he plays on all special team units…he covers kicks also is a gunner or can be on punt coverage. He is also a decent reciever much better than MR tyree ever was and def better than JJ
It is a one year deal and if he shows he can be more than a special teams player maybe Years 2 and/or 3 with a modification to bring down same immediate base money
"17. Help me understand the Dwayne Harris deal. The Giants gave a good return man (ninth in punt-return average, 13th in kickoff-return average last year) a five-year, $17.5-million deal, with an out-of-whack $7.1 million guaranteed. (Well, it’s all out of whack.) The Giants did a good deal with Shane Vereen, to give Eli Manning one of the best receivers out of the backfield in football. But to give a slightly better than average return man $8 million over the next two seasons? That’s called cap money burning a hole in your pocket."
It is a one year deal and if he shows he can be more than a special teams player maybe Years 2 and/or 3 with a modification to bring down same immediate base money
Gonna be interesting to see if we get bang for buck. To be a good return Harris needs to be impacting games.
I assume the Giants have looked at the beneath
- Yards per punt return above average
- Yards per kick return above average
- Yards per punt covered below average
- Yards per kick covered below average
- Yards per route run above average
and they think in amongst all of that Harris can kick in a certain number of yards a game on a regular basis. I wonder what that number is. I think it needs to be around 50 to make this a good signing.
It is a one year deal and if he shows he can be more than a special teams player maybe Years 2 and/or 3 with a modification to bring down same immediate base money
So it's like a Brandon Myers deal?
The Myers deal unless he became Jimmy Graham was never going to be more than a 1 year deal. There is potential for Harris to last longer if he plays well but he doesn't have to be a stud to be worth the money. If a comparable player in Free Agency costs $2.5 Million to have a guy who knows the system especially if he has shown flashes may be worth the extra $400K you are paying Harris
The jump from year one to year two is pretty standard cap/cash management procedure. After that, the salaries are essentially flat. That suggests to me that the Giants have a definite role in mind for Harris, put a clear value on that role, and are confident he can perform well in it for at least two years (which explains the guaranteed money); but anything he does outside that "box" is basically gravy.
One other important, team-friendly aspect of Harris's contract: no roster bonuses due at the beginning of the League year. That means, once Harris becomes cuttable in 2017, the team has total freedom to keep him through the summer at no cost, and postpone a decision until final cutdowns.
Depends how it is structured though. I think $4 Million of that is signing bonus which gets prorated and the other guarantees could be in roster bonuses in years 4 and 5
It is a one year deal and if he shows he can be more than a special teams player maybe Years 2 and/or 3 with a modification to bring down same immediate base money
Not quite. It's far from a one year deal with the bonuses and guarantees.
"after 2015" wouldn't fit in subject line, but I put right above the numbers.
I just question was it really necessary to jump from $975K to $3 million per season in order to lure him away from Dallas. He wasn't that dynamic of a returner last year and has always been an afterthought in their offense.
Depends how it is structured though. I think $4 Million of that is signing bonus which gets prorated and the other guarantees could be in roster bonuses in years 4 and 5
Most of the remaining guaranteed money is his year 1 and about 70% of his year 2 base salaries. Small workout bonuses ($25k) each year.
JT Thomas's deal is similar.
Both are essentially guaranteed 2 year deals, though if Thomas completely flops this year they could cut him in 2016. Casillas's deal is basically a 1 year "prove it" deal. If he surprises, he could be a bargin for the rest and if he completely flops or they find valuable depth elsewhere, they can cut him in 2016.
because of this signing, than it is money well spent. But I am not sure the weaknesses in the Giant's return game were because of who was returning the kicks/punt so much as who was blocking. I never got the sense our punt returns sucked because who we had back there was too slow or not elusive enough. It always felt like there were 2 or 3 unblocked guys bearing down on the returner as the ball arrived.
I don't remember seeing Harris make many plays in coverage, but that may only be against us. Certainly lot of room for improvement there.
... for Dallas in 10 and 11 personnel groupings, you see why they also think he will help the running and screen games, in addition to all the return/coverage units and maybe some plays as an actual receiver. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't; I don't think it's a bad two-year investment to find out. Yes, his 2016 cap number is a little steep, but not if he does all the things they hope he can do for the next two years.
in the media...just read Peter King's MMQB and he calls Harris a slight better than average return man. And he says this contract is called having cap money burning a hole in your pocket.
Then, on the weekend, watching NFLN, they have the Seattle-Dallas game on and there I see Harris fumbling a punt.
Not exactly stuff that fills you with confidence. I really still do not know what JR is doing.
...and he had ball-security issues for the first time in his career. The Giants chose to treat those problems as a one-year aberration, and priced him accordingly. Time will tell. On the plus side, a lot of Cowboy fans seem to think that Harris was an important contributor to Murray's success. So that's something positive from 2014.
how well Harris does as a return man with this ST unit blocking for him. Is it me or did the Cowboys seem to have a much better blocking unit than we have every had? Does Harris have the speed to compensate if so?
it is essentially a three year deal. If you cut him after year 2 you have $2.4 Million in dead money and only a $1.4 Million cap savings. Possible but no way to run your salary cap. After year three you have $1.6 Million in dead money but a cap savings of over $2.4 million. This is not a Myers prove it contract by any stretch of the imagination, nor is it significantly back loaded.
Willie: Cap 'savings' from cutting Harris in 2017 would be $2.975MM. Â
It's an even $3MM if he's cut before earning his tiny workout bonus.
Savings are savings. The signing bonus is a sunk cost, and will hit the cap at one point or another whether Harris is on the team or not. Obsessing over dead money is no way to manage the cap either. If they have a better option in 2017 than paying Dwayne Harris $2.975MM, they will cut him and save his salary, leaving dead money of $2.4MM over 2017 and 2018. The timing of the dead money hit depends on the specifics of his release, and might or might not offset some of the 2017 savings. That doesn't really matter, considering the rollover rules.
all future signing bonus amortization accelerates on cut so it offsets cap savings either in current year or in next year if you cut after 6/1. Cash savings is not cap savings and frankly I don't spend any time worrying about whether the Tisches and Maras have enough cash - -I only worry about the cap and our ability to attract top talent. One of the reasons we are nearly out of cap money this years is over 8 Million in dead money (signing bonus amortization of players no longer on our roster)
are 1-2 year prove it deals that allow the Giants an escape if things don't work out. I don't have an issue with that. Harris could end up being the #3 WR is Randle leaves or if things go poorly with Cruz. Not that we want any of those things to happen but that could be what 2016 looks like. If one of the LBs emerges as a solid starter I doubt fans will complain.
Part of the problem is people don't really understand how contracts work.
Like Casillas contract. They see 3 years 8 Mil with 3 Mil guarantee... So they assume that 3 Mil is broke up over 3 years meaning, but his contract has basically 1 Mil guaranteed in this years salary. That is basically like not being part of the guarantee because we weren't going to cut him before the year started. So Basically after this year he can be cut at only a 1.3 Mil cost if need be, which is what is really the guaranteed part of the contract is. It could be a 1 year contract costing us only 1.6 Mil this year for a good ST player and backup LB.
Same with JT Thomas... 3 year contract 10 Mil with 4.5 Mil guarantee. However again the base salary of almost 1 Mil is guaranteed and he wasn't going to be cut this year. Because of that really the guaranteed money after this year is only 2.5Mil and really 500K of that is tied to base salary next year. After 2 years the amount owed will only be 1Mil of the 4.5 Mil making it really a 1-2 year contract unless we is worth keeping.
Shane Vereen same thing. His 1.25 Mil base salary is part of the guarantee so after this year he will only have 2.33 Mil in dead money if cut next year and 1.1 Mil in year 3.
Dwayne Harris is a 5 year Contract for 17.5 Mil with 7 Mil Guaranteed, but really it is a 2 year contract costing us 1.8 Mil against the cap this year, 3.8 Mil against the cap next year, and then he can be cut for only 2.4 Mil of dead money if need be because over 3 Mil of the guarantee is in the form of salary. So for a ST stud and yes he is a stud that is not bad at all. Not many returners also are gunners.
So basically you can't go by guaranteed money like in previous years. What matters is future guarantee money. You need to go by non-base salary guaranteed money to really know how long the contract is for us to keep him if they end up not being worth keeping.
If we don't get some help on defense, Harris will not be Â
are 1-2 year prove it deals that allow the Giants an escape if things don't work out. I don't have an issue with that. Harris could end up being the #3 WR is Randle leaves or if things go poorly with Cruz. Not that we want any of those things to happen but that could be what 2016 looks like. If one of the LBs emerges as a solid starter I doubt fans will complain.
These deals are basically how they should've structured the Martellus Bennett deal (assuming they didn't try). It's a little extra risk in terms of future cap space (dead money) if the deal doesn't work out, but if the player works out and exceeds expectations, they have them locked up for a couple extra years below market value.
I'm confident that McAdoo will find ways to take advantage of Harris' skill set on offense and as many have said, he's a very good all around special teamer (i.e. he's not just a KR/PR). I think we'll see him line up all over the place on offense (outside, slot, backfield, etc).
Thomas/Casillas I'm less optimistic about, but if we get another big body upfront that can occupy some blockers, it'll be nice to have some speed behind them at the LB spot. Thomas could easily develop into the player we hoped JW would.
People who complain about one-year "prove-it" deals should realize that the team has to compensate a player for giving up the chance for a bigger payday down the road. That compensation takes the form of additional guarantees.
People who complain about one-year "prove-it" deals should realize that the team has to compensate a player for giving up the chance for a bigger payday down the road. That compensation takes the form of additional guarantees.
It's also a wise use of the massive amount of cap space they have for 2016, which is why these guys have at least part of their 2016 base salaries guaranteed (in lieu of a larger SB and roster bonuses). Even with extensions for JPP, Eli, and Prince they'll still likely have ~$35M in 2016 cap space which is enough to sign multiple large pieces.
Especially since you have to spend the money now, having too much cap space can actually be a bad thing as you're more likely to get locked into a long term, big money deal that will result in large chunks of dead money (see Suh's previous deal with Detroit). None of the deals by the Giants this year, fall into that territory.
One can only conclude the JR intends to allocate the majority of the 2015 draft to the defense. I would hope to see 2 new d-line people, 2 new safeties and perhaps an LB or 2. I see no way that the d as it is now will stop many teams even if we have no major injuries. O-line would be nice, but I do not see any way that he can ignore the obvious.
One can only conclude the JR intends to allocate the majority of the 2015 draft to the defense. I would hope to see 2 new d-line people, 2 new safeties and perhaps an LB or 2. I see no way that the d as it is now will stop many teams even if we have no major injuries. O-line would be nice, but I do not see any way that he can ignore the obvious.
it still doesn't add up unless you think all your starters on D are already on the team. How many starters do you think we can draft ?
Maybe 1 at #9 unless we are going to trade to get another #1.
Question: Why do the Cowboys use Cole Beasley more than Dwayne Harris? Harris seems the more athletic threat.
David Moore: It's not strictly about athletic ability, although I will say that Beasley is a very good athlete. Go on YouTube and watch him dunk. The reason Beasley has cemented that No. 3 receiver role is because he has an innate ability in the slot. He's a true slot receiver, able to operate in traffic and still find the open seams. Ask Michael Irvin about Beasley. He loves him. He has a knack for the position that Harris and many other receivers don't. That's why you've seen a dramatic increase in his opportunities recently. That, and the fact he's made the most of them.
Not sure what this says about his likely role in McAdoo's offense.
he could be insurance for when they let Randle walk
He is without a doubt insurance for Randle. He just doesn't return punts or KO's either but he is gunner and he can catch the ball as wideout.
I see him as a perfect fit for the WCO we run and we overpayed because we need him. This is a passing league.
I don't want Beckham hurt returning punts. I just don't. Let him focus on what he does best which is draw and beat double coverage.
If this OL stays healthy and thee Canadian B. Jones comes on in camp and wins the starting job, we might have a super solid OL. Not spectacular but solid. And if that happens Eli will be doing much like the Patriots did in the SB and throwing short to guys who can do that and lONG (Randle, Beckham) when the opportunity presents itself.
Our defense has to be kept off the field and the more weapons Eli has the better our D will look.
I think the trick is to treat this as a 3 year deal Â
So it's like a Brandon Myers deal?
Gonna be interesting to see if we get bang for buck. To be a good return Harris needs to be impacting games.
I assume the Giants have looked at the beneath
- Yards per punt return above average
- Yards per kick return above average
- Yards per punt covered below average
- Yards per kick covered below average
- Yards per route run above average
and they think in amongst all of that Harris can kick in a certain number of yards a game on a regular basis. I wonder what that number is. I think it needs to be around 50 to make this a good signing.
2016: $2,975,000
2017: $2,975,000
Quote:
It is a one year deal and if he shows he can be more than a special teams player maybe Years 2 and/or 3 with a modification to bring down same immediate base money
So it's like a Brandon Myers deal?
The Myers deal unless he became Jimmy Graham was never going to be more than a 1 year deal. There is potential for Harris to last longer if he plays well but he doesn't have to be a stud to be worth the money. If a comparable player in Free Agency costs $2.5 Million to have a guy who knows the system especially if he has shown flashes may be worth the extra $400K you are paying Harris
2015: $975,000
2016: $2,225,000
2016: $2,225,000
One other important, team-friendly aspect of Harris's contract: no roster bonuses due at the beginning of the League year. That means, once Harris becomes cuttable in 2017, the team has total freedom to keep him through the summer at no cost, and postpone a decision until final cutdowns.
Depends how it is structured though. I think $4 Million of that is signing bonus which gets prorated and the other guarantees could be in roster bonuses in years 4 and 5
Not quite. It's far from a one year deal with the bonuses and guarantees.
I just question was it really necessary to jump from $975K to $3 million per season in order to lure him away from Dallas. He wasn't that dynamic of a returner last year and has always been an afterthought in their offense.
Cap be damned, Reese said fuck it...i'm signing this hog. And I'm going BIG.
Quote:
He is guaranteed 7.1m. It is a 2 yr deal minimum.
Depends how it is structured though. I think $4 Million of that is signing bonus which gets prorated and the other guarantees could be in roster bonuses in years 4 and 5
Most of the remaining guaranteed money is his year 1 and about 70% of his year 2 base salaries. Small workout bonuses ($25k) each year.
JT Thomas's deal is similar.
Both are essentially guaranteed 2 year deals, though if Thomas completely flops this year they could cut him in 2016. Casillas's deal is basically a 1 year "prove it" deal. If he surprises, he could be a bargin for the rest and if he completely flops or they find valuable depth elsewhere, they can cut him in 2016.
It's not a big list.
And it's not a big contract.
I don't remember seeing Harris make many plays in coverage, but that may only be against us. Certainly lot of room for improvement there.
Plus his ST play.
Then, on the weekend, watching NFLN, they have the Seattle-Dallas game on and there I see Harris fumbling a punt.
Not exactly stuff that fills you with confidence. I really still do not know what JR is doing.
Savings are savings. The signing bonus is a sunk cost, and will hit the cap at one point or another whether Harris is on the team or not. Obsessing over dead money is no way to manage the cap either. If they have a better option in 2017 than paying Dwayne Harris $2.975MM, they will cut him and save his salary, leaving dead money of $2.4MM over 2017 and 2018. The timing of the dead money hit depends on the specifics of his release, and might or might not offset some of the 2017 savings. That doesn't really matter, considering the rollover rules.
Like Casillas contract. They see 3 years 8 Mil with 3 Mil guarantee... So they assume that 3 Mil is broke up over 3 years meaning, but his contract has basically 1 Mil guaranteed in this years salary. That is basically like not being part of the guarantee because we weren't going to cut him before the year started. So Basically after this year he can be cut at only a 1.3 Mil cost if need be, which is what is really the guaranteed part of the contract is. It could be a 1 year contract costing us only 1.6 Mil this year for a good ST player and backup LB.
Same with JT Thomas... 3 year contract 10 Mil with 4.5 Mil guarantee. However again the base salary of almost 1 Mil is guaranteed and he wasn't going to be cut this year. Because of that really the guaranteed money after this year is only 2.5Mil and really 500K of that is tied to base salary next year. After 2 years the amount owed will only be 1Mil of the 4.5 Mil making it really a 1-2 year contract unless we is worth keeping.
Shane Vereen same thing. His 1.25 Mil base salary is part of the guarantee so after this year he will only have 2.33 Mil in dead money if cut next year and 1.1 Mil in year 3.
Dwayne Harris is a 5 year Contract for 17.5 Mil with 7 Mil Guaranteed, but really it is a 2 year contract costing us 1.8 Mil against the cap this year, 3.8 Mil against the cap next year, and then he can be cut for only 2.4 Mil of dead money if need be because over 3 Mil of the guarantee is in the form of salary. So for a ST stud and yes he is a stud that is not bad at all. Not many returners also are gunners.
So basically you can't go by guaranteed money like in previous years. What matters is future guarantee money. You need to go by non-base salary guaranteed money to really know how long the contract is for us to keep him if they end up not being worth keeping.
Yeah, that's hyperbole folks, but you get what I mean.
These deals are basically how they should've structured the Martellus Bennett deal (assuming they didn't try). It's a little extra risk in terms of future cap space (dead money) if the deal doesn't work out, but if the player works out and exceeds expectations, they have them locked up for a couple extra years below market value.
I'm confident that McAdoo will find ways to take advantage of Harris' skill set on offense and as many have said, he's a very good all around special teamer (i.e. he's not just a KR/PR). I think we'll see him line up all over the place on offense (outside, slot, backfield, etc).
Thomas/Casillas I'm less optimistic about, but if we get another big body upfront that can occupy some blockers, it'll be nice to have some speed behind them at the LB spot. Thomas could easily develop into the player we hoped JW would.
It's also a wise use of the massive amount of cap space they have for 2016, which is why these guys have at least part of their 2016 base salaries guaranteed (in lieu of a larger SB and roster bonuses). Even with extensions for JPP, Eli, and Prince they'll still likely have ~$35M in 2016 cap space which is enough to sign multiple large pieces.
Especially since you have to spend the money now, having too much cap space can actually be a bad thing as you're more likely to get locked into a long term, big money deal that will result in large chunks of dead money (see Suh's previous deal with Detroit). None of the deals by the Giants this year, fall into that territory.
it still doesn't add up unless you think all your starters on D are already on the team. How many starters do you think we can draft ?
Maybe 1 at #9 unless we are going to trade to get another #1.
David Moore: It's not strictly about athletic ability, although I will say that Beasley is a very good athlete. Go on YouTube and watch him dunk. The reason Beasley has cemented that No. 3 receiver role is because he has an innate ability in the slot. He's a true slot receiver, able to operate in traffic and still find the open seams. Ask Michael Irvin about Beasley. He loves him. He has a knack for the position that Harris and many other receivers don't. That's why you've seen a dramatic increase in his opportunities recently. That, and the fact he's made the most of them.
Not sure what this says about his likely role in McAdoo's offense.
I see him as a perfect fit for the WCO we run and we overpayed because we need him. This is a passing league.
I don't want Beckham hurt returning punts. I just don't. Let him focus on what he does best which is draw and beat double coverage.
If this OL stays healthy and thee Canadian B. Jones comes on in camp and wins the starting job, we might have a super solid OL. Not spectacular but solid. And if that happens Eli will be doing much like the Patriots did in the SB and throwing short to guys who can do that and lONG (Randle, Beckham) when the opportunity presents itself.
Our defense has to be kept off the field and the more weapons Eli has the better our D will look.
Still a little high but perhaps they see enough value on STs and on offense to justify that kind of payout.