...not sure why it has become such a mantra here...almost Jonas Seawright levels at this point.
Pray you are all right....and I am in the "Moore has the talent" camp...just don't get the Spags = Dick Lebeau equation.
And re Selvie, I find it interesting that we now have a front four that is very sound vs the run! JPP, Hankins, Ellis and Selvie (much more of a run defender than pass rush threat IMHO)....but that is great! Stop the damn run. 2014 was putrid bad...OMG. I never turn off a game but I came as close as ever with the run thrashing Seattle gave us....as bad as our loss to Titans...as bad as any in 45 years I remember....NO MAS!!!!!!
You do realize that Moore is only 22 years old. He did have 32 tackles & 5.5 sacks on 318 snaps? Only 30% of our defensive snaps and over 60% less them what JPP played. So if he's out there doing whatever he wants then fine by me cuz he's doing a damn good job in very limited snaps.
So at that pace if Moore got the same amount of snaps as JPP he would 96 tackles and 16.5 sacks.
It's not a coincidence that JPPs sack "surge" coincided with Moore seeing an increased workload. Moore had 40+ snaps in weeks 13-15 and 17. JPP had 8 of his 12.5 sacks in those 4 games.
I think Spags will do more with Moore. He'll figure out the best way to utilize him and we'll likely see a big year out of him.
RE: I love the optimism expressed re Moore and Spags
...not sure why it has become such a mantra here...almost Jonas Seawright levels at this point.
Pray you are all right....and I am in the "Moore has the talent" camp...just don't get the Spags = Dick Lebeau equation.
And re Selvie, I find it interesting that we now have a front four that is very sound vs the run! JPP, Hankins, Ellis and Selvie (much more of a run defender than pass rush threat IMHO)....but that is great! Stop the damn run. 2014 was putrid bad...OMG. I never turn off a game but I came as close as ever with the run thrashing Seattle gave us....as bad as our loss to Titans...as bad as any in 45 years I remember....NO MAS!!!!!!
Some of it obviously has to do with Spags last stint here and the effectiveness of the D under him, but it's also an indictment of Fewell and how many believe that the majority of the D has underachieved under him. By that token, Spags doesn't need to be LeBeau to get more out of some of the guys who have disappointed.
I still expect one more DE to be picked at some point in the draft, but if not, I would still feel comfortable going into the season with a rotation of JPP, Moore, Ayers, and Selvie.
as evidenced by his 5 1/2 sacks despite playing limited snaps. Kiwi had his two best seasons of his career under Spags as he was moved all over the place. I expect Spags to use Moore in the same way as he will play DE, DT, and some LB on 3rd downs. We may see a new 4 aces package with JPP Selvie, Ayers, and Moore with Kennard as a rushing LB.
Doesn't the 89% apply across multiple years though? I thought it was a running average.
That's a good question and I'm not certain. Based on limited info, I just don't see how a team can afford multiple dead money contracts yet remain at 89% without that dead money superseding the remaining 11%.
It's almost like 1 year deal is more easily managed. If the player proves to be valuable teams might extend them to their future plans for an additional year. If he gets hurt or doesn't provide value, rather than accumulate dead money, the contract is over.
If it's a running average, it might be easier but there are still pitfalls if a huge contract or multiple smaller contracts are terminated early. Tough to tell for me at this point.
He was in for a tryout but wasnt signed. That could be for a number of reasons, doesnt mean the Giants didnt want him. It could have been a money issue and his agent was shopping for a better deal which he did get with Dallas.
From what I have seen of him, mostly against the Giants is that he has a high motor. He seems to always be giving 100%. I like guys like that. He may not be a star but if he if coming at you at full speed 100% he will make plays. We got him cheap and although its a 1 year deal , he should be a backup with us not a starter so his stats should make him affordable if the giants want him back
Doesn't the 89% apply across multiple years though? I thought it was a running average.
That's a good question and I'm not certain. Based on limited info, I just don't see how a team can afford multiple dead money contracts yet remain at 89% without that dead money superseding the remaining 11%.
It's almost like 1 year deal is more easily managed. If the player proves to be valuable teams might extend them to their future plans for an additional year. If he gets hurt or doesn't provide value, rather than accumulate dead money, the contract is over.
If it's a running average, it might be easier but there are still pitfalls if a huge contract or multiple smaller contracts are terminated early. Tough to tell for me at this point.
I could've sworn the article claiming the Giants were under the threshold said it applied to multiple years (2-3 year window, IIRC).
Even so, they'd be able to get to the 89% threshold by giving out a couple large signing bonuses. My understanding is the entire SB given in 2015 would count towards the money spent threshold for 2015, even though it's pro-rated over the length of the deal.
I think they still need to draft another DT somewhere in their top 5 picks. Bromley is untested and I don't like Kuhn.
Kuhn is probably gone. He's not a NT and he's not really a 3 tech either. Ellis backs up Hankins and could even play NG if they ever played a hybrid 3-4 on some downs. Jenkins and Bromley are the 3 Tech DTs. And JPP is big enough to slide inside ion long yardage passing downs.
I assume they will keep a developmental type DT on the PS.
Based on last year he should be the starter opposite JPP.
Agreed assuming Ayers is healthy. He was the biggest surprise last season as he looked better than advertised. Regardless of who starts I expect Ayers, Moore, and Selvie to get a lot of playing time as Spags loved to use 4 DE's quite often.
they are going to get the same ROI. Why? I get that if the Giants signed all FA last year to 1 year deals and the only thing they did was re=sign those guys, then I to a degree get the dumpster diving mentality. Explain why these players are those players?
RE: RE: Ayers was pretty good overall, not just a one dimensional player
Based on last year he should be the starter opposite JPP.
Agreed assuming Ayers is healthy. He was the biggest surprise last season as he looked better than advertised. Regardless of who starts I expect Ayers, Moore, and Selvie to get a lot of playing time as Spags loved to use 4 DE's quite often.
Ayers looked really,really good. I hope he heals up in time for training camp.
Well that was quick, I guess all he needed to do was land his plane
In comment 12194469 giants#1 said:Quote:In comment 12194451 Giants2012 said:
Doesn't the 89% apply across multiple years though? I thought it was a running average.
That's a good question and I'm not certain. Based on limited info, I just don't see how a team can afford multiple dead money contracts yet remain at 89% without that dead money superseding the remaining 11%.
It's almost like 1 year deal is more easily managed. If the player proves to be valuable teams might extend them to their future plans for an additional year. If he gets hurt or doesn't provide value, rather than accumulate dead money, the contract is over.
If it's a running average, it might be easier but there are still pitfalls if a huge contract or multiple smaller contracts are terminated early. Tough to tell for me at this point.
From an archived thread ... The league's collective bargaining agreement requires that all teams spend 89 percent of the combined salary cap totals from 2013 to 2016. (The salary cap is in place to restrict what players can earn and owners have to spend; the 89-percent cap floor exists to keep cheapskate owners from purposely not spending at all Link - ( New Window )
Ellis and Selvie solidify a solid rotation inside and out. IF Moore can get it together and become a consistent pass rushing threat this group will be dangerous.
The Giants draft plans at DE will hinge on their evaluation of Moore.
Ellis and Selvie solidify a solid rotation inside and out. IF Moore can get it together and become a consistent pass rushing threat this group will be dangerous.
The Giants draft plans at DE will hinge on their evaluation of Moore.
Moore to me has flashed a ton of pass rush potential. If he is let 'loose' as I think Spags will let him do, I think he has a huge year next year oppo JPP.
and you must admit adding an edge rusher at #9 looks really enticing, as does adding a WR.
Good problems to have. If you didn't understand why posters were saying UFA comes before the draft, relax worrying about needs, etc, this is a good example.
but I would have been more excited about adding Adrian Clayborn for 3 mil for one year. But can't complain about 1.4 mil for this guy. Link - ( New Window )
is young.. and maturing. He has produced. I think one thing Spags will do is figure out what he does well and let him do that.. I think Perry was more like.. I need you to do THIS well before I let you do anything else.
He is a good part of a rotation and being used as a run down DE. The team can then bring in Moore on the pass downs. It also give Wynn another year to develop before really being relied on and provides some insurance if Ayers and Moore are dinged up to start the season.
And the price for which he signed is very reasonable.
The front office is doing a very nice job here in the second round of FA. Now just get 1-2 safties (miles and brown?) and then nail the draft.
Does this signing help the Giants to come to a long term deal with JPP
If Selvie gets a lot of PT at DE it's a bad sign for the team. He won't provide a good pass rush. Can't count on him for it.
He's OK as the last DE on the roster but I would still expect them to find something better. And they may have better already with Wynn.
The bad news is they probably won't try and find another NFL vet at DE. This is a mistake. Hopefully, they can cover it with a good find in the draft at DE.
Lot of people seem to like the move now. If he's getting PT it will change and he will be the 2015 BBI whipping boy.
...not sure why it has become such a mantra here...almost Jonas Seawright levels at this point.
Pray you are all right....and I am in the "Moore has the talent" camp...just don't get the Spags = Dick Lebeau equation.
And re Selvie, I find it interesting that we now have a front four that is very sound vs the run! JPP, Hankins, Ellis and Selvie (much more of a run defender than pass rush threat IMHO)....but that is great! Stop the damn run. 2014 was putrid bad...OMG. I never turn off a game but I came as close as ever with the run thrashing Seattle gave us....as bad as our loss to Titans...as bad as any in 45 years I remember....NO MAS!!!!!!
I think it's because spags will attack where Fewell liked to sit at the p o a and let the play come to them. It will be nice to get ayer them for a change and I think moore can do that very well
He was severely overrated in college. NEVER a top propspect which is why he went back that last year (and played worse).
It's not just the lack of explosion and pass rush. People are overrating his play vs the run too. He's a bottom of the roster player. If he makes your team he's a guy you're looking to upgrade. That's it.
Most of all, I'm not happy that it probably ends any further FA moves at the position.
The good news is the contract and they can cut him before game 1.
To fix the issue at DE, I sure can see the Giants going DE in round 1 with Dupree or the UCLA kid.
Looking at the signed, re-signed, newly signed and likely to be signed players, the roster appears crowded. I count about 55 players that most of us would say should have a real shot to make the 53-man roster. That's not counting the draft picks (probably about 5) who we would expect to make the roster.
There is going to be a lot of good competition, and decisions that might be made based on training camp injuries.
Selvie serves a purpose for now as depth and/or a hedge against Ayers' being on the mend, but he's definitely a last DE on the roster type of talent.
I'm onboard with Dupree or OO, both fit the NYG DE paradigm, imv.
TTH, realistically you've got one starting caliber DE in JPP, and the rest are upgradeable pieces. Can they do enough to get by? I suppose, but for a 4-3 defense DE needs to be a position of strength, not adequacy.
In his first year with the Cowboys in 2013, Selvie started every game. He finished second on the team with seven sacks, which was one more than Cowboys all-time sacks leader DeMarcus Ware. Selvie also tied for the team lead in 2013 with seven tackles for loss. He was third on the team with 22 quarterback pressures and had 39 tackles.
Need depth but agree with the point we are lacking in front line talent
what made Spags special here was special talent up front. Right now we have 1 "horse" - JPP. We need another few guys who scare the sh#t outta people and thats not easy to get.
Selvie serves a purpose for now as depth and/or a hedge against Ayers' being on the mend, but he's definitely a last DE on the roster type of talent.
I'm onboard with Dupree or OO, both fit the NYG DE paradigm, imv.
TTH, realistically you've got one starting caliber DE in JPP, and the rest are upgradeable pieces. Can they do enough to get by? I suppose, but for a 4-3 defense DE needs to be a position of strength, not adequacy.
Ayers was every bit a quality starter last season which should make people a little more comfortable and yet doesn't, and I'm not sure why. It's not like he blew out his knee and we have no idea if he'll be the same.
Moore needs to play. He's a second round pick who's had his flashes. He has to be part of it, and not just a minimized role. It's time to find out what he is from this point on so you can have a sense of his place on the roster. Jenkins and Selvie are fine depth. Wynn is another prospect.
Pray you are all right....and I am in the "Moore has the talent" camp...just don't get the Spags = Dick Lebeau equation.
And re Selvie, I find it interesting that we now have a front four that is very sound vs the run! JPP, Hankins, Ellis and Selvie (much more of a run defender than pass rush threat IMHO)....but that is great! Stop the damn run. 2014 was putrid bad...OMG. I never turn off a game but I came as close as ever with the run thrashing Seattle gave us....as bad as our loss to Titans...as bad as any in 45 years I remember....NO MAS!!!!!!
Quote:
You do realize that Moore is only 22 years old. He did have 32 tackles & 5.5 sacks on 318 snaps? Only 30% of our defensive snaps and over 60% less them what JPP played. So if he's out there doing whatever he wants then fine by me cuz he's doing a damn good job in very limited snaps.
So at that pace if Moore got the same amount of snaps as JPP he would 96 tackles and 16.5 sacks.
It's not a coincidence that JPPs sack "surge" coincided with Moore seeing an increased workload. Moore had 40+ snaps in weeks 13-15 and 17. JPP had 8 of his 12.5 sacks in those 4 games.
I think Spags will do more with Moore. He'll figure out the best way to utilize him and we'll likely see a big year out of him.
Pray you are all right....and I am in the "Moore has the talent" camp...just don't get the Spags = Dick Lebeau equation.
And re Selvie, I find it interesting that we now have a front four that is very sound vs the run! JPP, Hankins, Ellis and Selvie (much more of a run defender than pass rush threat IMHO)....but that is great! Stop the damn run. 2014 was putrid bad...OMG. I never turn off a game but I came as close as ever with the run thrashing Seattle gave us....as bad as our loss to Titans...as bad as any in 45 years I remember....NO MAS!!!!!!
Some of it obviously has to do with Spags last stint here and the effectiveness of the D under him, but it's also an indictment of Fewell and how many believe that the majority of the D has underachieved under him. By that token, Spags doesn't need to be LeBeau to get more out of some of the guys who have disappointed.
Spags gets up the field which plays right into Moore's strengths. he will kill it for Spags in Osi's old position, watch
Doesn't the 89% apply across multiple years though? I thought it was a running average.
That's a good question and I'm not certain. Based on limited info, I just don't see how a team can afford multiple dead money contracts yet remain at 89% without that dead money superseding the remaining 11%.
It's almost like 1 year deal is more easily managed. If the player proves to be valuable teams might extend them to their future plans for an additional year. If he gets hurt or doesn't provide value, rather than accumulate dead money, the contract is over.
If it's a running average, it might be easier but there are still pitfalls if a huge contract or multiple smaller contracts are terminated early. Tough to tell for me at this point.
From what I have seen of him, mostly against the Giants is that he has a high motor. He seems to always be giving 100%. I like guys like that. He may not be a star but if he if coming at you at full speed 100% he will make plays. We got him cheap and although its a 1 year deal , he should be a backup with us not a starter so his stats should make him affordable if the giants want him back
Quote:
In comment 12194451 Giants2012 said:
Doesn't the 89% apply across multiple years though? I thought it was a running average.
That's a good question and I'm not certain. Based on limited info, I just don't see how a team can afford multiple dead money contracts yet remain at 89% without that dead money superseding the remaining 11%.
It's almost like 1 year deal is more easily managed. If the player proves to be valuable teams might extend them to their future plans for an additional year. If he gets hurt or doesn't provide value, rather than accumulate dead money, the contract is over.
If it's a running average, it might be easier but there are still pitfalls if a huge contract or multiple smaller contracts are terminated early. Tough to tell for me at this point.
I could've sworn the article claiming the Giants were under the threshold said it applied to multiple years (2-3 year window, IIRC).
Even so, they'd be able to get to the 89% threshold by giving out a couple large signing bonuses. My understanding is the entire SB given in 2015 would count towards the money spent threshold for 2015, even though it's pro-rated over the length of the deal.
I just am not sure what Spags is going to bring given TC's comments re "Spags learned a lot in his time away..."
I am content thinking we have a run first DE in Selvie and 2 pass rush first DEs in Ayers and Moore....
Stop the g...damn run!!!
We have some talent at CB and I think can rush the passer if it's not 3rd and 1 every time ....let alone 2nd and 2!
Quote:
.
let's see. we did a lot of diving to fill the roster last year and much of that did not turn into gold.
Ummm, we were shopping at Nordstorm's, if not Neiman Marcus, last year. We were far from the dumpster.
Kuhn is probably gone. He's not a NT and he's not really a 3 tech either. Ellis backs up Hankins and could even play NG if they ever played a hybrid 3-4 on some downs. Jenkins and Bromley are the 3 Tech DTs. And JPP is big enough to slide inside ion long yardage passing downs.
I assume they will keep a developmental type DT on the PS.
I am talking about adding either a premium two way End, and/ or a DT/DE tweener, or a "3/4" type end to the roster as well and looking for room.
As for those who like how Moore might improve, I am all for keeping him on the roster, ......as a "linebacker" (5th DL)
and I like the selvie and ellis moves a lot, however:
in short:
"we are not done yet"
Agreed assuming Ayers is healthy. He was the biggest surprise last season as he looked better than advertised. Regardless of who starts I expect Ayers, Moore, and Selvie to get a lot of playing time as Spags loved to use 4 DE's quite often.
Quote:
Based on last year he should be the starter opposite JPP.
Agreed assuming Ayers is healthy. He was the biggest surprise last season as he looked better than advertised. Regardless of who starts I expect Ayers, Moore, and Selvie to get a lot of playing time as Spags loved to use 4 DE's quite often.
Ayers looked really,really good. I hope he heals up in time for training camp.
Doesn't the 89% apply across multiple years though? I thought it was a running average.
That's a good question and I'm not certain. Based on limited info, I just don't see how a team can afford multiple dead money contracts yet remain at 89% without that dead money superseding the remaining 11%.
It's almost like 1 year deal is more easily managed. If the player proves to be valuable teams might extend them to their future plans for an additional year. If he gets hurt or doesn't provide value, rather than accumulate dead money, the contract is over.
If it's a running average, it might be easier but there are still pitfalls if a huge contract or multiple smaller contracts are terminated early. Tough to tell for me at this point.
From an archived thread ...
The league's collective bargaining agreement requires that all teams spend 89 percent of the combined salary cap totals from 2013 to 2016. (The salary cap is in place to restrict what players can earn and owners have to spend; the 89-percent cap floor exists to keep cheapskate owners from purposely not spending at all
Link - ( New Window )
The Giants draft plans at DE will hinge on their evaluation of Moore.
The Giants draft plans at DE will hinge on their evaluation of Moore.
Moore to me has flashed a ton of pass rush potential. If he is let 'loose' as I think Spags will let him do, I think he has a huge year next year oppo JPP.
Good problems to have. If you didn't understand why posters were saying UFA comes before the draft, relax worrying about needs, etc, this is a good example.
Link - ( New Window )
Cap?
New York Giants Sign Defensive End George Selvie (Updated with quotes) - ( New Window )
And the price for which he signed is very reasonable.
The front office is doing a very nice job here in the second round of FA. Now just get 1-2 safties (miles and brown?) and then nail the draft.
He's OK as the last DE on the roster but I would still expect them to find something better. And they may have better already with Wynn.
The bad news is they probably won't try and find another NFL vet at DE. This is a mistake. Hopefully, they can cover it with a good find in the draft at DE.
Lot of people seem to like the move now. If he's getting PT it will change and he will be the 2015 BBI whipping boy.
Pray you are all right....and I am in the "Moore has the talent" camp...just don't get the Spags = Dick Lebeau equation.
And re Selvie, I find it interesting that we now have a front four that is very sound vs the run! JPP, Hankins, Ellis and Selvie (much more of a run defender than pass rush threat IMHO)....but that is great! Stop the damn run. 2014 was putrid bad...OMG. I never turn off a game but I came as close as ever with the run thrashing Seattle gave us....as bad as our loss to Titans...as bad as any in 45 years I remember....NO MAS!!!!!!
I think it's because spags will attack where Fewell liked to sit at the p o a and let the play come to them. It will be nice to get ayer them for a change and I think moore can do that very well
It's not just the lack of explosion and pass rush. People are overrating his play vs the run too. He's a bottom of the roster player. If he makes your team he's a guy you're looking to upgrade. That's it.
Most of all, I'm not happy that it probably ends any further FA moves at the position.
The good news is the contract and they can cut him before game 1.
To fix the issue at DE, I sure can see the Giants going DE in round 1 with Dupree or the UCLA kid.
There is going to be a lot of good competition, and decisions that might be made based on training camp injuries.
Ayers
Jenkins
Moore
Selvie
Wynn
Even leaving off the inevitable camp invites and practice squad players.
There are only so many roster spots.
I'm onboard with Dupree or OO, both fit the NYG DE paradigm, imv.
TTH, realistically you've got one starting caliber DE in JPP, and the rest are upgradeable pieces. Can they do enough to get by? I suppose, but for a 4-3 defense DE needs to be a position of strength, not adequacy.
what made Spags special here was special talent up front. Right now we have 1 "horse" - JPP. We need another few guys who scare the sh#t outta people and thats not easy to get.
I'm onboard with Dupree or OO, both fit the NYG DE paradigm, imv.
TTH, realistically you've got one starting caliber DE in JPP, and the rest are upgradeable pieces. Can they do enough to get by? I suppose, but for a 4-3 defense DE needs to be a position of strength, not adequacy.
Ayers was every bit a quality starter last season which should make people a little more comfortable and yet doesn't, and I'm not sure why. It's not like he blew out his knee and we have no idea if he'll be the same.
Moore needs to play. He's a second round pick who's had his flashes. He has to be part of it, and not just a minimized role. It's time to find out what he is from this point on so you can have a sense of his place on the roster. Jenkins and Selvie are fine depth. Wynn is another prospect.