So where are "All the Holes?"

We lost a few games last year from Specials alone, imo

We've been 22nd or worse the last 5 years, including absolute worst by HUGE margins the last 2 years (2013 saw us as the most injured team in history). You figure if injuries are a matter of luck, and this team became middle of the pack in terms of injuries next year, that would be such a massive improvement it would definitely give us 2-3 more wins.

That being said, while I don't like that we haven't been able to get any "good" free agents, it's better to not overpay for anybody, so Reese/Chris Mara are doing the right thing even if it "hurts" in the short term.

Safety is a huge hole. If they didn't think it was, they wouldn't have went after McCourty so hard. The guys we have now ARE the depth. We have a huge hole at the position. Letting Rolle walk though, IMO, was the right move at that money.

Beason cannot be counted on at such an important position in a Spags defense. We saw how important that position was with Pierce.

I'm not as down on DE as many here (but its still a question mark) and I think te CB position is fine. But we legitimately have major question marks at 5 of the 11 starting positions (FS, SS, MLB, DE, DT) on defense along with depth issues. And those questions are right up the middle from front to back. We have a lot of work to do. I do though, think Spags will be able to hide deficiencies in talent much better than Fewell.

On offense, I think we need to continue to build the OL but I think it's closer to a finished quality product than many here do. Other than that, I think the offense will be very good this year and will win us a lot of games by itself.

We can fill depth in with June 1st and training camp cuts. Again, as you say, health is a huge factor. I know all teams suffer injuries, but these last few years have been epic proportions. Somewhere its got to even out. (Fingers crossed...)

breakdown.

They need, in order of priority, 2 safeties, one OL, one DT and one DE.

The latter three could probably come in the draft, but they need to add veteran safety help. You can't trot out Cooper Taylor, Nat Berhe and rookies.

On offense. That's either RG or RT. Whither one Pugh isn't playing. Otherwise we are pretty stacked on O.

Defense we have holes at starting Safety. Other then that I think we are just fine at LB with Beason, Kennard, McClain, Thomas, Casillas, Herzlich. DE with JPP, Moore & I really like Ayers. Think he will be a good starter this year although I'd like one player good pass rusher to help the rotation. Probably need a better DT also. So essentially I see a need at 4 starting positions & then just depth.

Well thought out. I believe the biggest holes are one starting OL and 2 starting S. WR is questionable until we see how Cruz goes. I am also concerned about Ayers as he did not have surgery, so I wonder if he's going to be healthy. If not, we do have another hole at DE.

Ron Parker, Red Bryant and either Michael Johnson, Kroy Biermann. I'd be very happy.

In comment 12182842 Big Rick in FL said:

Quote:

Ron Parker, Red Bryant and either Michael Johnson, Kroy Biermann. I'd be very happy.

Rick, help me out on this..But wasn't Red Bryant cut by the Seahawks several years ago before signing his FA contract? If I'm remembering correctly, wasn't it because of decline in play? Or do you remember it being a money issue?

How do we know that the team made a big run at McCourty? Did JR. or someone else from the team announce it? Or is relying on the same beat writers we eviserate for not doing their job all year round? Just wondering?

Ayers may not be ready. Hole.

We don't have a second starting DT. Hole

We need two starting safeties. Holes.

There's no true WILL on the roster. Hole.

LG or RT. Hole.

Complimentary TE. Hole.

So that's 7 holes.

Cruz might not be 100%. But Randle had 900 yards last season. Harris might be able to help in case Cruz is taking his time.
But name the teams (other than the Packers) who have a top 3 better than OBJ, Cruz and Randle.

The problem is how many starting positions did the Giants really need an upgrade at. I think you can identify atleast 3 maybe more. To continue building the O-line as Reese says requires atleast one new starting caliber player. DT could use an upgrade next to Hankins. DE can use an upgrade opposite JPP, perhaps that comes from the current roster, we shall see. TE definetly needs an upgrade, a run blocking TE Safety as you identified is a big hole that will require a new starter, actually it needs two. How many drafts have we seen 3 starters or more come out of that draft? Its possible, but not very likely to happen. If the Giants do in fact go WR in round one, than your left looking for starters in rouynd 4 and 5. Not good.

LG Jones starting anywhere on the O-line is a scary proposition. The John Jerry re-signing doesn't alleviate anyones fears. Big hole at LG right now.

S could use two starters. Behre may be forced to fill one of those spots. You could count this as two holes.

DT Jenkins is slipping and Bromley is a work in progress. Having 'bodies' at a position doesn't mean there isn't a hole. There is.

DE Moore is the wild card. he could be an effective disruptor. So far the coaching staff doesn't trust him. Wynn/Ayers are rotational players. A 3rd DE is needed.

SLB McClain shouldn't be a starter. He's a good backup. JT Thomas? This is a hole until someone proves they are a playmaker and not a caretaker.

Paraphrasing JR...until he does it you can't bank on VC being the same player. Randle has been ok at times. Harris/Parker/Ogletree? Maybe not a 'hole' but we could use an upgrade at WR

TE Donnell is a starter with upside. Fells is a JAG. Could use an upgrade.

So not all of these positions are devoid of players. Obviously we will field a team. Many of them have serious concerns. LG and S are a mess.

Crater is more like it.

Is going to be JT Thomas III and he is going to do a damn fine job there. Suits his skillset.

2nd TE isn't really a hole you worry about. Daniel Fells will probably be back.

So that leaves 5 positions if you don't think Ayers will be healthy or Moore can't start. I believe Moore will be a good player under Spags & Ayers will be healthy for the start of the season.

Ayers might not be ready-Hole
I might win the Lottery-Millionaire

cant do any strength training til after OTAs, the injury he suffered has a long ways to go for recovery...I'd almost treat him like Cruz as expecting him to be the same player in '15 might be a stretch.

The Giants were 6-10 last year. Almost every position needs to be upgraded... not "all" but most.

The Secondary is thin at CB and bare at S as of now

No clear 3rd or 4th CB. Some of the guys there may be able to step up but there's no one who has a proven record of it.

S- Neither guy slated there has even started a game.

LBs. Kennard promising but unproven. Beason really? Zero chance he starts all 16 games. McClain or Herz? A jag and a special teamer back up

DL maybe the best group but another body at DE would be nice AS JOP is not signed long term. Jenkins is old. Bromley unlroven. Also an upgrade on Kuhn needed as is he a NT or a DT?

Offense

Eli. The saving grace. Nassib meh but he's cheap

OL is crappy and thin. They still sucked after another high pick Not one projected started can be said to be above average or someone perceived as top tier. None. Beatty is the most over rated player in the history of os site. Guy had 4 holds in a game and was lauded for it by some. And now he's 30. Pugh takes a huge step back and given a total pass. Assuming he's a long term RT is dangerous after last year. Schwartz played 2 games. Richberg not one game at C. They just re upped Jerry for God's sake. People still want a WR? Insane

WR- OBJ Randle and Cruz could be insane if Cruz can be even solid. Washington and Hardis not bad. And they just signed Harris. Maybe they go WR High but that's a want by the Madden Fantasy crowd

RB/FB set actaully w Vereen Jennings woo woo

TE Donnel and who?

This roster Has real depth and quality issues They can might be a 10 win team with a great draft and maybe a few other solid FA or we could easily see another losing season. The only postion group that has been seels to have been upgraded is RB.

In comment 12182848 jeff57 said:

Quote:

Ayers may not be ready. Hole. We don't have a second starting DT. Hole We need two starting safeties. Holes. There's no true WILL on the roster. Hole. LG or RT. Hole. Complimentary TE. Hole. So that's 7 holes.

This doesn't even take into account a lack of depth. Nothing has been done to even slightly improve the OL. The safety position could rival 2009. LB still mediocre.

Last year I thought it would take two off seasons to be a playoff team. Looking like three now.

We were 6-10 last year, we have holes everywhere. We need JPP, Eli and Prince to re-structure and free up some space. That said, he's my take.

Safety - Really need a player. They were right not to bring back Rolle, but we don't have anyone currently. Hopefully Brown re-signs so at least we have 1 guy with starting experience. Maybe Collins is our guy in RD1?

LB - They are not great...on paper. Beason, McClain and Kennard are decent players though. I hope they know what they are doing on the guys they brought in.

DL - We need a DT and a young DE. I hope Shelton is there at #9.

OL - We need a starting guard and more depth overall. Need to draft one high and a bunch more. The Jerry re-signing was the right move. Need someone who can play when Schwartz gets hurt.

WR - Need another young one, cannot count on Cruz being the same as he was at this point. Randle hasn't proven he deserves another contract (this is a big year for him).

TE - Donnell is the guy apparently. And, I think he has great potential. I'd like to have another guy though.

RB - We are set

QB - We are set.

Specials - We signed a big time specials guy. Our K and P are good. I think we are ok here.

I totally agree with your assessment. It is my belief that had the Giants stayed healthy they would have competed better in the NFC East.

They are younger and more athletic and they have 8 more young guys to add.

It s not a hole until the guy playing the position proves they are inadequate and that includes safety and DT.

and you will have your answer.

are in the front office, as per usual.

Even with a low injury year...assume 3 to 4 more holes at the oft injured skill positions like wr, dl CB and Rb.

Then we have a team with a lot of bad past drafts.

A FA Safety Dt De OG LB that are just solid and we can turn to the differentiating question:

In a playoff game what unit besides Eli is too much for the other team?

In 2008 that was the DL and 2012 that was the Wr.

Think we need both depth and a playoff differentiating unit

Just stop Nicks and Cruz. Whoops there is one playmaker too many

and as JohnB said, this team, which hasn't received a big number of upgrades at this early stage of the offseason went 6-10 last year. Fewer injuries isn't likely to be the difference between 6 wins or 10, they NEED to fill holes with BETTER TALENT.

what I call "Optimum Positive If" to feel good about their roster right now. OPI. Using OPi, Beason will stay healthy. Dennard will be consistent. Bromley will emerge. Prince will stay healthy. The young safeties are players. Pugh returns to form. Schwartz stays healthy. They find a blocking TE. Cruz makes it most of the way back. Generally, the team suffers, say, 8 season-ending IRs, God forbid, none of these include Eli , Beckham or the 2 starting corners. OPI, man. It's a bitch to live by & then you die. But it is the sole source of optimism right now.

they need to still swap out a number of bodies for better talent, as this roster had a significant number of players on it the past two seasons that probably didn't truly belong on an NFL roster.

There's a lot of work to do.

indeed.

CB (no depth)

Saftey (no nothing)

LB (did you say Beason? Beason? I mean, c'mon, are you SERIOUSLY thinking Beason has the body left to make it through a 16 game season at a level that makes him an impact player?) - And then beyond that is mediocre with zero depth.

DE (JPP who? EXPECTING JPP to play the way he did his first 2 years in the league is just wishful thinking)

DT (SUH who?)

WR (CRUZ who?)

TE (WHO?)

OL (Schwartz? I mean seriously Schwartz? Beatty going to dominate this year? That expectation would be based upon ?) Center? Because Richburg played so many snaps there last year? Pugh at (where does he play anyway)?

Holes? Nah. Hey, pass me that swiss cheese for my sandwich, would ya?

You are the Big Hitter Da Lama. Thanks.

Have the past three years taught you nothing? This team IS NOT competitive and this roster is STILL void of talent throughout, especially in the OL, TE, LB and S units.

Is "depth" even a real thing anymore?

... I still think their offense can be the best in Giants history IF they get themselves another big time threat at WR which, with Beckham, would make them unstoppable on offense (OK, they'd have to shore up the OL a bit)

But - the defense is totally broken and is NOT going to be fixed this year. So, I'd push all my chips into the center of the table and gamble everything on Offense - and if they do, I think they become one of the most dangerous teams in football (can't believe I am saying that since I've always believed that DEFENSE is what counts during the playoffs).

We have 22 holes and everyone sucks. It's just how New Yorkers are. We have thousands of people on this board who would make better gm's than JR and there is no arguing with them about it. For such a storied and successful franchise, we have a lot of dickbags as fans.

You what's really great about the NFL once the season starts everybody is 0-0, from then on it's in the hands of the Gods. We have sucked for two years as team, coaches and players but we have hope OBJ has come. No idea what the rest of the team will do but I expect OBJ to make plays which make the wins or losses seem inconsequential.

to Ralph C.

"Spags will be our wild card on D..Looking forward to see how this group of Giants perform under his aggressive style."

This is what I'm thinking too. I'm not sure we can evaluate our players on D at this point since the entire D seemed so discombobulated at times last year. Was it all the players, or was it at least partly the "system"?

.

No, I think pretty much any football observer worth their salt can identify a team that cannot run or stop the run. This team is void of talent in so many areas, but is also short on physicality throughout.

I just don't get it.

I understand we have needs at S, DL, & LB...But we have 2 stud CBs, JPP, Hankins, Moore, Kennard.

Spags is a big improvement over Fewell. I don't get the doom and gloom.

In comment 12182955 outeiroj said:

Quote:

We have 22 holes and everyone sucks. It's just how New Yorkers are. We have thousands of people on this board who would make better gm's than JR and there is no arguing with them about it. For such a storied and successful franchise, we have a lot of dickbags as fans.

Well, you can think of yourself as a dickbag if you want, but I've lived and breathed the Giants for 50 years and one thing I've always been is objective. I've lived through the 70s when they sucked. Lived through the magical turnaround in the 80's. And then 2007 and 2011.

But I'm objective. Love them when they have things going the right way (the way they do with the offense right now) but I don't suck Reese's dick just because I'm a Giants fan. He sure has hell knows more than I do. But take a look at his draft of 2009. Go ahead and suck his dick for that performance (and try to swallow because if you're gonnna do it, at least do it right - and somebody deserves to swallow something for that performance with 10 picks total and 5 in the top 100).

Guess what? Their defense still sucks. They improved by building the OL and running game.

You don't think Dallas would kill for DRC, Prince, JPP?

We are in a position get a starter at OL at #9 or #40. The running game will improve.

In comment 12182988 drkenneth said:

Quote:

Guess what? Their defense still sucks. They improved by building the OL and running game. You don't think Dallas would kill for DRC, Prince, JPP? We are in a position get a starter at OL at #9 or #40. The running game will improve.

Our defense sucks too... so why do they want our players?

it looks like we'll be fighting with the Skins for the basement. Usually I'm optimistic.

Do you not think DRC is a top CB? Is JPP not a top DE?

The "THE DEFENSE IS A DISASTER" is just plain stupid.

The difference between 6 wins and 10 wins isn't much.

on this roster. Almost all of us (as well as TC and Mara) said we need to improve the OL's ability to generate a running game, as well as develop a defense that can stop the run. SO FAR, and that's all we can say, we've done neither in FA. That's a huge concern.

Both units are the sum of their parts, and the units did not do their jobs even halfway decently last year.

Schwartz can offer us some hope for improvement on the OL, but Reese has said several times that he suffered a "major" injury, and when he says that he seems to be hinting that Schwartz might not return at full strength, at least to start the season.

Similarly, Bromley can hopefully offer some help at DT, if he shows the same improvement in his second year that LJ and Hankins did.

But both of the above are question marks, and even with a healthy Schwartz we need another starting offensive lineman. And then we need at least one starting FS, a healthy MLB, and more depth on the DL (Spags loves to throw fresh bodies out there situationally).

That's a lot of holes, and they all can't be filled in one draft. We need to sign a few starters in FA if we are to address the majority of these issues.

Excellent post, and I think we need to recognize the DE positions needs upgrades pronto.

BB'56...really?

Three years out of the playoffs...declining record each year...getting regularly blown out...losing to really bad football teams...having to fire both coordinators to appease the masses...


It's not just the injuries.

This team has been gutted due to bad personnel moves.

Even though we haven't added a Safety or starting caliber OL, this team is far from set. I will say it is kind of concerning that we signed 2 new LB and re-signed Herzlich yet put no resources into the safety position....total head scratcher.

We are 1 starting Guard short. We had the worst running game in the NFL last year and you can't get there without "holes" on the OL.
Games were lost last year because of a lack of pass rush. Yes we ranked high in the NFL in sacks last year but who could forget Romo's 10 seconds to throw play that lost us the game.
We have no Safetys with starting experience on the roster and we need at least 2 more just to have enough depth!
Our Line Backing corp is really below average. Beason is the best of the bunch and he just can't be counted on to stay healthy. This is another reason why we were in the bottom against the run.
We have very little depth at DT. Can't deny, it's true.
We were 6-10 last season and thus far have done little to improve it. We signed some nice special teams guys and a great 3rd down back and I'm happy to have them all, but there are holes in a number of places on this roster and we have done almost nothing to put quality players in those holes. Can't do it all in the draft, we're just going to have to keep our fingers crossed thT we can get a good starter on OL in the draft and that Spaggs can scheme around the rest.

holes at LG, S, inline TE, LB and rotational pass rusher. They could also really use another CB.

We have no safety, no LBs outside of Kennard who you realize are on the field, no DE opposite JPP. And that's just on D!

In comment 12183019 JonC said:

Quote:

Excellent post, and I think we need to recognize the DE positions needs upgrades pronto.

Thanks, Jon. And I agree about DE. I'm also worried about MLB, as I'm hoping we can add better depth there so that if Beason goes down again we're not left with McLain as our only option there. I could see us drafting a guy (perhaps someone like Stephone Anthony) earlier than some people have him rated just for that eventuality.

No team in football has every all- pro and very few with above average players at every single position across the board.

This current team has some very strong players at the premium impact positions. The biggest issues last year were 3-fold: injuries, defensive system and learning curve with new offense.

Giants were the #1 for players games missed due to injury. We all have spoken ad nauseum about Fewell and how his system was not necessarily a good fit for our personnel. Lastly, gelling on the offense played a factor in a number of games early on.

All 3 of these things should turn for better next year and that in itself should provide a substantial positive impact. Injuries just by virtue of the obscenely large number sustained should normalize. I strongly believe Steve is going to breathe life and hope and re-vitalize this D as they will be playing with passion and attacking (which is what many D players love to do). Finally this offense is in the second year of MacAdoos system which should help everyone especially the OL.

Honestly, you can always upgrade a roster almost anywhere.Nevertheless I think enough pieces are here to be a playoff team next year. The only position that really bothers me right now is Safety. They need to do something there. I am not giving up on Reese yet though, he has been great at getting guys later in FA when the market frenzy has calmed down a bit.

and holes...that is the nature of the league in the Salary Cap era. Safety is not a hole...it is an unknown. Cruz is now an unknown. Can the team make it thru a season without significant injuries to key players is an unknown.

Like others have said...the difference between 6-10 and 10-6 is not that great. If the offensive line continues to mature, if Cruz is close to what he was, if the unproven recent draftee's can contribute and the team stays healthy.....they will challenge for the NFCE title.

is right - the bigger holes exist with the brass and the coaching staff. This management team is in a three year "slump" assembling the right parts, and the head coach continues to demonstrate he can't create the right culture for consistent winning. Alas, too many people don't understand the concept of a trend and refuse to only look forward with false hope because the Jints are a "class organization...", "Eli is still elite...", "we've been plagued with bad calls...", "we're unlucky with injuries...", etc and this new era of mediocrity will be magically changed this year...

The best thing that Jints Central can do is completely reboot and start with new coaching and management...

not even close. After the ones, we have a big drop off and we have key positions that we are not in great shape. We have tons of holes in the roster.

The good teams have a few and the bad teams have lots.

It's been chronicled by many here. The Giants have A LOT of holes at very important slots. And the OL doesn't have one even above average player.

The lack of depth last year. We lost 22 players to IR. It's not like they were shitty players either.

Cruz, Schwartz, Prince, Beason, Ayers, Thurmond, McBride, Jacquian, Kiwi, Marcus Harris, Jernigan. Most of them were starters & Thurmond/McBride were CBs 3 & 4.

Other players missed games that didn't end up on IR.

Odell - 4
Pugh - 2
Jennings - 7
Kennard - 4

So 15 players at the very minimum that were on or would have been on our opening day roster. Which is almost 1/3 of the roster. 11 of them were starters. So half of our starting offense & defense missed at least 2 games. Most of them missed more then that.

If John Jerry is the starter I think he will do a much better job this year. The whole interior was a mess and I'm sure that hurt him. Walton was terrible and Richburg was playing a position he shouldn't have been. Hopefully Pugh continues to play how he did later in the season, Richburg at his natural position and Schwartz being a huge upgrade over Walton it should really help John Jerry. I really think a line of Beatty-Schwartz-Richburg-Jerry-Pugh is significantly better then last year. The Giants could still upgrade the RG or RT position and we would be completely set on Offense. I think our O is going to be insanely good this year.

Eli, Jennings, Williams, Vereen, Odell, Cruz, Randle, D. Harris, M. Harris, Donnell, Beatty, Pugh, Schwartz & Richburg is a very good offense on paper.

There are still plenty of good DTs on the free agent market, a few solid DEs that would work in rotation. Safety is what worries me if we can't at least get Ron Parker.

It looks like the front office believes in the roster here too.

Reese has said the Giants are in pretty good cap shape and will be able to do what we need to do.

I trust with some better fortune with health and a defensive system that utilizes our players best attributes will make a significant impact next year.

bw in dc is correct in that we need to step back and look at the forest and not the trees. This team is in a downward spiral. If not for Eli and Beckham, this could be the worst team in the NFL. We're wasting Eli's best years.

Now I'm not sure if coaching was the issue (I had no problem with Gilbride, but I wasn't a fan of Fewell)...and I like Coughlin.

But there are talent issues. We're a soft football team.

In comment 12183059 AnnapolisMike said:

Quote:

and holes...that is the nature of the league in the Salary Cap era. Safety is not a hole...it is an unknown. Cruz is now an unknown. Can the team make it thru a season without significant injuries to key players is an unknown. Like others have said...the difference between 6-10 and 10-6 is not that great. If the offensive line continues to mature, if Cruz is close to what he was, if the unproven recent draftee's can contribute and the team stays healthy.....they will challenge for the NFCE title.

Agreed. I worry about safety though as they are so green and we have barely seen flashes. This is a much more important position than TE. Anything is possible and they could see something there that I don't but I'd much prefer to add a proven vet with some range back there.

It felt that way after the end of the 2012 season, and the dreadful 2013 season. The 2011 title run masked a lot of things.

On paper the roster looks good IMHO except for o-line (we need a G and plenty of depth) and safety help. Luxury items this year include DT, DE, LB, and TE.

and that doesn't mean I think we're in great shape b/c our depth is questionable in many areas. However, with a solid o-line our offense can be very good. The defense I'm less clear about b/c I don't know how they will response to Spags.

Impact players on O - OBJ, Eli, Cruz
Impact players on D - Hankins, JPP, Amukamara, DRC

Solid role players on O - Vereen, Pugh, Beatty, Jennings, Donnell, Richburg, Schwartz, Harris, Randle
Solid role players on D - Jenkins, Ayers, Beason, Kennard, McClain

Current holes - FS, SS, OL, DL

Point blank, they need more impact guys, especially those that help in the way of attacking the LOS. The Cowboys are the class of the division and their offense was as good as any last year - a lot of that was because you could say they have 2-3 impact players on their OL. Their entire offense was lethal and with less time on the field their defense was at least passable. Antrel Rolle played 50+ straight games for this team, many of which as a captain, and he needs to be replaced. Linval Joseph was not effectively replaced last year. Kenny Phillips was supposed to be replaced by Stevie Brown/Will Hill and that hasn't worked out. The pass rush has not been replenished since the departures of Tuck/Osi. Most importantly Chris Snee anchored the OL as a pro bowler for 10 years. When they needed big yards they ran behind him and he was a top 35 pick for a reason. They need to get an impact player on the OL in the worst way, and that's why I agree with Sy and have no problem picking someone who may be a guard at #9. If I could draft Chris Snee II there I would in a heartbeat.

In comment 12182878 LauderdaleMatty said:

Quote:

The Secondary is thin at CB and bare at S as of now No clear 3rd or 4th CB. Some of the guys there may be able to step up but there's no one who has a proven record of it. S- Neither guy slated there has even started a game. LBs. Kennard promising but unproven. Beason really? Zero chance he starts all 16 games. McClain or Herz? A jag and a special teamer back up DL maybe the best group but another body at DE would be nice AS JOP is not signed long term. Jenkins is old. Bromley unlroven. Also an upgrade on Kuhn needed as is he a NT or a DT? Offense Eli. The saving grace. Nassib meh but he's cheap OL is crappy and thin. They still sucked after another high pick Not one projected started can be said to be above average or someone perceived as top tier. None. Beatty is the most over rated player in the history of os site. Guy had 4 holds in a game and was lauded for it by some. And now he's 30. Pugh takes a huge step back and given a total pass. Assuming he's a long term RT is dangerous after last year. Schwartz played 2 games. Richberg not one game at C. They just re upped Jerry for God's sake. People still want a WR? Insane WR- OBJ Randle and Cruz could be insane if Cruz can be even solid. Washington and Hardis not bad. And they just signed Harris. Maybe they go WR High but that's a want by the Madden Fantasy crowd RB/FB set actaully w Vereen Jennings woo woo TE Donnel and who? This roster Has real depth and quality issues They can might be a 10 win team with a great draft and maybe a few other solid FA or we could easily see another losing season. The only postion group that has been seels to have been upgraded is RB.

CB : were ok with drc,prince,mcbride and brown as top 4 with fenner as #5 buyt could use 1 more in the draft.

Safety is a big hole needing 2 guys

LB were ok , needing 1 more guy max

DL we could use 1 more guy at either De or DT with DT being more vet type with de thru the draft.

OL we need 1 more starter type either thru fa or draft with 1 more solid backup being preferred

wr is ok for this year depending on if they trade randle. 1 more guy for the future couldn't hurt


TE we could use another solid guy either thru fa or draft.

RB were good.

In comment 12183076 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

bw in dc is correct in that we need to step back and look at the forest and not the trees. This team is in a downward spiral. If not for Eli and Beckham, this could be the worst team in the NFL. We're wasting Eli's best years. Now I'm not sure if coaching was the issue (I had no problem with Gilbride, but I wasn't a fan of Fewell)...and I like Coughlin. But there are talent issues. We're a soft football team.

Perhaps we played 'soft' defensively due to Perry? Let's see what Steve can do here first with this roster.

"Safety, that may be the hole"...was the serious? Both safety spots are glaring holes. Could behre and taylor become solid NFL starters this year? Sure. But that is a very rose colored assumption for two mid to late round picks with no real starting experience.

The CFL guy is coming in to lock down either guard or center spot? Sure, assuming a CFL player is a quality NFL starter from Day 1 is a middle of the road assumption.

And Jon Beason is locking down the MLB spot? The question isn't if he gets hurt, it is when and who takes the spot for the rest of the season. The guy is always injured, and last I checked, still aging.

As Eric mentioned above, this team has not been competitive the past few years. Getting marginal talent back healthy this year does not suggest playoffs to me.

I hope things work out the way you envision it BB, but everything in your analysis is virtually best case scenario.

about the Ravens, Steelers, heck maybe even the Pats over the last few years. DEFINITELY the Cowboys. Many thought they were falling off a cliff at some point. 1 offseason can change a lot.

The offensive line has been neglected by management for the entire duration of the time we had Chris Snee. They started investing in it in his last seasons with Pugh, Richburg, & Schwartz. They need to continue investing in it and we may be surprised at the returns on those investments as they mature. Especially if they can add an "anchor" type player to plug in for next season as they Cowboys did with Martin last year.

OG/OT (depending on Pugh) - you can't count on a rookie from the fn CFL to start. That's just pure blind homerism.

WR - No guarantee Cruz gets back to being Cruz

TE - we don't have a decent second TE signed

DE - we don't have a starting LDE on the roster.
DT - Jenkins is old and was horrible last year, Bromley is unproven

2 safeties - Behre is unproven. Cooper is unproven and can't stay healthy. Both are low draft picks. Counting on both to start is incredibly foolish.

CB - we lost our third best CB.

A better question may be what holes you think the Giants filled to move them from a 6-10 team to a contender.

In comment 12183141 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

about the Ravens, Steelers, heck maybe even the Pats over the last few years. DEFINITELY the Cowboys. Many thought they were falling off a cliff at some point. 1 offseason can change a lot. The offensive line has been neglected by management for the entire duration of the time we had Chris Snee. They started investing in it in his last seasons with Pugh, Richburg, & Schwartz. They need to continue investing in it and we may be surprised at the returns on those investments as they mature. Especially if they can add an "anchor" type player to plug in for next season as they Cowboys did with Martin last year.

Better luck with injury, more player friendly defensive system, and less learning curve for new offense will pay large dividends in itself. Giants believe this too otherwise we'd likely see alot more players being cut and other players brought in.

as we've seen. Special Teams to for that matter, and we know those are always going to be a year to year adventure.

Both enormously determine field position, time of possession, and the overall difficulty of the job expected of everyone else on the team. The jobs of the RB's and QB become infinitely harder when the OL isn't winning the POA, and goes without saying for the WRs as well. The defense gets tired, put in more difficult positions, and subject to more plays. Look at the Eagle game last year, where the defense actually for once held up admirably and kept the Giants in the game through the 3rd quarter.

Fix the OL, get a little bit of health luck, and stop giving away yards on ST and this team will have a big bounce back.

a couple of big names, then a bunch of "Meh", and then as many holes as big names.

right now it's an 8-8 roster. after the draft maybe 9-7. with our coaching maybe we can get 10-6 out of it, and that's optimistic as fuck.

our strengths? WR (if Cruz comes back healthy)? QB? CB? What else?

I think we have some upside on the DL but we were terrible against the run last year and didn't do anything to improve there. Our LBs were terrible last year and we didn't sign any impact guys. Our safetys were terrible last year and we lost our best safety without replacing him. Our OL was a liability all year and we havn't done anything to improve it.

We still have some cap room and the draft to improve so it makes sense to wait before panicking, but the way things look right now, we're basically going to need to cross our fingers and hope ODB and Eli play elite every week and carry us to wins.

McClain was a starter on the Ravens before coming to the Giants but now he's only a bench player at 29. Isn't that a bit over the top? Right now, on paper, the Giants have the best group of linebackers in the last five or six years. (I know that is not saying much to be polite)

There are question marks and issues on both sides of the ball with an outright hole at safety until more veterans are brought in. Considering who is left, Safety is likely to be a question mark when it is all said and done.

But like tight-ends last year, not all questions marks are answered negatively. It will be the job of the coaching staff to work around the problems and minimized the opposing teams ability to exploit those weaknesses.

Last year the offense did that. The year before it was the defense with better health (I consider Will Hill to be a self inflicted injury) who overcame issues to be solid. Let's see what happens this year

the existence of OBJ has created a false sense of positive in some from what this team was last year. This team was not good. Without the play of OBJ, can you imagine how worse things would feel right now? That is the lens one should use when evaluating this roster.

the team that hung 30 plus on the Rams in their house is the worst roster in football?

In comment 12183269 Headhunter said:

Quote:

the team that hung 30 plus on the Rams in their house is the worst roster in football?

Fantastic analysis. Who knew the season was only 1 game long?

We have fringe starters at TE and DE so you either need depth or a starter there.

Depth at OG, OT, CB

Its Swiss cheese, man.

Part of me believes you made a business decision to be as negative as possible to drive traffic to the site. Nothing draws more views than when you post. Kind of like you admitted after the Rams game that you should continue to pick them to get blown out in your pregame

On this board is hysterical . Cowboys fans were saying the same things last year . No defense shipped out there best pass rusher and no names on Defense and they won 12 games . Good Coaching brought out the best of their players on Defense. Right now in our division we have a team without a guy who won the rushing title and all of there best players on Defense gone in free agency and another contender who still has a big question mark at QB and WR . No reason not to be right back in the mix.

Ditto

1. Rolle. What does that tell you about the roster.

All pro teams need eternally optomistic fans like you.

But, just as last off-season, I think you are looking through those rose colored glasses.

This team has holes everywhere I look. They have warm bodies but some of them are unproven (Brent Jones and Nat Berhe, both of whom I have high hopes for) and many are mediocre at best.

And at Safety, they don't even have enough warm bodies because Taylor can't stay healthy and there's no depth. They may pick up one or two more significant additions in free agency, but the draft is going to make or break this team this season.

Another point I want to make is that Jason Pierre-Paul's attitude and desire to play well is going to go a long way towards this team's success or failure this year. What if he decides to sit out or simply dog it for a while because he's pissed at them?

And although a much easier 2015 schedule than last season may allow this team to get back to about .500 football, this team is still nowhere near competitive with the NFL's best. It still has more holes than ten pounds of Swiss cheese.

I stand by my OP, await improvements to be effecuated and we'll see at the end of next season who over or underestimated the Giants' plight..

VOLCANO - Safety. We are in desperate need of finding a starting quality center fielder at the latest in the draft. Maybe a trade? Teams don't cut these players. If we can find one the lava flow will stop. Box players can be found; starter may already be on the team.

HOLE - Offensive Line. A premium pick either ROT or LOG will put on a nice iron on patch. Look at the bright side, this was once a volcano.

Defensive Tackle - Hankins only 1 tech on the team. If we are serious about stopping the run, we need another. Good news vets can be found to patch.

RIP - Defensive End. We have pieces & questions. Draft pick that can play both pass & run can go along way in making sure injuries don't turn this into a massive hole.

WORN - Linebacker. The under the radar FA signings, best group we have had in awhile.

Recievers. The injury to Cruz really hurt. This would otherwise be a terrific group even with are underwhelming TE. FO will make provisions.

SOLID - QB,RB, ST, & Corners.

I have no doubt we'll field 11 on O and 11 on D this year. The problem is they won't look any better than the 11 and 11 we fielded last year. Adding Vereen and Harris, at best, cancels out losing Rolle without a replacement. The others we signed were no better than below-replacement level backups. Doesn't look like there's much left in FA to upgrade the roster and you can, at best, hope for a couple of rookie starters to immediately upgrade it.

Pretty bleak. Looks like another 6-10 season.

And did the OP count on the CFL project who hasn't played a pro snap to fill our hole at guard? Lol, I had to do a double take on that one. That and the "can live with" language wrt the weak units/positions. Sounds like you can live with 6-10.

TEAR not RIP

In comment 12183338 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

I stand by my OP, await improvements to be effecuated and we'll see at the end of next season who over or underestimated the Giants' plight..

Again, what upgrades have you seen that make you confident we'll go from a 6-10 team to a good team? Its got to be something more than just blind faith.

Didn't mean to come across as a lighthearted response to your OP. Agree things are not as dire as they appear to be. My only panic is at FS. OL can be turned into a plus. We drafted Snee in the second. As to depth or weaknesses, ever team has them. It's what the NFL is now. Thanks for your post, you made a valiant effort to talk people off the ledge.

In comment 12183387 chris r said:

Quote:

In comment 12183338 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: I stand by my OP, await improvements to be effecuated and we'll see at the end of next season who over or underestimated the Giants' plight.. Again, what upgrades have you seen that make you confident we'll go from a 6-10 team to a good team? Its got to be something more than just blind faith.

I listed what we have as we speak..The FA and draft upgrades to come..Even if not to satisfaction, I listed a group of men, if healthy by season's start, that can hold their own in a competitive realm...HEALTH IS BY FAR my most important concern

56,

I agree with in the injury dept. I have ZERO faith in our ability to stay healthy.

Safety, I agree is a hole. LB is serviceable and I think with Reese as our GM, I don't see a big time splash signing there.

WR and TE, while I don't see a hole has some questions marks. I am not sold on our WR corps. TE I want more productivity or at least consistency there with pass catching.

OL I am weary about. If Coughlin wants balance then I don't see the group good enough to sustain their blocks in the running game to be good enough to execute that balance philosophy. So that worries me. In terms of pass blocking, I think we can do better, but I am more concerned about run blocking only because we want to use a balance philosophy.



Special teams I have no faith in. I don't think I ever had faith in so not a loss.

Detroit and first Philly..

If we're healthy last year, OBJ from the beginning, Cruz the entire year, Jennings the entire year, Schwartz the entire year, a Non-cripple DRC, A Prince the entire year, we're instantly competitive imo..

So 6 win season, could have been 9-10 win season..

I've seen nearly 900 Giants games in my life..I don't delude myself..I didn't delude myself from 1964-1980 and during the Fassel years

starting WLB and two starting S.


It's more than just a hole :P

and JPP holds out our starting DE's are Wynn and Moore.

Last season against any good or decent defense we couldn't run the ball at all. All our yards came during the week part of the schedule, then we looked pretty good. So this tells me our schemes were fine, but against good DL's and LB's we were losing the physical 1:1 battles. This needs to be improved if we are going to win again. I do think people put way to much stock in how our OL played against the weak teams.

Guard and safety.

I am fine with Berhe and Taylor competing, though I'd feel much better with a reliable vet next to them, and no not Stevie Brown.

Will Pugh slide in or will he stay at RT? If he stays, there is a glaring hole between Beatty and Richburg. If we expect Beatty to hold down Eli's blind side we need to put someone next to him that he can be fully relied upon.

I am not against the idea of drafting La'el Collins and plugging him in next to Beatty, or Collins at RT and Pugh inside.

I think we still need some depth pieces on the O-Line and either another guard or tackle who can start.

safety needs some help. Before Cooper Taylor went donw last year i was very impressed by him. He was all over the field and always around the ball. I know it was only pre-season and he has some serious work to do but im ok with him as a backup to begin and work into a starting role. We need at least 2 more though, Both starter caliber.

Another DT is definaely needed and another DE would be nice bu I wouldnt call it a hole by any means.

Some LB Depth is needed if were gonna go forward with Beason, Kennard, Mcclain and Thomas. Maybe not after I read that. I expect Thomas to play all 3 LB spots and take over for Beason if he misses time. Nevermind, with Thomas Casillas and Herzlich backing up we looking pretty solid there.

We're not far away from being back on top. Fix the O-line and the top end of the secondary and were good to go

Lets Go Giants

I read all of the posts and am puzzled when I read that we need a DE to play opposite JPP. I have seen no reason in the past 3 years to make me feel that JPP is the answer. Since his first season, short bursts of greatness have been overshadowed by long spells of nothing. In 2014 he padded his stats against inferior OT`s. He did little against the good ones. How many times in the Shehawks game was he sucked in by the ball fake, leaving his side of the field wide open. The defense had to have watched film for days about just that play. I love JPP for what he tries to do, but come on JR, do not waste 13.5mil on a good to fair DE.

1) who would replace him?
2) how many minutes would he have lasted on the open market
3) outside of JJ Watt, name the better all around DE's in the League

I'll wait

In comment 12183076 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

bw in dc is correct in that we need to step back and look at the forest and not the trees. This team is in a downward spiral. If not for Eli and Beckham, this could be the worst team in the NFL. We're wasting Eli's best years. Now I'm not sure if coaching was the issue (I had no problem with Gilbride, but I wasn't a fan of Fewell)...and I like Coughlin. But there are talent issues. We're a soft football team.

+1 on all points

In comment 12183492 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

Detroit and first Philly.. If we're healthy last year, OBJ from the beginning, Cruz the entire year, Jennings the entire year, Schwartz the entire year, a Non-cripple DRC, A Prince the entire year, we're instantly competitive imo.. So 6 win season, could have been 9-10 win season..

BB56 - Schwartz the entire year?
2011 Schwartz was signed with the Panthers and spent the year on injured reserve. They let him go in FA after that.

2012 Schwartz signed with Minnisota. Played one year. According to his own article, he was injured in 2012 and Minnosota didn't make any offer to keep him for 2013.

So in 2013 he signed with KC. Got injured again. KC wasn't interested in signing him for 2014.

2014 Giants gave him a BIG contract. He was injured in 2014.

Four teams in four years. None of the first three were interested in keeping him. Injured four years in a row. And this is a key in your analysis for 2015?

claim. He may have had an injury, but had a solid enough year to make him a top priority of the Giants and many here...

His loss was big..

Anything else?

with about 6 of those wins against QB's no longer in the league. 1-7 vs Cowboys & Eagles. Can't run, can't stop the run. So far have added no OL's or DL's. What holes?

everyone that ever had an injury in the NFL is sure to be injured again. Now if you were breaking the same foot 3 years in a row, you might have a chronic issue. The stupidity to assume someone who had injuries due to contact, like a guy falling on the back of linemans leg and predicting he is going to get hurt again say by suffering a knee injury or shoulder injury confirms the idiocy of some of you

In comment 12183739 Headhunter said:

Quote:

everyone that ever had an injury in the NFL is sure to be injured again. Now if you were breaking the same foot 3 years in a row, you might have a chronic issue. The stupidity to assume someone who had injuries due to contact, like a guy falling on the back of linemans leg and predicting he is going to get hurt again say by suffering a knee injury or shoulder injury confirms the idiocy of some of you

Or the fact the Panthers let him ... then the Vikings let him go ... then the Chiefs let him go ... oh wait - he's going to save the Giants. What a joke. Gimme a break. He's nothing but fodder. If he was so great, three teams in a row wouldn't have let him go. And he wasn't making big dollars either. Keeping him was cheap. They just didn't want him.

You want to argue he's not good, go ahead, I'm talking about a guy they got clipped and broke a leg is guaranteed to suffer an injury of some kind this season. The logic is breathtaking

On offense and defense. What have we done to change this?

In comment 12183805 JerseyCityJoe said:

Quote:

On offense and defense. What have we done to change this?

Wondering if they are banking on Bromley at the #3. Banking on Schwartz and Jerry would be insane and hoping for two of top three picks (including the #1 is for the OL.

There are other positions that are "question marks" (meaning we may have a player but it is unclear) up to "holes" (meaning we need a player). These are DT / DE / WLB / OL / TE.

Some good discussion and threads to help one consider.

I am slowly coming to the conclusion that when one evaluates a management team...One way to do it is look at whether they get and sustain talent in the most important jobs. I really don't care about how good the accounting staff is when it comes time to evaluate a company whose lifeblood is R&D.

For the Giants those two jobs are the QB and the DL. We remember that in 2008 we were told that fatigue late season given the lack of depth of the DL.

If those two positions/units are above NFL average we have time to patch holes.

An adequate OL and wr and db comes next...but in a 4-3 based team...steady locked in depth rotation and two or three long term ( NFL term for 2-3 years) bedrock better than average and motivated players is essential. No they cannot plan on injuries. Yes the most critical job for a GM in a team with a 4-3 defense is to get the QB and DL solidified and stable for a three years.

On that essential the GM job for NE, GB, Indy and the Giants is more easily focused...get the next most important unit besides QB right. Viola. ..A good chance for playoffs 3 out of 4 year's.

Reese may get excuses for injuries and mistakes in drafting ....All GM have them.

There are too many holes on the Giants and three years of stuck in Neutral plugging 7 holes on top of a dwindling DL.

To arrive at the beginning of a year with one above average player in Hankins and all else in question, expensive flux, what ifs or below average ....is a crater than even all other holes filled does not give the stability to be a sustained winner even if luck gets a playoff game once every three years.

The FO is the whole....and awful job putting the team in such a jam that outer end optimism has to be found by torturing data and torquing up the odds.

Watched every available Giants Game since 1958...and this recent FO performance seems tp be joining the other low points. Imho. At this time from what I sense. Acknowledge it's football and things can change. ...but imho that would be luck and or outer end despite the FO.

Awful performance

The FO is the Hole

Compelling points, imv.

the Front Office. Perry Fewell gone so need to find next victim. TC for a while, but he is coming back. So Jerry Reese welcome to being tied to the whipping post. from in Reese I Trust to everything is shit and it's all your fault JR. The new target with Quinn as the reliable backup

it's not just filling them, it's also finding right players to fill them.

But no matter this is where we are. In these discussions, the differences comes down to what we define as holes vs. weakness. Actually we're not that far off from each other,nor off from the FO based on their rumoured attempts.

If we define hole as position devoid of sufficient completion for starting positions, we all agree FS. NYG tried to sign McCourty.

BB56 in his OP has tried to show we have many weaknesses but not holes. Weakness being additional players required in order to move the team forward. Giants linked to both DE & DT.

OL does any one really doubt one is taken in the first or second?

and page.

In comment 12183873 Bill2 said:

Quote:

Some good discussion and threads to help one consider. I am slowly coming to the conclusion that when one evaluates a management team...One way to do it is look at whether they get and sustain talent in the most important jobs. I really don't care about how good the accounting staff is when it comes time to evaluate a company whose lifeblood is R&D. For the Giants those two jobs are the QB and the DL. We remember that in 2008 we were told that fatigue late season given the lack of depth of the DL. If those two positions/units are above NFL average we have time to patch holes. An adequate OL and wr and db comes next...but in a 4-3 based team...steady locked in depth rotation and two or three long term ( NFL term for 2-3 years) bedrock better than average and motivated players is essential. No they cannot plan on injuries. Yes the most critical job for a GM in a team with a 4-3 defense is to get the QB and DL solidified and stable for a three years. On that essential the GM job for NE, GB, Indy and the Giants is more easily focused...get the next most important unit besides QB right. Viola. ..A good chance for playoffs 3 out of 4 year's. Reese may get excuses for injuries and mistakes in drafting ....All GM have them. There are too many holes on the Giants and three years of stuck in Neutral plugging 7 holes on top of a dwindling DL. To arrive at the beginning of a year with one above average player in Hankins and all else in question, expensive flux, what ifs or below average ....is a crater than even all other holes filled does not give the stability to be a sustained winner even if luck gets a playoff game once every three years. The FO is the whole....and awful job putting the team in such a jam that outer end optimism has to be found by torturing data and torquing up the odds. Watched every available Giants Game since 1958...and this recent FO performance seems tp be joining the other low points. Imho. At this time from what I sense. Acknowledge it's football and things can change. ...but imho that would be luck and or outer end despite the FO. Awful performance

Man, what a post. Definitely has me thinking (much more negatively).

OL does anyone not doubt a pick is made in the first or second.