There have been some great threads on BBI in the last week on potential DE's for the Giants (I include Beasley in that group). Ray, Gregory, Dupree, Armstead, etc.
Dupree tape looked awful...saw very few impact players...so I'm praying that both these players are selected before the Giants pick...the pass rushers I like most @9 based on tape:
1) Beasley
2) Gregory
3) Ray
Like Beasley the most based on the fact that he look good in OLB drills and can play in space....I have questions about Gregory and Ray's ability to play in space...so picking them for DE only make them riskier picks...Think Gregory has the most upside...and long term potential.
but it sounds like the giants like odi. really powerful hands, long arms. runs the arc. old school 2-way DE. i bet we take him in round 2 if he's there
but I don't think he'll be there. I'd pass on Beasley because he's a 3-4 OLB, but would support the pick because of his talent. I just don't want to use day one or two picks on position switchers, or guys with character or injury concerns. But again, I don't think he'll be there either. That leaves Gregory and Ray, who I would also pass on for the same reason as Beasley. No interest in Dupree at #9. One guy no one is discussing is Armstead. I wouldn't take Armstead at #9, and I don't think Reese will either, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.
If I had to choose from that group it would be Beasley and that's because I think he would be best of them at the Von Miller/Anthony Barr type 4-3 OLB.
I would much rather take an OL or WR which is where the strengths of this draft lie (not to mention RB which can be had later). I don't think DL is as big of a need but if we were to take a pass rusher I'd wait until later rounds and look south for players like Preston Smith, Trey Flowers, Danielle Hunter or Anthony Chickillo. In 4-5 years when these rookie contracts are up, I think they will have as much value or more as some of the players suggested to go in the top half of the first.
the game is changing on defense. I think if you get a top flight pass rusher, you re-design your defense around him. I wouldn't just try to fit a square peg into a square hole here.
He produced at a high level against major competition. He passes the eye ball test when you watch him play. He backed all of that up coming into the combine at 246 lbs, and tearing it up.
I saw an interview with him on NFL Network and seems like a focused, smart, versatile player that loves the game.
I think he has the biggest chance of having the same impact on the D that OBJ had on the offense.
Fowler and Beasley. If either man is there at #9 I would take them before any prospect not named Williams or Cooper.
-Cosell thinks Gregory can play 4-3 DE but I have serious doubts his frame will carry enough weight without it being detrimental to his game.
-Dupree gets caught looking too often imo he reacts slowly to the play.
-Armstead is a lottery ticket you're drafting him on potential because he doesn't have the production to warrant the #9 pick.
imo, I don't see it that way. I openly admit I'm an amateur and this is more hobby than anything but I don't see that in this group. Among the players highly discussed in the draft community as 1st rounders I see a high probability of bust potential. I'd include Leonard Williams among that group as well. Again I like Beasley the most and the cleanest/safest out of the bunch. But among the rest of them you never heard/saw them take over a game. I can't remember a draft where so much is being relied upon potential and that goes for other positions too. It's almost like an NBA Draft full of freshman and Euro players. "Raw", "When he blossoms...", "The right coach once he gets to the pros..." has been used more this year than previous years I remember. But again I don't see that kind of potential. To me there are no Millers, Watts, Suhs, McCoys, Clowneys aka surefire defensive lineman among top prospects so with the 9th pick I'd look elsewhere.
They pass the eyeball test to me. They look like NFL sack masters on tape - I think that some of the others will not have as much success in the pros as they did in college.
Based on build/fit for the 4-3, I like Dupree. He also happens to have insane measurables (although I didn't focus on that in my evaluation).
the game is changing on defense. I think if you get a top flight pass rusher, you re-design your defense around him. I wouldn't just try to fit a square peg into a square hole here.
Agreed. There seems to be a greater emphasis on favoring speed vs. size. But I'm not sure the Giants believe that is what is right for them, at least at the DE position. They still seem very interested in DEs who can play the run. Beasley has the best chance of being taken anyway, but I'd still be somewhat surprised if they took him. Even more so, if they took Gregory or Ray. Preston Smith in the second would be a more traditional Giants DE pick.
Beasley and I'm not sure why. When I watch him play,
I would take at 9 would be the kid from UCLA IF his hip checks out, which I doubt it does. Dupree would be my next choice, followed by Fowler. The rest Eric mentioned are strictly OLB in 3-4. But I would not take Dupree or Fowler at 9.
RE: Not impressed with the tapes for Fowler or Dupree
Dupree tape looked awful...saw very few impact players...so I'm praying that both these players are selected before the Giants pick...the pass rushers I like most @9 based on tape:
1) Beasley
2) Gregory
3) Ray
Like Beasley the most based on the fact that he look good in OLB drills and can play in space....I have questions about Gregory and Ray's ability to play in space...so picking them for DE only make them riskier picks...Think Gregory has the most upside...and long term potential.
Think Gee nailed it. Love Beasley and think he is the most explosive of the 3 and has the best chance to drop back as a LB and fare well in space. Gregory also has played at 255 previously and apparently his frame can handle even a little more weight than that.
I also saw Gregory drop back in zone a couple times on film and not look too bad in those situations either. Not the same build as Beasley and won't turn his hips as fast, but he'd likely be worlds better than Kiwi was back there if Spags tried to utilize him that way.
but it sounds like the giants like odi. really powerful hands, long arms. runs the arc. old school 2-way DE. i bet we take him in round 2 if he's there
Considering that Reese seems to ignore the medical round 2 and later this wouldn't be a surprise.
imo, I don't see it that way. I openly admit I'm an amateur and this is more hobby than anything but I don't see that in this group. Among the players highly discussed in the draft community as 1st rounders I see a high probability of bust potential. I'd include Leonard Williams among that group as well. Again I like Beasley the most and the cleanest/safest out of the bunch. But among the rest of them you never heard/saw them take over a game. I can't remember a draft where so much is being relied upon potential and that goes for other positions too. It's almost like an NBA Draft full of freshman and Euro players. "Raw", "When he blossoms...", "The right coach once he gets to the pros..." has been used more this year than previous years I remember. But again I don't see that kind of potential. To me there are no Millers, Watts, Suhs, McCoys, Clowneys aka surefire defensive lineman among top prospects so with the 9th pick I'd look elsewhere.
SJ, the wild-card here is scheme. Is Spags going to rely heavily on traditional 4-3 base or are we going to get some variation of that. OR- Do they feel one of those players can adequately play in space in coverage and/or zone with any sort of frequency?
@dpbrugler: There might not be a more beloved teammate in this draft class than #Florida DE/LB Dante Fowler. His coaches/teammates gush about him
@nfldraftscout: I think Dante Fowler is my favorite player in this class.
@dpbrugler: @AMKing00 Agree somewhat on Beasley, he's a menace in space, but will struggle vs. power. I like Gregory, but his limited build scares me
I think with Jacksonville, Atlanta, and Chicago all drafting pass rushers...the Giants may have to draft elsewhere...Dupree seems too much of a combine guy, watching the SEC he didn't seem that noticeable although I know he picked up some sacks.
But it's not based on anything more than some youtube highlights that showed off his closing speed and relentlessness. Also, Cosell and Boylhart both rave about him and both think he can play DE in a 4-3; and they are two of the most respected draftniks in my book.
Are the only ones I like at this point
For the past couple weeks Armstead has been growing on me alot. Production wasn't there but I think this big fella has some serious upside.
All guys carry some level of projection for a traditional 4-3
"We'll see what happens in the draft, I certainly wouldn't be averse to adding a wide receiver if the value is there, but I certainly don't think that's our primary need right now."
I agree that scheme will play a role for these players but with the #9 pick do we want a player that's scheme specific?
Von Miller was an All American 3-4 OLB that became an All-Pro 4-3 OLB. JJ Watt was a 4-3 DE that became an All-Pro 3-4 rush DE. What I'm saying is that these guys are scheme diverse who could/have/will excel in any defense. If Clowney is healthy this year I'd put him in that mix as well. I don't think the players mentioned have those qualities with the exception of Beasley, although I wouldn't put him on the same level.
- it will be because his body type fits the Giants prototype better than all the other highly ranked pass rushers - besides Odi - and because of his raw potential -- he has the biggest upside of all the pass rushers I've looked at -- he has speed, power and agility -- he is versatile and has lined up all over the field - I don't know much about his intelligence but I assume he has some to be able to line up in all the various positions on defense the way he did
the only thing you can't measure about him is his production - his production was stymied by all the position changes they put him through - but as a raw athlete - this kid is the goods. He has demonstrated major explosive and raw power - he can penetrate with power and speed and he is a gamer with great body control
He doesn't have the flappers that JPP has - but he shows the same type of athleticism - and he has a terrific motor, explosive speed and range on most plays I've viewed of him
Dupree--workout warrior whose play doesn't live up to the numbers. Almost zero instincts.
Gregory--Too thin, plays too high and square. Will struggle against athletic OT's. Will have to play in the 3-4 but I don't see the consistency to play in space.
Ray--Explosive first step but doesn't convert speed to power well. Made alot of his plays on scrambling QBs or QBs that held the ball too long but that won't happen in the NFL. Will have to play with his hand in the dirt but once an OT latches on he's stopped cold. He has to work on that.
Fowler--Coaches love him because he gives 100% effort all the time but that's his only on-field quality. He needs to develop some pass rush moves but he doesn't really bend or gets skinny well.
Williams--Very toolsy but inconsistent effort. On the ground too much for me. Tries to win solely on upper body strength. Some blame the scheme to why he didn't have more dominant numbers such as Watt and Suh (the comparisons that I just don't see) did in their final years but then why did he only have one 3rd down QB pressure all season? I like his toughness in playing through injuries but I'd be taking a very close look to the torn labrum he had late in 2013. If an interior lineman can't get push, that's obviously a problem.
players that will slide further in this draft, and are not worth the #9 pick. Armstead, I'm not 100% sold on either, I have a hard time seeing what position would be best for him.
Gregory is the one player I would highly consider at that position. He's a heck of an athlete, similar to Kiwi, who needs to get stronger, but he is a playmaker.
Fowler I like as well, and he's a disruptive player who will give offensive tackles fits one on one, but I wonder if the Giants would feel the type of player that he is, is too similar to DaMontre Moore.
I agree that scheme will play a role for these players but with the #9 pick do we want a player that's scheme specific?
Von Miller was an All American 3-4 OLB that became an All-Pro 4-3 OLB. JJ Watt was a 4-3 DE that became an All-Pro 3-4 rush DE. What I'm saying is that these guys are scheme diverse who could/have/will excel in any defense. If Clowney is healthy this year I'd put him in that mix as well. I don't think the players mentioned have those qualities with the exception of Beasley, although I wouldn't put him on the same level.
Not necessarily as it comes down to what we want (or are willing) to run vs. if we feel that particular player will fit in that system.
I have little doubt that one of Gregory or Beasley could stud in the right defense. Question is will it be a defense we would be willing to run? Or as you said are they so good that they would excel in almost ANY defense.
Beasley might be as I think with his work ethic and fluidity in his game, he would be at least passable in space/coverage and be able to play LB.
Gregory I question a little more, but man is he quick twitch freaky, long and fast. In the right system, he is going to be a monster.
Fowler should go to a 3-4 team. I could see NYG changing gears and picking Beasley, but he'll be gone. Gregory is the kid I worry about, actually playing DE would be a transition for him and he got knocked around physically in college when offenses were able to dirty it up in front of him.
I don't love any of the DEs, but Dupree has the most football upside to my eye.
there all 34 OLB except maybe Beasley could switch to 43 OLB if someone thinks he can play all 3 downs,otherwise he doesn't warrant a top 10 pick unless he plays in a 34 defense!!!
there all 34 OLB except maybe Beasley could switch to 43 OLB if someone thinks he can play all 3 downs,otherwise he doesn't warrant a top 10 pick unless he plays in a 34 defense!!!
Honestly. Winston or Marriota don't warrant a top ten pick either. I don't think either one is a franchise QB. Bryce Petty and Sean Mannion will be better value and are more pro ready
If I'm going to take a gamble on potential for a DE
it'll be Danielle Hunter from LSU, on Day 2 though. He has the length that the Giants look for. 6'6", nearly 35" arms and 10 1/2" hands. He played last year with a similar build to Gregory but unlike him he was able to put on weight between the season and the combine. His listed weight in season was 240 but was up to 252 in Indy and still had the fastest time among DE's at 4.57 with a 1.57 split. He has a frame that could still add good weight which I'm not sure Gregory can.
The biggest knock on him was having only 1.5 sacks this past season. He does need to develop his pass rush but the good news is he finished with 73 tackles and 13.5 TFLs. He'll still be 20 at the start of the season and is reportedly very coachable with a clean record. We've had more success with 2nd/3rd rd lineman over the past generation than 1st. I think Hunter can continue that. Lance Zierlein compared him to JPP coming out. It's too early to call but if he can get into the 260's with some development I think he'll outshine some of those considered with a higher grade.
LSU's pro day is this week. I'm certain Jerry will be there. Keep an eye on him especially if he can put up good on field and agility drills.
His measureables are defiantely hard to ignore and so is the way he flies around the field. I'd definitely be leary of his lack of production. If he were there from the 4th round on he'd be an interesting prospect to say the least. get him in the weight room and coach him up and you may have something there.
I'd rather have him taking up a roster spot then a guy like wynn with very little upside. with him I think what you see is what you get. I dn't get all the optimism on here about him. If he were that talented a player he would have made the team in the first place last year and not have been a late season add after all the injuries.
1) Beasley
2) Gregory
3) Ray
Like Beasley the most based on the fact that he look good in OLB drills and can play in space....I have questions about Gregory and Ray's ability to play in space...so picking them for DE only make them riskier picks...Think Gregory has the most upside...and long term potential.
I would much rather take an OL or WR which is where the strengths of this draft lie (not to mention RB which can be had later). I don't think DL is as big of a need but if we were to take a pass rusher I'd wait until later rounds and look south for players like Preston Smith, Trey Flowers, Danielle Hunter or Anthony Chickillo. In 4-5 years when these rookie contracts are up, I think they will have as much value or more as some of the players suggested to go in the top half of the first.
I saw an interview with him on NFL Network and seems like a focused, smart, versatile player that loves the game.
I think he has the biggest chance of having the same impact on the D that OBJ had on the offense.
-Cosell thinks Gregory can play 4-3 DE but I have serious doubts his frame will carry enough weight without it being detrimental to his game.
-Dupree gets caught looking too often imo he reacts slowly to the play.
-Armstead is a lottery ticket you're drafting him on potential because he doesn't have the production to warrant the #9 pick.
Based on build/fit for the 4-3, I like Dupree. He also happens to have insane measurables (although I didn't focus on that in my evaluation).
Agreed. There seems to be a greater emphasis on favoring speed vs. size. But I'm not sure the Giants believe that is what is right for them, at least at the DE position. They still seem very interested in DEs who can play the run. Beasley has the best chance of being taken anyway, but I'd still be somewhat surprised if they took him. Even more so, if they took Gregory or Ray. Preston Smith in the second would be a more traditional Giants DE pick.
1) Beasley
2) Gregory
3) Ray
Like Beasley the most based on the fact that he look good in OLB drills and can play in space....I have questions about Gregory and Ray's ability to play in space...so picking them for DE only make them riskier picks...Think Gregory has the most upside...and long term potential.
Think Gee nailed it. Love Beasley and think he is the most explosive of the 3 and has the best chance to drop back as a LB and fare well in space. Gregory also has played at 255 previously and apparently his frame can handle even a little more weight than that.
I also saw Gregory drop back in zone a couple times on film and not look too bad in those situations either. Not the same build as Beasley and won't turn his hips as fast, but he'd likely be worlds better than Kiwi was back there if Spags tried to utilize him that way.
Considering that Reese seems to ignore the medical round 2 and later this wouldn't be a surprise.
SJ, the wild-card here is scheme. Is Spags going to rely heavily on traditional 4-3 base or are we going to get some variation of that. OR- Do they feel one of those players can adequately play in space in coverage and/or zone with any sort of frequency?
If you take him you have to hope it was heavily scheme related and he was thinking too much.
@nfldraftscout: I think Dante Fowler is my favorite player in this class.
@dpbrugler: @AMKing00 Agree somewhat on Beasley, he's a menace in space, but will struggle vs. power. I like Gregory, but his limited build scares me
I think with Jacksonville, Atlanta, and Chicago all drafting pass rushers...the Giants may have to draft elsewhere...Dupree seems too much of a combine guy, watching the SEC he didn't seem that noticeable although I know he picked up some sacks.
Then Gregory.
Then Beasley (if he can play 4-3 end)
Then Dupree.
Then Ray.
For the past couple weeks Armstead has been growing on me alot. Production wasn't there but I think this big fella has some serious upside.
Von Miller was an All American 3-4 OLB that became an All-Pro 4-3 OLB. JJ Watt was a 4-3 DE that became an All-Pro 3-4 rush DE. What I'm saying is that these guys are scheme diverse who could/have/will excel in any defense. If Clowney is healthy this year I'd put him in that mix as well. I don't think the players mentioned have those qualities with the exception of Beasley, although I wouldn't put him on the same level.
the only thing you can't measure about him is his production - his production was stymied by all the position changes they put him through - but as a raw athlete - this kid is the goods. He has demonstrated major explosive and raw power - he can penetrate with power and speed and he is a gamer with great body control
He doesn't have the flappers that JPP has - but he shows the same type of athleticism - and he has a terrific motor, explosive speed and range on most plays I've viewed of him
Dupree--workout warrior whose play doesn't live up to the numbers. Almost zero instincts.
Gregory--Too thin, plays too high and square. Will struggle against athletic OT's. Will have to play in the 3-4 but I don't see the consistency to play in space.
Ray--Explosive first step but doesn't convert speed to power well. Made alot of his plays on scrambling QBs or QBs that held the ball too long but that won't happen in the NFL. Will have to play with his hand in the dirt but once an OT latches on he's stopped cold. He has to work on that.
Fowler--Coaches love him because he gives 100% effort all the time but that's his only on-field quality. He needs to develop some pass rush moves but he doesn't really bend or gets skinny well.
Williams--Very toolsy but inconsistent effort. On the ground too much for me. Tries to win solely on upper body strength. Some blame the scheme to why he didn't have more dominant numbers such as Watt and Suh (the comparisons that I just don't see) did in their final years but then why did he only have one 3rd down QB pressure all season? I like his toughness in playing through injuries but I'd be taking a very close look to the torn labrum he had late in 2013. If an interior lineman can't get push, that's obviously a problem.
Gregory is the one player I would highly consider at that position. He's a heck of an athlete, similar to Kiwi, who needs to get stronger, but he is a playmaker.
Fowler I like as well, and he's a disruptive player who will give offensive tackles fits one on one, but I wonder if the Giants would feel the type of player that he is, is too similar to DaMontre Moore.
Von Miller was an All American 3-4 OLB that became an All-Pro 4-3 OLB. JJ Watt was a 4-3 DE that became an All-Pro 3-4 rush DE. What I'm saying is that these guys are scheme diverse who could/have/will excel in any defense. If Clowney is healthy this year I'd put him in that mix as well. I don't think the players mentioned have those qualities with the exception of Beasley, although I wouldn't put him on the same level.
Not necessarily as it comes down to what we want (or are willing) to run vs. if we feel that particular player will fit in that system.
I have little doubt that one of Gregory or Beasley could stud in the right defense. Question is will it be a defense we would be willing to run? Or as you said are they so good that they would excel in almost ANY defense.
Beasley might be as I think with his work ethic and fluidity in his game, he would be at least passable in space/coverage and be able to play LB.
Gregory I question a little more, but man is he quick twitch freaky, long and fast. In the right system, he is going to be a monster.
Fowler should go to a 3-4 team. I could see NYG changing gears and picking Beasley, but he'll be gone. Gregory is the kid I worry about, actually playing DE would be a transition for him and he got knocked around physically in college when offenses were able to dirty it up in front of him.
I don't love any of the DEs, but Dupree has the most football upside to my eye.
I think he is going to be a tremendous pro. Get him in 1 position and leave him
I'd rather have Shelton or Cooper/white in first round
General can grab OLINE in 3rd and safety in 4 th
Preston smith will be a Player
I'd rather have Shelton or Cooper/white in first round
General can grab OLINE in 3rd and safety in 4 th
Preston smith will be a Player
Good call on Smith. Would be a great option at #40.
Honestly. Winston or Marriota don't warrant a top ten pick either. I don't think either one is a franchise QB. Bryce Petty and Sean Mannion will be better value and are more pro ready
The biggest knock on him was having only 1.5 sacks this past season. He does need to develop his pass rush but the good news is he finished with 73 tackles and 13.5 TFLs. He'll still be 20 at the start of the season and is reportedly very coachable with a clean record. We've had more success with 2nd/3rd rd lineman over the past generation than 1st. I think Hunter can continue that. Lance Zierlein compared him to JPP coming out. It's too early to call but if he can get into the 260's with some development I think he'll outshine some of those considered with a higher grade.
LSU's pro day is this week. I'm certain Jerry will be there. Keep an eye on him especially if he can put up good on field and agility drills.