"Eli can't throw laying on his back"

Eli had no issue getting the ball to OBJ last year.. The new offense is different from Gilbrides which is predicated on getting the ball out quickly.. that alone is going to reduce the number of sacks.. Now if you want to talk about the RUN game.. then lets talk about that.. but lets stop with the whole.. Eli cant throw laying on his back mantra because the facts dont bear that out..

of the team, as opposed to a weakness.

LT: Beatty
LG: Laken Tomlinson (Rd 2)
C: Richburg
RG: Schwartz
RT: Pugh

Backups: Reynolds, Jones, Jerry, Hickson (Rd 4)

but without decent run blocking we're a 1-dimensional offense. We won only 6 games.

but we need 1-2 more upgrades to be solid imo

In comment 12194273 Big Blue '56 said:

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but we need 1-2 more upgrades to be solid imo

on the Ol..That's what I was referring to in this case

In comment 12194270 CT Charlie said:

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but without decent run blocking we're a 1-dimensional offense. We won only 6 games.

Giants were a one dimensional offense in 2011 and won a superbowl...

End of grammatical interlude.

can lie especially since they don't take into considering pressures or the fact in our system we are trying to get the ball out quickly. One game I noticed we tried going to 5 and 7 step drop to take adv. of the Eagles secondary and we got fucking owned. I think our OL improved but in the end we still had to change the system because our OL was so poor we couldn't execute the Gilbride system anymore. So, he was the scapegoat and got fir...err.. retired.

Our OL I blieve can get better in it's 2nd year. We are getting the ball otu quickly and moving the pocket which is a good thing. Our run blocking sucks though, especially 3rd or 4th and short situations. It would be nice if we stopped trying to run the fucking ball every time.

Let's see what happens year 2.

In comment 12194268 Pep22 said:

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of the team, as opposed to a weakness. LT: Beatty LG: Laken Tomlinson (Rd 2) C: Richburg RG: Schwartz RT: Pugh Backups: Reynolds, Jones, Jerry, Hickson (Rd 4)

Who is Hickson? Sean Hickey from Cuse? That's a remote thrower 4th rounder if that's who you mean...

But overall, I agree. 4 of the 5 line positions are set, and we have a couple guys who should be solid enough backups in Jerry, Newhouse, hopefully Jones. We do still need to get another starter though - whether we take someone in the first two rounds or if we can find someone solid at the back end of free agency. Additionally, we need to make sure these top 4 stay healthy, otherwise the whole thing could fall apart quickly.

Beatty, Pugh, Richburg didn't play all that well last year, and Schwartz only played two games, how can you say they are only one player away from being among the best?

Also, would it be better to draft a solid but nothing special offensive lineman at #9 or an All-Pro defensive end or wide receiver?

was the running game -- the Cowboys had a dominant running game -- and the Giants really had a weak running game

Sacks by the way - don't tell the full story -- you have to include hurries and pressures in your analysis

But the Cowboys Front line was much better than the Giants -- I don't care what stats you throw up there - if you can;t get a running game going - that's on your front line.

Somebody else sees the light. Good thread.

everything I read has pro bowl type commentary at OG for the iowa kid.

that's a pretty odd hypothetical

In comment 12194289 AnishPatel said:

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can lie especially since they don't take into considering pressures or the fact in our system we are trying to get the ball out quickly. One game I noticed we tried going to 5 and 7 step drop to take adv. of the Eagles secondary and we got fucking owned. I think our OL improved but in the end we still had to change the system because our OL was so poor we couldn't execute the Gilbride system anymore. So, he was the scapegoat and got fir...err.. retired. Our OL I blieve can get better in it's 2nd year. We are getting the ball otu quickly and moving the pocket which is a good thing. Our run blocking sucks though, especially 3rd or 4th and short situations. It would be nice if we stopped trying to run the fucking ball every time. Let's see what happens year 2.

Getting the ball out quickly helps the offensive line but it all works together.as the season progressed Eli took more deep drops and threw the ball down the field more. To your point about the 1st Eagle game they sacked us 8 times but in the rematch they had 0 and Eli threw for over 400 yards

There are no givens. Derek Brown was supposed to be an All Pro. Jarrod Bunch was supposed to be a monster.

If your scouts say the OL has a higher grade than the WR, you take the OL.

But if they say the WR has a much higher grade than the OL, you take the OL.

Why? Because the higher graded guy is less likely to be a bust and more likely to be a special player.

Giants didn't "need" a linebacker in 1981 or 1984.

it's about running away from the defenders quite frequently to get the pass off, since, quite often, someone on the OL and TE let their man get by.
Watch how COMFORTABLE Brady(and any other QB) is behind a line he is CONFIDENT will hold up until his receiver gets open; and remember how uncomfortable TB was in 42.
You can see it in his stats, and have watched him enough that when he is confident early because of his OL, his timing and passes are better.

But if they say the WR has a much higher grade than the OL, you take the WR.

solely for need in the first round, especially top 10 is how bad teams stay bad.

will have a much higher grade. I think it will be close enough that we take OL.
I also don't see us taking White, only Cooper. and not the Louiville kid either.

or stop the run. Ellis is a big help on the DL stopping the run. I hope the #9 pick is an excellent OL or DL. But if Cooper is there and he's #1 on their board they have to take him. The other WR's pass for me. I don't know any more than I've read here but from what I've read I hope Beasley is our pick. It's still 6 months from the 1st game but I've seen nothing so far to make me think they're going to be any better running the ball. So if they take an OL in round 1 or 2 I hope he's a mauler. They're missing that on the OL.

In comment 12194295 Eric from BBI said:

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Beatty, Pugh, Richburg didn't play all that well last year, and Schwartz only played two games, how can you say they are only one player away from being among the best? Also, would it be better to draft a solid but nothing special offensive lineman at #9 or an All-Pro defensive end or wide receiver?

I think Beatty played fairly well certainly much better that 2013,Pugh and Richburg I see as ascending player that should continue to get better

there is no doubt about that.. but the Eli on his back thing is overrated and overstated.

Yes the Giants need to improve the OL. But you dont pass up top rated talent.. They can get a quality guard in round 2. There is no doubt about that.

Yeah but we still moved the pocket and created space that way. So it was not only 5 steps but moving Eli around left and right. That helped create space to allow us to throw deep. Elis OL wasn't a total shit show. They gave him time so he was able to go down field. There were also times when no one got open. On replay, they showed everyone was covered and no body was able to get open. That's on the Wr talent.

Yes, because we adjusted the second time, which I knew they would. I didn't expect them to run the same gameplan. Not after that shit show game.

Pass protection I am not that worried about. Run blocking I don't trust.

Look at the games and separate the good defenses from the bad. the offense definitely padded their stats against the crap teams. Every time we played a decent (read average) to good defense we couldn't do a thing. We couldn't run and Eli had no time to throw. The quick pass offense and Eli's experience masked a lot of potential sacks. However when the defense knows you only have 3 seconds to trow, and have to do 3 step drops, it eliminates the mid range to deeper passing game. Combine this with zero running game and it makes the defenses job very easy.

This is a case where stats reviewed after the fact are clouding the picture. What people saw during the games is the reality. We need to move the ball against everyone, not just the defenses ranked 22-32. Otherwise we will stay 8-8. or 7-9. With no offense, our defense is on the field all the time. I actually think we had a number of games where the D played well, but wore down because they were out there the whole time.

really killed us. It has for a few years now, actually. Our 3.6 ypc was 30th in the league. For a team that was top 10 in the league in attempts, that is a killer. They would typically throw away downs with ineffective run plays series after series.

I am not saying we must go OL @9, because I don't believe that. But the OLine is a big weakness for this team.

and at some point, like many teams are able too... we have to find a WR in the mid rounds. we lucked into cruz-

is that the qb is under siege. Even under KG's offense. Eli was never among the top 40% of qb's hit or sacked. Some of you need to pay attention when other teams play-their qb's get hit too. Not that any of that will get noticed by the three yard pass and a cloud of dust contingent here.

And thanks to the OP for exploding the myth of the dominant Dallas o-line. Romo got the snot beat out of him last season even with Murray and ended up with broken ribs.

In comment 12194268 Pep22 said:

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of the team, as opposed to a weakness. LT: Beatty LG: Laken Tomlinson (Rd 2) C: Richburg RG: Schwartz RT: Pugh Backups: Reynolds, Jones, Jerry, Hickson (Rd 4)

Please give me Tomlinson. Dude is going to be a stud guard for a decade.

In comment 12194340 PatersonPlank said:

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Look at the games and separate the good defenses from the bad. the offense definitely padded their stats against the crap teams. Every time we played a decent (read average) to good defense we couldn't do a thing. We couldn't run and Eli had no time to throw. The quick pass offense and Eli's experience masked a lot of potential sacks. However when the defense knows you only have 3 seconds to trow, and have to do 3 step drops, it eliminates the mid range to deeper passing game. Combine this with zero running game and it makes the defenses job very easy. This is a case where stats reviewed after the fact are clouding the picture. What people saw during the games is the reality. We need to move the ball against everyone, not just the defenses ranked 22-32. Otherwise we will stay 8-8. or 7-9. With no offense, our defense is on the field all the time. I actually think we had a number of games where the D played well, but wore down because they were out there the whole time.

That's B.S. everyone on this board thought Eli would be carried out on a stretcher against the Rams ..the sacked him once and he ate them alive. In the first half against Seatlle Eli ate them alive as well they only sacked Eli twice.

but can you break them down versus good teams and bad?
If you're getting fat on the easy to mediocre defenses, wrgaf? You need the running game for balance and nearly every time we ran the ball against good to decent defenses we failed.

worthy of being the 9th overall pick. Now if Cooper or White are there at 9 then I believe they have to be the pick. The Giants can get a solid LG in round 2 or even 3.

In comment 12194380 Jay on the Island said:

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worthy of being the 9th overall pick. Now if Cooper or White are there at 9 then I believe they have to be the pick. The Giants can get a solid LG in round 2 or even 3.

Bingo

Eli was under fire constantly. Sacks don't mean anything. Thank goodness he was able to get rid of the ball quickly or the sacks would've been much higher.

This offensive line is mediocre and there is no depth at all.

In comment 12194377 Sec 103 said:

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but can you break them down versus good teams and bad? If you're getting fat on the easy to mediocre defenses, wrgaf? You need the running game for balance and nearly every time we ran the ball against good to decent defenses we failed.

Who were the good defenses that they faced?

Seattle ...2 sacks allowed
Rams ....1 sack allowed
Dallas....2 sacks total in 2 games
Jags ...4 sacks
Eagles ..8 sacks in 2 games

Yes, I meant Hickey who I see as good value in the 4th. But imagine another OT in the 4th if you prefer.

First of all, while this is only tangentially related to the thread, the OL can't run block for shit. Let's all at least admit that and get that out of the way. They open up absolutely no holes for our RBs and cannot get an initial push at all.

Secondly, while the OL did get better as the season went on, I think the numbers are skewed by Eli's ability to get rid of the ball before taking a sack. I wonder what the QB hurries and hits numbers look like.

On top of that, I mean just using the eyeball test shows that Eli is always under duress, and more importantly, doesn't have a clean pocket to step up into. Eli can deal with average of slightly sub par tackles, but he needs to have a good interior OL so he can step up into the pocket and avoid the rush.

Our OL in 2011 sucked, and it was visually apparent that the OL in 14 was worse than in 11. And we all know '13 was an absolute disaster.

Finally, you can't rely on all 4 of our OL to stay healthy. Someone is going to get hurt. Schwartz was so injured last year he was a nonfactor, and now he's going to magically stay healthy? Pugh was either hurt or regressed last year, and Richburg played okay, but not great. On top of that, we all know what we have in Beatty - a slightly above average at best LT.

A lot of people in this thread are basically resigning to saying "well if the OL stays healthy, it could be average".

1) Everyone won't stay healthy
2) This line's ceiling is a C+ at best for this season.

If Richburg and Pugh develop, and we can sign an OG in FA, and draft another OT/OG to be the first off the bench or starter (depending on the round), THEN we'll be in good shape. We're two moves away, but not there yet.

I don't know why they didn't look into the Ben Grubbs trade, or at least bring in Bulaga or Iupati for a look. I believe there is still one or two decent OL on the market, though I may be mistaken.

IF we fix this line and draft a WR, this offense has the potential to be the best Giants O we've seen under Eli - even better than '11.

Cooper/white/Parker-Cruz-Randle-Beckham Vereen-Jennings-WIlliams Donnell

That's a lot of guys with skill. But it's only all gonna tick if we can fix the OL (and if we can nab Cooper, White, or Parker).

Newhouse fit in? Is he a guard or RT?

In comment 12194270 CT Charlie said:

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but without decent run blocking we're a 1-dimensional offense. We won only 6 games.

The Defensive woes had a lot to do with that record, perhaps more so than Offensive failings. Also, factor in the league-leading injuries.

In comment 12194367 HomerJones45 said:

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is that the qb is under siege. Even under KG's offense. Eli was never among the top 40% of qb's hit or sacked. Some of you need to pay attention when other teams play-their qb's get hit too. Not that any of that will get noticed by the three yard pass and a cloud of dust contingent here. And thanks to the OP for exploding the myth of the dominant Dallas o-line. Romo got the snot beat out of him last season even with Murray and ended up with broken ribs.

In 2011, Eli was hurried more than any other QB in football.

In comment 12194426 NYBEN1963 said:

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Newhouse fit in? Is he a guard or RT?

Newhouse was signed to be the backup swing tackle.

rid of the ball quickly is part of it, Eli has NEVER been a QB that gets sacked a lot because he gets rid of the ball quickly the same with Peyton. Aaron Rodger up until this season was always among the MOST sacked QB's because he'd rather take the sack than throw the INT.

Watch the last 2 drives of the cowboys giants game

Cowboys go down field and score while we rush four and have no impact on romo

Cowboys rush 3&4 when we get ball and Eli can't get a clean pocket for more then 3 seconds

I simply can't understand those who say you draft for need at #9. That's how you miss out on Pro Bowlers and maybe future Hall of Famers. Those are the guys who win Super Bowls.

If the best guy at #9 is an OL, you take him. But if you have a much higher grade on someone else, you take that guy.

Beatty played much better in 2014, but he's not a top tier left tackle and he certainly isn't an asset as a run blocker. That's OK, but let's not pretend left tackle is a truly "settled" position - especially given Beatty's contract and inconsistent performance. A year from now, they may cut him. It depends on how he plays.

Teams the offense did ok/well against:
Falcons - #32 in total yds given up (last in other words)
Texans - #16
Skins - #20
Jags - #26
Titans - #27
Rams - #17
Eagles - #28 (game 2)
Cowboys - #21 (game 2)

Teams we couldn't move against:
Seahawks - #1
Lions - #2
San Fran - #4
Cardinals - #24
Eagles - #28 (game 1)
Cowboys - #21 (game 1)
Colts - #11

I think this pretty much shows we could move against the bottom 1/2 of the defenses, but did squat against the top half. The definition of a 500 team. Even some of the weaker defenses we "split on (Cowboys and Eagles). If we are a playoff team, we need to be able to move the ball against playoff teams.

In comment 12194445 Eric from BBI said:

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I simply can't understand those who say you draft for need at #9. That's how you miss out on Pro Bowlers and maybe future Hall of Famers. Those are the guys who win Super Bowls. If the best guy at #9 is an OL, you take him. But if you have a much higher grade on someone else, you take that guy.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In comment 12194445 Eric from BBI said:

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I simply can't understand those who say you draft for need at #9. That's how you miss out on Pro Bowlers and maybe future Hall of Famers. Those are the guys who win Super Bowls. If the best guy at #9 is an OL, you take him. But if you have a much higher grade on someone else, you take that guy.

This to me is a great year to trade down and acquire more picks possibly an additional 2nd round pick

and I don't view cooper or any WR as a much higher grade then the top OL- so with that I feel on this team and at this time the best area to make the largest impact would be that OL.

if you don't view these OL as studs... that is fine. But I don't see a Sammy Watkins... I don't see a OBJ... on the OL side I also don't see a ogden, but I see players that will significantly upgrade our team for a while.

WRs exist in the 2nd and 3rd round as well... the USC kid is not much different then the top guys from my view-

you could probably say similar on OL guys as well... but its not crazy to think their is no stud WR this year that would warrant having one of our top 4 paid players plus 2 1st round picks back to back years.... at WR.

I would rather trade down at that stage.

at a certain draft position (at least not usually). Usually there are a few guys who fall in the same range. My opinion is you look at the guys who are in the that range, and then pick the guy who plays in the position of the most need (since you have them graded roughly the same). I don't want to stretch, but I think what I wrote above is the realistic view of what happens, and I believe I have read interviews with Reese that says the same.

the lack of running game was discussed. what about QB hits?

Giants were 15th in the league in QB hits. Cowboys were 30th in QB hits. So there is another stat that paints a different picture.