If there is one thing that burns me up is hearing folks erroneously say Reese has been neglecting the trenches.
Lack of desired results thus far doesn't equate to 'neglect'.
On the OL:
Giants have 2-2nd round picks (Beatty/Richburg), 1- 1st round pick (Pugh) and one of the top OGs on the market last year (Schwartz).
I agree Reese may have rode the Diehl-Snee-Ohara-Seubert-McKenzie line a little too long but he has certainly spent premium resources in the last few years to fix the OL.
Health, youth and learning curve were the issue more than anythng else. Lastly, Giants the worst starter Walton will be replaced by a 2nd year Richburg now.
On the DL:
Giants have a 1st round pick in JPP, a 2nd round pick in Hankins, an emerging 3rd round pick in Moore (who I believe will make a big jump under Spagnuolo) and another 3rd rounder in Bromley (who after Aaron Donald was the biggest sacking DT in the draft).
Premium resources have been allocated to these positions with high frequency. Now if you want to argue the 'less' critical positions of TE or LB that's another story.
The OL has a mess for years. A few recent high draft choices still wasn't enough to fix the mess.
Debunking the myth? Go check stats and the 6-10 record.
And we've failed MISERABLY for several years at doing just that. The Oline isn't neglected as much as it is being tended to extremely poorly.
Emotions getting in the way of coherent thinking.
And we've failed MISERABLY for several years at doing just that. The Oline isn't neglected as much as it is being tended to extremely poorly.
good post.
The facts clearly show Reese has addressed the lines. But the facts don t support the narrative many espouse so they ignore them.
built a 7-9 and 6-10 team b/c the LOS is awful?
When the HC is still asking "how about running the ball and stopping the run", take a hint. Warm bodies isn't paying attention as much as it's neglect.
Of course, he could have taken Cordy Glenn, who was apparently the highest rated player on their board, but passed him over for Wilson. Doing so meant that we eventually had to overpay for Beatty. He also could have taken Max Unger or Andy Levitre in 2009, but instead took Clint Sintim, a downhill 3-4 OLB with no pass coverage ability. We play a 4-3. So then he overpays for Baas because we need a center.
We are still suffering the effects of his neglect.
The OL has a mess for years. A few recent high draft choices still wasn't enough to fix the mess.
Debunking the myth? Go check stats and the 6-10 record.
Its not a Myth, it was too little to late. When the giants defense still had more talent on it, our Oline was a huge problem and most of us saw this since 2010 ( the 2011 run aside ).
Now while the Oline has new bodies, we are hurting on the other side of the ball. The poor drafting 2008-2012 put us here and that is on Reese and Co.
The 2nd Super Bowl win gave everyone an assumption that we were better than we were. ....which caused the rebuilding to start late.
The Giants were actually a better team the year after 2007.....
The organization didn't expect all the members of the 2008 lines to decline as quickly as they did. That's clear from the contracts given to guys like Snee, O'Hara and Kiwanuka. Sh!t happens, and Reese has been scrambling to plug holes for six years. Unfortunately, the roster has sprung holes elsewhere too, and the acquisitions that were feasible on the OL and DL haven't worked out ideally. I happen to like Reese a lot, but he has to wear the end results. In the area of transition from the 2008 lines to the next generation, those results haven't been great - especially on the OL. The resource commitment has been fine. The return on those investments has been disappointing.
I believe health, youth and learning curve were the biggest issues holding back the OL.
Whether Reese swung and missed on his latest OL choices or took too long to seriously invest resources is another matter that can be debated.
But one more time, he has invested serious resources into building the line the last couple years.
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Nothing but watch the line slowly deteriorate. And Beatty has been barely adequate.
built a 7-9 and 6-10 team b/c the LOS is awful?
When the HC is still asking "how about running the ball and stopping the run", take a hint. Warm bodies isn't paying attention as much as it's neglect.
Top half of 2nd round picks and signing one the top OG's on the market over the last 2 years is not throwing a bandaid or 'warm bodies' out there. Signing Beatty to a big contract to keep him at LT also has to be taken into account.
If you don't agree with the choices that's a different argument entirely.
Perhaps you are letting your emotions cloud your thought process here?
I believe health, youth and learning curve were the biggest issues holding back the OL.
Whether Reese swung and missed on his latest OL choices or took too long to seriously invest resources is another matter that can be debated.
But one more time, he has invested serious resources into building the line the last couple years.
When he had absolutely no other choice. George in PA makes a good point about the 2011 title giving a false sense of security. That line was on its last legs with no replacements coming up. Sorry Coach, it's not just the psychology of results. As others have said here, a run of 5 poor drafts with Will Beatty being the only even near serviceable OL produced is what got them here. Every single mid-low round fix attempted flopped. And it forced them to reach for Pugh in 2013. And throw a big contract at a guy like Schwartz who was a one year starter.
Nice spin on that disaster BB56! :-)
The Giants have never done very well without above having line play that is -well above - league average on both sides of the ball.
Therefor we ought to invest -well more- in both lines than the league average team does.
The most financially effective way to do this may be through the draft, since teams rarely let those -well above average- linesmen go, and when they do, they are very expensive.
I submit that:
We will want to protect our most important player in the remaining years of his stay here, as well as prep for a transition in such a way as the new QB wont get hammered while he gets into the system.
I submit that we have a tradition here that does not blend well with 'air it out' or 'shoot-out', high scoring games, chuck and duck.
As if Beatty has sucked his entire time here.
The organization didn't expect all the members of the 2008 lines to decline as quickly as they did. That's clear from the contracts given to guys like Snee, O'Hara and Kiwanuka. Sh!t happens, and Reese has been scrambling to plug holes for six years. Unfortunately, the roster has sprung holes elsewhere too, and the acquisitions that were feasible on the OL and DL haven't worked out ideally. I happen to like Reese a lot, but he has to wear the end results. In the area of transition from the 2008 lines to the next generation, those results haven't been great - especially on the OL. The resource commitment has been fine. The return on those investments has been disappointing.
Once again solid post B-cubed. However, I'd venture to say it's more than a couple posters that still have some trouble seeing this. The return on investment has been slightly sub-par thus far but we've seen signs of future improvement IMV.
Beatty had a strong bounce-back season while Pugh battled some nagging injury but had a great rookie campaign the season before. I also thought Richburg flashed a bit while trying to learn 2 positions as a rookie. Schwartz is clearly talented just needs to stay on the field.
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And Beatty has been barely adequate.
As if Beatty has sucked his entire time here.
Please tell us: In which season he was more than adequate? 2014 was arguably his best season and he was just that. Adequate. He was horrid in 2013. Adequate in 2012. Adequate for 10 games in 2011 before he got hurt. Couldn't crack the lineup full time in 2010 or 2009.
Yes we needed a center; the same center we also won a Super Bowl with.
The organization didn't expect all the members of the 2008 lines to decline as quickly as they did. That's clear from the contracts given to guys like Snee, O'Hara and Kiwanuka. Sh!t happens, and Reese has been scrambling to plug holes for six years. Unfortunately, the roster has sprung holes elsewhere too, and the acquisitions that were feasible on the OL and DL haven't worked out ideally. I happen to like Reese a lot, but he has to wear the end results. In the area of transition from the 2008 lines to the next generation, those results haven't been great - especially on the OL. The resource commitment has been fine. The return on those investments has been disappointing.
Good post Blogger. I think that's the right of it.
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on BBI as well:
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And Beatty has been barely adequate.
As if Beatty has sucked his entire time here.
Please tell us: In which season he was more than adequate? 2014 was arguably his best season and he was just that. Adequate. He was horrid in 2013. Adequate in 2012. Adequate for 10 games in 2011 before he got hurt. Couldn't crack the lineup full time in 2010 or 2009.
Your perception is off kilter.
The organization didn't expect all the members of the 2008 lines to decline as quickly as they did. That's clear from the contracts given to guys like Snee, O'Hara and Kiwanuka. Sh!t happens, and Reese has been scrambling to plug holes for six years. Unfortunately, the roster has sprung holes elsewhere too, and the acquisitions that were feasible on the OL and DL haven't worked out ideally. I happen to like Reese a lot, but he has to wear the end results. In the area of transition from the 2008 lines to the next generation, those results haven't been great - especially on the OL. The resource commitment has been fine. The return on those investments has been disappointing.
I couldn't agree with you more.
What confuses the issue for a lot of folks is that there was a long stretch where there wasn't much investment in the OL VIA THE DRAFT. I think these guys don't get the team-building philosophy of Reese, et al. These guys know that you aren't going to always hit on all your draft picks and when you develop a need, you have to overpay in FA for them.
This is why you must use premium selections on the most expensive FA positions. Holes at G and C cost an extra $10MM over a 4-5 yr contract (comparing FA costs to guys on rookie contracts) to get good talent. Holes at OT might cost $20-30MM in FA. Holes at DE, CB, and WR might cost you $50MM over the same period of time.
In other words, by selecting an elite WR with your top pick, you can get savings of $8-10MM/yr for their contract vs. what it would take to get a similar elite player in FA, even if they became available. You don't get that kind of return when you use your top picks on interior OL.
The cost of missing at WR, CB, DE, and DT in the draft is much higher than the cost of missing at OG and C.
Go check some stats. we got there yes, but Eli was taking a fucking pounding. They (OL) turned it up in the playoffs ( go figure ) but Eli was under pressure all year.
I guess the superbowl masked that weakness to the FO.
The issue that you correctly point out was miscalculating the longevity of the FA OL (Diehl, Snee, Baas) signed during the time when no draft picks were selected, not "neglecting the trenches".
From a fan perspective he did neglect the trenches for the 'impact' player(which in the case of HN and DW WERE good choices but for injury), or the DL replacement to let BarryC and LJ walk.
In a year where S draft class is at best OK, OL and DL are critical at #s9 and 40.
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In comment 12190267 RinR said:
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on BBI as well:
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And Beatty has been barely adequate.
As if Beatty has sucked his entire time here.
Please tell us: In which season he was more than adequate? 2014 was arguably his best season and he was just that. Adequate. He was horrid in 2013. Adequate in 2012. Adequate for 10 games in 2011 before he got hurt. Couldn't crack the lineup full time in 2010 or 2009.
Your perception is off kilter.
This seems to describe adequate to me. Not terrible, doesn't suck, but adequate:
"Will Beatty started all 16 games at left tackle. He rebounded from a terribly inconsistent 2013 and a fractured tibia that he suffered in the regular-season finale at the end of that year to have a mostly positive performance in 2014. Since Beatty was drafted in the 2nd round of the 2009 NFL Draft by the Giants, Beatty has had issues staying healthy, including a broken foot in 2010, a detached retina in 2011, a back injury that caused him to miss offseason work in 2012, and the broken leg in 2013. Beatty is a big lineman with long arms and a very good athlete. When on top of his game, Beatty can mirror and slide with the best pass rushers, and is athletic enough to pull and engage defenders at the second level in the run game. However, Beatty is more of a finesse player. He does not play with a lot of strength and power and he is not a very physical or aggressive blocker. Beatty still has consistency issues."
Once retirement or age kicked in, our developmental guys would have been ready to play and it would be a very good transition. In fact on the surface that goal shows some good planning ahead.
However things went south when you factor age, degradation of talent, and injury to the equation. That seemed to hit us quickly. So now we had to play our project picks, and they clearly weren't ready. Factor in system now. 5 and 7 step drop in Gilbrides system for project guys who still weren't ready to step in. Now you are fucked because you're franchise QB is relying on guys who haven't developed where they can start and be decent to good.
So now we have spend 1st and 2nd round picks on OL talent and spent in FA. That's just to get starters. We then spent to add backup depth too.
Basically we got caught because we assumed we had the time to develop players when in reality these guys were called upon earlier to play in a system where we need time.
So I am not sure if I would call it neglect. I think Reese had a vision, however due to the variables earlier, his plan failed. I don't think he accounted for those variables. Now we have to scramble and compensate. I do believe that led to the system change. We could not run our system with Gilbride and rely on 5 and 7 step drops. So that led to him being fired and changing our system where the ball gets out much quicker. The Wrs don't need a Phd now to execute their routes. More use of the RB in the passing game allows Eli to get rid of the ball. Also, moving the pocket, left and right. via roll out left, right, or sprint out left and right.
So in essence, this failed vision impacted a lot of things.
The OL has a mess for years. A few recent high draft choices still wasn't enough to fix the mess.
Debunking the myth? Go check stats and the 6-10 record.
In addition to everything the OP wrote about, they drfted Herman, Brewer, McCants, Mosley and Petrus. That's a lot of draft picks, and so far not one of those guys has become as much as a solid backup.
They're not trying to fill the line with street free agents. They're not just plugging in "warm bodies." They're expending a ton of resources -- but not solving the problem.
If it were inattention, you could tell yourself "Well, they haven't really been working on this problem, but we know that when the Giants front office attacks a problem, they solve it." The offensive line proves that's not true. That's alarming.
But on the DL resources is relative.
There have been a ton of studies...and draft pick/round correlates directly to bust status.
For example, a player picked at the end of the 2nd round has a 50% of becoming a starter. 50%, that's it. flip a coin in the second round basically.
The end of the third round it's 30%. So less than 1/3 of 3rd round picks will become starters.
So when you look at resources dedicated to a position, so much relies on drafting well, signing FA's while more expensive is probably the more sure way to go.
Chance of a bust in the NFL draft by round - ( New Window )
and any other number said Glenn would suck.
The Beatty hate is the absolute pinnacle of BBI's stupidity. Can someone please explain to me who our LT is if not for Beatty? Try to answer that for me. It's arguably the #2 hardest position to fill (after QB)....Yet, BBI wants Ogden for the price of Jeff Hatch. When Beatty was extended, the only other option in FA was Jake Long. How would you feel about that now?
You now what gets a GM fired? Not having a competent LT to protect you franchise QB. Some of you really need to get you head out of your ass.
We draft OL= BBI bitches
We spend on FA OL= BBI bitches
Sure, the OL fell off a cliff, and Reese may have been a step or two behind. It happens.
The higher the round the more you loose, (much more) if one player busts, in cash terms as well as pick value terms.
so the numbers level out.
In addition, in each trade down scenario, you X2 the number of players, which would x/y the risk (divide by 2, or cut in half) %# the risk factor since you have 2x the players.
well, if you trade down, in a random example, you get the trade down player AND an extra 3rd rounder.
so now, you ca fairly call that a '3rd round risk group' and directly compare it with the single one you had.
so your' 30% chance of making it past 4 years grows to a 60% chance.
(I just made up the % chances, not bothering to read the link as the laptop blows up every two seconds on links)
What better alternatives doc? If they were better they would still be here and we wouldn't be having this thread.
The higher the round the more you loose, (much more) if one player busts, in cash terms as well as pick value terms.
so the numbers level out.
In addition, in each trade down scenario, you X2 the number of players, which would x/y the risk (divide by 2, or cut in half) %# the risk factor since you have 2x the players.
That is true in building a team, but not in expending resources on a position.
If you tell me the Giants place a priority on position X - look they used two 3rd round picks there. I'd say not they don't expend a lot of resources there.
FA $$ is the best indicator and then 1st round picks.
In WW2 the Germans invested X monies in the worlds greatest battle ship, The Bismark I think it was called.
Possibly the greatest battleship ever, since, as the war progressed, it was realized that that mode was becoming archaic.
In any case, for the cost of X, they could have had:
X6 Cruisers,
X30 Submarines or
X300 fighter and bomber aircraft.
(rough example)
One day, The Bismark was hit in the rudder by a little freaking old fashioned British Bi-plane bomb. Later that day it was ruined by an odd assortment of British vessels, none of which cost even 10 or 20% of what the Bismark cost.
Yes, it was a brilliant and terrifying ship, and terrorized the world with its potential, until they woke up and smelled the coffee.
I give you the first round of the NFL draft, not always, but this is the risk.
Point being- We don't know what TC's role is in all this.
Point being- We don't know what TC's role is in all this.
Shawn Andrews. He could play but had chronic back issues and never played again after that run with the Giants. And he was receiving epidorals (I hope I spelled that right, don't want to piss off arcarsenal) throughout the season.
The same is said for TE. They had thoughts about lesser FAs they were confident they could get production out of, in addition to having confidence they could get what they needed out of their own diamonds in the rough. Some of those moves worked and others didn't. But, they clearly had their own thoughts on the position.
Again, the same can be said about DL.
They may have chosen not to build certain positions through Round 1 picks or Day 1 and 2 picks. But, that doesn't mean they didn't bring in guys they thought would address their need within the limitations of the cap.
Sorry, as a GM you have to show results. You can't let your OL age in a league that relies on passing and therefore protection. If you are going to bolster your OL mostly with middle round picks, you do not have the luxury to miss on those picks.
If this season fails and JR is shown the door with the HC, JR's failure to produce an NFL quality OL over the last 2 seasons will be a primary reason why.
for some positions, that might be between the late 2nd and mid 4th rounds.
Point being- We don't know what TC's role is in all this.
You're referring to Sean Locklear, who everyone here as a consensus agreed played better than Diehl - but yet Coughlin still benched him when Diehl became healthy again.
yet some believe in a "myth" the Giants haven't neglected the OL.
A bunch of mid/late round stiffs in addition to the dozens of journeymen since new CBA allowed 90 players into camp.
Let's look at the depth
LT - Who takes Beatty's spot if he goes down? He was average coming off a miserable season. What's next?
LG - If Schwartz goes down does Richburg slide over again?
C - CFL star is Richburg's back up. Now that's paying attention (good lord). That's all that's left.
RG - Only 1% of the cap allocated toward a veteran starter who loses leverage on his first step forward like a 0-tech NT and nothing is behind him.
RT - now that's paying attention. Just don't hurt b/c Brown might be the replacement.
If the Giants draft an offensive lineman in Round 4 this year some might believe that's paying attention like yesteryear.
Would hate to see some fans perception of not paying attention or neglecting the OL if the current state isn't just that.
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When O'Hara went down and Seubert went to C....Who was the RT that replace Diehl for a bit? Forget the name.
Point being- We don't know what TC's role is in all this.
You're referring to Sean Locklear, who everyone here as a consensus agreed played better than Diehl - but yet Coughlin still benched him when Diehl became healthy again.
Yes! Thank you.
An interesting exercise for someone to do...Go back to 2007 or whatever JRs first draft is considered... Look at our roster and who was taken by the Giants and who you would have taken that year instead, and why. To say Unger is a great OL and Sintim sucked (both true) is looking at them as of today, not as of then.
I Dallas took ODB last year and we tood Martin...Both All Pros it would have been "how'd JR let them take ODB? he's an idiot, we should have taken him at 12"
I think I briefly looked once and the best I could come up with was like Winston Justice (that would have been good to do, right).
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In comment 12190427 drkenneth said:
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When O'Hara went down and Seubert went to C....Who was the RT that replace Diehl for a bit? Forget the name.
Point being- We don't know what TC's role is in all this.
You're referring to Sean Locklear, who everyone here as a consensus agreed played better than Diehl - but yet Coughlin still benched him when Diehl became healthy again.
Yes! Thank you.
Locklear was 2012. Seubert retired after 2010. It was Shawn Andrews in 2010
But only TC thought he couldn't play.
But only TC thought he couldn't play.
Atlanta took a flyer on Locklear only a few months after he snapped his leg in half. The results weren't surprising.
An interesting exercise for someone to do...Go back to 2007 or whatever JRs first draft is considered... Look at our roster and who was taken by the Giants and who you would have taken that year instead, and why. To say Unger is a great OL and Sintim sucked (both true) is looking at them as of today, not as of then.
I Dallas took ODB last year and we tood Martin...Both All Pros it would have been "how'd JR let them take ODB? he's an idiot, we should have taken him at 12"
I think I briefly looked once and the best I could come up with was like Winston Justice (that would have been good to do, right).
Bullshit. Wiki is your source? Unger was projected to be a 2nd rounder. Where he went. He also played all over the OL in college . A supped value to the Giants
Reese has drafted three times the amount of wide receivers in the first 3 rounds of the draft as he has offensive linemen. Pugh the only first rounder and he was a reach due to need.
Reese values other positions in the draft more. He's obviously willing to put mediocre players There. He let Linval Joseph go for a more reasonable contract than he gave Beatty and he's the better player. One can argue all they want but Reese values some postions more than others.
It's in his actions.
Enough.
I remember being surprised as to how few 1st and 2nd rounders there were.
Again, who were the 2 great lineman benched so Diehl and Snee could play? And why aren't they in the lineup now as part of a good OL?
That's actually a good analogy.
We were spoiled with the stability of that line for years. As another poster mentioned, Reese tried to invest mid-round developmental picks to slowly replenish that group as they started to wear down while devoting resources to the higher impact positions. Problem was, we missed on just about all of those post 3rd-round picks (which happens with frequency w/mid-round picks but you would figured by the 5-6 drafted, 1 or 2 should have panned out).
If you want to blame the strategy or the mid-round players he chose, fine. Perhaps, he should have drafted a lineman or two higher in the draft earlier.
What we were left with the past few years was having to plug some holes via FA and investing multiple premium picks in the draft. We also got hit with alot of injury across the board including OL.
However, I think the last two years he has invested premium picks (1 top half of 2nd rounder, 1 first rounder, and one of top OGs in FA) and that was to add to our highly paid 2nd round LT).
These guys haven't had a chance to blossom yet for a couple reasons. One was learning a brand new offense and more injury. I think this year will be a great indicator of what we have b/c the system learning curve is out of the way and the young guys on the OL are now 1 year older (and hopefully the injuries will normalize a bit).
So, you are what you are... a soft team up front. The fact that this has been the case (especially the offensive side) for a few years now means we have not addressed this problem EFFECTIVELY.
Enough.
bingo
And, does anybody here know what the medical people told Reese about Snee and Baas coming back from these injuries? Does anybody think that Reese ignored the medical people who were telling him not to count on Snee and Baas or do you think Reese forgot to ask? It's easy to criticize the moves afterwards because you know how it turned out but if the medical people gave them the go-ahead, why would it have been a mistake to rely on them coming back?
In terms of the draft, you can get good OL later in the draft. It's been done often; pretty sure Green Bay's OL is composed mostly of late round picks and it's a good line. If either Brewer or Mosley play to expectations, the OL is in much better shape. I'm not sure if they were just bad picks or if injuries ruined their careers but there was no neglect in Reese's moves which brings me back to the question. What GM has not screwed up on draft picks?
So for argument sake if the hit% around the league for rounds 1-3 is around 40-45% Reese is somewhere between 50-55% ( with round 1 as his bell cow at above 80%).
Obviously rounds 4-7 is much lower but let's say if the avg hit% there is 20-25%, he is at 15-20%
Again just throwing numbers out there but you get the gist.
He has been really amazing in round 1 consistently picking up highly talented players (and it has been said as a GM with all his other duties, this is the round he is most involved in now).
A few of those first round picks have had shorter career due to freak injury unrelated to previous medical history which can't be counted against him.
they reached and relyed on 5th and 6th round OL picks they clearly believed they could easily find another 5th round probowler like they did with david diehl,guys like brewer busted out they blew another 4th round pick to trade up and take a backup QB that could have been used on another OL they were is clear need of
they did a poor job of drafting for several years and many of the players that did work out,turned out to be very injury prone and not at all durable, kenny phillips,kevin boss,david tyree,steve smith,david wilson,travis beckum and others all out of the league in a very short career and others i cant rememeber at the moment
then there has been a high number of busts mostly at WR with moss(how they traded a pick to move up for) ,barden,jerrnigan,sash,grieson,dallard,dodge and a few busts that still stick to the roster like robinson and ruben randle who hasnt developed into the player they hoped but still has a slim chance to turn things around,another premium 2nd round pick
when reese has hit it he has been spectacular jacobs,bradshaw,odel beckham,jpp,webster,hankins,diehl,snee tuck,osi(early on),cofield and possibly others i forgot to list here have all have been major contributors to 2 superbowl titles which he rightly has recieved huge credit for
the problem we have with reese is that his drafts are boom or bust and the middle of the draft where your depth and special teams guys are supposed to come from hasnt and they have been forced to use FA resources to shore up these decifecentcies year on year and it has hurt them where they have relied upon the likes of robinson and brewer they have let them down
The hit % in those rounds around the league is very low. As I said in the post above, he may have missed a little more in those rounds but it's not an alarming percentage less (and his top 3 rounds more than make up for it).
they reached and relyed on 5th and 6th round OL picks they clearly believed they could easily find another 5th round probowler like they did with david diehl,guys like brewer busted out they blew another 4th round pick to trade up and take a backup QB that could have been used on another OL they were is clear need of
they did a poor job of drafting for several years and many of the players that did work out,turned out to be very injury prone and not at all durable, kenny phillips,kevin boss,david tyree,steve smith,david wilson,travis beckum and others all out of the league in a very short career and others i cant rememeber at the moment
then there has been a high number of busts mostly at WR with moss(how they traded a pick to move up for) ,barden,jerrnigan,sash,grieson,dallard,dodge and a few busts that still stick to the roster like robinson and ruben randle who hasnt developed into the player they hoped but still has a slim chance to turn things around,another premium 2nd round pick
when reese has hit it he has been spectacular jacobs,bradshaw,odel beckham,jpp,webster,hankins,diehl,snee tuck,osi(early on),cofield and possibly others i forgot to list here have all have been major contributors to 2 superbowl titles which he rightly has recieved huge credit for
the problem we have with reese is that his drafts are boom or bust and the middle of the draft where your depth and special teams guys are supposed to come from hasnt and they have been forced to use FA resources to shore up these decifecentcies year on year and it has hurt them where they have relied upon the likes of robinson and brewer they have let them down
I think the issue here is semantics. I think what some people mean to say is that he neglected the line IN THE DRAFT.
There is no question that the OL was neglected if you're only looking at the draft. Of course that has changed recently, but for several years there was little to no OL selections, which is the very definition of neglect. One can argue about why, but you cannot argue with years of few/no selections in the draft.
Yet the argument others (including myself) are making is that neglecting the OL in the draft is NOT the same thing as neglecting the OL altogether.
When you manage the cap you have to decide where to spend your dollars. You want to find WR, pass rusher, CB, and QB in FA? Be prepared to get less than elite talent at top dollar prices. You better hit with your other selections because these positions cost a lot.
The reason for selecting WR frequently in the top of the rounds is so that you don't have to sign an expensive one via FA. You can then spend your money on OL.
Here's an exercise for you: Calculate the percent of the cap the Giants dedicated to the OL each year for the past 10 years, then compare it to the rest of the league. Want to make a case that the OL has been neglected still? If you find that we're consistently in the bottom part of the league then that's evidence that could support your argument.
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In comment 12190225 Victor in CT said:
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Nothing but watch the line slowly deteriorate. And Beatty has been barely adequate.
built a 7-9 and 6-10 team b/c the LOS is awful?
When the HC is still asking "how about running the ball and stopping the run", take a hint. Warm bodies isn't paying attention as much as it's neglect.
Top half of 2nd round picks and signing one the top OG's on the market over the last 2 years is not throwing a bandaid or 'warm bodies' out there. Signing Beatty to a big contract to keep him at LT also has to be taken into account.
If you don't agree with the choices that's a different argument entirely.
Perhaps you are letting your emotions cloud your thought process here?
These people don't even have a "thought process" so I'd have to go w/ choice a).