Thought-provoking NYG/Reese call to Sirius w/ Papa & Amani

Forget about the 2 SB's, that was Ernie Accorsi's nucleus. This team we are watching now is Jerry Reese's doing, and it is not pretty. We have wasted 4 years of Eli's prime.

is the one going to get fired. Almost seems like Jerry is counting on it by the way he is currently setting this team up for failure. Playoffs or done? It's early but I don't think we're much better off than we were last season at this point.

Marc ross is still part of the organization. He is the culprit for all the missed middle round picks.

You can dumb down arguments, but it doesn't make them right.

Jeopardy too. Another failed season and they both will be fired.

You also have to give them credit that they realized this and changed up philosophy in the draft last year. That change netted OBJ, Richburg, Williams, Kennard and some guys that could be contributing players this year. They also got Wynn as a UDFA, so let's see what this years crop turns out before we are running the FO out of town.

In comment 12186167 rmonzo said:

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Forget about the 2 SB's, that was Ernie Accorsi's nucleus. This team we are watching now is Jerry Reese's doing, and it is not pretty. We have wasted 4 years of Eli's prime.

Don't give me that Accorsi horsehit. The second Super Bowl was undoubtedly Reese's roster -- Victor Cruz, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, JPP, Michael Boley, Rolle, Baas, Beatty etc. And without Reese's 2007 draft, that team doesn't win the bowl.

Mara casts his votes in that draft room
The scouts find the players
Marc Ross is VP of player evaluation
The kids drafted never get off the bench

Why they need 90 players in camp with limited practice time is beyond me.

Over the recent years we've seen

Coughlin throwing the challenge flag when it wasn't necessary, getting the flag stuck in his sock

Gilbride's receivers running the wrong patterns and not on the same page as the QB

Fewell's DB's out of position


The whole organization is failing. It's not just Reese.

This reminds me on the 90's George Young Giants. WTF is going on?

In comment 12186206 Bobby Humphrey's Earpad said:

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In comment 12186167 rmonzo said: Quote: Forget about the 2 SB's, that was Ernie Accorsi's nucleus. This team we are watching now is Jerry Reese's doing, and it is not pretty. We have wasted 4 years of Eli's prime. Don't give me that Accorsi horsehit. The second Super Bowl was undoubtedly Reese's roster -- Victor Cruz, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, JPP, Michael Boley, Rolle, Baas, Beatty etc. And without Reese's 2007 draft, that team doesn't win the bowl.

Please don't let facts get in the way of your typical nonsensical BBI rant.

Marc Ross and the scouts identify the prospects the team should focus on...especially the middle to late round targets. They've done a piss poor job for a while. Guys like Dillard...that couldn't win a starting job on his college team yet somehow was a 4th round pick in the NFL Draft? They are legion. There are signs they may have adapted...the last two drafts appear to hold some promise. Time will tell...yet time is running out for this regime.

That the first SB was largely Accori's roster, the second was undoubtedly Reese's team. Yes, Reese has had some poor drafts, but some of this can be accounted to all the devastating injuries to major players.

I would say his last 2 drafts have been solid. I dont know if that is because they changed their draft style, or if it is pure luck. If the trend continues, he will have 3 solid drafts in a row and will have this team pretty stocked with young talent.

But make no mistake about it, this draft is a HUGE draft for the organization and Reese especially. He NEEDS to hit on at least 3 players or more.

In comment 12186190 geemanfan said:

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Jeopardy too. Another failed season and they both will be fired.

Not sure I agree with that. I think he will get a chance to hire a new coach. Although Mara will be in on a new coach hire also of course.

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Michael Rodney @PackerUpdate · Mar 14 Of the 60 Packers currently under contract, only Julius Peppers has ever played a game for another team. Think about that for a minute.

And this is what they wind up doing in FA, while we are spending good money on low-tier/backup-level guys.

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Michael Rodney @PackerUpdate · Mar 14 And then there was one. Packers are now the only team in league to have not made an addition to the roster since the start of free agency.

and can't put a good enough team around him year to year.

The grass is not always greener.

for about two years now, fwiw.

fault the same as a bad pick. He is in charge, the scouts report to him. Same as in any other business. But to say that Reese had nothing to do with the 2 SBs is just moronic.

In comment 12186167 rmonzo said:

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Forget about the 2 SB's, that was Ernie Accorsi's nucleus. This team we are watching now is Jerry Reese's doing, and it is not pretty. We have wasted 4 years of Eli's prime.

Aren't you the guy who kept predicting that the Giants would put OBJ on IR last year? If it wasn't you, it was someone with a handle very similar to yours.

Reese has missed big on OL and LBrs taken in the mid to late rounds. These should be your future lineman - or at least backups and your special teams players. Some were OK, but none really developed.

Remember when you win the SB you get the last pick in each round. That has to slim down the pickings a little bit.

I get the impression that John Mara naturally aligns himself more along side Reese on the management decision making side of things and because of this and human nature he gives Reese much more of a pass on some things than he does compared to his assessment and critical thinking of the coaching staff. His critical public comments about coaching staffs use (or lack of) Jernigan speaks volumes to this.

John Mara and his brother Chris are a big part of the decision making unit along with Reese so they are more likely to agree with the thought process and strategy that went into most prior decisions so it understandable they will also justify the thinking that lead to mistakes since they view it from that perspective. As a result Reese appears to possibly have a longer rope than maybe he should.

no argument from me on that. Going into week 2 of FA, I have no idea what we are trying to accomplish. We needed both OL and DL help and have done virtually nothing. Newhouse seems like another round of Jerry/Walton.

The Harris contract is being heavily criticized and I am not sure that is unwarranted.

I agree that the two SBs were basically EA's teams. Drafting of JPP and Nicks, at that time, had an impact but Nicks is on his way out of the league and JPP has not been the same since 2011.

I do not believe, however, that Reese is safe if we have another bad year. Reese provides the players to TC. To me, he is the man on the hot seat, not Tom. Right now, his actions so far are not very impressive.

JR has not succeeded because as a general matter we do not have healthy starters from the draft. Period. Be it injury or suck, we dont have a lot to show from the top of the 2007-2012 drafts -- the guys who should be in their primes. It has been mostly injuries though. Wilson, Austin, Nicks, Sintim, Philips, TT, and Steve Smith are either out of the league or just about. Most had no medical red flags, and several looked like great core players before succumbing to multiple injuries. In particular, Nicks, KP, Smith and TT were all very productive, and Wilson was well on his way. JPP has never gotten over the back stuff, and Prince has missed 1 of every 3 games since he was drafted.

But to criticize JR for not getting into the trade frenzy? That is not disqualifying. To complain that the problem is Brewer and Mosley not being starting tackles? They were 4th rounders -- what do you expect? Look at the guys drafted after them. I find the Giants 20 year pursuit of athletic raw tackles in the 2-5 round to be depressing (I go back to the days of Gragg, Oben, and Myles). But Papa is way off base in singling out these two guys IMO.

The problem is injuries. We're setting records for injuries.

has missed on a lot of middle round picks, especially on the OL. Even acknowledging that many of these picks never work out, his record is still poor. Other teams seem to have done better on day three. But his last two drafts have shown promise, so let's wait and see what happens this season.

because he feels Reese let him go a year or two sooner than he thinks he should have.

Papa points out a lot of truths. However, sprinkled in with some of the draft misses was a string of bad luck...

Contrary to Toomer's BS... David Wilson was electric... Would have been a game changer. So are Jennings and Vereen expensive fixes for that bad luck... Indeed.

Chad Jones... NO one knows for sure... But this is another guy that should have been starting for this team the past few years... Coming into his prime.

Kenny Phillips... I don't need to remind you...
Same could be said for Terrell Thomas... Steve Smith... These three guys who we all saw what they could do before their careers were cut short would present a much different prism to look at Reese's drafting history...

Does he tend to "reach" too much... Yes. Has he wiffed on some of those... Yes. Is he the disaster that some make him out to be? No.

Can someone explain that to me?

is not realistic at all. There is no such thing as a sure thing.

Let's try to operate within reality here.

falls on the coaching staff. Either Reese isn't communicating with the coaching staff, or the coaching staff is doing a poor job of developing players (or both). Either way, you can't just say that it's Jerry Reese's problem.

I suspect that TC's reluctance to replace ineffective coaches is a healthy contributor to the current problems. Jerry Reese isn't lighting the world on fire, but he's not getting help from the staff...

I'm amazed that Mara continues to demand change at the coordinator spots, yet fails to make any shake-ups in the front office. It is so clearly where the problem lies. It's such a shame that Eli won ring #2 at age 31 and may never sniff another one because of the ineptitude of the front office in recent years. Is Jerry putting in another Super Bowl countdown clock this year?

Ten Ton hit it right - you can't just forget about the 2 SBs and complain about everything in between. Maybe he has missed on some drafts, but every team does. There are no dynasties anymore, period. You load up every decade and then go for it when you are close. Even NE and little Bill misses out on pick after pick as I follow them a lot. They are the closest thing to a so called NFL dynasty (good year in year out).

Be careful what you wish for people. I think the draft failings of late have more to do with Marc Ross and the scouting department than Reese. Also the Giants have experienced a ridiculously unlucky string of injuries to young draft picks like Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Mario Manningham, Chad Jones, Hakeem Nicks, Steve Smith, David Wilson,Jay Alford, and even Adam Koets. Koets was brought along very slowly but looked at home at center and he was just starting to blossom when he suffered his knee injury right after receiving a 2 year extension.

In comment 12186291 drkenneth said:

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is not realistic at all. There is no such thing as a sure thing. Let's try to operate within reality here.

This is BBI- reality's got nothing to do with it.

In comment 12186288 drkenneth said:

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Can someone explain that to me?

No one's 'holding him responsible' - with that said, the team has seemed to have a strategy of seeking guys who are undervalued (rather in the draft or FA) due to injury issues. Kiwanuka, Tuck, Thomas, Webster, the trade for Beason are all examples - and they have paid tremendous dividends for the team. But when a guy like Beason is injured again, it's hard to blame that to just poor luck.

Further, those injuries served to highlight the significant lack of depth the roster has.

Look at the Cardinals as a team that was able to overcome significant injuries to elite players.

Injuries are a poor excuse for the performance of this team.

couldn't be any more opposite to Vereen's. We didn't sign Vereen because we failed at drafting that spot (Wilson's injury is a big reason, to no ones fault), we signed him because he fits perfectly with this system.

Its fine to pick apart decisions, but getting Vereen wasn't because we didn't draft well. He has a skillset that very few at his position have. We also didn't even pay that much for him.

In comment 12186299 bceagle05 said:

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I'm amazed that Mara continues to demand change at the coordinator spots, yet fails to make any shake-ups in the front office. It is so clearly where the problem lies. It's such a shame that Eli won ring #2 at age 31 and may never sniff another one because of the ineptitude of the front office in recent years. Is Jerry putting in another Super Bowl countdown clock this year?

So you don't think the OC/DC were issues? You don't think McAdoo is an upgrade from KG?

I'm not bashing KG, but it was easy to see for anyone paying attention that the previous system was on it's last legs, and needed an upgrade.

It's not that 4th or 5th rnd picks should become starters although it would be nice to have 1 but its the 4th or 5th rnd picks that cant even be used for depth, in which now Reese is spending money for depth players.

but the disintegration of the offensive and defensive lines on his watch hasn't gone unnoticed. When he took the reins in 2007, the Giants were dominant on both sides of the line. We haven't been able to run the ball or stop the run for a few years now.

In comment 12186294 BamaBlue said:

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falls on the coaching staff. Either Reese isn't communicating with the coaching staff, or the coaching staff is doing a poor job of developing players (or both). Either way, you can't just say that it's Jerry Reese's problem. I suspect that TC's reluctance to replace ineffective coaches is a healthy contributor to the current problems. Jerry Reese isn't lighting the world on fire, but he's not getting help from the staff...

Yeah, we all know Brewer, Petrus, Williams, Paysinger would be all-pros somewhere else. Who has signed Jernigan again? Please

In comment 12186291 drkenneth said:

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is not realistic at all. There is no such thing as a sure thing. Let's try to operate within reality here.

No one's saying that. However, a team should get production out of some of their middle round picks over a handful of drafts.

Hit or miss wise. We have had a terrible run of injuries to draft picks as noted already. And look at a situation like Will Hill. Hill was a HUGE loss that we still have not been able to fill. It is a massive problem to overcome when good players you are relying on don't pan out, and especially due to injury (Notably Chad Jones, Wilson, Smith, Goff, Cooper taylor, etc.) or other circumstances (Will Hill). Even players that we got production out of have been lost to injury too early creating more holes to fill (Nicks, Manningham, etc).

I am not giving Reese a pass by any means, but his history would (could?) look much better without some pretty bad luck.

And last 2 drafts he has had are looking pretty strong.

In comment 12186320 BrettNYG10 said:

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In comment 12186291 drkenneth said: Quote: is not realistic at all. There is no such thing as a sure thing. Let's try to operate within reality here. No one's saying that. However, a team should get production out of some of their middle round picks over a handful of drafts.

No argument here. But- You'd need to look at the talent pool in that draft to tell me who we could have drafted.

But then Papa took the opportunity to say what he felt. Because JR has been so weak drafting in the middle rounds for the past several years, we have needs where we should not have needs. And the guys JR picked, many of them, aren't just not with the team anymore...they're out of the league.

We all know, basically, you should hit on your first and second round picks, after that it's more a matter of luck....the problem is, a lot of picks after the second round were potential/project picks, that didn't pan out....instead of drafting players who could play football, we were drafting players we hoped could play football....and to add insult to injury, we held onto them too long, even though we had no production out of them....




We had to go out and get Jennings last year at RB and Vereen this year, both at the peak of their FA value (costing us serious $) because Andre Williams didn't take the reins last year, because a guy like Michael Cox has languished on the roster for years now without developing, etc. Toomer was especially critical of the David Wilson pick (Papa made the point about his injury being out of JR's hands) and that DW never came around as a runnning back, was ill-suited for the role, was really nothing more than a (very talented) returner and was simply a bad pick.

Actually, Jennings did not cost that much....compared to Vereen he is grossly underpaid.....we overpaid for
Vereen.....this is an aspect of our offense, that the Giants have not utilized since the days of Tiki....usually, when Eli is throwing to a back(and not too accurately, I might add), it's a 3rd or 4th read/dumpoff/desperation pass....maybe with Vereen, that philosophy will change, and he will be utilized as an important element of this offense....Michael Cox is another in a series of hopeful 7th round picks, that haven't panned out....the decision to pick David Wilson, instead of strengthening this OL, is part of the reason for this offensive mess....




The biggest takeaway for me was Papa saying that we shouldn't have to be spending our FA dollars on backup RB's, KR and linemen...that these are guys you have to hit on in the draft and grow on your own. Those guys become your depth, and it is much more economical to pay draftees than to open your pocketbook in FA, which sets you back. While other teams are nurturing their own talent for depth and to develop starters, and then reaching out into FA to advance their team (not back-fill holes), JR is behind the curve, having to spend our FA money to patch holes caused by poor drafting.

One of the best paragraphs I have ever heard from someone in the know, about the Giants....




You also have to give them credit that they realized this and changed up philosophy in the draft last year. That change netted OBJ, Richburg, Williams, Kennard and some guys that could be contributing players this year. They also got Wynn as a UDFA, so let's see what this years crop turns out before we are running the FO out of town.

We all know, drafting is not an exact science....Reese picked OBj, yes.....lucky for him Detroit was looking for a TE rather than a WR....Can you imagine Megatron and OBj on the same team?...but don't think Detroit isn't kicking their ass for not taking him....Reese needed a #1 badly....Cruz was coming off an injury, Randle turned out not to be "pro-ready", and there was no way they were re-signing Nicks.....OBj was a desperate need and he was sitting there at 12....kind of a no brainer for Reese on this one....Richburg? He's definitely not a guard.....Hopefully, he plays way better at center.....Kennard, is still a big question mark.....can he play 16 games? Can he take that next step in progression, or will he be another JW? We will know at the end of the season....So did Reese really have a great draft, or did OBj just fall into his lap? Once again, we will get an idea of what kind of GM he is with this next draft.....




The whole organization is failing. It's not just Reese. This reminds me on the 90's George Young Giants. WTF is going on?

What has changed in the front office since 2007? Nothing....we have no idea, what influence ownership, TC and his head coaches, and Reese have for a "plan", or how they intend to implement this plan.....after free agency, it sounded like some guys on BBI were ready to jump out of windows.....they should at least wait until the final game of the season.....

As it stands, at this moment in time, until the JPP situation is settled, this defense is in chaos, because it is limited by cap moves it can make....you have to chuckle, when some BBI members, think Reese is going to hit a home run in the draft on just about every pick to solve this team's problems....if they are Lucky, they will get maybe two starters from it.....that will not fill all the holes....it's beginning to look, like this team is focusing on 2016, rather than 2015, when they have a lot of cap space to make some serious moves....sometimes you have to sacrifice a year, to procure your future....only problem is, this should have happened after the 2011 season....as previously stated, because of this, 4 years of Eli's career have been wasted.....hopefully, they have a plan for 2016....

Also true, imv.

Toomer's comments are throwaways, btw.

Clearly Reese is having to sign FAs to overcome a combination of bad decisions and bad luck in the draft. So who does the fan base blame more? Jerry Reese the GM or Marc Ross who runs the draft?

IMO, I have no idea. I think there is plenty to go around. But I have no desire to crucify Reese as I think he has been victimized by more bad luck then most (bad draft selections aside). With all the comments about bad draft selections, the Giants have had some good selections as well.

- Nicks
- Manningham
- Steve Smith
- Aaron Ross
- Terrel Thomas
- Kenny Philips
- Jay Alford
- JPP
- Linval Joseph
- Prince Amukamara
- Jonathan Hankins
- Ryan Nassib
- Justin Pugh
- Odel Beckham Jr
- Andre Williams
- Weston Richburg
- Devon Kennard
- Will Beatty

Those are some considerable names. What is killing the Giants right now is that the 2011 and 2012 drafts are awful due to a combination of risky picks and injuries. By now, players from those years should form the backbone of your team, but most of them are long gone and most our out of the league.

.

is very enlightening to me. Obviously no one is closer to the Giants and gets their message out more.

we all complain about our crappy LB play. We all complain about our FA spending on avg talent and how are drafting is the reason. This has picked up steam from ESPN to Papa now.
It's legion on BBI. It is not unfounded totally...

...but a little off balance in some respects IMO

Our mid round drafting until last two years has been questionable for sure. But look at the year we took LBs Paysinger, Williams and Herzlich in late rounds or UDFA. Well, they all stuck around for a while. No they were not great but they were mostly depth (Williams teased but really was a late round pick gem to most viewpoints). But we now have a choice to sign them, pay them or Casillas, JT Thomas etc...well, we upgraded that depth and that is good IMO.

Had we signed the above for less (if they would have been less which is a fair guess) then that would seem worse no? But we kept our drafted/developmental LBs as depth and they were marginal depth for the time of contract one. But they were depth. Now we upgrade them and spend more and the world is afire with how poorly we draft and why we have no depth. Something is amiss here.

We won Super Bowls with 9-7 teams that with a bounce of the ball could have been playoff less seasons. Beason, Swartz, Jennings and Cruz don't get hurt last year, who knows? Yes the defense is epic bad but Dallas covered theirs pretty well with a good offense. Maybe we might have pulled something together a la 2011 had our offense been full tilt.

The margin between great and so/so seasons is pretty small IMV. Put me in the camp of a few healthy and/or good players here or there and a few lucky bounces and none of this arm-chair GM work matters.

Regression to the Mean. I suspect things will get sorted out. Do we need a few more impact players? Sure. We'll get them and hopefully they will stay healthy and the ball will bounced right again. But after 45 years, things could be a lot worse. We've had it pretty good for the Eli Manning era....I fear for what comes next when he is gone...it was pretty dark for a while after Simms and Parcells left.

Enjoy

In comment 12186315 UConn4523 said:

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couldn't be any more opposite to Vereen's. We didn't sign Vereen because we failed at drafting that spot (Wilson's injury is a big reason, to no ones fault), we signed him because he fits perfectly with this system. Its fine to pick apart decisions, but getting Vereen wasn't because we didn't draft well. He has a skillset that very few at his position have. We also didn't even pay that much for him.

Well said. This point doesn't even seem debatable.

In comment 12186299 bceagle05 said:

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I'm amazed that Mara continues to demand change at the coordinator spots, yet fails to make any shake-ups in the front office. It is so clearly where the problem lies. It's such a shame that Eli won ring #2 at age 31 and may never sniff another one because of the ineptitude of the front office in recent years. Is Jerry putting in another Super Bowl countdown clock this year?

The front office is stuffed with his relations.

for the Giants to construct a functioning o-line?

That is the key question. We will find out this year. If Pugh and Richburg can not step up and help anchor this line then the Giants are screwed and Reese should go. Also, who had the idea to sign Walton last season to start at center? After the shit show, up the middle that was 2012 on the o line it was a dumb idea to place such a question mark into a starter role. News flash, Eli needs pocket and TC loves the power run game. Get a line.

On the plus side guy seems to do a solid job with 1st round picks and this year he is picking higher than ever.

Injuries, poor drafting, some poor UFA choices, some poor coaching, an apparent disconnect between FO and coaches, a number of UFAs who've underperformed ...

it's all part of the fail brew. The FO and coaches could all do better, and the team could use some better fortune from the football gods, for sure.

Btw, you're often a pretty sharp poster, but your recent anger/frustration is ruining many of your efforts, respectfully.

is that when the Giants sat back and re-evaluated the season performance they determined much of the issues weren't as personnel related as they were health and system related.

We had the most missed games by players in the entire league. Fewell defense was not a good fit and did not know how to adjust and MacAdoo's system took half a season to grasp especially for the OL.

Barring a flurry of late activity in FA, Giants are going to battle with a very similar team to last year. We will see if Reese's faith in the roster was well-placed.

No doubt....I may need a BBI break...lol.

There's a lot of frustration.

Papa hit on the same thing that's been repeated by many of us here for a while. The drafting between 2008 and 2012 has yielded little return on the whole, and extremely little to the current roster (really only JPP).

However, for reasons unknown to us on the outside (could be anything from self-scouting to basic coincidence) the 2013 and 2014 drafts appear to have hit on several players...including a possible generational talent in Beckham. Anyone that suggests now that Reese doesn't know what he's doing, or should be on the hot seat, has no understanding of how to run a business or probably even the difference between their ass and a hole in the ground. The tide is turning...we are in the middle of that process as we speak.

Which leads me to another thought...it is incredible how poorly run NFL teams are on a whole. So many teams don't appear to have a long term plan in place because the owners are too impetuous to keep a GM and/or coach around for too long. We are seeing a league full of Wellington Mara's five year plans. I have never been more convinced that in the NFL continuity at the GM and head coach spots is directly linked with long term success.

In comment 12186319 HomerJones45 said:

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Yeah, we all know Brewer, Petrus, Williams, Paysinger would be all-pros somewhere else. Who has signed Jernigan again? Please

These guys weren't brought here to be quality starters. They came as marginal starters and never improved. Some of the blame for why (some of them) remain on the roster has to be from the coaching staff, or from Coughlin. What about the declines in play from guys who are starters... look at how Pugh, Beatty, Cruz and others play has declined. These were all high performers who have gone flat in the past two years. I know you want to lay this all on Reese. Reese is not innocent in the problems that exist, but blame has to be shared with the coaching staff.

it makes sense with how they have approached things so far. Last off season was the major change and now it is time to stay healthy and coach these guys up. Tall order for TC and co. as this does not seem like a talent rich roster to me.

Plus if the o line sucks again please find someone who can address it. I suppose we can blame coaching there but TC has a long history of building winning teams and o line is the foundation of such. To me the fault would be with the talent pool.

I live up in Pats land, and until this year's SB win, the NE fans were going on -- actually worried about Brady not being great anymore, and the draft and certain personnel moves Belichick made that the fans hated. In the Pat-fan mind, the past glories had faded. Same stupid what-have-you-done-for-me-lately-shit I'm reading here. Of course, as soon as they win the SB, they're all geniuses again.

The best organizations, if they have a franchise QB, compete most years. But no one hits on all their acquisitions and decisions.
The Pats are a great organization. They're always in it (one could contend their division is historically weak) but this is the first SB they have won since the year Eli entered the league. The Giants -- a very good organization at least -- OTOH, have had more ups and downs, but have won 2 SBs in that time frame. They were on their way to a likely 3rd the year Plax shot himself. So which trajectory do you prefer?

Should Reese do better as Papa says? Yeah, sure. Their have been some head-scratcher picks and signings. But the idea that he doesn't know what he's doing and should be replaced is comical.

In comment 12186361 JonC said:

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Injuries, poor drafting, some poor UFA choices, some poor coaching, an apparent disconnect between FO and coaches, a number of UFAs who've underperformed ... it's all part of the fail brew. The FO and coaches could all do better, and the team could use some better fortune from the football gods, for sure.

That's a nutshell right there!

In comment 12186402 David B. said:

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I live up in Pats land, and until this year's SB win, the NE fans were going on -- actually worried about Brady not being great anymore, and the draft and certain personnel moves Belichick made that the fans hated. In the Pat-fan mind, the past glories had faded. Same stupid what-have-you-done-for-me-lately-shit I'm reading here. Of course, as soon as they win the SB, they're all geniuses again. The best organizations, if they have a franchise QB, compete most years. But no one hits on all their acquisitions and decisions. The Pats are a great organization. They're always in it (one could contend their division is historically weak) but this is the first SB they have won since the year Eli entered the league. The Giants -- a very good organization at least -- OTOH, have had more ups and downs, but have won 2 SBs in that time frame. They were on their way to a likely 3rd the year Plax shot himself. So which trajectory do you prefer? Should Reese do better as Papa says? Yeah, sure. Their have been some head-scratcher picks and signings. But the idea that he doesn't know what he's doing and should be replaced is comical.

Thanks for the sane post Dave. Well said.

many of the comments. sort of the typical BBI for the thinking challenged group would be more accurate and typical of what has happened to this site.

Great posts.

In comment 12186330 Doomster said:

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The whole organization is failing. It's not just Reese. This reminds me on the 90's George Young Giants. WTF is going on? (1) What has changed in the front office since 2007? Nothing....we have no idea, what influence ownership, TC and his head coaches, and Reese have for a "plan", or how they intend to implement this plan.....after free agency, it sounded like some guys on BBI were ready to jump out of windows.....they should at least wait until the final game of the season..... As it stands, at this moment in time, until the JPP situation is settled, (2) this defense is in chaos, because it is limited by cap moves it can make....you have to chuckle, when some BBI members, think Reese is going to hit a home run in the draft on just about every pick to solve this team's problems....if they are Lucky, they will get maybe two starters from it.....that will not fill all the holes....it's beginning to look, like this team is focusing on 2016, rather than 2015, when they have a lot of cap space to make some serious moves....sometimes you have to sacrifice a year, to procure your future.... (3) only problem is, this should have happened after the 2011 season....as previously stated, because of this, 4 years of Eli's career have been wasted.....hopefully, they have a plan for 2016....

Whoa

1. What changed?
a. A new CBA which includes fewer practices and less contact
b. 90 players go to camp. There are too few reps in the first place and now they're shared by dozens of camp fodder while the draft picks are obviously not even given a shot to get off the bench let alone develop.
c.

2. It is NOT a cap issue. The cap has never been healthier.

3. I agree. Thought that 2011 team winning the Championship was their last gasp. That OL should have been a real focus rather than skill positions. Ironically, they kept drafting DT and the jury is still out if they need another one. Let's hope Bromley mans the #3 gap.

.

is rooted in the fact that we're smart enough to know that a HOF coach/HOF QB combo might come around once every 50 years, so you want to take full advantage. Are some just greedy and/or stupid? Sure. But most can cherish the championships AND express frustration when things go in the wrong direction. Hell, if I were a Colts fans, I'd already be worried about wasting Luck's window. They have a shitty OL and DL, so they throw money at a couple of dinosaurs at the skill positions? They already underachieved with Peyton, in my opinion.

he's widely lauded for cutting through the fog. Graziano raises many of the same issues, and he's a Giants' hater, getting back at his critics. I'm not a big Graziano supporter, per se. But there are many across the media space, add in Grantland, who are taking Reese to task. And it's well deserved. The last two periods of FA have seen huge cap dollars expended to fill emergency holes at the expense of strengthening top tier talent. And it's been like this.

(I know JonC discounts a lot of what AT says, but I agree Wilson was a badly conceived pick, right after TB took the top-rated RB ahead of us. Wilson was another in the long list of "pie-in-the-sky" upsides in lieu of a workhorse, productive pick. And, deej, really, attributing injury to the failures of bad boy, Sintim, et. al; they were/are not NFL capable. My fear is that Bromley and Moore fall in same category)

You can't make any conclusions about the ability of a GM based on a few "examples" of round 3-7 players. It's ridiculous.

They said "James Brewer, 4th rounder, should have started games by now".

Really? Do you know the % of 4th rounders who become starters? Not many. In round 3, you have less than a 30% chance of finding a starter. Brewer was mid 4th.

More importantly, who was on the board when that 4th round pick was made?

The next 10 best players after Brewer were:

Jalil Brown (CB) Colorado
Delone Carter (RB) Syracuse
Alex Henery (K) Nebraska
Christopher Prosinski (S) Wyoming
Chris Hairston (OT) Clemson
Tandon Doss (WR) Indiana
Owen Marecic (FB) Stanford
Taiwan Jones (RB) E Wash
Bilal Powell (RB) Louisville
Rashad Carmichael (CB) Va Tech

According to NFL teams these were the next 10 best players. So Reese is a clown for drafting Brewer ahead of these studs? Is that it?

In comment 12186433 gtt350 said:

Quote:

.

yup, and even his nothing said doesn't make sense

"3. I agree. Thought that 2011 team winning the Championship was their last gasp. That OL should have been a real focus rather than skill positions. Ironically, they kept drafting DT and the jury is still out if they need another one. Let's hope Bromley mans the #3 gap."

That team was on its last legs, especially on OL. Eli and that group of WRs dragged that team to victory. I should have been looked at by the FO as the end of a glorious era rather than the beginning or a continuation.

however, it's not entirely accurate to pin bad drafts solely on Reese. It's clear that draft decisions are made by consensus of many. This was seen in the ‘Finding Giants’ TV program. Tom C likely had considerable influence in those draft decisions too. It is fair to me though, to hold Reese accountable for the results of free agency deals.

What?

Brewer did start 8 NFL games. He's no 4th round prize like we missed with Jalil Brown or Christopher Prosinski but that is 8 games of NFL starting experience.

In comment 12186342 dee-fense said:

Quote:

we all complain about our crappy LB play. We all complain about our FA spending on avg talent and how are drafting is the reason. This has picked up steam from ESPN to Papa now. It's legion on BBI. It is not unfounded totally... ...but a little off balance in some respects IMO Our mid round drafting until last two years has been questionable for sure. But look at the year we took LBs Paysinger, Williams and Herzlich in late rounds or UDFA. Well, they all stuck around for a while. No they were not great but they were mostly depth (Williams teased but really was a late round pick gem to most viewpoints). But we now have a choice to sign them, pay them or Casillas, JT Thomas etc...well, we upgraded that depth and that is good IMO. Had we signed the above for less (if they would have been less which is a fair guess) then that would seem worse no? But we kept our drafted/developmental LBs as depth and they were marginal depth for the time of contract one. But they were depth. Now we upgrade them and spend more and the world is afire with how poorly we draft and why we have no depth. Something is amiss here. We won Super Bowls with 9-7 teams that with a bounce of the ball could have been playoff less seasons. Beason, Swartz, Jennings and Cruz don't get hurt last year, who knows? Yes the defense is epic bad but Dallas covered theirs pretty well with a good offense. Maybe we might have pulled something together a la 2011 had our offense been full tilt. The margin between great and so/so seasons is pretty small IMV. Put me in the camp of a few healthy and/or good players here or there and a few lucky bounces and none of this arm-chair GM work matters. Regression to the Mean. I suspect things will get sorted out. Do we need a few more impact players? Sure. We'll get them and hopefully they will stay healthy and the ball will bounced right again. But after 45 years, things could be a lot worse. We've had it pretty good for the Eli Manning era....I fear for what comes next when he is gone...it was pretty dark for a while after Simms and Parcells left. Enjoy

Rounds 4-7 are a crapshoot. The real problem has been the second and third rounds where you would expect to find some decent starters and depth.

Through a combination of injuries and bad drafting, we have 3 starters: Beatty, Randle and Hankins and a reserve Moore out of 17 picks since 2006. There were some big misses in there: Sintim, Austin, Hosley, Beckhem, Barden and Jawn's favorite player Jernigan. These guys would be in the prime of their careers.

I think people pointing to any single pick (Brewer/Hosley) are misguided. But looking at the entirety of the record over recent years demonstrates poor drafting from 2010-2012.

failures are picks of the nature a lot of people really liked at the time.

Greg Jones had a lot of fans on here, given him being a big-school starter and a super productive player.

as how rounds 2-3 are killing the team on the field now, that's where I'd weight the impact of drafting falling short.

Sehawks drafted both Maxwell and Sherman after we took Brewer.....

You can talk about poor drafts, bad cap management, unreasonable contracts, trouble getting good FAs, and player injuries. They're all factors, but they're not the big picture taken individually. The bottom line is that Reese is responsible for putting together a 53 man roster and practice squad. How good is the roster he's given us?

In comment 12186503 blue42 said:

Quote:

Sehawks drafted both Maxwell and Sherman after we took Brewer.....

Zach Thomas was a seventh round draft pick.

Tom Brady a 6th. It happens.

How long do you think a 2 time Super Bowl champion GM would be out of a job? The Giants would fire him and he'd have five teams calling him within fifteen minutes.

It's not easy being a GM in football. Have his drafts been bad in recent years? Yes. But so have a lot of other drafts from other teams as well. If you're going to hit on the majority of your draft choices every year you'll probably win 50% or more of the Super Bowls in a decade. Do you see anyone doing that?

But Reese has won 2 in the last 8 seasons, which is the time period in which he became GM. Anyone else do that over the last 8 seasons?

In comment 12186501 JonC said:

Quote:

as how rounds 2-3 are killing the team on the field now, that's where I'd weight the impact of drafting falling short.

Yep. 2009-2012, 2nd rounders: Sintim (BUST), Beatty (avg at best LT), Linval Joseph (productive player), Marvin Austin (BUST), Randle (maybe a starting #2 WR)

3rd rounders 2009-2012: Barden and Beckum (Daily Double BUSTS), Chad Jones (car crash ruined career before it started. may have been a good one.) Jernigan (horrid), Hosley (even more horrid)

4 years, 9 players. 6 absolute disasters. 1 productive starter in LJ (now gone), a pedestrian starter in Beatty, and a guy entering a make or break year in Randle.

certainly are a crapshoot and no one expects to hit on every pick but God we have to do better in these slots. I don't know how you can look at the record and not acknowledge that fact. Every one is touting the last two drafts as being an improvement, I certainly hope they are but I think the jury still remains out for some, especially Damontre Moore. If he busts out this is the pick that will hurt the most.

In comment 12186518 Bill in UT said:

Quote:

You can talk about poor drafts, bad cap management, unreasonable contracts, trouble getting good FAs, and player injuries. They're all factors, but they're not the big picture taken individually. The bottom line is that Reese is responsible for putting together a 53 man roster and practice squad. How good is the roster he's given us?

His roster was arguably good enough to win the super bowl in 2011. There is more than Reese involved with building the team, and certainly much more than Reese involved with draft decisions.

The idea that Reese should get a pass because other teams suck is an odd one.

Go Terps offered a very thoughtful post - his was a bit more positive about Reese than I would be, but I think you can optimistically think the past couple of years are a result of a cyclical downturn due to past success.

who would not have taken a chance on Barden given his measureables and his college results.

Theo Epstein won two World Series titles with the Red Sox. One the first in 84 years. That did not prevent him from wearing out his welcome in Boston.

so he wasn't a slam dunk physical talent for the NFL. He's a pretty good example of how fans and even our brass are human, and show a tendency to overrate one of their own.

me thinks.

I understood why they did it at the time, but it's easy to play the results now that it didn't work out and act like they should've known better.

But, I understand your point ... but those swings on potential are part and parcel of the draft strategy problem at the same time. Barden, Beckum, Austin, Sintim etc, it's been acknowledged they swung for the fences on potential because they felt the core talent would hold up for a number of seasons.

Not worried about FA dollars to offset second tier bad drafts and bad luck. As long as half the top and expensive WR/CB/DL positions are under current draft contracts.

I do think our scouts may not have unearthed enough about draftees work habits and maturity...hence the shift to "captains" and passionate football players.

I do think we have had enough problems finding OL and LBs that the systemic failure would be addressed with all of the scouts in some sort of emphasis for what to look for between many a season of same old same old.

But that is not why I have recently turned pessimistic on the FO ( which includes Chris Mara) is the following:

There are two positions you absolutely have to get right when you are dedicated to a 4-3 DL:

The QB has to have a known going forward amount so all other contracts under the cap can be figured out for the next 1-3 years running

The 8 DL. 3 of 8 have to be above league average. 6 of 8 have to be average. A steady stream of up and comers has to be in the pipeline.

If you don't get the first two units right...all the rest crumbles playoff chances and regular season chances against good teams.

As we have seen if you have those two right and one other above average unit ( Just have to stop Nicks and Cruz...opps..there is one more playmaker too many) we can go all the way. Have an elite DL and you can get by with below average safeties (2007-8) or below average lb unit or average Cb (2007-8)

Here is where we are: Eli is uncertain one way or another 2-3 years out so all other plans proceed under greater uncertainty than the past

happens to all GMs

But to also arrive at the same arc of time that we have one above league average but uncertain huge cap or huge loss DL and beyond one other above average and more certain (the only above average certain cash flow amongst 8) a bunch of below league average uncertainty beyond even one year...is disastarous levels of paralyzing uncertainty...that can be seen coming for the prior 2-3 years.

IF all breaks well for JPP and Hankins...we are six average to below average guys to go (Jenkins at age where 16 games is daunting, etc) unless one wants to hope for the far end yet unseen (sure it is possible...but I want a GM who puts us in a place on a vital unit where "possible" is good luck...not a necessity) leap by Bromley or Moore.

He missed on depth and he missed on vital and he missed on the steady cap planned vital units that allow overall talent under the cap.

HE missed. Luck on injuries is going to happen to all teams...that's why you have to get the top two units cap predictable and above average.

He now has too many scenarios to plan for to be more than dependent on the Eagles or Dallas to have worse luck.

CEOs the world over have to run organizations where you have to get the top two positions right or expensive over-rotating slip and slide is the road to a long time at below average

I think this thought is most glaring on the OL and LB. these have been positions of need for a few years and have been filled in questionable fashion, for the most part, including some 2nd tier FAs we've had to spend on. I agree, also, about spending FA dollars on a KR and 3rd down back when we have so many immediate needs. I like both of the guys they signed, but his thoughts on being forced to do so are valid.

I agree that in terms of injury, you can't fault Reese for Wilson's very short lived career. That said, it is questionable that he was ever going to be a full time back in the NFL. With a better overall draft record, I think a pick like this gets a pass. But, Reese has a history f picking a lot of guys deemed projects or reaches. Some worked out, but most haven't. His last couple of drafts have been improved, so I am willing to wait and see what this year yields before saying he is clueless or should be fired.

great drafting teams. The teams that perpetually in the playoffs and wining Super Bowls:

1.) Patriots - no question the best
and now the rest

2.) Packers - very good
3.) Broncos - very good , but last Super Bowl victory was??
4.) Baltimore - Ozzie Newsome -nuff said
5.) Seahawks - newbies since Pete Carroll
6.) San Francisco - 3 years and done
7.) Pittsburgh - eh, maybe..

Name another team. (There might be, I canot recall now)

Eagles - perpetual FA leaders as are the Redskins, Raiders, Cowboys etc.

If you think the Giants are bad - so are most teams or worse.

great drafting team?

A truly elite QB. It covers up problems at every position. We do not have one.

NE is the best drafting team? I don't buy that. They had some absolute bombs. Plenty of bad drafts but Brady covers it up.

Same with GB.

SEA got on a roll and hit big time with some late round picks (and got a QB at a real bargain). This is rare and I'd bet against it happening on a regular basis for SEA.

PIT had a run of a lot of misses lately too. Probably more than average like our Giants.

Somebody mentioned 2010-2012 - That's only 15 players drafted in round 3+. We were below average during this span? Maybe should have had 1-2 more contributors? Those 1-2 players are not the difference for this team.

I understand what you are saying, but Eli has demonstrated that if you give him pass protection and receivers, he can be as good as anyone. In 2011, we had no running game or defense until the playoffs, and he and Cruz got us to 9-7 on their own.

In comment 12186662 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

great drafting team? A truly elite QB. It covers up problems at every position. We do not have one. NE is the best drafting team? I don't buy that. They had some absolute bombs. Plenty of bad drafts but Brady covers it up. Same with GB. SEA got on a roll and hit big time with some late round picks (and got a QB at a real bargain). This is rare and I'd bet against it happening on a regular basis for SEA. PIT had a run of a lot of misses lately too. Probably more than average like our Giants. Somebody mentioned 2010-2012 - That's only 15 players drafted in round 3+. We were below average during this span? Maybe should have had 1-2 more contributors? Those 1-2 players are not the difference for this team.

Ok then, if the best team in football the last 15 years is bad, then what does that say about drafting? I agree a franchise QB covers up loads of evil - but what about the Cinncys of the world, or the Jags when with all the high draft picks they suck (at least Cinncy is making noise).

My point is all the bad mouthing about Reese and the draft is just air. 32 teams - how many are great at drafting every year and why aren't they winning Super Bowls?

Quote:

Injuries are a poor excuse for the performance of this team.

Maybe that's true. But this shit seems to happen year after fucking year. It would be nice if we are not top 5 in injuries what seems to be every year.

Injuries happen but I don't think our talent or coaching can elevate us. Bad drafting, and coaching hurt bad enough. You add injuries like the way we get hurt, and that's just adding to it.

In comment 12186549 Reb8thVA said:

Quote:

certainly are a crapshoot and no one expects to hit on every pick but God we have to do better in these slots. I don't know how you can look at the record and not acknowledge that fact. Every one is touting the last two drafts as being an improvement, I certainly hope they are but I think the jury still remains out for some, especially Damontre Moore. If he busts out this is the pick that will hurt the most.

I think that is the main argument with the Rounds 3-7 situation.

No one is asking for them to be starters. If a few grow into being starters down the road, great.

But the fact they have drafted so poorly in this area that these guys can't even contribute on special teams or even earn a uniform on Sunday (instead of ending on the inactive list) for this particular team over the last few years is crazy.

The players the Giants recently signed should not have cost anything because those specific skill-sets can be found at minimal dollars. This pattern has taken place for a couple of seasons now. You don't sign 20+ guys as they did before last season if you don't have issues drafting and developing your own talent at cost-controlled prices.

good post.

In comment 12186731 AnishPatel said:

Quote:

Quote: Injuries are a poor excuse for the performance of this team. Maybe that's true. But this shit seems to happen year after fucking year. It would be nice if we are not top 5 in injuries what seems to be every year. Injuries happen but I don't think our talent or coaching can elevate us. Bad drafting, and coaching hurt bad enough. You add injuries like the way we get hurt, and that's just adding to it.

I agree with that. I think a team of 'average health' could have won a game, maybe two, more. In-game injuries along the OL against Jacksonville probably cost us that game.

But my larger point was that injuries are a poor excuse in light of the number of injury risks the Giants took on as a team.

In that call on everyone's part. They mentioned how teams like the Patriots hit on most of their mid round draft picks? Since when??

Peter King of all people is now questioning him and his ability to do his job.

The same Peter King who made his career writing 2,000+ words regularly saying absolutely nothing.
The same Peter King who goes out of his way to never have a negative opinion or word about anyone.
The same Peter King who unless I'm mistaken, argued passionately for a few Giants HOF'ers.

When you lose THAT guy and have him calling questioning what you're doing...

You're in a real 'interesting' position.

In comment 12186744 BigBlueinChicago said:

Quote:

In comment 12186549 Reb8thVA said: Quote: certainly are a crapshoot and no one expects to hit on every pick but God we have to do better in these slots. I don't know how you can look at the record and not acknowledge that fact. Every one is touting the last two drafts as being an improvement, I certainly hope they are but I think the jury still remains out for some, especially Damontre Moore. If he busts out this is the pick that will hurt the most. I think that is the main argument with the Rounds 3-7 situation. No one is asking for them to be starters. If a few grow into being starters down the road, great. But the fact they have drafted so poorly in this area that these guys can't even contribute on special teams or even earn a uniform on Sunday (instead of ending on the inactive list) for this particular team over the last few years is crazy. The players the Giants recently signed should not have cost anything because those specific skill-sets can be found at minimal dollars. This pattern has taken place for a couple of seasons now. You don't sign 20+ guys as they did before last season if you don't have issues drafting and developing your own talent at cost-controlled prices.

If they could have been found for minimum dollars, then why weren't they? Fact is, if the Giants had their own players at that level, those players would be walking for FA contracts elsewhere.

The injury problem is bigger than what is being given credit for here. At least as bad as the draft deficiencies because it is good players, starters, that being lost.

and a latte with the coach.

Nobody listens to him when he speaks glowingly about things. Not sure why we should do so when he's unsure about a signing.

years without ONE turning into a player is ridiculously poor drafting. The only one they get a pass on is Chad Jones. He seemed like a good athlete and a good kid. Just an unfortunate accident. The rest just stunk.

sorry.

In comment 12186167 rmonzo said:

Quote:

Forget about the 2 SB's, that was Ernie Accorsi's nucleus. This team we are watching now is Jerry Reese's doing, and it is not pretty. We have wasted 4 years of Eli's prime.

Accorsi got nothing but grief throughout his stint as GM, especially on BBI, as being a brainless, clueless jerk who couldn't get a draft pick right if it bit him in the ass. Now, he's the infallible one who is solely and totally responsible for whatever success the Giants have had (even up to and including winning a SuperBowl in 2011 even though he retired after the 2006 season).

And who was Director of Pro Personnel from 2002 until becoming general manager in 2007? Jerry Reese, who was responsible for guiding Accorsi to much of the talent he drafted and who is credited with the Giants' success in the 2007 NFL Draft, which included the selections of Aaron Ross, Steve Smith, Jay Alford, Kevin Boss, Michael Johnson, Ahmad Bradshaw, and Zak DeOssie...some of whom played important roles in the Giants' Super Bowl XLII victory.

No, he hasn't been perfect, but compared to the other GMs he's held up his end pretty well overall. The problem I have with all the absolutely brainless bashing is that the bashers make one person the repository for all the team's ills. They don't appear to consider anything else as contributory to the recent failings.

That just doesn't stand up to a reasoned, balanced statement.

also with an excellent post.

In comment 12186503 blue42 said:

Quote:

Sehawks drafted both Maxwell and Sherman after we took Brewer.....

And hindsight is 20/20.

In comment 12186291 drkenneth said:

Quote:

is not realistic at all. There is no such thing as a sure thing. Let's try to operate within reality here.

Kennard and I think Hankins. Reese has done well these past two years. Hopefully he can make this his best draft.

Reese when to do so was regarded as blasphemy by some people. I never called for him to be fired. I think he's made some corrections, grown on the job, and is in the process of regaining his form. Please remember on your critique of him to mention the increased, and totally unwelcome, presence of John Mara the last few years. Mara told you guys at the end of the season that they were going to be relatively quiet in free agency. What did you expect?

As far as Coughlin-Reese, this will probably be the last season since the Edict of Meadowlands has already been levied. Jerry will pick his first HC, again, with interference. They would have to hit a high OPI for TC to get them in the playoffs in '15. That's the way it goes.

I can't see blaming Coughlin & his staff for not developing these flat tires. Again the coaching adage of trying to make chicken salad from chicken shit. That's what happens when the overall quality of the roster was degraded for five consecutive seasons. I think JR has stanched the bleeding & they're on an uptick. But it's taking time, time that Tommy doesn't have.

and every year they find a reason to keep the coach.

If you didn't fire him after last season, there's nearly nothing other than a 2003-type season that would result in him being fired.

In comment 12186909 InvisibleBlack said:

Quote:

In comment 12186291 drkenneth said: Quote: is not realistic at all. There is no such thing as a sure thing. Let's try to operate within reality here. Kennard and I think Hankins. Reese has done well these past two years. Hopefully he can make this his best draft.

Hankins was a 2nd round pick.

15 picks in round 3+. Only 2 3rd rounders because Jones was hurt. Based on % that should have meant maybe 3 players.

It's such a small sample to constantly rip the guy.

He also made up the difference with a probowl WR in free agency and other free agents such as Donnell & Ballard.

He had an excellent offseason last year. If he builds on that we can bounce back fast next season.

Talk of dropping Reese is crazy talk especially when the talk centers around the mid to late round picks.

In comment 12186919 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

and every year they find a reason to keep the coach. If you didn't fire him after last season, there's nearly nothing other than a 2003-type season that would result in him being fired.

Wasn't the "win or else" edict that people keep bringing up predicated on TC's retaining all his staff. When Fewell went, so did the edict. This was followed up by the one-year extension which had been in doubt for a bit.

(Damn, what a fine thread, if I do say so myself. I had a feeling that little baby of a thread I was planting had the potential to grow up to be a real big boy one day and make me proud.)

Anyhow, wanted to point out that while some have taken Papa's commentary and run with it, he simply stuck to the facts and did not insert personal opinions or take jabs at Reese.

He pointed out that we are wasting resources on backup-level talent in FA, where those guys should already be on our roster. In large part because of mistakes in the draft, they are not. And many of the mid-range draftees we did select have not panned out, for one reason or another (these are my thoughts: i.e. coaching, poor scheme fit, injury, personal/conduct missteps, etc.)

So instead of being able to use FA dollars to advance our team, we're spending them on backups, special teams guys and role players.

At no time did he call for the ouster of Reese, nor did he discredit our SB wins. Just wanted to make that clear.

In comment 12186662 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

great drafting team? A truly elite QB. It covers up problems at every position. We do not have one. NE is the best drafting team? I don't buy that. They had some absolute bombs. Plenty of bad drafts but Brady covers it up. Same with GB. SEA got on a roll and hit big time with some late round picks (and got a QB at a real bargain). This is rare and I'd bet against it happening on a regular basis for SEA. PIT had a run of a lot of misses lately too. Probably more than average like our Giants. Somebody mentioned 2010-2012 - That's only 15 players drafted in round 3+. We were below average during this span? Maybe should have had 1-2 more contributors? Those 1-2 players are not the difference for this team.

New England probably covers up some of its busts through quantity of picks. They move up and down at will. One pick may bust up while another one proves to be a gem.

Vereen, Harris, & Thomas are not backup-level talent!

In comment 12186930 FranknWeezer said:

Quote:

(Damn, what a fine thread, if I do say so myself. I had a feeling that little baby of a thread I was planting had the potential to grow up to be a real big boy one day and make me proud.) Anyhow, wanted to point out that while some have taken Papa's commentary and run with it, he simply stuck to the facts and did not insert personal opinions or take jabs at Reese. He pointed out that we are wasting resources on backup-level talent in FA, where those guys should already be on our roster. In large part because of mistakes in the draft, they are not. And many of the mid-range draftees we did select have not panned out, for one reason or another (these are my thoughts: i.e. coaching, poor scheme fit, injury, personal/conduct missteps, etc.) So instead of being able to use FA dollars to advance our team, we're spending them on backups, special teams guys and role players. At no time did he call for the ouster of Reese, nor did he discredit our SB wins. Just wanted to make that clear.

The problem I have with the current pronouncements on both the FAs taken this year and the general defensive talent (or perceived lack thereof) is that it really means nothing until we see how effective Spags can be in using the talent.

I remain of the opinion that Moore is going to blossom under an attacking system. He's the one, clear point of vast improvement I see at this point. I think he was completely unsuited to Fewell's more passive approach. I see Spags putting him out there and saying, "Sic 'em," and Moore responding.

NE found more players in rounds 3+ because they had more picks. Nobody consistently beats the numbers in round 3+ including Belichick.

He plays the numbers by grabbing more later picks and tries to make it work. If he didn't have Brady, it wouldn't work as well.

Eric...I don't think at any time in his career Eli played at a truly elite level like a Brady/Rodgers. He's been very good. At times in the top 8-10 level but not top of the league.

.

In comment 12186952 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

NE found more players in rounds 3+ because they had more picks. Nobody consistently beats the numbers in round 3+ including Belichick. He plays the numbers by grabbing more later picks and tries to make it work. If he didn't have Brady, it wouldn't work as well. Eric...I don't think at any time in his career Eli played at a truly elite level like a Brady/Rodgers. He's been very good. At times in the top 8-10 level but not top of the league.

The Giants trade extra picks so they can move up for the likes of Barden and Nassib.

In comment 12186518 Bill in UT said:

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You can talk about poor drafts, bad cap management, unreasonable contracts, trouble getting good FAs, and player injuries. They're all factors, but they're not the big picture taken individually. The bottom line is that Reese is responsible for putting together a 53 man roster and practice squad. How good is the roster he's given us?

but, our biggest problem last year was the record 23 players on IR. Luck plays a larger role in who gets to the post-season than most fans would like to think.

In comment 12186518 Bill in UT said:

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You can talk about poor drafts, bad cap management, unreasonable contracts, trouble getting good FAs, and player injuries. They're all factors, but they're not the big picture taken individually. The bottom line is that Reese is responsible for putting together a 53 man roster and practice squad. How good is the roster he's given us?

but, our biggest problem last year was the record 23 players on IR. Luck plays a larger role in who gets to the post-season than most fans would like to think.

In comment 12186551 Gregorio said:

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In comment 12186518 Bill in UT said: Quote: You can talk about poor drafts, bad cap management, unreasonable contracts, trouble getting good FAs, and player injuries. They're all factors, but they're not the big picture taken individually. The bottom line is that Reese is responsible for putting together a 53 man roster and practice squad. How good is the roster he's given us? His roster was arguably good enough to win the super bowl in 2011. There is more than Reese involved with building the team, and certainly much more than Reese involved with draft decisions.

First of all, there are a lot of posters here who weren't even born in 2011, so I'm sure they're not impressed, lol. Second, you're presenting the very argument that I tried to dispute- it's not just about the draft. And the others involved in draft decisions, do they work under Reese? Is Reese not the guy, other than when the owner may force a pick, who has the final say? If so, he's responsible for every decision.

In comment 12186554 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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who would not have taken a chance on Barden given his measureables and his college results.

I looked at Barden's films and he absolutely overwhelemd the defensive backs in college with his height and excellent hands. His biggest problem in the NFL appeared to be his lack of burst and getting away from backs who put hands on him.

sorry but injuries count

being in the bottom 1/5 of teams in terms of injuries and leading the lead the past two years each breaking a record

the reason that many of our drafted players are out of league is not because of talent it is because of injury

think about all the players whose careers have been cut short
by the injury bug we seem to have in the whole TC era

I am sure that one big reason that free agents don't want to come here is because of the injury history that TC teams have .

.

Looking back over the last 7 or 8 years, I feel that a lot of the blame rests on TC. God knows how much I appreciate the man,but he is too stubborn..I think that we have had good players at many positions that he will not let play and develop. Ramses Barden is one. The one game he was allow to be featured, he had over 100 yards. Jerrigan is the same way. It`s like once you are in the dog house you stay there. Our 1st pick from 3 yrs. ago fumbled 2 times early , and he was sent to the bench for nearly an entire season. WTF. He needs to give Nassib a chance to play in the season. As badly as the G-Men have sucked in the last 2 years, there have been many times that Nassib should have been in there. The old fart need to lighten up a bit and give the kids a chance.( BY the way , he is younger than me)

In comment 12187114 hotrod48 said:

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Looking back over the last 7 or 8 years, I feel that a lot of the blame rests on TC. God knows how much I appreciate the man,but he is too stubborn..I think that we have had good players at many positions that he will not let play and develop. Ramses Barden is one. The one game he was allow to be featured, he had over 100 yards. Jerrigan is the same way. It`s like once you are in the dog house you stay there. Our 1st pick from 3 yrs. ago fumbled 2 times early , and he was sent to the bench for nearly an entire season. WTF. He needs to give Nassib a chance to play in the season. As badly as the G-Men have sucked in the last 2 years, there have been many times that Nassib should have been in there. The old fart need to lighten up a bit and give the kids a chance.( BY the way , he is younger than me)

If Eli is able, he's the one you keep on the field. Nassib is a backup, and it's his role to fill in when the starter can't go, or if the score is so lopsided in the team's favor that he'll just hand the ball off until the game's over (rather than rub a team's face in it).

This is football, not baseball.

injuries happen everywhere
but to have two years in a row as the most injured team - each year setting a record of players on IR.

this means that something is not right with Giants strength and conditioning

In comment 12186438 ColHowPepper said:

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And, deej, really, attributing injury to the failures of bad boy, Sintim, et. al; they were/are not NFL capable.

We just dont know on Sintim. I didnt like the pick because he was always going to be a long term project to convert to LB. The value was going to come as a situational passrusher from the get go, and then eventually as a LB in later seasons. He never earned a spot as the passrusher, and then tore up his knee and never played again. But I'll agree that things were looking pretty bad and its was likely going to be a blown pick.

In comment 12187129 giantfan2000 said:

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injuries happen everywhere but to have two years in a row as the most injured team - each year setting a record of players on IR. this means that something is not right with Giants strength and conditioning

Correlation does not equal causation.

In comment 12187129 giantfan2000 said:

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injuries happen everywhere but to have two years in a row as the most injured team - each year setting a record of players on IR. this means that something is not right with Giants strength and conditioning

Take a look at the key injuries with last season.

DRC has a spine condition. Thurmond tears a pec muscle, Prince tears a bicep.

Football is a violent sport. It's not a satisfying explanation, but this shit just happens. The league rules tell you how much and how hard you can work players. The reality is, it just happens and there's no amount of prevention for these types of injuries other than simply not hitting.

... so I find it very strange that he would be so publicly critical of the Giants GM ... what am I missing?

In comment 12187114 hotrod48 said:

Quote:

Looking back over the last 7 or 8 years, I feel that a lot of the blame rests on TC. God knows how much I appreciate the man,but he is too stubborn..I think that we have had good players at many positions that he will not let play and develop. Ramses Barden is one. The one game he was allow to be featured, he had over 100 yards. Jerrigan is the same way. It`s like once you are in the dog house you stay there. Our 1st pick from 3 yrs. ago fumbled 2 times early , and he was sent to the bench for nearly an entire season. WTF. He needs to give Nassib a chance to play in the season. As badly as the G-Men have sucked in the last 2 years, there have been many times that Nassib should have been in there. The old fart need to lighten up a bit and give the kids a chance.( BY the way , he is younger than me)

Barden is 29 years old, didn't play last year and is looking to catch on somewhere. Good luck with that. Jernigan is a free agent and remains unsigned. What does that tell you?

In comment 12186438 ColHowPepper said:

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he's widely lauded for cutting through the fog. Graziano raises many of the same issues, and he's a Giants' hater, getting back at his critics. I'm not a big Graziano supporter, per se. But there are many across the media space, add in Grantland, who are taking Reese to task. And it's well deserved. The last two periods of FA have seen huge cap dollars expended to fill emergency holes at the expense of strengthening top tier talent. And it's been like this. )

I was going to post same about Graziano . I'm not surprised none of his detractors have an answer to your point about him.

In comment 12187173 baadbill said:

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... so I find it very strange that he would be so publicly critical of the Giants GM ... what am I missing?

He wasn't critical. He gave the facts. See my 3:55 follow up post.

Andre Williams was running behind a line that didn't make holes. I think he's going to be a good one, once we get our ol where it should be.

In comment 12186744 BigBlueinChicago said:

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In comment 12186549 Reb8thVA said: Quote: certainly are a crapshoot and no one expects to hit on every pick but God we have to do better in these slots. I don't know how you can look at the record and not acknowledge that fact. Every one is touting the last two drafts as being an improvement, I certainly hope they are but I think the jury still remains out for some, especially Damontre Moore. If he busts out this is the pick that will hurt the most. I think that is the main argument with the Rounds 3-7 situation. No one is asking for them to be starters. If a few grow into being starters down the road, great. But the fact they have drafted so poorly in this area that these guys can't even contribute on special teams or even earn a uniform on Sunday (instead of ending on the inactive list) for this particular team over the last few years is crazy. The players the Giants recently signed should not have cost anything because those specific skill-sets can be found at minimal dollars. This pattern has taken place for a couple of seasons now. You don't sign 20+ guys as they did before last season if you don't have issues drafting and developing your own talent at cost-controlled prices. I once did an analysis of how many ballplayers are still in the NFL 5 years after being drafted & the results surprised me: 1st round - 50% of choices were still on an NFL roster. 2nd round -33% of choices were still on an NFL roster When you get to the 6-7th rounds - 10%

Again, to prove a point here are some draft years by so called brilliant GM's

NE: Picks after rd 1

2009:P. Chung, R. Brace, D. Butler, S. Volmer, B. Tate, T, McKenzie, R. Ornberger, G. Bussey, J. Ingram, M. pryor, J. Edelman, D. Richard - 6 of those were top 97 picks

2010: Gronk, J. Cunningham, B.Spikes, T. Price, A. Hernandez, Z. Mesko, T. larsen, T. Welch, B. Deadrich, K. Weston, Z. Robinson

2012: T. Wilson, J, Baquette, N. Ebner, A. Dennard, J. Ebert

GB:

2011: R. Cobb, A. Green, D. House, DJ Williams, C. Schlauderhoff, DJ Williams, R. Elmore, R. Taylor, L. guy

2012: J. Worthy, C. Hayward, M. Daniels, J. McMillon, T. Manning, A. Datko, BJ Coleman


Bal:

2010: S. Kindle, T. Cody, E. Dickson, D. Pitta, D. Reed, A. Jones, R. Harwood

2011: T. Smith, J. Reid, T. Doss, C Brown, P. McPhee, T. taylor, A. Allen

2012: Osemele, B. Pierce, G.Gradkowski, T. Thompson, A. Jackson, T. Streeter, D. Tyson

His 2013 is looking awful

2013: M. Elam, A. Brown, B. Williams, J. Simon, K. juscyz, R. Wagner, K. Lewis-Moore, K. Jensen, A. Mellette, M. Anthony. Elam is bad, they want to get rid of Brown, Simon is gone, the last 3 guys did not make team

There is very little in terms of depth here.

It really is a myth in todays NFL about depth coming from the draft in the middle rounds

In comment 12187236 FranknWeezer said:

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In comment 12187173 baadbill said: Quote: ... so I find it very strange that he would be so publicly critical of the Giants GM ... what am I missing? He wasn't critical. He gave the facts. See my 3:55 follow up post.

But the "facts" point to the weakness of the person responsible for selecting personnel ... I would think Giants brass wouldn't be too anxious to have those "weaknesses" highlighted

But there's definitely reasons to be concerned.

Basically I'm giving this frsnchise another year until i hit the panic button. I don't care wtf they do this offseason. To me it's all about the 2015 season. I can excuse a few off years in a row after the run the Giants had from 05-2011 but it's time to win again. If they come out and the young core of players helps this team make the playoffs it's all good in my book.

If they shit the bed in 2015 I'll obviously be disappointed but more important I'll be very nervous. The younger players have to emerge. I don't even want to win with stop gap veterans as much as I want young ascending players to establish thekselves here.

It's way too convenient for some fans to just zero in on reese and place all the blame at his feet. This failure has been a collective team effort from the owner to the gm, the scouts, the coaching staff and yes, Eli.

Reese is an easy target but it usually takes two to tango.

on the thread on Graziano's article, the Giants' 8 players from the 2008-2012 drafts is perfectly normal. I have not looked at every team, but of the ones I looked at, almost ll were between 7-10; GB was the one exception with 15. You can find data on rosterresource.com.

So frankly, I think the assertion is utter BS. No team gets much of its depth from the middle rounds for drafts from 5 or so years ago.

Kev, you sure make it easy to skip the same old same old and go right to your posts

Stretch, nice job on how other drafts from fellated teams fared vs us..

2008 to 2012. That is why this team sucks. To make mattes much worse we were hit with injuries late in 2012, we were murdered by league worst man games lost to injuries in 2013, and we were hit very hard by injuries once again in 2014. If Reese hadn't picked Beckham we'd have likely finished 3-13 or 4-12. That is how bad we were.

Free Agency is generally where you plug a hole. The only time a team doesn't try to keep an UFA with talent is when they have at least one if not two younger, cheaper guys behind the player OR they are so strapped they just can't afford him.

The Giants aren't in bad cap shape overall. They aren't. But Reese needs another solid draft and a return to health otherwise Mara & family may need to clean house after 2015. We need a first round pick that plays and plays well.
We need a second round pick that has "starter" written all over him. Same for 3rd round and maybe finally get lucky with a later round pick and get a few players that contribute late much like in 2007.

Last: this team needs guys like TE Robinson, OG Mosley, OG B. Jones (Canadian), RB Williams, LB Kennard, DT Bromley, DE Moore, SS N. Behre, FS C. Taylor to all come one and be starting quality players. That is a LOT to ask for given what we've seen to date.

I'm praying for a return to health, to stay healthy, to have a good draft and great development by youth.

1. WR Amari Cooper
2. DT Davis
3. Crapshoot!

In comment 12186927 KWALL2 said:

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15 picks in round 3+. Only 2 3rd rounders because Jones was hurt. Based on % that should have meant maybe 3 players. It's such a small sample to constantly rip the guy. He also made up the difference with a probowl WR in free agency and other free agents such as Donnell & Ballard. He had an excellent offseason last year. If he builds on that we can bounce back fast next season. Talk of dropping Reese is crazy talk especially when the talk centers around the mid to late round picks.

Compare those drafts to the ones we had from 2004-2008 where we got a starter in each draft past 3+.

And no one is criticizing (nor advocating firing him) Reese merely because of mid to late round picks - that's a straw man. His overall body of work the past few years is lacking, but seemingly on the upswing over the past two.

And I'm a big advocate of accumulating picks in the middle rounds. I'mnot sure if it's true the Pats have had more success there than anyone else (maybe someone posted the data and I missed it), but the strategy seems sound.

Djm- I disagree that we have to make the playoffs this year. I think an 8-9 win season gives TC another year. I think the team (properly) has a long term focus, and will look for progress. I think we definitely saw progress this past year.

offering the scouts over in Seattle & New England top dollar to come to work for the Giants!

In comment 12187368 #10* said:

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offering the scouts over in Seattle & New England top dollar to come to work for the Giants!

We have nice Scouts Beckham, Kennard, Cooper Taylor and Hankins is pretty good

In comment 12187129 giantfan2000 said:

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injuries happen everywhere but to have two years in a row as the most injured team - each year setting a record of players on IR. this means that something is not right with Giants strength and conditioning

Then there's that. I'm no JR fan and would rather see him replaced before TC, but I'm ambivalent about him.

277 adjusted player games lost over the last 2 years.

277.

To me that's the biggest reason this team is in the toilet.Everything else is smoke and mirrors.Cut that number in half ( it would still be higher than the league avg) and likely as not you have a couple more playoff appearances at the very least.

I would start by replacing the strength and conditioning coach before I went and fired the GM.For no other reason than it's cheaper to do that then tear up the turf and replace it. If that doesn't work you can always change the field.

If you can argue to change an HC because it's "time for a change" and his thinking is "outdated" then you can certainly make the same random argument for changing an assistant coach that came in the door with him.

we have lost a ton of players due to injury the last two years.

Hopefully it normalizes. That in itself should be a big factor to improved play along with more player-friendly systems now both offensively and defensively.

In comment 12187086 bigfish703 said:

Quote:

In comment 12186554 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: who would not have taken a chance on Barden given his measureables and his college results. I looked at Barden's films and he absolutely overwhelemd the defensive backs in college with his height and excellent hands. His biggest problem in the NFL appeared to be his lack of burst and getting away from backs who put hands on him.

Beg to differ. Barden's biggest problem in the NFL was he didn't have the fight in him to play at this level. Neither the commitment off the field to film study etc., nor the "dog" on the field. That is what separates OBJ from many very talented guys in the NFL.

Reese is the guy in charge, and I don't think he needs to go anywhere, but I wonder if any of the scouts are ever on-the-hook for selling the guys who turn out to be bad picks. The Jerrnigans and Sinorice Moss, James Brewer type picks. Everyone in the organization supposedly gets graded at the end of a season, but I think most of the Giants scouts have been their a long time.

Forget what Reese says -- which scout(s), for example, sold the organization -- including Coughlin -- on Ramses Barden -- who can't even get his 6'6" ass on to the field to run a jump ball fade in the endzone, doesn't play special teams, etc.

Yeah, the buck stops with the GM, but the failure in some of these cases is probably on the individual scouts who make cases for prospects. I know they supposedly build consensus on prospects to minimize such mistakes, but when they're missing on so many mid rounders, I have wonder where the breakdown in the process is. Reese is ultimately responsible but he isn't the one out there doing the daily scouting anymore.

Further, we all see Coughlin with his stopwatch at the combine, and he toes the party line in everything he says, but the Giants continue to draft players he won't or can't put on the field. (Barden, Jernigan etc.) Everyone understands that the HC is NOT the GM in this organization, but you have to wonder how/why this still happens. I don't think it's anything the toxic Reeves/Young relationship here, but then is it ALL bad luck?

if you're being subjective. The issue is more about missing in rounds 2-3 and less about 4th and later, with regards to that specific component.

In the grand scheme of things, the regime needs to improve and hopefully what appears to be draft improvement the past two years and a more conservative approach to UFA this year (hopefully contributing to avoiding the trend of being one of the most injured teams) will pay off.

Strongly agree. I've made a similar point for a long time regarding their blind spot scouting the LB positions, but it certainly seems to have reared its head at other positions.
Scouts and the ascension of Ross contributing, it would seem.
Hopefully, the last two drafts are a true indicator of the needle pointing UP.

What am I supposed to look at from the 04-08 drafts?

We found a starter late in each of those drafts?

08 they didn't find anything late. We had a few HR picks late over those years. Wilson, Ward, Jacobs, and Cofield were some of the best round 4+ picks by any team in those drafts. In 03 they picked Deihl who was also one of the best late rounders of the decade.

Finding guys like that is not the norm so you simply can't expect to find quality NFL starters late in every draft.

The problem I see is many seem to expect it. It just doesn't happen for anybody including Belichick, Newsome or any other top GM.

Reese has been consistently good at the top of the draft. Since the he's been Director of Pro Personnel with NYG since 2002, I'd bet there aren't even 2-3 teams who have done better in rounds 1-3 over that time.

If, as you say, we were good at finding late picks from 04-08, and also in the last couple of years, than it sure does seem the issue is those 15 picks in round 4+ between 08-12. If not than what else is there about the drafting by the Giants?

We had a lot of injuries the past 2 years. That's been the biggest problem for the team. It sure isn't the late round misses in the NFL draft.

I do believe they had an outstanding offseason last year. We got the best player in the draft last year (and one of the best of the past 10 years). And we made several low cost improvements this year. I like where we are going right now.

We have a top 10 pick. If Reese continues to score with his high picks I think we have an excellent shot to turn it all around this season.

Trying to add a closer look to Reese and drafting. BTW, I'm happier about my work on the George Johnson thread! It seems I may have been on to a little more than it just being another Rutgers guy I'm promoting. ')
George Johnson - ( New Window )

Nice work.

Always respect your input and research, good stuff. You're a little more optimistic than me, and historically that's been the case, but I hope you're closer to the truth.

Really good stuff KWALL

of the team. I also see no problems with Reese. I get the frustration with the 6 win seasons but the injuries were killers for us.

Beckham gives me a lot of hope. His value is Randy Moss-like so it gives me a lot of hope for a quick bounce back next year.

The big disappointment for me right now, I really wanted an NFL starter added on the OL before the draft so we can go into pick #9 without that big hole.

I wanted Carpenter from SEA or Boling from Cin. It didn't happen so we may lean more to OL at #9. I'm ok with that but would have loved the tall WR from Louisville to match with Beckham for the next 10 years.

But I do like the Vereen and Harris moves. It gives us a lot of versatility. I'm really interested in seeing what they do with Harris. He is an excellent runner so I'm hoping they have plans to get him the ball quickly on offense.

I keep thinking of Harris as a Randall Cobb 2012 role and that making me feel pretty good about what Reese has done so far.

I do see incremental improvements, and am hopeful the sum of the parts will be greater.

A shame there's no slam dunk pass rusher at #9, but with evolving offenses perhaps Torrag's correct they might consider a tweener like Beasley. I like Dupree at #9. If WRs are gone, they just might draft Scherff, otherwise there should be strong options at #40 as well. Need a productive draft weekend!

You really are putting on a clinic here..Nice to see an injection of reality..

optimism is nice, but let's be fair and balanced, BB56.

but that wasn't the difference between a 6-10 team and a contender.

And, spending on 20+ UFAs a year ago does largely illustrate drafting overall isn't doing the job of keeping the bloodline replenished. That's been pretty well spelled out in the past.

In comment 12188538 KWALL2 said:

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of the team. I also see no problems with Reese. I get the frustration with the 6 win seasons but the injuries were killers for us. Beckham gives me a lot of hope. His value is Randy Moss-like so it gives me a lot of hope for a quick bounce back next year. The big disappointment for me right now, I really wanted an NFL starter added on the OL before the draft so we can go into pick #9 without that big hole. I wanted Carpenter from SEA or Boling from Cin. It didn't happen so we may lean more to OL at #9. I'm ok with that but would have loved the tall WR from Louisville to match with Beckham for the next 10 years. But I do like the Vereen and Harris moves. It gives us a lot of versatility. I'm really interested in seeing what they do with Harris. He is an excellent runner so I'm hoping they have plans to get him the ball quickly on offense. I keep thinking of Harris as a Randall Cobb 2012 role and that making me feel pretty good about what Reese has done so far.

Health, a bounceback year from Beatty, no Walton, a second year Richburg ,Pugh hopefully playing more like his first year and year 2 of MacAdoo's system make me cautiously optimistic that this line will be pretty good.

He was average at worst.

meant to write a bounce-back year from Beatty LAST year.

Don't get the hate there...LT is a tough spot to fill. Beatty is just fine.

(Cue the "I want a dominate LT for less money" BBI response)

those who rise above the Xs and Os, will tell you there are no concerns about Pugh moving forward..The $60 I spent for NFL Rewind which includes all games in full and composite form, Coaches tape and playoffs, was the best spent money of my football life..

Just watching Pugh play on one arm for most of the season, you realize that was the root cause for most of his problems last year..

The explanation for Pugh's season is literally out there for everyone to see.

providing health even without necessarily a top 10 pick added to the equation.

In comment 12188716 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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The explanation for Pugh's season is literally out there for everyone to see.

TTH- I, too, was bothered by Pugh not wearing a kneepad on the right side. Hopefully the Skiba brothers will get him properly 'Equipped' this year, and we'll see a complete turn-around out of him!

Are you saying his drafting in round 2-3 is the problem?

If you go back to 02 it's been very good in rounds 2 and 3.

Lately very strong too except for Austin.

I've seen some roasting him for even the Beatty pick. That's nuts. Getting a starting LT at the bottom of round 2 is exceptional. Randle is a good player. For the last pick in round 2 it was good value.

Now look at the next 10 after Randle:

Dwayne Allen TE Clemson ACC
Trumaine Johnson CB Montana Big Sky
Josh Robinson CB Central Florida C-USA
Ronnie Hillman RB San Diego State MWC
DeVier Posey WR Ohio State Big Ten
T. J. Graham WR NC State ACC
Bryan Anger P California Pac-12
Josh LeRibeus G SMU C-USA
Olivier Vernon DE Miami (FL) ACC
Brandon Taylor S LSU SEC


Looking at that list I'd say the Randle pick looks even better.


Hosley was drafted the same year. Again, last pick of the round. The chances of finding a quality NFL contributor at that pick is very low.

Here are the next 10 after Hosley:

Tony Bergstrom G Utah Pac-12
Chris Givens WR Wake Forest ACC
Lamar Miller RB Miami (FL) ACC
Gino Gradkowski G Delaware CAA
Ben Jones C Georgia SEC
Travis Benjamin WR Miami (FL) ACC
Omar Bolden CB Arizona State Pac-12
Kirk Cousins QB Michigan State Big Ten
Frank Alexander DE Oklahoma Big 12
Joe Adams WR Arkansas SEC

Not a lot there right after the Hosley pick.

In comment 12188504 KWALL2 said:

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What am I supposed to look at from the 04-08 drafts? We found a starter late in each of those drafts? 08 they didn't find anything late. We had a few HR picks late over those years. Wilson, Ward, Jacobs, and Cofield were some of the best round 4+ picks by any team in those drafts. In 03 they picked Deihl who was also one of the best late rounders of the decade. Finding guys like that is not the norm so you simply can't expect to find quality NFL starters late in every draft. The problem I see is many seem to expect it. It just doesn't happen for anybody including Belichick, Newsome or any other top GM. Reese has been consistently good at the top of the draft. Since the he's been Director of Pro Personnel with NYG since 2002, I'd bet there aren't even 2-3 teams who have done better in rounds 1-3 over that time. If, as you say, we were good at finding late picks from 04-08, and also in the last couple of years, than it sure does seem the issue is those 15 picks in round 4+ between 08-12. If not than what else is there about the drafting by the Giants? We had a lot of injuries the past 2 years. That's been the biggest problem for the team. It sure isn't the late round misses in the NFL draft. I do believe they had an outstanding offseason last year. We got the best player in the draft last year (and one of the best of the past 10 years). And we made several low cost improvements this year. I like where we are going right now. We have a top 10 pick. If Reese continues to score with his high picks I think we have an excellent shot to turn it all around this season.

Well, you initially discussed rounds 3+, so that's what I was discussing as well.

2004 yielded Gibril Wilson, a solid started for us in round 5.

2005: Tuck was round three, Jacobs was round four. An All-Pro DE and a solid starting RB.

2006: Really just Cofield in round four (a solid starter).

2007: Pretty much everyone other than Koets was a contributor in our SB run. Alford, DeOssie, Boss, Johnson, Bradshaw. A point I meant to make earlier: We had such a good team that younger guys could step in and make a contribution. It was a lot easier for these guys (and other depth-signing UFA's) to shine when surrounded by better players. We saw Randle's game improve when ODB came on the field, for example.

2008: Manningham in round 3, a huge contributor to our 2011 victory.

From 2010-2012, we don't really have many guys who have contributed. And perhaps it's too early on 2012, so maybe I should be using 2009 instead. From 2009-2011, Andre Brown and Jacquain Williams are probably the best players from 3 on. Williams is worth noting because he was a contributor to our 2011 run. He never developed the way I thought, though.

3+ round picks were instrumental to our Super Bowl victories. So while you don't need to hit on them to be successful (as you pointed out), they have been vital to our historical success.

Also, regarding injuries: The 2011 Giants were 26th in adjusted games lost (the Patriots were 30th). I didn't see data for 2007, but we lost Shockey, Kiwanuka, and Ward off the top of my head. I concede that a healthy team could have won a game or two more, but I don't believe they are why we've missed the playoffs the past three years.

I share your optimism about the franchise, despite my many criticisms. I think the 2014 draft has the potential to be the catalyst to the Giants becoming an elite football team again. Other franchises with shorter-term thinking would have Reese's successor benefit (like when Tannenbaum benefited from Mangini's moves). The Giants have had to do better and they largely have IMV.

Beatty was an excellent draft pick. In a draft year that was full of big time busts in round 1 and 2, Beatty was one of the best picks of that draft.

Follow-up: KWALL, your last post touches on something I forgot to mention: I think the draft involves significantly more luck than anyone wants to admit, particularly after round one - so on one hand, I almost feel like my criticisms at the drafting after round 3 are saying "get more lucky!". Skillful teams should do better over a longer sample size, so it's certainly possible the down years are bad luck (a theory reinforced by guys like Jones).

In comment 12188852 KWALL2 said:

Quote:

Are you saying his drafting in round 2-3 is the problem? If you go back to 02 it's been very good in rounds 2 and 3. Lately very strong too except for Austin. I've seen some roasting him for even the Beatty pick. That's nuts. Getting a starting LT at the bottom of round 2 is exceptional. Randle is a good player. For the last pick in round 2 it was good value. Now look at the next 10 after Randle: Dwayne Allen TE Clemson ACC Trumaine Johnson CB Montana Big Sky Josh Robinson CB Central Florida C-USA Ronnie Hillman RB San Diego State MWC DeVier Posey WR Ohio State Big Ten T. J. Graham WR NC State ACC Bryan Anger P California Pac-12 Josh LeRibeus G SMU C-USA Olivier Vernon DE Miami (FL) ACC Brandon Taylor S LSU SEC Looking at that list I'd say the Randle pick looks even better. Hosley was drafted the same year. Again, last pick of the round. The chances of finding a quality NFL contributor at that pick is very low. Here are the next 10 after Hosley: Tony Bergstrom G Utah Pac-12 Chris Givens WR Wake Forest ACC Lamar Miller RB Miami (FL) ACC Gino Gradkowski G Delaware CAA Ben Jones C Georgia SEC Travis Benjamin WR Miami (FL) ACC Omar Bolden CB Arizona State Pac-12 Kirk Cousins QB Michigan State Big Ten Frank Alexander DE Oklahoma Big 12 Joe Adams WR Arkansas SEC Not a lot there right after the Hosley pick.

I was surprised by the Rd 2-3 implications myself

I'd rank Wilson and Cofield higher than solid. When factoring the draft position, both guys were rare steals.

I think the problem is too many people expect the NYG to find these steals in the mid to late rounds. They expect this while ignoring the numbers that show nobody does it consistently.

We did find some great values in some of those drafts. In others we didn't. That should be expected, right?

Overall I'd say Reese has a track record that would rank him very high.

Drafting in 2-3, as well as 4-7, at times leading the NFL in injuries, a number of UFA signings not panning out a year ago (which took place largely due to spotty drafting, and some top talents retiring young and suddenly), some spotty front office work, spotty coaching ... all part of the fail stew, imo.

At this point, it feels the needle is pointing up and I'm hopeful the last two offseasons are true in that regard. I think we're a year away, possibly a 2016 contender if things break our way.

Right now, the defense needs multiple parts. Often, it's "easier" to build and deploy a defense than it is an offense, but we'll see.

So you didn't think I was promoting my point.

terrible injury to Terrell Thomas(who was an outstanding pick) and others.

People expect too much. These writers claiming guys like Brewer should start should know better. Most of the late round guys don't so why call out Reese on a few guys.

Even the 08-12 run. Thats only 15 players. He missed the averages by maybe 1 player over that time!

And I'd say he made up for it by finding the best undrafted FA WR of the past decade.

In comment 12188896 JonC said:

Quote:

Drafting in 2-3, as well as 4-7, at times leading the NFL in injuries, a number of UFA signings not panning out a year ago (which took place largely due to spotty drafting, and some top talents retiring young and suddenly), some spotty front office work, spotty coaching ... all part of the fail stew, imo. At this point, it feels the needle is pointing up and I'm hopeful the last two offseasons are true in that regard. I think we're a year away, possibly a 2016 contender if things break our way. Right now, the defense needs multiple parts. Often, it's "easier" to build and deploy a defense than it is an offense, but we'll see.

Good post (because I agree with it).

Round 2 has been good, but I lower the grade due to huge misses on Sintim and Austin.

In comment 12188872 KWALL2 said:

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Beatty was an excellent draft pick. In a draft year that was full of big time busts in round 1 and 2, Beatty was one of the best picks of that draft.

Doesn't speak well for that draft year.

... if you're being objective ...

Randle was the last of 5 WR drafted in the 2nd round in 2012.
Alshon Jeffery (18 slots before Randle) is definitely doing better than RR. RR has been about as productive as the other three (Quick, Broyles and Hill) put together, even though they went 30, 20 and 9 picks before him. Anyone who says RR was a bad pick is clearly judging by the wrong standard. You have to judge by the average performance, not by what you hope for; the uncertainty in drafting is far greater than most fans (and GM's for that matter) seem to realize.

Similarly Graziano has made much of the fact that we have only 8 players left from the 2008-2012 drafts. Look around the league. That is entirely typical, I looked at a bunch of teams, I listed them on that thread. The only one I found with more than 10 was GB.