's see how it plays out before we judge and the Half empty guys.
I'm in the half empty guys at this moment. We get rid of the athletes who were supposed to make it with us and replace them with new athletes who might do better, casillias and Thomas and newhouse. It's great if it works but bringing in several new guys because your drafts suck is not the answer.
The half full guys, Let's see how it plays out before we judge and the Half empty guys.
I'm in the half empty guys at this moment. We get rid of the athletes who were supposed to make it with us and replace them with new athletes who might do better, casillias and Thomas and newhouse. It's great if it works but bringing in several new guys because your drafts suck is not the answer.
Newhouse and Thomas have both lost starting jobs multiple times with there prior teams during there short NFL careers ... I am not optimistic nor understanding these moves
Graziano is a tool.
True. Reese is Fine. Last year he was Phenomenal in FA and the Draft. Sadly Most of his signings got injured....
This team always gets injuries. Not his fault
BINGO! Don't shoot the messenger. Not only miss the playoffs, but "the wheels are coming off" 16-24 in their last 40 games, many of them embarrassing blowouts.
Injuries is why we missed the playoffs last year. Radio was still coaching playing Kiwi at DE. Ect That's not Resse's fault.
Quote:
BUT- There a lot of career ending injuries in the bunch as well.
Graziano is a tool.
True. Reese is Fine. Last year he was Phenomenal in FA and the Draft. Sadly Most of his signings got injured....
This team always gets injuries. Not his fault
Really? We're all of those signings guys with healthy histories before they got here? Beason, Andrews, Jennings come to mind as having track records of being injured seriously and often
Agreed and such an integral part of this team with such an immobile QB.
Quote:
To look at this.
The half full guys, Let's see how it plays out before we judge and the Half empty guys.
I'm in the half empty guys at this moment. We get rid of the athletes who were supposed to make it with us and replace them with new athletes who might do better, casillias and Thomas and newhouse. It's great if it works but bringing in several new guys because your drafts suck is not the answer.
Newhouse and Thomas have both lost starting jobs multiple times with there prior teams during there short NFL careers ... I am not optimistic nor understanding these moves
Giants figure they can coach up these JAGs. They give them a fair shot then finally release them. They bring in new JAGs and now we wait to see how it plays out. We give them benefit of doubt since we won in the past.
Everyone is correct here.....Our record sucks since our last super bowl and many blow out losses. But we do have trophies.....
Judged that way, Reese's regime is good but not great -- and let's face it, two Super Bowl championships cover a multitude of sins.
They've used a lot of draft picks and free agent dollars to acquire offensive lineman and OL is still the team's biggest flaw. That's damning.
1. 2008 was 7 years ago. You can't retroactively look back that far and say that just because a certain number of players aren't on the team from those years means that the GM is an idiot.
2. The past 2 drafts have been very solid, and of course, Graziano refuses to bring up this point. Because of the crapshoot nature, its nearly impossible to "draft well" every single year. Teams will go through periods of bad drafts and then pick it up with a few home runs.
3. Phillips and Thomas were pro-bowl caliber players and excellent draft picks by Reese. Nicks basically won us the Super Bowl in 2012. Rather than addressing this, he chooses to say that they just aren't on the team anymore, which is somehow Reese's fault.
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The fact that we haven't been able to find a late round guard in all these years is a major failure. Every team in the league has a late round guard starting for them. Serious problems with the offensive line scouting.
Agreed and such an integral part of this team with such an immobile QB.
That would be Pat Flaherty. As stated before and witnessed on Finding Giants, position coaches are an integral part of late round picks and UDFA. From what I seen Reese is even asking scouts and coaches questions about why they like these guys in episode 4. Reese and Mara leave right after the draft.
that is the only reason. the question is how long do you get a pass because you won super bowls a few years back?
That's long gone now. Now GM and coach need more consistent results. You can't keep riding the SB wins and have the team going backwards. I have no issue with front office and coach getting ripped.
FAs this year were to fill out the depth. The Giants wanted some big names, but wisely stuck to their budget. I do agree he needs to have another solid draft, and that S is very weak right now.
How about Kenny Phillips, 1st round pick in 2008? Great player, bad injury luck. He'd likely still be our starting safety. Or Chad Jones, 3rd round in 2013; might he be a starter if not for the car crash?
When these writers quotes "statistics":
Without providing any perspective (i.e. what is the league average 12, 15, 18?) the statistics are almost useless. Lazy reporting.
I agree with the basic premise that there seem to be limited talent on the roster, but to not mention the odd injury luck (add David Wilson) is not giving the full story.
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Nowhere in the 2008-12 draft classes did they find even one player capable of developing into a starting NFL safety.
How about Kenny Phillips, 1st round pick in 2008? Great player, bad injury luck. He'd likely still be our starting safety. Or Chad Jones, 3rd round in 2013; might he be a starter if not for the car crash?
When these writers quotes "statistics":
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They made 38 picks during that time, and we can generously estimate that nine of those picks became NFL starters.
Without providing any perspective (i.e. what is the league average 12, 15, 18?) the statistics are almost useless. Lazy reporting.
I agree with the basic premise that there seem to be limited talent on the roster, but to not mention the odd injury luck (add David Wilson) is not giving the full story.
That is pretty bad by Graziano. I see some people are now reminding him about KP.
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Nowhere in the 2008-12 draft classes did they find even one player capable of developing into a starting NFL safety.
How about Kenny Phillips, 1st round pick in 2008? Great player, bad injury luck. He'd likely still be our starting safety. Or Chad Jones, 3rd round in 2013; might he be a starter if not for the car crash?
When these writers quotes "statistics":
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They made 38 picks during that time, and we can generously estimate that nine of those picks became NFL starters.
Without providing any perspective (i.e. what is the league average 12, 15, 18?) the statistics are almost useless. Lazy reporting.
I agree with the basic premise that there seem to be limited talent on the roster, but to not mention the odd injury luck (add David Wilson) is not giving the full story.
Eh he has had bad injury luck but you provided no info that other teams havent had worse.
Overall reese has drafted poorly. I doubt thats debatable. But i agree not as bad as graziano is inplying.
Many of us have been saying this for 2 years now.
Poor drafts force you to go into free agency and pay market price for the few top-tier guys. Then you have these other players on 1/2 year deals and if the player does well, you likely lose them to another team.
The guys the Giants just signed are guys who should have been able to be drafted and in the pipeline already over the last few years. Instead, they have to be plucked from other teams because we can't find them on our own.
The market should not be used to bail you out and build a roster. It should only be used to pickup a player here or there to complete the team you believe to have built up.
The fact the Giants had to sign 20+ new players last year because they had few players of their own to rely on or believe in was an indictment of the whole organization.
Hopefully an impact draft can get them back on the right course where we can continue to collect a good cost-controlled roster of players and eventually win.
2008 (First 3 picks were very solid but 7 years later they were all gone, then garbage.)
2009 (Nicks was it, unless you think Beatty was a successful pick which I don't anymore. And Reese totally failed to reinforce the Safety position which led to an in-season disaster there.)
2010 (JPP who looks like he's in his last year with the GIANTS now, the prematurely departed Linval Joseph, a pass on Chad Jones, and more nothings.)
2011 (Prince was it. Everybody else is gone four years later.)
2012 (Randle and Mosely are still here - for now.)
These were all bad drafts.
2013 wasn't any better either because they still don't know what they have in Moore and the third day was wasted again. (Nassib was 2 picks wasted on a guy who they don't want on the field and Taylor had an injury history and still can't stay on the field).
And his more recent veteran FA signings have been largely flops, too.
You simply cannot sustain an NFL team with this kind of draft record, let alone rebuild one.
This is a pivotal year for Reese, Ross, and the scouts both college and pro. They need to deliver big time or leave.
Another factor would be coaching. Why isn't someone like Cooper or Behre ready to take over? Is it JUST talent, or do the Giants do a poor job developing players? Same with the OL. When do we look at the job Flaherty has done developing the likes of Brewer, etc.
2008 (First 3 picks were very solid but 7 years later they were all gone, then garbage.)
2009 (Nicks was it, unless you think Beatty was a successful pick which I don't anymore. And Reese totally failed to reinforce the Safety position which led to an in-season disaster there.)
2010 (JPP who looks like he's in his last year with the GIANTS now, the prematurely departed Linval Joseph, a pass on Chad Jones, and more nothings.)
2011 (Prince was it. Everybody else is gone four years later.)
2012 (Randle and Mosely are still here - for now.)
These were all bad drafts.
2013 wasn't any better either because they still don't know what they have in Moore and the third day was wasted again. (Nassib was 2 picks wasted on a guy who they don't want on the field and Taylor had an injury history and still can't stay on the field).
And his more recent veteran FA signings have been largely flops, too.
You simply cannot sustain an NFL team with this kind of draft record, let alone rebuild one.
This is a pivotal year for Reese, Ross, and the scouts both college and pro. They need to deliver big time or leave.
Well said.
You sound like Reese, it's not hard to put a little bit of talent around an elite qb and win, unless of course your name is Jerry Reese and your football iq is in the negative
There is little impact talent on this offense.
I mean, if we didn't have Beckham coming on late in the season we'd have finished 3-13 or something like that.
The offense has potential, the defense is likely to struggle unless a miracle happens. The miracle would be Moore, Kennard, Behre and Taylor all coming on and playing major roles, above average play. That is asking a lot.
So incredibly, he as neglected the o-line for a 3rd straight season when clearly it was the area in most need of several upgrades.
Guys like Nicks, Phillips, Wilson, the OL got old real fast...Terrell Thomas, Chad Jones.
Is this really that hard to grasp? I'm not saying there weren't misses, but it's as if some of you don't know how the draft works.
What team could over-come the injuries that the Giants have had?
We are currently in one of the weakest era's ever for starting QB's. Teams are trading for NICK FOLES and going after guys like Hoyer.
Yet no one, not one peep about any interest in Nassib. You'd think someone out there would have at least placed a phone call to see if anyone's home.
yup...long way to go. they do need an overhaul..it'll take time to hit the right mix of players and etc to get up to par.
I just called Jerry up - we're pals - and he confirmed that not a single fellow GM had phoned up about Nassib. So the basis of your post is correct. You're welcome.
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You are just figuring that out now?
Lol. I think today is worse than normal.
You don't think this team has had of core players fall off a cliff? Really?
Nicks was a top 5 WR in 2011. He's a pubic hair away from being out of the league.
Kenny Phillips knee
David Wilson
Snee's career ended early
Chad Jones
They got two front line starters for the DL in 2010. Again, blast Reese for other failures, notably sticking too long with Snee, Diehl while drafting Wilson, Mosely, Brewer, Jernigan, Hosely, Austin, Simtim and Barden. There's your failure right there...
I still think all this is laughable if the Giants bounce back these next 2 seasons. EVery team hits the inevitable wall with maybe the Pats being the exception and they fucking cheat every way possible...If the Giants bounce back people bashing Reese will look very stupid. If they don't bounce back have at it...but people around here make it sound like the Giants have sucked for 5 years. They haven't. They have sucked for 2 straight seasons.
2008 (First 3 picks were very solid but 7 years later they were all gone, then garbage.)
2009 (Nicks was it, unless you think Beatty was a successful pick which I don't anymore. And Reese totally failed to reinforce the Safety position which led to an in-season disaster there.)
2010 (JPP who looks like he's in his last year with the GIANTS now, the prematurely departed Linval Joseph, a pass on Chad Jones, and more nothings.)
2011 (Prince was it. Everybody else is gone four years later.)
2012 (Randle and Mosely are still here - for now.)
These were all bad drafts.
2013 wasn't any better either because they still don't know what they have in Moore and the third day was wasted again. (Nassib was 2 picks wasted on a guy who they don't want on the field and Taylor had an injury history and still can't stay on the field).
And his more recent veteran FA signings have been largely flops, too.
You simply cannot sustain an NFL team with this kind of draft record, let alone rebuild one.
This is a pivotal year for Reese, Ross, and the scouts both college and pro. They need to deliver big time or leave.
2008 was a very good draft, it had four players who ended up starting, 3 who were solid multi-year contributors, and it also had 2 players who although didn't stick with the Giants hung around in the league for two years.
The reason that none of the players are still about is that they all got seriously injured just before their rookie contracts were up. Nothing a GM can do about that, it's just shit luck, but it's also far better they got those injuries before we spent a fortune extending them.
People always go on about 2008 as if it was some sort of terrible draft, it was the opposite.
Fans like to designate all the team's problems into one neat little compartment and crush whatever regime or entity they designate into their cross hairs. It's easier to just blast Reese and say his drafts have sucked but it's not that simple. A lot had to go right, luck included, for this team to win the amount of games they won from 2005-2011 and a lot had to go wrong, bad luck included, for this team to struggle late 2012-2014.
It's easy to say the drafting in 2012 led to today but it's more than that. PLayers had to get hurt. Draft picks had to fail. Draft picks had to get hurt. Good players had to see their careers end early. And maybe Reese and Coughlin were a little too loyal and stubborn, won't argue that, but the failed run from 2012 through 2014 took a lot of fail and bad luck. Graziano is just lazy and he sounds petty to me. I swear it sounds like the Giants didn't treat him the way he wanted and now he's got an axe to grind. Same shit with Gary Myers. HE's still a dick 30 years later. He was on WFAN today and went out of his way to say that Rolle was overrated. Fuck him. Go suck the Jets and Revis off for the next two weeks...their D is now the 85 Bears I see... the usual shit.
You don't see drafts that give a team 3-4-5 good to very good players come around very often.
Probably alittle bit of both.
You're right. We should just select players that never get hurt and/or get into car accidents.
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Hires the scouts. The scouts are obviously not helping this team.
You're right. We should just select players that never get hurt and/or get into car accidents.
Every team has injuries, though. At least that's what I read here all of the time.
The Giants drafts have sucked from 08-2012 is not only false it doesn't tell the whole story. I could fart out a better point than this.
We went from a top 5 WR core, to one of the worst in less than 2 years.
Can you dispute that?
We went from a top 5 WR core, to one of the worst in less than 2 years.
Can you dispute that?
I'm not disputing that. But whenever certain folks bring it up, they're met with the "EVERY TEAM HAS INJURIES. THE GIANTS HAVE NO MORE INJURIES THAN ANYONE ELSE."
It's just funny to see that mindset all of a sudden disappear.
The Giants drafts have sucked from 08-2012 is not only false it doesn't tell the whole story. I could fart out a better point than this.
The Giants have had some bad drafts in recent years. Looks like they *may* be finally starting to drafting well again, but that also remains to be seen. That is a big part of the reason the team is in the shape it is in.
Does anyone honestly think this team is coming off a 10 win season if we have a good SS and a good RT in the fold right this very moment? Seriously? You really believe two decent players lift this team to 3-4 more wins last year or the year before?
This was a collective fail from the GM, coaching staff on down to Eli to the long snapper. The team got old, softer and battered the last few years and the product suffered. The team took on water and sank from 2013 through most of 2014--as 2014 progressed into December the product showed some signs of progress, thanks mainly to the some younger players and Eli. Hopefully the ascension continues in 2015.
11-J. Smith, T. Smith, J. Reid, T. Doss, C. Brown, P. McPhee, T. Taylor, A. Allen
12-C. Upshaw, K Osemele, B. Peirce, G. Gradkowski, C. Thompson, A. Jackson, T. Streeter, D. Tyson
Here is GB 2011
D. Sherrod, R. Cobb, A, Green, D. House, DJ Williams, C. Schladerhoff, DJ Smith, R. Elmore, R. Taylor, L. Guy
12-N. Perry, J. Worthy, C. Hayward, M. Daniels, J. McMillen, T. Manning, A. Datko, BJ Coleman
Not much better
Just because guys stay on a team does not mean they are drafted good players. J. Reid is no different than Brewer. GB draft 4 DB and none start and their secondary is still bad
It is brutally hard to find players throughout
Reese issue is not the top 2 rounds - they are as good as any. His back end is just as hit or miss as others. His 3rd rd picks have produced consistently little - that is his negative on the draft.
One problem a lot of people seem to have is comparing draft picks to what you hope for, rather than what is typical.
One problem a lot of people seem to have is comparing draft picks to what you hope for, rather than what is typical.
Okay so is that saying that like BB, TC should build a winner out of these guys OR it is still a hit to Reese that unlike the Pats he can't field a great team whether the draft is good or not? Someone is not doing something.
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The Patriots have 10 players on their roster from the same period. I do think they are somewhat better players.
One problem a lot of people seem to have is comparing draft picks to what you hope for, rather than what is typical.
Okay so is that saying that like BB, TC should build a winner out of these guys OR it is still a hit to Reese that unlike the Pats he can't field a great team whether the draft is good or not? Someone is not doing something.
No, it is saying that I suspect Reese's performance is probably about average. I just picked the Pats because I am reasonably familiar with their roster so it was easy. The draft is that much of a crapshoot, and the average NFL career is about 3 years. Add in free agency, and I suspect that is the normal number to have on your roster for 3-7 drafts ago is something like 8-10 players.
1. A few rookie draft picks
2. The potential to sign some veterans who get dumped before the season starts.
Please don't tell me that we will get injured players back because we will have a new crop of injured players next season. It happens to us every year.
20 years.
"Holding five of the top 100 premium picks, this was an important draft for the NY Giants franchise. That they used three of those premium picks (and four of their first six picks overall) to address the obvious void in their passing game must raise a cautionary red flag in the mind of any objective observer. Did the Giants allow a dire need to dictate their draft? Having two extra premium selections is not an opportunity that comes along very often. Only time will tell whether Nicks, Sintim, Beatty, Barden and Beckum are names Giants fans are cheering five years from now. For better or worse, this draft will be viewed as a critical factor in the Giants' failure or success over the seasons to come."
I stand by that analysis.
Link - ( New Window )
Dallas has 8 (that accounts for this year's FA losses). In short, 8 players left from those drafts hardly seems like an outlier.
Totally clueless, or agenda driven, whatever.