"Eli can't throw laying on his back"

put can you achieve and actually prove it?

.

not everything gets posted on BBI for a number of reasons. You may believe what you will.

In comment 12194861 JonC said:

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NYG was nervous another team would trade up in front of them to pick OB.

Yes that is very true also.

I remember reading about Beckham going to the Jets or later. I remember Phil mentioning him. I don't remember anyone suggesting Beckham to the Giants here or anywhere else till a week before the draft

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I really like Devon Kennard... Amtoft : 4/30/2014 12:37 pm : link total team player. They needed him at DE he played DE... They needed him at OLB he played OLB... They needed him at ILB he played the Mike. I actually think his best position is at ILB. He is under developed due to moving so many times, but he was solid where ever he went. Put him at ILB or OLB or DE and let him develop into a very good player.

It is hard to archive back because it only goes so far.

.

In comment 12194877 Headhunter said:

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put can you achieve and actually prove it?

Headhunter how many posts do you want? Micky showed one from 4/1/2014 over a month before the draft!

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Here's one micky : 2:08 pm : link : reply Quote: It sounds like, if he's still on the board 4/01/14 Micky:12:42 pm. That Giants will take LSU's wr. Odell Beckham Jr.

You guys win. We were discussing Beckham to the Giants well before the draft

In comment 12194874 JonC said:

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I'd agree the OL absolutely needs more talent, but it makes no sense to force a pick at #9, especially. Draft into the inherent strengths of the draft, no reaching at #9.

Agreed. But what would your reaction be if they waited to the 4th round or later to address the OL?

In comment 12194882 Headhunter said:

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I remember reading about Beckham going to the Jets or later. I remember Phil mentioning him. I don't remember anyone suggesting Beckham to the Giants here or anywhere else till a week before the draft

I already showed you over two weeks that McShay had him going to the Giants and Kiper had him going 10th. Micky showed that there was talk of OBJ to the Giants over a month in advance. You are wrong so just stop it.

are you a moron?

In comment 12194889 Headhunter said:

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You guys win. We were discussing Beckham to the Giants well before the draft

Sorry made my last post before you posted this and posted it wrong. It was just under 2 weeks before the draft.

for snapping

So be it, I want the best players. This roster as is will not contend for a SB this season, and that's the point no fan wants to concede before a season even begins. grin. But, it's the most likely reality, imv. Bill2 has been all over the dynamics in other threads, I think he's got the pulse. Draft the best players and put them in the pipeline, keep building.

In comment 12194899 Headhunter said:

Quote:

for snapping

No worries... Our replies were happening while posts were happening. It is all good.

Let's just draft a couple of studs and we will do less bickering and more smiling

is that some view a stud OL and more worth putting in the pipeline then a stud WR.
position value is not an exact science after QB.
one can argue DB is most relevant... another DE... ask the pats and seahawks about WR... there is no exact answer.
just because its a passing NFL... doesn't mean WR is more valuable ---- separately just because our OL sux... does mean OL is the more valuable.
I whole heartedly believe that a pro bowl potential OL is a game changer for the NYG for the next 10 years. we miss Kmac, we miss Snee. seeing what power in those spots offers... to me is more value then a WR.
is that accurate? maybe not... but I believe the NYG if Scherff is on the board will go with that view. and anyone saying its need based... I would disagree- I think its value.

In comment 12194912 Headhunter said:

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Let's just draft a couple of studs and we will do less bickering and more smiling

I am down with that!

There's no blue chip stud OL in this crop, and it's likely at least two WRs will carry higher grades than the OL.

those two WRs will probably be gone before #9. Then, you have to root against potentially drafting a DE, which doesn't pass the sniff test either unless the OL grade is superior.

is he is the best OL out there but not at number 9. No OL is top 10 worthy. Now if they slightly reach to grab him or another Olineman, I think that hurts the team down the road. Outside of a QB, you have to take the highest rated player in your row if he is clearly higher rated than Schreff or any other Olineman. You don't get to pick number 9 often based on the Giants history. They have to maximize the opportunity

In comment 12194919 hitdog42 said:

Quote:

is that some view a stud OL and more worth putting in the pipeline then a stud WR. position value is not an exact science after QB. one can argue DB is most relevant... another DE... ask the pats and seahawks about WR... there is no exact answer. just because its a passing NFL... doesn't mean WR is more valuable ---- separately just because our OL sux... does mean OL is the more valuable. I whole heartedly believe that a pro bowl potential OL is a game changer for the NYG for the next 10 years. we miss Kmac, we miss Snee. seeing what power in those spots offers... to me is more value then a WR. is that accurate? maybe not... but I believe the NYG if Scherff is on the board will go with that view. and anyone saying its need based... I would disagree- I think its value.

It sounds likes you believe that this is a one round draft?

and direct heat through the middle of the line with an inside rush. Walton is gone. Problem solved?

Sack/Hit numbers don't take into account the number of times Eli was rushed to get rid of the ball without his feet set.

Agholor from USC in the 2nd so I am hoping that they take a DE or OL in round 1.

In comment 12194966 SHO'NUFF said:

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and direct heat through the middle of the line with an inside rush. Walton is gone. Problem solved? Sack/Hit numbers don't take into account the number of times Eli was rushed to get rid of the ball without his feet set.

I think Walton was a major part of the problem.

They don't tally that for any qb. Other qb's have to throw the ball away to avoid the rush too. Some qb's such as Wilson and Romo get hit and sacked more than Eli despite being more mobile and throwing fewer passes. You don't think they have to rush to get the ball away?

Eli doesn't get enough credit for throwing the ball away and taking a hit on his completion percentage stats. The stats for sacks and QB hits remain respectable, as well, because of Eli.

take a sack, throw it away, or force a throw. If you force a throw you end up with two results: 1. great pass 2. bad pass-results in INT.

For Eli you tend to get more of the throw the ball away OR force a pass which results in the 2 outcomes.

In my opinion Eli doesn't get credit for it because you tend to get forced pass resulting in INT which then they want to credit his decision making. It's ironic because when he does make plays, it was the same decision making that resulted in a good play. Take the Tyree play. Forced pass category I call it. It resulted in a good play. It could have been an INT, but in my opinion the decision making was the same an effort to make a play rather than take a sack.

It's the same bullshit when Eli tried to throw left handed against the Panthers to Boss in the end zone and it resulted in an int. Eli won't get credit for anything like throwing the ball away or anything like that. People will focus on the forced passes which turn into INTs and then rip on his decision making.

as you should most subjective stats but as of week 14 last season, the ProFootball Focus crew rated the Giants' line as the 14th best pass blockers unit in the league. And this was before they played the Redskins (1 sack), Rams (1 sack), and Eagles (ZERO sacks) in the following weeks.

So perhaps how badly the line started last year is influencing our memories about how badly they finished. I feel that by the end of the season, the Giants were closer to an average line then most here feel.
Link - ( New Window )

on 3rd&1 and 4th & inches

In comment 12195085 Semipro Lineman said:

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as you should most subjective stats but as of week 14 last season, the ProFootball Focus crew rated the Giants' line as the 14th best pass blockers unit in the league. And this was before they played the Redskins (1 sack), Rams (1 sack), and Eagles (ZERO sacks) in the following weeks. So perhaps how badly the line started last year is influencing our memories about how badly they finished. I feel that by the end of the season, the Giants were closer to an average line then most here feel. Link - ( New Window )

Well two things. Once is that as the season goes you get comfortable in the new system so you expect the offense as a whole to get better. The other is that towards the end of the season we are playing weaker teams.

I think year 2 will show everyone how good this OL actually is in terms of pass blocking. Run blocking they certainly need to get better. Tired of losing yards running the ball.

were only about needing a real good nasty run blocking guard. If we get one, just one, then with these starters we have an average NFL Oline.

than the OL truly hitting their stride at the end of last season and coming into form straight away this season. We need the offense firing on all cylinders especially if the defense is getting acquainted with a new system.

In comment 12195098 Headhunter said:

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on 3rd&1 and 4th & inches

Or maybe..just maybe.. throw the ball instead of trying to run every single time.

did better against bad teams narrative doesn't explain how they managed to give up only two sacks each against the great defenses of Seattle and 49er's in consecutive weeks. Eli also threw for 280 yards those games despite have a limited running attack. The line (which badly needs an upgrade) wasn't the train wreck some are making it out to be.

P.S. I know we can all find stats that support our side of the argument but I think some of the answers to the usefulness of stats we disagree with are too dismissive and don't give enough credit where it is due. The good play against bad teams line isn't used to dismissed the Eagles success but it is used to downplay positive elements (besides Beckham Jr.) about the Giants last year.

They couldn't run the ball and despite low sack numbers Eli was hit, harassed and hurried regularly. They were noticeably suspect on the interior. The pocked was caved in regularly not allowing Eli any kind of a comfort zone. They failed to open up running lanes and were terrible in short yardage situations. It baffles me that people think they can spin this as a group on the cusp of respectability. They were flat out bad.

To date the only personnel change in the group is a CFL standout that is probably going to switch positions to OG. That isn't enough to get this group where it needs to be imo. There is still time in free agency and the draft to do more. I'd be stunned if we don't do more to improve our O-Line.

In comment 12195171 Semipro Lineman said:

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did better against bad teams narrative doesn't explain how they managed to give up only two sacks each against the great defenses of Seattle and 49er's in consecutive weeks. Eli also threw for 280 yards those games despite have a limited running attack. The line (which badly needs an upgrade) wasn't the train wreck some are making it out to be. P.S. I know we can all find stats that support our side of the argument but I think some of the answers to the usefulness of stats we disagree with are too dismissive and don't give enough credit where it is due. The good play against bad teams line isn't used to dismissed the Eagles success but it is used to downplay positive elements (besides Beckham Jr.) about the Giants last year.

Well that's the thing. People want to use stats, but the way I go about is try to think of the various passing concepts used for each game. I did this after the game so by now I forgot the exact details. I know the 1st Eagles game shit show stood out due to the 5 and 7 step drop backs used. The playacting looked different than the previous games.

In general, we ran:
X and Z hot
checked down to the RB.
curls,
comebacks
hitches.

3 step drops: hitches, curls, slants and different "crossing patterns" specifically levels and Mesh.

So you think of that and then use the stats to see what the numbers were. So you see 2 sacks or zero and someone may say, damn our OL is pretty good in pass protection.

However, if I am running those concepts I listed. Hits and pressures should be the only issue I face, unless teams are getting to me in situations like 3rd and long when I have to run 5 or 7 step passes or a player gets beat badly OR an RB doesn't execute his assignment in pass pro.

Then you gotta figure Eli would rather throw it away or force a throw rather than take a sack. So that sack number could be low, but what else is going on? Was Eli pressured? If so, rather than take a sack he could have forced a throw which: ended up as a great pass OR INT, in which people will say, "Fuck Eli, why did you force it?!"

So he is not getting sacked, but perhaps there was continuous pressure on him for that game.

It all depends. You got to re-watch the game and see what we were trying to do.

The basic stuff like the offense would get better as the season goes on. And towards the end of the season we played weaker teams so that can make the offense AND defense look good.

In comment 12195171 Semipro Lineman said:
[quote] did better against bad teams narrative doesn't explain how they managed to give up only two sacks each against the great defenses of Seattle and 49er's in consecutive weeks. Eli also threw for 280 yards those games despite have a limited running attack. The line (which badly needs an upgrade) wasn't the train wreck some are making it out to be.

P.S. I know we can all find stats that support our side of the argument but I think some of the answers to the usefulness of stats we disagree with are too dismissive and don't give enough credit where it is due. The good play against bad teams line isn't used to dismissed the Eagles success but it is used to downplay positive elements (besides Beckham Jr.) about the Giants last year. [/quote

Truthfully Jacksonville actually dominated our O-line pretty good both against the run and with their pass rush. I think they got after us more than Seattle or San fran. Also you can't discount the fact that Eli had one of his BEST statistical seasons ...facts are facts.

of Eli's first year in the new offense vs the old offense. His numbers are amongst the top of his career (2nd in yards passing, TDs and (I think) TD%, YPA, YPG).

I'd also like to see a thread about Coughlin's clusterfucks this year regarding his stubbornness to keep sticking with the run and the perplexing passing gameplan vs. Philadelphia (first game).

The Giants knew they couldn't pass protect, especially against the good teams. So the offense became short routes and three step drops. Sacks don't happen. The problem is we couldn't run either, so all the D did was sit on short routes. If we are going to get back to being a contender, we need our OL to be able to do something well against the good defenses. I'm not looking for miracles and being able to run and control the LOS, but one would be nice. In 2011 our OL could give Eli time against anyone. Eli could hit receivers, which would in turn opened a little running game because the D sent more people trying to get to Eli.

the reason they went to short drops because they knew they couldn't pass protect? Yeah right, the 3 step drops had nothing to do with McAdoo's designed system. Originally it was designed for a 7 step drop but he abandoned it for a 3 step when he realized they couldn't pass block. Is that what went down?

Have thrown in deeper drops. The Packers use all kinds of drops and patterns, not just 3 step slants (for example). They we are doing the best they could with what they thought they had.

for 1 second.

Acts like Eli is getting wrecked out there, we have an average offensive line unit.

Eli put up decent numbers and we had a crazy amount of injuries. Offensive lines get better the longer they play together so they should be an improved unit.

How is having the third worst yards per carry comparable to an average offensive line? We ran for 3.6 yards a pop. That's just awful.

I watched every offensive snap of every game and I didn't see a comfortable Eli Manning back there. The new system helped by getting the ball out faster than at any time in his career. He was still getting banged around and pushed off his spot regularly.

The pass blocking was better than the run blocking but how could it have been any worse?

as it is on passing plays.

Odell was a great pick, but we need another Guard and Tackle that can create some leverage and space for the RBs...

With the talent on the roster now, we need to establish the pass in order to run effectively. Spreading the defense and playing with only 6 or 7 in the box makes life a lot easier. We have to find out if the RB`s we have are elusive enough to thrive in this environment. They must be able to make 1 or 2 people miss and they should be ok. A good coordinator calls plays to the strength of the team. Prior to last season, I feel that our OC was trying to fit the players into his scheme not the scheme to his players ability. Just saying.

In comment 12195582 Bob Snow said:

Quote:

Acts like Eli is getting wrecked out there, we have an average offensive line unit. Eli put up decent numbers and we had a crazy amount of injuries. Offensive lines get better the longer they play together so they should be an improved unit.

On point. If I had to guess since Giants for the most part don't have the flashy big mauler types on the line like Dallas some are really under-estimating this group.

This line has a good chance to be significantly better than the 2011 bunch with some health and more time to gel in year 2 of MacAdoo's offense.

and they do have a great line,but let's not make their line out to be more than it is. All Pro Tyron Smith gets beaten by JPP from time to time. It is not the end all be all.The Giants line is mediocre, but Tyron Smith would get ripped here for allowing JPP to beat him

All you guys deciding whether to pick for need or the best player available are not asking the right question. Let's say a OG and WR are available at number nine with comparable talent ranking. Now you have to figure in what the average salary of that position player is in the league. Remember rookie contracts save teams millions of dollars. So now if you can get a probowl guard for 6 million a year in free agency, why pick one at number 9 when you can get a probowl receiver who commands 12 million per year on the cheap with a rookie contract. So many more pieces to this puzzle than who is the best player or best fit.