How many times have we seen/heard Giants fans say this over the last few weeks? While it is true no QB can throw from his back but how much was Eli really on his back last season? in 637 dropbacks Giant QB's were sack only 30 times or (if my math is correct)once every 21 dropbacks. By comparison the "best O-line in the NFL" down in Dallas allowed 30 sacks in 497 dropbacks,once every 16 dropbacks.
I've heard some fans say the Giants need 2-3 new starters on the O-line. This was the 10th ranked offense with a totally new scheme, I expect these guys to get better as they continue to get acclimated to the offense and better knowing their jobs.Do they need to get better at run blocking ? Yes they do ..but I think Flaherty is part of that problem as well.
I'm not saying this O-line is great but they are 1 dominate LG away from being right there among the best. I still wish we would have tried to get Franklin or Iupati but I think this is a really good PASS PROTECTING offensive line and Eli should continue to put up big numbers in this offense.Beatty,?, Richburg, Schwartz, Pugh....who is the LG?
That Giants will take LSU's wr. Odell Beckham Jr.
Why not add a stud to the line and then add that guard in the second and be confident that the line will be good going forward.
As far as WR goes, when you have a guy like Beckham,everyone else looks much better.especially when you can run the ball.
Falcons - #32 in total yds given up (last in other words)
Texans - #16
Skins - #20
Jags - #26
Titans - #27
Rams - #17
Eagles - #28 (game 2)
Cowboys - #21 (game 2)
Teams we couldn't move against:
Seahawks - #1
Lions - #2
San Fran - #4
Cardinals - #24
Eagles - #28 (game 1)
Cowboys - #21 (game 1)
Colts - #11
I think this pretty much shows we could move against the bottom 1/2 of the defenses, but did squat against the top half. The definition of a 500 team. Even some of the weaker defenses we "split on (Cowboys and Eagles). If we are a playoff team, we need to be able to move the ball against playoff teams.
And that assumes that you are correct. We threw for 280 yards passing against the Niners, a top defense- and threw 5 picks. 2 sacks in 45 passing attempts. We threw for 277 against the Cards- and had 4 TO. In Cowboys 1, we threw for 250, had over 100 yards rushing and 0 sacks. Eagles 1 was a disaster all the way around with the defense putting the team in 20-0 hole at the half. By Eagles 2, 429 passing and 0 sacks.
So, we had trouble moving the ball on the two top defenses, just like a lot of other teams, struggled early in the year against the Eagles, what else is new, and otherwise were able to move the ball unless we were turning it over.
Yes that is very true also.
Amtoft : 4/30/2014 12:37 pm : link
total team player. They needed him at DE he played DE... They needed him at OLB he played OLB... They needed him at ILB he played the Mike. I actually think his best position is at ILB. He is under developed due to moving so many times, but he was solid where ever he went. Put him at ILB or OLB or DE and let him develop into a very good player.
It is hard to archive back because it only goes so far.
Headhunter how many posts do you want? Micky showed one from 4/1/2014 over a month before the draft!
micky : 2:08 pm : link : reply
Quote:
It sounds like, if he's still on the board 4/01/14 Micky:12:42 pm.
That Giants will take LSU's wr. Odell Beckham Jr.
Agreed. But what would your reaction be if they waited to the 4th round or later to address the OL?
I already showed you over two weeks that McShay had him going to the Giants and Kiper had him going 10th. Micky showed that there was talk of OBJ to the Giants over a month in advance. You are wrong so just stop it.
Sorry made my last post before you posted this and posted it wrong. It was just under 2 weeks before the draft.
No worries... Our replies were happening while posts were happening. It is all good.
position value is not an exact science after QB.
one can argue DB is most relevant... another DE... ask the pats and seahawks about WR... there is no exact answer.
just because its a passing NFL... doesn't mean WR is more valuable ---- separately just because our OL sux... does mean OL is the more valuable.
I whole heartedly believe that a pro bowl potential OL is a game changer for the NYG for the next 10 years. we miss Kmac, we miss Snee. seeing what power in those spots offers... to me is more value then a WR.
is that accurate? maybe not... but I believe the NYG if Scherff is on the board will go with that view. and anyone saying its need based... I would disagree- I think its value.
I am down with that!
position value is not an exact science after QB.
one can argue DB is most relevant... another DE... ask the pats and seahawks about WR... there is no exact answer.
just because its a passing NFL... doesn't mean WR is more valuable ---- separately just because our OL sux... does mean OL is the more valuable.
I whole heartedly believe that a pro bowl potential OL is a game changer for the NYG for the next 10 years. we miss Kmac, we miss Snee. seeing what power in those spots offers... to me is more value then a WR.
is that accurate? maybe not... but I believe the NYG if Scherff is on the board will go with that view. and anyone saying its need based... I would disagree- I think its value.
It sounds likes you believe that this is a one round draft?
Sack/Hit numbers don't take into account the number of times Eli was rushed to get rid of the ball without his feet set.
Sack/Hit numbers don't take into account the number of times Eli was rushed to get rid of the ball without his feet set.
They don't tally that for any qb. Other qb's have to throw the ball away to avoid the rush too. Some qb's such as Wilson and Romo get hit and sacked more than Eli despite being more mobile and throwing fewer passes. You don't think they have to rush to get the ball away?
For Eli you tend to get more of the throw the ball away OR force a pass which results in the 2 outcomes.
In my opinion Eli doesn't get credit for it because you tend to get forced pass resulting in INT which then they want to credit his decision making. It's ironic because when he does make plays, it was the same decision making that resulted in a good play. Take the Tyree play. Forced pass category I call it. It resulted in a good play. It could have been an INT, but in my opinion the decision making was the same an effort to make a play rather than take a sack.
It's the same bullshit when Eli tried to throw left handed against the Panthers to Boss in the end zone and it resulted in an int. Eli won't get credit for anything like throwing the ball away or anything like that. People will focus on the forced passes which turn into INTs and then rip on his decision making.
So perhaps how badly the line started last year is influencing our memories about how badly they finished. I feel that by the end of the season, the Giants were closer to an average line then most here feel.
Link - ( New Window )
So perhaps how badly the line started last year is influencing our memories about how badly they finished. I feel that by the end of the season, the Giants were closer to an average line then most here feel. Link - ( New Window )
Well two things. Once is that as the season goes you get comfortable in the new system so you expect the offense as a whole to get better. The other is that towards the end of the season we are playing weaker teams.
I think year 2 will show everyone how good this OL actually is in terms of pass blocking. Run blocking they certainly need to get better. Tired of losing yards running the ball.
Or maybe..just maybe.. throw the ball instead of trying to run every single time.
P.S. I know we can all find stats that support our side of the argument but I think some of the answers to the usefulness of stats we disagree with are too dismissive and don't give enough credit where it is due. The good play against bad teams line isn't used to dismissed the Eagles success but it is used to downplay positive elements (besides Beckham Jr.) about the Giants last year.
To date the only personnel change in the group is a CFL standout that is probably going to switch positions to OG. That isn't enough to get this group where it needs to be imo. There is still time in free agency and the draft to do more. I'd be stunned if we don't do more to improve our O-Line.
P.S. I know we can all find stats that support our side of the argument but I think some of the answers to the usefulness of stats we disagree with are too dismissive and don't give enough credit where it is due. The good play against bad teams line isn't used to dismissed the Eagles success but it is used to downplay positive elements (besides Beckham Jr.) about the Giants last year.
Well that's the thing. People want to use stats, but the way I go about is try to think of the various passing concepts used for each game. I did this after the game so by now I forgot the exact details. I know the 1st Eagles game shit show stood out due to the 5 and 7 step drop backs used. The playacting looked different than the previous games.
In general, we ran:
X and Z hot
checked down to the RB.
curls,
comebacks
hitches.
3 step drops: hitches, curls, slants and different "crossing patterns" specifically levels and Mesh.
So you think of that and then use the stats to see what the numbers were. So you see 2 sacks or zero and someone may say, damn our OL is pretty good in pass protection.
However, if I am running those concepts I listed. Hits and pressures should be the only issue I face, unless teams are getting to me in situations like 3rd and long when I have to run 5 or 7 step passes or a player gets beat badly OR an RB doesn't execute his assignment in pass pro.
Then you gotta figure Eli would rather throw it away or force a throw rather than take a sack. So that sack number could be low, but what else is going on? Was Eli pressured? If so, rather than take a sack he could have forced a throw which: ended up as a great pass OR INT, in which people will say, "Fuck Eli, why did you force it?!"
So he is not getting sacked, but perhaps there was continuous pressure on him for that game.
It all depends. You got to re-watch the game and see what we were trying to do.
The basic stuff like the offense would get better as the season goes on. And towards the end of the season we played weaker teams so that can make the offense AND defense look good.
[quote] did better against bad teams narrative doesn't explain how they managed to give up only two sacks each against the great defenses of Seattle and 49er's in consecutive weeks. Eli also threw for 280 yards those games despite have a limited running attack. The line (which badly needs an upgrade) wasn't the train wreck some are making it out to be.
P.S. I know we can all find stats that support our side of the argument but I think some of the answers to the usefulness of stats we disagree with are too dismissive and don't give enough credit where it is due. The good play against bad teams line isn't used to dismissed the Eagles success but it is used to downplay positive elements (besides Beckham Jr.) about the Giants last year. [/quote
Truthfully Jacksonville actually dominated our O-line pretty good both against the run and with their pass rush. I think they got after us more than Seattle or San fran. Also you can't discount the fact that Eli had one of his BEST statistical seasons ...facts are facts.
I'd also like to see a thread about Coughlin's clusterfucks this year regarding his stubbornness to keep sticking with the run and the perplexing passing gameplan vs. Philadelphia (first game).