"Eli can't throw laying on his back"

Eli had no issue getting the ball to OBJ last year.. The new offense is different from Gilbrides which is predicated on getting the ball out quickly.. that alone is going to reduce the number of sacks.. Now if you want to talk about the RUN game.. then lets talk about that.. but lets stop with the whole.. Eli cant throw laying on his back mantra because the facts dont bear that out..

of the team, as opposed to a weakness.

LT: Beatty
LG: Laken Tomlinson (Rd 2)
C: Richburg
RG: Schwartz
RT: Pugh

Backups: Reynolds, Jones, Jerry, Hickson (Rd 4)

but without decent run blocking we're a 1-dimensional offense. We won only 6 games.

but we need 1-2 more upgrades to be solid imo

In comment 12194273 Big Blue '56 said:

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but we need 1-2 more upgrades to be solid imo

on the Ol..That's what I was referring to in this case

In comment 12194270 CT Charlie said:

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but without decent run blocking we're a 1-dimensional offense. We won only 6 games.

Giants were a one dimensional offense in 2011 and won a superbowl...

End of grammatical interlude.

can lie especially since they don't take into considering pressures or the fact in our system we are trying to get the ball out quickly. One game I noticed we tried going to 5 and 7 step drop to take adv. of the Eagles secondary and we got fucking owned. I think our OL improved but in the end we still had to change the system because our OL was so poor we couldn't execute the Gilbride system anymore. So, he was the scapegoat and got fir...err.. retired.

Our OL I blieve can get better in it's 2nd year. We are getting the ball otu quickly and moving the pocket which is a good thing. Our run blocking sucks though, especially 3rd or 4th and short situations. It would be nice if we stopped trying to run the fucking ball every time.

Let's see what happens year 2.

In comment 12194268 Pep22 said:

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of the team, as opposed to a weakness. LT: Beatty LG: Laken Tomlinson (Rd 2) C: Richburg RG: Schwartz RT: Pugh Backups: Reynolds, Jones, Jerry, Hickson (Rd 4)

Who is Hickson? Sean Hickey from Cuse? That's a remote thrower 4th rounder if that's who you mean...

But overall, I agree. 4 of the 5 line positions are set, and we have a couple guys who should be solid enough backups in Jerry, Newhouse, hopefully Jones. We do still need to get another starter though - whether we take someone in the first two rounds or if we can find someone solid at the back end of free agency. Additionally, we need to make sure these top 4 stay healthy, otherwise the whole thing could fall apart quickly.

Beatty, Pugh, Richburg didn't play all that well last year, and Schwartz only played two games, how can you say they are only one player away from being among the best?

Also, would it be better to draft a solid but nothing special offensive lineman at #9 or an All-Pro defensive end or wide receiver?

was the running game -- the Cowboys had a dominant running game -- and the Giants really had a weak running game

Sacks by the way - don't tell the full story -- you have to include hurries and pressures in your analysis

But the Cowboys Front line was much better than the Giants -- I don't care what stats you throw up there - if you can;t get a running game going - that's on your front line.

Somebody else sees the light. Good thread.

everything I read has pro bowl type commentary at OG for the iowa kid.

that's a pretty odd hypothetical

In comment 12194289 AnishPatel said:

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can lie especially since they don't take into considering pressures or the fact in our system we are trying to get the ball out quickly. One game I noticed we tried going to 5 and 7 step drop to take adv. of the Eagles secondary and we got fucking owned. I think our OL improved but in the end we still had to change the system because our OL was so poor we couldn't execute the Gilbride system anymore. So, he was the scapegoat and got fir...err.. retired. Our OL I blieve can get better in it's 2nd year. We are getting the ball otu quickly and moving the pocket which is a good thing. Our run blocking sucks though, especially 3rd or 4th and short situations. It would be nice if we stopped trying to run the fucking ball every time. Let's see what happens year 2.

Getting the ball out quickly helps the offensive line but it all works together.as the season progressed Eli took more deep drops and threw the ball down the field more. To your point about the 1st Eagle game they sacked us 8 times but in the rematch they had 0 and Eli threw for over 400 yards

There are no givens. Derek Brown was supposed to be an All Pro. Jarrod Bunch was supposed to be a monster.

If your scouts say the OL has a higher grade than the WR, you take the OL.

But if they say the WR has a much higher grade than the OL, you take the OL.

Why? Because the higher graded guy is less likely to be a bust and more likely to be a special player.

Giants didn't "need" a linebacker in 1981 or 1984.

it's about running away from the defenders quite frequently to get the pass off, since, quite often, someone on the OL and TE let their man get by.
Watch how COMFORTABLE Brady(and any other QB) is behind a line he is CONFIDENT will hold up until his receiver gets open; and remember how uncomfortable TB was in 42.
You can see it in his stats, and have watched him enough that when he is confident early because of his OL, his timing and passes are better.

But if they say the WR has a much higher grade than the OL, you take the WR.

solely for need in the first round, especially top 10 is how bad teams stay bad.

will have a much higher grade. I think it will be close enough that we take OL.
I also don't see us taking White, only Cooper. and not the Louiville kid either.

or stop the run. Ellis is a big help on the DL stopping the run. I hope the #9 pick is an excellent OL or DL. But if Cooper is there and he's #1 on their board they have to take him. The other WR's pass for me. I don't know any more than I've read here but from what I've read I hope Beasley is our pick. It's still 6 months from the 1st game but I've seen nothing so far to make me think they're going to be any better running the ball. So if they take an OL in round 1 or 2 I hope he's a mauler. They're missing that on the OL.

In comment 12194295 Eric from BBI said:

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Beatty, Pugh, Richburg didn't play all that well last year, and Schwartz only played two games, how can you say they are only one player away from being among the best? Also, would it be better to draft a solid but nothing special offensive lineman at #9 or an All-Pro defensive end or wide receiver?

I think Beatty played fairly well certainly much better that 2013,Pugh and Richburg I see as ascending player that should continue to get better

there is no doubt about that.. but the Eli on his back thing is overrated and overstated.

Yes the Giants need to improve the OL. But you dont pass up top rated talent.. They can get a quality guard in round 2. There is no doubt about that.

Yeah but we still moved the pocket and created space that way. So it was not only 5 steps but moving Eli around left and right. That helped create space to allow us to throw deep. Elis OL wasn't a total shit show. They gave him time so he was able to go down field. There were also times when no one got open. On replay, they showed everyone was covered and no body was able to get open. That's on the Wr talent.

Yes, because we adjusted the second time, which I knew they would. I didn't expect them to run the same gameplan. Not after that shit show game.

Pass protection I am not that worried about. Run blocking I don't trust.

Look at the games and separate the good defenses from the bad. the offense definitely padded their stats against the crap teams. Every time we played a decent (read average) to good defense we couldn't do a thing. We couldn't run and Eli had no time to throw. The quick pass offense and Eli's experience masked a lot of potential sacks. However when the defense knows you only have 3 seconds to trow, and have to do 3 step drops, it eliminates the mid range to deeper passing game. Combine this with zero running game and it makes the defenses job very easy.

This is a case where stats reviewed after the fact are clouding the picture. What people saw during the games is the reality. We need to move the ball against everyone, not just the defenses ranked 22-32. Otherwise we will stay 8-8. or 7-9. With no offense, our defense is on the field all the time. I actually think we had a number of games where the D played well, but wore down because they were out there the whole time.

really killed us. It has for a few years now, actually. Our 3.6 ypc was 30th in the league. For a team that was top 10 in the league in attempts, that is a killer. They would typically throw away downs with ineffective run plays series after series.

I am not saying we must go OL @9, because I don't believe that. But the OLine is a big weakness for this team.

and at some point, like many teams are able too... we have to find a WR in the mid rounds. we lucked into cruz-

is that the qb is under siege. Even under KG's offense. Eli was never among the top 40% of qb's hit or sacked. Some of you need to pay attention when other teams play-their qb's get hit too. Not that any of that will get noticed by the three yard pass and a cloud of dust contingent here.

And thanks to the OP for exploding the myth of the dominant Dallas o-line. Romo got the snot beat out of him last season even with Murray and ended up with broken ribs.

In comment 12194268 Pep22 said:

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of the team, as opposed to a weakness. LT: Beatty LG: Laken Tomlinson (Rd 2) C: Richburg RG: Schwartz RT: Pugh Backups: Reynolds, Jones, Jerry, Hickson (Rd 4)

Please give me Tomlinson. Dude is going to be a stud guard for a decade.

In comment 12194340 PatersonPlank said:

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Look at the games and separate the good defenses from the bad. the offense definitely padded their stats against the crap teams. Every time we played a decent (read average) to good defense we couldn't do a thing. We couldn't run and Eli had no time to throw. The quick pass offense and Eli's experience masked a lot of potential sacks. However when the defense knows you only have 3 seconds to trow, and have to do 3 step drops, it eliminates the mid range to deeper passing game. Combine this with zero running game and it makes the defenses job very easy. This is a case where stats reviewed after the fact are clouding the picture. What people saw during the games is the reality. We need to move the ball against everyone, not just the defenses ranked 22-32. Otherwise we will stay 8-8. or 7-9. With no offense, our defense is on the field all the time. I actually think we had a number of games where the D played well, but wore down because they were out there the whole time.

That's B.S. everyone on this board thought Eli would be carried out on a stretcher against the Rams ..the sacked him once and he ate them alive. In the first half against Seatlle Eli ate them alive as well they only sacked Eli twice.

but can you break them down versus good teams and bad?
If you're getting fat on the easy to mediocre defenses, wrgaf? You need the running game for balance and nearly every time we ran the ball against good to decent defenses we failed.

worthy of being the 9th overall pick. Now if Cooper or White are there at 9 then I believe they have to be the pick. The Giants can get a solid LG in round 2 or even 3.

In comment 12194380 Jay on the Island said:

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worthy of being the 9th overall pick. Now if Cooper or White are there at 9 then I believe they have to be the pick. The Giants can get a solid LG in round 2 or even 3.

Bingo

Eli was under fire constantly. Sacks don't mean anything. Thank goodness he was able to get rid of the ball quickly or the sacks would've been much higher.

This offensive line is mediocre and there is no depth at all.

In comment 12194377 Sec 103 said:

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but can you break them down versus good teams and bad? If you're getting fat on the easy to mediocre defenses, wrgaf? You need the running game for balance and nearly every time we ran the ball against good to decent defenses we failed.

Who were the good defenses that they faced?

Seattle ...2 sacks allowed
Rams ....1 sack allowed
Dallas....2 sacks total in 2 games
Jags ...4 sacks
Eagles ..8 sacks in 2 games

Yes, I meant Hickey who I see as good value in the 4th. But imagine another OT in the 4th if you prefer.

First of all, while this is only tangentially related to the thread, the OL can't run block for shit. Let's all at least admit that and get that out of the way. They open up absolutely no holes for our RBs and cannot get an initial push at all.

Secondly, while the OL did get better as the season went on, I think the numbers are skewed by Eli's ability to get rid of the ball before taking a sack. I wonder what the QB hurries and hits numbers look like.

On top of that, I mean just using the eyeball test shows that Eli is always under duress, and more importantly, doesn't have a clean pocket to step up into. Eli can deal with average of slightly sub par tackles, but he needs to have a good interior OL so he can step up into the pocket and avoid the rush.

Our OL in 2011 sucked, and it was visually apparent that the OL in 14 was worse than in 11. And we all know '13 was an absolute disaster.

Finally, you can't rely on all 4 of our OL to stay healthy. Someone is going to get hurt. Schwartz was so injured last year he was a nonfactor, and now he's going to magically stay healthy? Pugh was either hurt or regressed last year, and Richburg played okay, but not great. On top of that, we all know what we have in Beatty - a slightly above average at best LT.

A lot of people in this thread are basically resigning to saying "well if the OL stays healthy, it could be average".

1) Everyone won't stay healthy
2) This line's ceiling is a C+ at best for this season.

If Richburg and Pugh develop, and we can sign an OG in FA, and draft another OT/OG to be the first off the bench or starter (depending on the round), THEN we'll be in good shape. We're two moves away, but not there yet.

I don't know why they didn't look into the Ben Grubbs trade, or at least bring in Bulaga or Iupati for a look. I believe there is still one or two decent OL on the market, though I may be mistaken.

IF we fix this line and draft a WR, this offense has the potential to be the best Giants O we've seen under Eli - even better than '11.

Cooper/white/Parker-Cruz-Randle-Beckham Vereen-Jennings-WIlliams Donnell

That's a lot of guys with skill. But it's only all gonna tick if we can fix the OL (and if we can nab Cooper, White, or Parker).

Newhouse fit in? Is he a guard or RT?

In comment 12194270 CT Charlie said:

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but without decent run blocking we're a 1-dimensional offense. We won only 6 games.

The Defensive woes had a lot to do with that record, perhaps more so than Offensive failings. Also, factor in the league-leading injuries.

In comment 12194367 HomerJones45 said:

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is that the qb is under siege. Even under KG's offense. Eli was never among the top 40% of qb's hit or sacked. Some of you need to pay attention when other teams play-their qb's get hit too. Not that any of that will get noticed by the three yard pass and a cloud of dust contingent here. And thanks to the OP for exploding the myth of the dominant Dallas o-line. Romo got the snot beat out of him last season even with Murray and ended up with broken ribs.

In 2011, Eli was hurried more than any other QB in football.

In comment 12194426 NYBEN1963 said:

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Newhouse fit in? Is he a guard or RT?

Newhouse was signed to be the backup swing tackle.

rid of the ball quickly is part of it, Eli has NEVER been a QB that gets sacked a lot because he gets rid of the ball quickly the same with Peyton. Aaron Rodger up until this season was always among the MOST sacked QB's because he'd rather take the sack than throw the INT.

Watch the last 2 drives of the cowboys giants game

Cowboys go down field and score while we rush four and have no impact on romo

Cowboys rush 3&4 when we get ball and Eli can't get a clean pocket for more then 3 seconds

I simply can't understand those who say you draft for need at #9. That's how you miss out on Pro Bowlers and maybe future Hall of Famers. Those are the guys who win Super Bowls.

If the best guy at #9 is an OL, you take him. But if you have a much higher grade on someone else, you take that guy.

Beatty played much better in 2014, but he's not a top tier left tackle and he certainly isn't an asset as a run blocker. That's OK, but let's not pretend left tackle is a truly "settled" position - especially given Beatty's contract and inconsistent performance. A year from now, they may cut him. It depends on how he plays.

Teams the offense did ok/well against:
Falcons - #32 in total yds given up (last in other words)
Texans - #16
Skins - #20
Jags - #26
Titans - #27
Rams - #17
Eagles - #28 (game 2)
Cowboys - #21 (game 2)

Teams we couldn't move against:
Seahawks - #1
Lions - #2
San Fran - #4
Cardinals - #24
Eagles - #28 (game 1)
Cowboys - #21 (game 1)
Colts - #11

I think this pretty much shows we could move against the bottom 1/2 of the defenses, but did squat against the top half. The definition of a 500 team. Even some of the weaker defenses we "split on (Cowboys and Eagles). If we are a playoff team, we need to be able to move the ball against playoff teams.

In comment 12194445 Eric from BBI said:

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I simply can't understand those who say you draft for need at #9. That's how you miss out on Pro Bowlers and maybe future Hall of Famers. Those are the guys who win Super Bowls. If the best guy at #9 is an OL, you take him. But if you have a much higher grade on someone else, you take that guy.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In comment 12194445 Eric from BBI said:

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I simply can't understand those who say you draft for need at #9. That's how you miss out on Pro Bowlers and maybe future Hall of Famers. Those are the guys who win Super Bowls. If the best guy at #9 is an OL, you take him. But if you have a much higher grade on someone else, you take that guy.

This to me is a great year to trade down and acquire more picks possibly an additional 2nd round pick

and I don't view cooper or any WR as a much higher grade then the top OL- so with that I feel on this team and at this time the best area to make the largest impact would be that OL.

if you don't view these OL as studs... that is fine. But I don't see a Sammy Watkins... I don't see a OBJ... on the OL side I also don't see a ogden, but I see players that will significantly upgrade our team for a while.

WRs exist in the 2nd and 3rd round as well... the USC kid is not much different then the top guys from my view-

you could probably say similar on OL guys as well... but its not crazy to think their is no stud WR this year that would warrant having one of our top 4 paid players plus 2 1st round picks back to back years.... at WR.

I would rather trade down at that stage.

at a certain draft position (at least not usually). Usually there are a few guys who fall in the same range. My opinion is you look at the guys who are in the that range, and then pick the guy who plays in the position of the most need (since you have them graded roughly the same). I don't want to stretch, but I think what I wrote above is the realistic view of what happens, and I believe I have read interviews with Reese that says the same.

the lack of running game was discussed. what about QB hits?

Giants were 15th in the league in QB hits. Cowboys were 30th in QB hits. So there is another stat that paints a different picture.

Go look at football outsiders who has unique cut on stats. Not as rosy a picture. 22nd OL in football

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

who knows how to get rid of the ball will really aid in the sack/hurry category. The issue is when you can't protect the 5 and 7 step drops, or run, the job gets very easy for the defense. The Cowboys had more confidence in their OL, and could run really well obviously, so they were trying to go down the field more (plus add in Romo's mobility). This leads to more hurries by the defenses.

In comment 12194472 nyynyg said:

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Go look at football outsiders who has unique cut on stats. Not as rosy a picture. 22nd OL in football http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

I'm not sure if I'm reading that chart right but that shows the Giants as the 10th best pass protecting offensive line and by comparison the Cowboys are 17th.If I'm looking at it wrong please help me out

In comment 12194488 NYBEN1963 said:

Quote:

In comment 12194472 nyynyg said: Quote: Go look at football outsiders who has unique cut on stats. Not as rosy a picture. 22nd OL in football http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol I'm not sure if I'm reading that chart right but that shows the Giants as the 10th best pass protecting offensive line and by comparison the Cowboys are 17th.If I'm looking at it wrong please help me out

yeah, i was just posting more info regarding overall, that was for running.

About the run game was TC's stubborn ass insistence on trying it when it was obviously not working instead of throwing on 1st or 2nd down to loosen up the box.

where you can see how Eli performs results wise with pressure, etc. Goes directly to how he is better if you give him time. Check out the last section in particular.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2014/06/05/qbs-in-focus-pressure-and-the-blitz/

particularly those on contact and lack of practice time have resulted in stat inflation across the league.

It's also made the need for premier talent at positions like WR, irrelevant as Seattle and NE have demonstrated in back to back years.

In comment 12194295 Eric from BBI said:

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Beatty, Pugh, Richburg didn't play all that well last year, and Schwartz only played two games, how can you say they are only one player away from being among the best? Also, would it be better to draft a solid but nothing special offensive lineman at #9 or an All-Pro defensive end or wide receiver?

Because fans overrate talent badly

because if we cant run the ball, they will just do their best to cover our wideouts..

just wondering

I'm not conceding the Giants are one dimensional, just short yardage challenged. The Patriots were pretty 1 dimensional, Vereen led all rushers with 391 whopping yds from scrimmage and the team total was under 1,800. Their defense was very good, not great.

what Beatty can give us; we need Pugh, Richburg and Schwartz to step up their play this season and in the latter case, stay healthy. jerry should only be deployed as a backup.

as stated above the Giants were even MORE 1 dimensional 32 in rushing and 32 in yards per carry. Not saying it's a good thing and it shouldn't be fixed but they made it work.

The number of sacks is meaningless. It's the number of "Hits" the QB takes. Eli has been battered the last few years. Of course, with the new offense it wasn't as bad last year.

Coughlin loves to run the ball. He wants to control the line of scrimmage. He's not the "ran and shoot" coach that you all may want. I'm sure Coughlin isn't happy with the run blocking of the OL.

to think this O-line is 1 dominant guard away from being best in class. To me it's more like, 1 more dominant guard is needed to make this team competitive.

To Eric's point about pick 9. I would agree, if there is a much higher graded wide receiver than guard available, you go BPA and take the WR. Then look for a high rated guard in rounds 2 or 3.

Jennings' injury and Andre Williams as a rookie RB that isn't a finesse back?

Not saying our rushing OL stats aren't accurate, but i'm skeptical on what they would have been had Jennings played all 16 games.

I don't remember 1 comment this year with " I like the run blocking"I think it needs to be upgraded as much as most, but I don't see it as broken

If the grades aren't close. If I have Cooper rated at say 82.5 and I have La'el Collins rated at 82.3 I am taking Collins. The grades are close enough, OL is much more of a need than WR. There are more WRs later in the draft compared to OL. Unless I have Cooper rated as much better instead of just close then I am going with the need at that point. If I think Cooper is an All-Pro and Scherff is just a solid OL then you take Cooper no question. But if I think Cooper is a pro bowler and La'el is a pro bowler then I will go Collins.

One thing in my opinion with Eli... If you give him time he is deadly. If you pressure him he will rush and force balls. He won't take a lot of sacks because he will get the ball out whether in a good decision or not, but if you give him time he will make plays for you.

I dont agree there are more WR's than OL in the draft

He doesn't take a lot of sacks and McAdoo's scheme gets the ball out which keeps the stats down. Time in the pocket was scarce and the interior was consistently caved in. He took a lot of hits and hurries. If Richburg continues his progress from last year moving back to C and Schwartz(who should be moved back to his favored RG spot) is healthy that will help.

LG is still a major concern. I don't want to see that spot handed to Jones or Jerry. Drfat a young talent to compete there or draft a RT and slide Pugh there. One more piece of the puzzle will go a long way to providing Giants fans some confidence and peace of mind that our O-Line will be much improved imo.

In comment 12194597 Headhunter said:

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I dont agree there are more WR's than OL in the draft

Who are the OL that will be available after starting in the 3rd round? I can only think of maybe DJ Humphries, Donovan Smith, maybe Jake Fisher, Slim chance that a Tre Jackson/Tomlinson fall, John Miller I guess, etc The list dwindles pretty bad. At WR there is Rashaad Greene, Devin Smith, Phillip Dorsett, Tyler Lockett, Justin Hardy, maybe a Aghalor, Coates, Perriman, 5th-7th round WRs Antwan Goodley, Tony Lippett, Josh Harper, Stefon Diggs, Deontay Greenberry, Ty Montgomery, etc...

OL falls off after the 3rd round... WR goes strong through the draft.

Beatty is average and overpaid but he is a starting LT in this league. He will have an offseason with no rehab this year. Let's see how he does now that he has this normal offseason. This should be an upgrade from last year.

Jerry is the starter at LG for now. His main issue is run blocking, not pass blocking. I'm not a big fan or Jerry but pass blocking is not really his issue. Also, you can find a G in the draft in 1 of the first 2 rounds if necessary. Let's call this a neutral move for now from last year with the potential for an upgrade based on the draft.

Richburg is someone we all loved last year going into the draft. He now has an offseason of weight training and NFL nutrition and is back to his natural position. This is an upgrade.

Schwartz never really played last year especially at G, but he was our prize signing last offseason. He should be a massive upgrade at the G spot.

Pugh had a down year last year after a good first year. I honestly don't know what to expect but I hope playing next to Schwartz helps. At a minimum I think this spot is neutral compared to last year with the potential for significantly better play if Pugh can improve.

This line is not going to be a disaster this year no matter what happens in the draft. People need to calm down about this.

RB is second. Good group at DT. S stinks. TE stinks. CB is top light but has some depth. OL thins out after Round 3.

In comment 12194606 Torrag said:

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He doesn't take a lot of sacks and McAdoo's scheme gets the ball out which keeps the stats down. Time in the pocket was scarce and the interior was consistently caved in. He took a lot of hits and hurries. If Richburg continues his progress from last year moving back to C and Schwartz(who should be moved back to his favored RG spot) is healthy that will help. LG is still a major concern. I don't want to see that spot handed to Jones or Jerry. Drfat a young talent to compete there or draft a RT and slide Pugh there. One more piece of the puzzle will go a long way to providing Giants fans some confidence and peace of mind that our O-Line will be much improved imo.

Completely agree... If we don't go La'el Collins or Scherff then I think we need to go OL in the second. The problem with that is what if a stud falls to the 2nd... Now we pass on an OL there and have to look in the 3rd. Don't get me wrong. My ideal draft would be WR Cooper, OG Tre Jackson, FS Kurtis Drummond, OT Cedric Ogbuehi, SS Jordan Richards, TE Mycole Pruitt, RB Karlos Williams, DB Jermaine Whiteside

In comment 12194628 Torrag said:

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RB is second. Good group at DT. S stinks. TE stinks. CB is top light but has some depth. OL thins out after Round 3.

That is exactly how I see the draft.

in rounds 1-3, then I would be stunned

unless they either signed two all-pros or cluster drafted 3 offensive linemen with their first 3 picks.

who do you play at LG and who do you play at RG?

Until 2014, Schwartz played almost exclusively on the right side. Jerry had bounced around at both guard and tackle positions.

In this offense, who is best suited for each guard position?

In comment 12194653 Ivan15 said:

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who do you play at LG and who do you play at RG? Until 2014, Schwartz played almost exclusively on the right side. Jerry had bounced around at both guard and tackle positions. In this offense, who is best suited for each guard position?

Schwartz in 2013 started most of his games at LG... That is why when we signed him we were going to play him there until he got hurt.

did you see Beckham in Beckham last year? I can't recall anyone saying we should draft him.

had mentioned Beckham, no one had him in their mocks, he was still under the radar to everyone

In comment 12194686 Headhunter said:

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had mentioned Beckham, no one had him in their mocks, he was still under the radar to everyone

agreed.. I think the earliest I saw Beckham being picked was the Jets or Steelers..

Now if one of Collins/Scherff/Peat carry close to the highest grade in other words in the highest tier when we select then you consider it.

However, Edge-Rusher/WR really look like strong bets for BPA at 9.

Further if you have a bunch of very high borderline 1st round grades on the OL that will be there at 40 (very likely in this draft) even more reason not to 'force' the pick at OL at 9.

in his mock the Sunday before the draft. My informed reaction was WTF?

than it was in 2013 means nothing.

In 2013, the offensive line was absolute dog shit. I felt so sorry for Eli out there trying to survive with the likes of James Brewer, Will Beatty, Jim Cordle, Dave Dihel's very last thread, and a mediocre Pugh.

The offensive line still sucked in 2014. No running game until very late in the season until the Giants played bad teams. Do I really have to relive in my head the trash that was the Eagles game that was in Philadelphia where our offensive line looked like a bunch of little girls out there? The offensive line looked great vs the Jaguars right? When the Jaguars rallied from 21-0 deficit, beat Giants 25-24. Oh my God that game pissed me the fuck off and I'd love to scold Larry Donnell some more but I like my wall the way it is.

Lol, can't wait to see Suh again this coming year...yeah...

WR in one, OG/OT in two.

OBj, single handedly turned this offense around......

The line didn't give up a lot of sacks....it gave up a lot of pressures/hurried throws.....as mentioned previously, Eli getting rid of the ball quicker, helped reduce the sack numbers....

23rd in yardage, 28th in ypa in rushing......Did you ever have confidence in this line on 3rd and short, a Giant drive buster?

Beatty played better than the year before, but it was average at best.....can Schwartz stay on the field, and can he play a better RG, than the dreadful LG he played last year? Can Walton be a force at center? Was it injuries, the guy playing next to him, sophomore jinx, or is Pugh not the player we thought he was? His rookie year, we looked away from the mistakes, and the fact that the rest of the line, just flat out sucked....Last year we counted on him,, and he came up short....

So where is the consistency in the line? Only two guys(maybe only one if Pugh moves to LG), will be playing the same position this year.....a good LG/RT is needed to complete the line.....

If the line can stay healthy, and can consistently make third and short conversions, McAdoo can be creative on 3rd down, and make Eli's life a lot better.....

In comment 12194681 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

did you see Beckham in Beckham last year? I can't recall anyone saying we should draft him.

Beckham was being talked about quite a bit. Phil in LA specifically wanted him bad if I remember right. There were people that thought the Jets might move ahead of the Giants to get Beckham. I said that I thought Beckham may go number 7 to Tampa Bay because he was a better fit at WR next to Vincent Jackson than Mike Evans. Beckham wasn't so 20th+ pick selection guy that no saw coming.

No way was Phil in LA talking about Beckham more than a month out from the draft, no way. If you can achieve a post before April 15th 2014 mentioning Beckham going to the Giants, I will apologize

kudos to the guys who posted that, but I barely saw him mentioned on BBI as a Giants option. He was barely mentioned by "experts" too on shows like Big Blue Kickoff Live.

I can see them going OL or WR...but I have a growing feeling in my gut that it will be DE pass rusher.

In comment 12194756 Headhunter said:

Quote:

No way was Phil in LA talking about Beckham more than a month out from the draft, no way. If you can achieve a post before April 15th 2014 mentioning Beckham going to the Giants, I will apologize

Didn't know we were talking a month out. I can't recall when the talks of Beckham started, but they were there plenty of time before the draft. Whether that was a week, weeks, a month not sure I see a difference? Before the draft OBJ was hot and people were definitely talking about him being picked in the top 15

In comment 12194780 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

kudos to the guys who posted that, but I barely saw him mentioned on BBI as a Giants option. He was barely mentioned by "experts" too on shows like Big Blue Kickoff Live.

That is because BBI couldn't get their eyes off of Martin or Donald. They wanted Martin or they wanted Donald and no one else! In my opinion that is. Like if you ask me who I want I would say Cooper or La'el Collins so I will project them to the Giants. Doesn't mean I don't think that Scherff will be the pick or even Landon Collins. He could easily be the pick and BBI will complain, but he isn't nearly as bad as BBI makes him out to be.

Lewan, the TE that went to Detroit, Martin, Donald were all going to us and out of nowhere right before the draft we are taking Beckham

Latest ESPN Mocks McShay: Beckham, Jr. Kiper: Donald
sjnyfan : 4/29/2014 1:28 pm
Both have the same for the first 5 picks:

Hou: Clowney
StL: Robinson
Jax: Watkins
Cle: Manziel
Oak: Mack
Atl: (McShay) Matthews, (Kiper) Lewan
TB: (Both) Evans
Min: (Both) Bortles
Buf: (McShay) Lewan, (Kiper) Matthews
Det: (McShay) Ebron, (Kiper) Beckham, Jr.
Ten: (Both) Dennard
NYG (McShay) Odell Beckham, Jr., (Kiper) Aaron Donald

On the 29th McShay had the Giants taking OBJ and Kiper had OBJ going 10th to DET.

I will see if I can find further back.

I would look at the first three rounds and come up with aggregate grades...if the round WR and OL and a simiar grade, but the round 2 (3) OL's had markedly better grades than the WR's, I pick WR in Round 1. In this draft, I've seen several people make an argument that the best overall value is WR and then OG, but I haven't seen anyone make a good case for the converse.

with OBJ going to us was a 11th hour surprise?

I really want Cooper/White to drop and I really want us to take them. However, it seems weird to me that the reason we take them is because we draft BPA as opposed for need but the only way they get to us is if the teams above us draft for need and not BPA.

In comment 12194787 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

I can see them going OL or WR...but I have a growing feeling in my gut that it will be DE pass rusher.

I think Dupree is climbing up boards.. He could be in consideration when the Giants draft..

In comment 12194828 Headhunter said:

Quote:

with OBJ going to us was a 11th hour surprise?

My recollection is that OBJ was a fast riser and the later mock drafts had him going near our pick or as our pick.

In comment 12194828 Headhunter said:

Quote:

with OBJ going to us was a 11th hour surprise?

11th hour? No not at all... He was hot leading up to the draft. About 2 weeks before both Kiper and McShay had him going 10th to Detroit and 12th to us. 11th hour to us is like when Mayock called Pugh to us. OBJ at least 2 weeks out was being talked about in the top 15 and to us. That isn't 11th hour to me.

...was that it was within a week or two of the draft that OBJ was first talked about in terms of the Giants. And it was within days of the draft that we started reading reports that teams were interested in trading up for him.

several weeks in advance.

If you just watched the games last year,you do not have to look at any stats to tell you that we need major upgrades on the OL. It would be nice if Schwartz could be counted on for next year ,but I would like to see him make it through a season before relying on him.
Why not add a stud to the line and then add that guard in the second and be confident that the line will be good going forward.
As far as WR goes, when you have a guy like Beckham,everyone else looks much better.especially when you can run the ball.

NYG was nervous another team would trade up in front of them to pick OB.

In comment 12194450 PatersonPlank said:

Quote:

Teams the offense did ok/well against: Falcons - #32 in total yds given up (last in other words) Texans - #16 Skins - #20 Jags - #26 Titans - #27 Rams - #17 Eagles - #28 (game 2) Cowboys - #21 (game 2) Teams we couldn't move against: Seahawks - #1 Lions - #2 San Fran - #4 Cardinals - #24 Eagles - #28 (game 1) Cowboys - #21 (game 1) Colts - #11 I think this pretty much shows we could move against the bottom 1/2 of the defenses, but did squat against the top half. The definition of a 500 team. Even some of the weaker defenses we "split on (Cowboys and Eagles). If we are a playoff team, we need to be able to move the ball against playoff teams.

What's your point? Those teams were top defenses because a lot of teams had trouble moving the ball on them.

And that assumes that you are correct. We threw for 280 yards passing against the Niners, a top defense- and threw 5 picks. 2 sacks in 45 passing attempts. We threw for 277 against the Cards- and had 4 TO. In Cowboys 1, we threw for 250, had over 100 yards rushing and 0 sacks. Eagles 1 was a disaster all the way around with the defense putting the team in 20-0 hole at the half. By Eagles 2, 429 passing and 0 sacks.

So, we had trouble moving the ball on the two top defenses, just like a lot of other teams, struggled early in the year against the Eagles, what else is new, and otherwise were able to move the ball unless we were turning it over.

move the ball against Seattle. That gave us a lead, and then second half the wheels came off. That int was a turning point in the game in terms of momentum. After that point the wheels, doors, and engine all fell apart.

I'd agree the OL absolutely needs more talent, but it makes no sense to force a pick at #9, especially. Draft into the inherent strengths of the draft, no reaching at #9.

put can you achieve and actually prove it?

.

not everything gets posted on BBI for a number of reasons. You may believe what you will.

In comment 12194861 JonC said:

Quote:

NYG was nervous another team would trade up in front of them to pick OB.

Yes that is very true also.

I remember reading about Beckham going to the Jets or later. I remember Phil mentioning him. I don't remember anyone suggesting Beckham to the Giants here or anywhere else till a week before the draft

Quote:

I really like Devon Kennard... Amtoft : 4/30/2014 12:37 pm : link total team player. They needed him at DE he played DE... They needed him at OLB he played OLB... They needed him at ILB he played the Mike. I actually think his best position is at ILB. He is under developed due to moving so many times, but he was solid where ever he went. Put him at ILB or OLB or DE and let him develop into a very good player.

It is hard to archive back because it only goes so far.

.

In comment 12194877 Headhunter said:

Quote:

put can you achieve and actually prove it?

Headhunter how many posts do you want? Micky showed one from 4/1/2014 over a month before the draft!

Quote:

Here's one micky : 2:08 pm : link : reply Quote: It sounds like, if he's still on the board 4/01/14 Micky:12:42 pm. That Giants will take LSU's wr. Odell Beckham Jr.

You guys win. We were discussing Beckham to the Giants well before the draft

In comment 12194874 JonC said:

Quote:

I'd agree the OL absolutely needs more talent, but it makes no sense to force a pick at #9, especially. Draft into the inherent strengths of the draft, no reaching at #9.

Agreed. But what would your reaction be if they waited to the 4th round or later to address the OL?

In comment 12194882 Headhunter said:

Quote:

I remember reading about Beckham going to the Jets or later. I remember Phil mentioning him. I don't remember anyone suggesting Beckham to the Giants here or anywhere else till a week before the draft

I already showed you over two weeks that McShay had him going to the Giants and Kiper had him going 10th. Micky showed that there was talk of OBJ to the Giants over a month in advance. You are wrong so just stop it.

are you a moron?

In comment 12194889 Headhunter said:

Quote:

You guys win. We were discussing Beckham to the Giants well before the draft

Sorry made my last post before you posted this and posted it wrong. It was just under 2 weeks before the draft.

for snapping

So be it, I want the best players. This roster as is will not contend for a SB this season, and that's the point no fan wants to concede before a season even begins. grin. But, it's the most likely reality, imv. Bill2 has been all over the dynamics in other threads, I think he's got the pulse. Draft the best players and put them in the pipeline, keep building.

In comment 12194899 Headhunter said:

Quote:

for snapping

No worries... Our replies were happening while posts were happening. It is all good.

Let's just draft a couple of studs and we will do less bickering and more smiling

is that some view a stud OL and more worth putting in the pipeline then a stud WR.
position value is not an exact science after QB.
one can argue DB is most relevant... another DE... ask the pats and seahawks about WR... there is no exact answer.
just because its a passing NFL... doesn't mean WR is more valuable ---- separately just because our OL sux... does mean OL is the more valuable.
I whole heartedly believe that a pro bowl potential OL is a game changer for the NYG for the next 10 years. we miss Kmac, we miss Snee. seeing what power in those spots offers... to me is more value then a WR.
is that accurate? maybe not... but I believe the NYG if Scherff is on the board will go with that view. and anyone saying its need based... I would disagree- I think its value.

In comment 12194912 Headhunter said:

Quote:

Let's just draft a couple of studs and we will do less bickering and more smiling

I am down with that!

There's no blue chip stud OL in this crop, and it's likely at least two WRs will carry higher grades than the OL.

those two WRs will probably be gone before #9. Then, you have to root against potentially drafting a DE, which doesn't pass the sniff test either unless the OL grade is superior.

is he is the best OL out there but not at number 9. No OL is top 10 worthy. Now if they slightly reach to grab him or another Olineman, I think that hurts the team down the road. Outside of a QB, you have to take the highest rated player in your row if he is clearly higher rated than Schreff or any other Olineman. You don't get to pick number 9 often based on the Giants history. They have to maximize the opportunity

In comment 12194919 hitdog42 said:

Quote:

is that some view a stud OL and more worth putting in the pipeline then a stud WR. position value is not an exact science after QB. one can argue DB is most relevant... another DE... ask the pats and seahawks about WR... there is no exact answer. just because its a passing NFL... doesn't mean WR is more valuable ---- separately just because our OL sux... does mean OL is the more valuable. I whole heartedly believe that a pro bowl potential OL is a game changer for the NYG for the next 10 years. we miss Kmac, we miss Snee. seeing what power in those spots offers... to me is more value then a WR. is that accurate? maybe not... but I believe the NYG if Scherff is on the board will go with that view. and anyone saying its need based... I would disagree- I think its value.

It sounds likes you believe that this is a one round draft?

and direct heat through the middle of the line with an inside rush. Walton is gone. Problem solved?

Sack/Hit numbers don't take into account the number of times Eli was rushed to get rid of the ball without his feet set.

Agholor from USC in the 2nd so I am hoping that they take a DE or OL in round 1.

In comment 12194966 SHO'NUFF said:

Quote:

and direct heat through the middle of the line with an inside rush. Walton is gone. Problem solved? Sack/Hit numbers don't take into account the number of times Eli was rushed to get rid of the ball without his feet set.

I think Walton was a major part of the problem.

They don't tally that for any qb. Other qb's have to throw the ball away to avoid the rush too. Some qb's such as Wilson and Romo get hit and sacked more than Eli despite being more mobile and throwing fewer passes. You don't think they have to rush to get the ball away?

Eli doesn't get enough credit for throwing the ball away and taking a hit on his completion percentage stats. The stats for sacks and QB hits remain respectable, as well, because of Eli.

take a sack, throw it away, or force a throw. If you force a throw you end up with two results: 1. great pass 2. bad pass-results in INT.

For Eli you tend to get more of the throw the ball away OR force a pass which results in the 2 outcomes.

In my opinion Eli doesn't get credit for it because you tend to get forced pass resulting in INT which then they want to credit his decision making. It's ironic because when he does make plays, it was the same decision making that resulted in a good play. Take the Tyree play. Forced pass category I call it. It resulted in a good play. It could have been an INT, but in my opinion the decision making was the same an effort to make a play rather than take a sack.

It's the same bullshit when Eli tried to throw left handed against the Panthers to Boss in the end zone and it resulted in an int. Eli won't get credit for anything like throwing the ball away or anything like that. People will focus on the forced passes which turn into INTs and then rip on his decision making.

as you should most subjective stats but as of week 14 last season, the ProFootball Focus crew rated the Giants' line as the 14th best pass blockers unit in the league. And this was before they played the Redskins (1 sack), Rams (1 sack), and Eagles (ZERO sacks) in the following weeks.

So perhaps how badly the line started last year is influencing our memories about how badly they finished. I feel that by the end of the season, the Giants were closer to an average line then most here feel.
Link - ( New Window )

on 3rd&1 and 4th & inches

In comment 12195085 Semipro Lineman said:

Quote:

as you should most subjective stats but as of week 14 last season, the ProFootball Focus crew rated the Giants' line as the 14th best pass blockers unit in the league. And this was before they played the Redskins (1 sack), Rams (1 sack), and Eagles (ZERO sacks) in the following weeks. So perhaps how badly the line started last year is influencing our memories about how badly they finished. I feel that by the end of the season, the Giants were closer to an average line then most here feel. Link - ( New Window )

Well two things. Once is that as the season goes you get comfortable in the new system so you expect the offense as a whole to get better. The other is that towards the end of the season we are playing weaker teams.

I think year 2 will show everyone how good this OL actually is in terms of pass blocking. Run blocking they certainly need to get better. Tired of losing yards running the ball.

were only about needing a real good nasty run blocking guard. If we get one, just one, then with these starters we have an average NFL Oline.

than the OL truly hitting their stride at the end of last season and coming into form straight away this season. We need the offense firing on all cylinders especially if the defense is getting acquainted with a new system.

In comment 12195098 Headhunter said:

Quote:

on 3rd&1 and 4th & inches

Or maybe..just maybe.. throw the ball instead of trying to run every single time.

did better against bad teams narrative doesn't explain how they managed to give up only two sacks each against the great defenses of Seattle and 49er's in consecutive weeks. Eli also threw for 280 yards those games despite have a limited running attack. The line (which badly needs an upgrade) wasn't the train wreck some are making it out to be.

P.S. I know we can all find stats that support our side of the argument but I think some of the answers to the usefulness of stats we disagree with are too dismissive and don't give enough credit where it is due. The good play against bad teams line isn't used to dismissed the Eagles success but it is used to downplay positive elements (besides Beckham Jr.) about the Giants last year.

They couldn't run the ball and despite low sack numbers Eli was hit, harassed and hurried regularly. They were noticeably suspect on the interior. The pocked was caved in regularly not allowing Eli any kind of a comfort zone. They failed to open up running lanes and were terrible in short yardage situations. It baffles me that people think they can spin this as a group on the cusp of respectability. They were flat out bad.

To date the only personnel change in the group is a CFL standout that is probably going to switch positions to OG. That isn't enough to get this group where it needs to be imo. There is still time in free agency and the draft to do more. I'd be stunned if we don't do more to improve our O-Line.

In comment 12195171 Semipro Lineman said:

Quote:

did better against bad teams narrative doesn't explain how they managed to give up only two sacks each against the great defenses of Seattle and 49er's in consecutive weeks. Eli also threw for 280 yards those games despite have a limited running attack. The line (which badly needs an upgrade) wasn't the train wreck some are making it out to be. P.S. I know we can all find stats that support our side of the argument but I think some of the answers to the usefulness of stats we disagree with are too dismissive and don't give enough credit where it is due. The good play against bad teams line isn't used to dismissed the Eagles success but it is used to downplay positive elements (besides Beckham Jr.) about the Giants last year.

Well that's the thing. People want to use stats, but the way I go about is try to think of the various passing concepts used for each game. I did this after the game so by now I forgot the exact details. I know the 1st Eagles game shit show stood out due to the 5 and 7 step drop backs used. The playacting looked different than the previous games.

In general, we ran:
X and Z hot
checked down to the RB.
curls,
comebacks
hitches.

3 step drops: hitches, curls, slants and different "crossing patterns" specifically levels and Mesh.

So you think of that and then use the stats to see what the numbers were. So you see 2 sacks or zero and someone may say, damn our OL is pretty good in pass protection.

However, if I am running those concepts I listed. Hits and pressures should be the only issue I face, unless teams are getting to me in situations like 3rd and long when I have to run 5 or 7 step passes or a player gets beat badly OR an RB doesn't execute his assignment in pass pro.

Then you gotta figure Eli would rather throw it away or force a throw rather than take a sack. So that sack number could be low, but what else is going on? Was Eli pressured? If so, rather than take a sack he could have forced a throw which: ended up as a great pass OR INT, in which people will say, "Fuck Eli, why did you force it?!"

So he is not getting sacked, but perhaps there was continuous pressure on him for that game.

It all depends. You got to re-watch the game and see what we were trying to do.

The basic stuff like the offense would get better as the season goes on. And towards the end of the season we played weaker teams so that can make the offense AND defense look good.

In comment 12195171 Semipro Lineman said:
[quote] did better against bad teams narrative doesn't explain how they managed to give up only two sacks each against the great defenses of Seattle and 49er's in consecutive weeks. Eli also threw for 280 yards those games despite have a limited running attack. The line (which badly needs an upgrade) wasn't the train wreck some are making it out to be.

P.S. I know we can all find stats that support our side of the argument but I think some of the answers to the usefulness of stats we disagree with are too dismissive and don't give enough credit where it is due. The good play against bad teams line isn't used to dismissed the Eagles success but it is used to downplay positive elements (besides Beckham Jr.) about the Giants last year. [/quote

Truthfully Jacksonville actually dominated our O-line pretty good both against the run and with their pass rush. I think they got after us more than Seattle or San fran. Also you can't discount the fact that Eli had one of his BEST statistical seasons ...facts are facts.

of Eli's first year in the new offense vs the old offense. His numbers are amongst the top of his career (2nd in yards passing, TDs and (I think) TD%, YPA, YPG).

I'd also like to see a thread about Coughlin's clusterfucks this year regarding his stubbornness to keep sticking with the run and the perplexing passing gameplan vs. Philadelphia (first game).

The Giants knew they couldn't pass protect, especially against the good teams. So the offense became short routes and three step drops. Sacks don't happen. The problem is we couldn't run either, so all the D did was sit on short routes. If we are going to get back to being a contender, we need our OL to be able to do something well against the good defenses. I'm not looking for miracles and being able to run and control the LOS, but one would be nice. In 2011 our OL could give Eli time against anyone. Eli could hit receivers, which would in turn opened a little running game because the D sent more people trying to get to Eli.

the reason they went to short drops because they knew they couldn't pass protect? Yeah right, the 3 step drops had nothing to do with McAdoo's designed system. Originally it was designed for a 7 step drop but he abandoned it for a 3 step when he realized they couldn't pass block. Is that what went down?

Have thrown in deeper drops. The Packers use all kinds of drops and patterns, not just 3 step slants (for example). They we are doing the best they could with what they thought they had.

for 1 second.

Acts like Eli is getting wrecked out there, we have an average offensive line unit.

Eli put up decent numbers and we had a crazy amount of injuries. Offensive lines get better the longer they play together so they should be an improved unit.

How is having the third worst yards per carry comparable to an average offensive line? We ran for 3.6 yards a pop. That's just awful.

I watched every offensive snap of every game and I didn't see a comfortable Eli Manning back there. The new system helped by getting the ball out faster than at any time in his career. He was still getting banged around and pushed off his spot regularly.

The pass blocking was better than the run blocking but how could it have been any worse?

as it is on passing plays.

Odell was a great pick, but we need another Guard and Tackle that can create some leverage and space for the RBs...

With the talent on the roster now, we need to establish the pass in order to run effectively. Spreading the defense and playing with only 6 or 7 in the box makes life a lot easier. We have to find out if the RB`s we have are elusive enough to thrive in this environment. They must be able to make 1 or 2 people miss and they should be ok. A good coordinator calls plays to the strength of the team. Prior to last season, I feel that our OC was trying to fit the players into his scheme not the scheme to his players ability. Just saying.

In comment 12195582 Bob Snow said:

Quote:

Acts like Eli is getting wrecked out there, we have an average offensive line unit. Eli put up decent numbers and we had a crazy amount of injuries. Offensive lines get better the longer they play together so they should be an improved unit.

On point. If I had to guess since Giants for the most part don't have the flashy big mauler types on the line like Dallas some are really under-estimating this group.

This line has a good chance to be significantly better than the 2011 bunch with some health and more time to gel in year 2 of MacAdoo's offense.

and they do have a great line,but let's not make their line out to be more than it is. All Pro Tyron Smith gets beaten by JPP from time to time. It is not the end all be all.The Giants line is mediocre, but Tyron Smith would get ripped here for allowing JPP to beat him

All you guys deciding whether to pick for need or the best player available are not asking the right question. Let's say a OG and WR are available at number nine with comparable talent ranking. Now you have to figure in what the average salary of that position player is in the league. Remember rookie contracts save teams millions of dollars. So now if you can get a probowl guard for 6 million a year in free agency, why pick one at number 9 when you can get a probowl receiver who commands 12 million per year on the cheap with a rookie contract. So many more pieces to this puzzle than who is the best player or best fit.