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Schreff Vs. 2nd Round Guards

Jolly Blue Giant : 3/22/2015 12:22 pm
I have been a big advocate of picking Schreff in the 1st round because he seems to rank in the top 10 (or close to it). My question is, how do the other guards in the draft rank after him? If we chose a guard in the 2nd round would it be a huge drop off? I would hate to pass on a guy like White if we can get someone comperable to Schreff in the 2nd.
2nd Round OG  
Mike in NY : 3/22/2015 12:29 pm : link
While Scherff is more athletic, in terms of run blocking I do not see any downgrade among the OG that will be around at Pick #40. That is not to say that the OG likely to be there in the second round do not have the feet to play in the NFL, but outside of someone like Cameron Erving you are looking more at Chris Snee versus Rich Seubert, a massive road grader versus someone who is going to peel back and lead on a sweep around the other side
A.J. Cann  
AcidTest : 3/22/2015 12:30 pm : link
would be a good pick at #40 if we want an OG.
JBG  
Coach Mason : 3/22/2015 12:33 pm : link
A ton of OL could be had at 40 as this draft is LOADED with red-chip lineman and possible plug and play starters: Humphries,Flowers,Donovan Smith,Fischer,AJ Cann,Tre Jackson,Cam Erving , Clemmings,Tomlinson.

A bunch of these guys carry high grades (one of my favorites is Erving -high football IQ,great size,good feet and extremely versatile).

I think a few would carry a close enough grade to Scherff and some with better LT versatility which is high on the Giants list of importance.
The only reason  
Bones : 3/22/2015 12:36 pm : link
To take Schreff or Lael Collins in the first is because they can satisfy an immediate need at LG, but can also immediately play RT if Pugh moves to LG. They may also be able to play LT down the road. Second round Guards are just Guards, and most lack mobility and may not be ready to contribute right away.
this is a thoughtful question  
ColHowPepper : 3/22/2015 12:41 pm : link
and likely to be very relevant come Draft week. Short of hearing it directly from the Giants (or other) scouts, we'll have to rely on input from Colins, Sy'56s, Kipers, Rangs, Mayocks...

From what I've read, I like Erving too and suspect Clemmings will be gone by the time comes to our 2nd. But there are probably a lot of teams thinking the same way as you lay out, and like planning for battles, once the war begins, it rarely plays out as planned. And still far from a given that we won't go OL at #9, Bill2's sound logic notwithstanding.
Ali Marpet is going higher than people think  
sjnyfan : 3/22/2015 12:45 pm : link
Don't let the D3 fool you.

Every year there are guys that get overlooked, fall into the later rounds and become solid starters at interior OL. A few I like.

Antoine Everett, McNeese St.
Greg Mancz, Toledo
Jon Feliciano, Miami
Mark Glowinski, WVU
John Miller, Louisville

Tackles who will move inside:
Tyrus Thompson, Okla.
Sean Hickey, Syracuse
Mitch Morse, Missouri
Andrew Donnal, Iowa
Laurence Gibson, Va. Tech
RE: JBG  
sjnyfan : 3/22/2015 12:49 pm : link
In comment 12197387 Coach Mason said:
Quote:
A ton of OL could be had at 40 as this draft is LOADED with red-chip lineman and possible plug and play starters: Humphries,Flowers,Donovan Smith,Fischer,AJ Cann,Tre Jackson,Cam Erving , Clemmings,Tomlinson.

A bunch of these guys carry high grades (one of my favorites is Erving -high football IQ,great size,good feet and extremely versatile).

I think a few would carry a close enough grade to Scherff and some with better LT versatility which is high on the Giants list of importance.


Coach I love the list but I think Humphries, Flowers, Erving and Clemmings despite the Senior Bowl will be gone. Smith and Fisher wouldn't surprise me either. In fact, I think Fisher is arguably the top lineman in the class.
RE: The only reason  
Giants2012 : 3/22/2015 1:06 pm : link
In comment 12197392 Bones said:
Quote:
To take Schreff or Lael Collins in the first is because they can satisfy an immediate need at LG, but can also immediately play RT if Pugh moves to LG. They may also be able to play LT down the road. Second round Guards are just Guards, and most lack mobility and may not be ready to contribute right away.


+1 - hit the nail on the head.
Any scenrio that has Pugh, a future star at RT, moving to G is  
213374 : 3/22/2015 1:19 pm : link
pure trash.
excellent thread  
idiotsavant : 3/22/2015 1:30 pm : link
I think Jolly is asking specifically about the extent of the (if any) drop off in guards after Scherf.

That is a really, really important question this year. Is he is 'overall league draft once in 10 years' as a guard...and 'nobody else is close.'

OR (and I have zero idea at all either way)

is he a maybe 17 out of 20 and the next 5 or what have you are maybe a 15 out of 20...with the scouts not agreeing on that....with our guards being tens or 11's as a comp. (again, dont know)

remember, the media puts any player in the 1st.... prior to the actual day.....and we don't know what the actual scouts and teams or coaches think.
RE: Any scenrio that has Pugh, a future star at RT, moving to G is  
TMS : 3/22/2015 1:39 pm : link
In comment 12197452 213374 said:
Quote:
pure trash.
This may be very true. Pugh was getting rave reviews as our future RT. Has that much changed in one year ? Doubt it. No G at #9 IMO.
If he plays Guard, I think Erving would be second  
jeff57 : 3/22/2015 1:40 pm : link
.
Great Question  
Samiam : 3/22/2015 1:44 pm : link
Here are some other questions to consider in answering the thread question. First, is Pugh staying at RT and what's the plan for Beatty long term? If Pugh stays at RT, then taking Scherff or Collins with the 1st pick means they are the long term answer at LT. Pretty sure Scherff is not projected to be a LT; not sure about Collins. If Pugh is not the RT of the future, then it becomes interesting.

The other question for me relates to Zac Martin. I don't think the Cowboys drafted him to be a guard. I think they expect him to be the RT of the future and that made him the 16th pick. If that's true, I don't see either Scherff or Collins drafted with the 9th pick depending on the answer to the Pugh question. You can get quality guards in this draft in the 2nd, 3rd and maybe 4th rounds.
he's an alan faneca  
area junc : 3/22/2015 1:50 pm : link
level Guard. u aren't getting that in round 2
for shits and kicks, using random made up #s  
idiotsavant : 3/22/2015 1:50 pm : link
if our guards are, say, 11's out of 20.

and sherf is a potential 16 or maybe even 17 out of 20 but could also play ORT.

and there are 5 players looking to go in 2 that are about solid 15s at guard, but dont project to ORT.

I would prefer two 15s as opposed to the one 16-17 or ORT.

that changes your team quickly
unless there are serious question marks on your second rounders  
idiotsavant : 3/22/2015 1:51 pm : link
.
RE: Any scenrio that has Pugh, a future star at RT, moving to G is  
LauderdaleMatty : 3/22/2015 1:52 pm : link
In comment 12197452 213374 said:
Quote:
pure trash.


Future star based upon what? He didn't suck as a rookie? Took a huge step back before he got hurt. Then when healthy was barely medicore?

Great kid but zero chance he will ever be a star
conversely, if your second rounders are only 12's or 13's  
idiotsavant : 3/22/2015 1:52 pm : link
that would be different
Idiot savant  
Jolly Blue Giant : 3/22/2015 1:57 pm : link
I'm having trouble following you. Do you mean 15 out of 20 with 20 being a rating score?
Joel Bitonio went 35th overall last year  
Eric on Li : 3/22/2015 1:57 pm : link
He started for Cleveland and was PFF's highest rated rookie guard (even over Zack Martin). Larry Worford was a 3rd round pick just a couple years ago and I believe he won some rookie of the year honors starting every game for Detroit. Snee was obviously an early 2nd rounder. Max Unger & Alex Mack were both 2nd rounders fairly recently. Eric Steinbach a bunch of years ago. Heck, he wasn't an all pro but Richburg was a day 1 starter, out of position, as a 2nd rounder from Reese just last year.

It is not unreasonable to think that they will wait until the 2nd round for an offensive lineman and it's also not unreasonable to hope to get an above average player who can start from day 1 there. I'd have no problem picking Collins or Scherff in round 1 if they think they are on another level (or just have the added flexibility to play T) or if they love a guy like Tomlinson or Fisher whom they expect to be available in the 2nd.
I would even be mad  
Jolly Blue Giant : 3/22/2015 2:02 pm : link
If they went o line in Rd 1 AND Rd 2
jolly, yes  
idiotsavant : 3/22/2015 2:02 pm : link
with 20 being better than the best ever.

And I have no idea at all here. But measuring the drop off is the thing.

And maybe comparing that to the drop off at DT or even DE.

so you work the whole draft in your thinking.

but the scherf question is a bog one this year.

its all about the drop offs.

I have not hidden that I am a dork for the trade downs, but you have a good thread here.
I agree about the drop offs though, that's the decision  
Eric on Li : 3/22/2015 2:06 pm : link
they need to make, which is why I think this thread is a very interesting one. The 9th pick can be used to find a rare commodity, be it a double digit sack guy or a star WR. We know how difficult it is to find those guys anywhere, let alone in middle rounds.

OL on the other hand are regularly found anywhere, and generally speaking it's possible to get a premium non-LT prospect in the 2nd round. What is the drop-off from Scherff/Collins to Fisher/Tomlinson/Humphries/Erving/Cann/etc.?
We dont need guards  
#10* : 3/22/2015 2:19 pm : link
we need tackles. Two of them preferably.
unless the Iowa guy can definitely play LT  
HomerJones45 : 3/22/2015 2:22 pm : link
don't waste a #9 on someone who is likely to be a disappointment. Iowa has a long history of pumping up their o-linemen into #1 picks where they invariably disappoint.
MY 2 cents  
blapre74 : 3/22/2015 2:22 pm : link
on guards in round one. The next John Hannah isn't coming out, so take a guard in the later rounds. Reese has said that he'll take a playmaker in round one over a guard anytime. I like BPA, and if White or Cooper is sitting there, they'll be on the Giants.
Someone said that there are a lot of red chip guards in this draft. I've read this isn't a great draft, so drafting in the middle rounds is especially important.
RE: Joel Bitonio went 35th overall last year  
Coach Mason : 3/22/2015 2:32 pm : link
In comment 12197541 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
He started for Cleveland and was PFF's highest rated rookie guard (even over Zack Martin). Larry Worford was a 3rd round pick just a couple years ago and I believe he won some rookie of the year honors starting every game for Detroit. Snee was obviously an early 2nd rounder. Max Unger & Alex Mack were both 2nd rounders fairly recently. Eric Steinbach a bunch of years ago. Heck, he wasn't an all pro but Richburg was a day 1 starter, out of position, as a 2nd rounder from Reese just last year.

It is not unreasonable to think that they will wait until the 2nd round for an offensive lineman and it's also not unreasonable to hope to get an above average player who can start from day 1 there. I'd have no problem picking Collins or Scherff in round 1 if they think they are on another level (or just have the added flexibility to play T) or if they love a guy like Tomlinson or Fisher whom they expect to be available in the 2nd.


Eric on point. The reason why you don't go OL at 9 unless a prototype LT/RT lean/mean/elite feet machine like Tyron Smith is there. Is Peat that? I like his upside but not the ideal body type. Wouldn't be devastated if he was the pick but not if Cooper somehow makes it to 9. Passing up White and Parker would bother me, though not as much.
RE: We dont need guards  
Eric on Li : 3/22/2015 2:35 pm : link
In comment 12197604 #10* said:
Quote:
we need tackles. Two of them preferably.


That's an unrealistic POV imo. Beatty was a 2nd round pick who has graded out as a top 10 LT 2 of the past 3 years according to PFF, starting 47/48 games over that period of time. Pugh was a 1st round pick who has started 30/32 games since entering the league, having a slightly positive grade his rookie season and then slightly negative second season.

Could either be upgraded? Sure. But any team could say that about most of their roster. There was maybe 1 RT upgrade in FA (signed for 7M/year) and it's debatable that there's any upgrade in the draft. With rookies there are no guarantees, as evidenced by Greg Robinson last year who was a hands down better prospect than anyone this year and had a really bad rookie year (-24 grade according to PFF).

I agree this line needs an infusion of premium talent, but I think you can add an anchor player at any position and it would elevate the unit as a whole. Beatty and Pugh in particular have proven they can be solid players, the last 2 years IMO have been more of an indictment of the over-the-hill/talentless stop gaps who've been put next to them the last 2 seasons. Diehl, Brewer, & Cordle played in over half of the games between those 2 guys in 2013 and last year we all know how Jerry/Richburg/Walton went.
and greg jennings, jordy nelson, randal cobb,  
hitdog42 : 3/22/2015 2:39 pm : link
and last years rookie for the packers... all came in the 2nd round. you can do analysis about getting a position later in the draft for every position.
its called data mining.
OL stats according to PFF for reference  
Eric on Li : 3/22/2015 2:42 pm : link
2013
Pugh +2 (1000 snaps)
Beatty -11 (1000 snaps)
Boothe -10 (1000 snaps)
Cordle - 5 (400 snaps)
Brewer -10 (400 snaps)
Diehl -25 (700 snaps)

2014
Beatty +13 (1100 snaps) - 2nd highest rated offensive player behind OBJ
Pugh -2.6 (930 snaps)
RIchburg -14 (1000 snaps)
Jerry -16 (1100 snaps)
Walton -19 (1100 snaps)
Oline is a concern  
blapre74 : 3/22/2015 2:45 pm : link
but two tackles is ridiculous. They need one starting player, probably no tackles rate the value at #9. Take a playmaker on round one, then they have 7 more choices to find a good lineman. Isn't Schwartz coming back as a starter?
IMO  
Jolly Blue Giant : 3/22/2015 2:50 pm : link
As things stand right now, we need a "plug and play" above average starting guard to make the o line whole. If we can get that in the second round, I'm fine with a pass rusher or WR in the 1st.
RE: and greg jennings, jordy nelson, randal cobb,  
Eric on Li : 3/22/2015 2:51 pm : link
In comment 12197644 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
and last years rookie for the packers... all came in the 2nd round. you can do analysis about getting a position later in the draft for every position.
its called data mining.


Yes, but most analysis that have been done have shown that premium OL picks tend to bust less than other positions. Here's 1 for example which looks at 1st rounders, but I think it's safe to assume a similar trend would hold for round 2. Again, I'm not arguing one way or another. I'd be happy with an OL in round 1 or round 2. Just saying that given history there's much more certainty that you can get an above average starter from day 1 at OL in round 2 vs. other positions - hence why the thread is an interesting topic to see analyzed, as to whether or not those that follow this stuff closely (not me) see a big difference between the tiers or not.

Also to the general point about OL being more able to start right away, all of the guys you named were obviously "pro bowl level talents" and 2 of them didn't even start a single game their rookie seasons. Took Jordy Nelson 4 years to have a big role on the Packers offense.
Which positions are the safest to draft in the first round? - ( New Window )
Reese's track record  
Reb8thVA : 3/22/2015 3:15 pm : link
Picking OL after the second round isn't exactly stellar!
RE: JBG  
Milton : 3/22/2015 3:16 pm : link
In comment 12197387 Coach Mason said:
Quote:
A ton of OL could be had at 40 as this draft is LOADED with red-chip lineman and possible plug and play starters
If there's a ton of OL that can be had at 40, there are at least two tons of WR's that can be had there. WR is probably the deepest position in the draft. There will be guys available in the 3rd and 4th rounds that are just some pedigree away from the top three that you are salivating over. Tyler Lockett and Ty Montgomery are two of my favorites, but just sticking with guys who's first name begins with T, there is also Tony Lippet and Tre McBride.

And if you want to widen the search to other letters of the alphabet, you have Sammie Coats, Jaelen Strong, the freakish Chris Conley, Breshad Perriman, Rashad Greene, Devin Smith, Nelson Agoholor (you can't go wrong with a guy named Nelson), Philip Dorsett, Devin Funchess, Dorial Greene-Beckam, and Justin Hardy.

Some of these guys will still be available on day three (that's how deep the WR position is) as opposed to the OL names you dropped of which half of them will be gone by the time the Giants are on the clock at #40 (do you really think Erick Flowers, Cameron Irving, TJ Clemmings, and Jake Fisher will still be in play?).
p.s.-- And at least half of the OL you named will be gone before 40.

CBS Sportline Prospect Rankings - ( New Window )
RE: The only reason  
Milton : 3/22/2015 3:18 pm : link
In comment 12197392 Bones said:
Quote:
To take Schreff or Lael Collins in the first is because they can satisfy an immediate need at LG, but can also immediately play RT if Pugh moves to LG.
Another reason might be that one of the two is the highest rated prospect by the Giants when they are on the clock.
Milt yes this draft is deep there too  
Coach Mason : 3/22/2015 3:24 pm : link
Big difference comes with projection.

The OL available at 40 IMO are less risks than the receivers coupled with some very high blue-chip/near blue-chip grades on 2 or 3 receivers at the top.

Cooper/White/Parker + OL@40 in this draft is likely much greater than vice versa.
RE: Milt yes this draft is deep there too  
Milton : 3/22/2015 3:47 pm : link
In comment 12197700 Coach Mason said:
Quote:
Big difference comes with projection.

The OL available at 40 IMO are less risks than the receivers coupled with some very high blue-chip/near blue-chip grades on 2 or 3 receivers at the top.

Cooper/White/Parker + OL@40 in this draft is likely much greater than vice versa.
All this according to who? My opinion is the exact opposite of yours. I would contend that the WR's are much less risky than the OL in rounds two through four because the WR won't be needed as a starter whereas the rookie OL will. And again, half the OL you listed won't even be available at pick#40. If the Giants go DL (which is possible) or WR (which is very fucking unlikely) with the 9th pick they may find themselves forced to trade up from the 40th spot in order to grab an OL that they are confident can step in and start as a rookie.
Milt  
Coach Mason : 3/22/2015 4:01 pm : link
This is why this is a discussion board. Posters will have discussions and likely with that comes differing opinions. You are certainly entitled to have your viewpoint and it is not without merit.

I and some others here see it differently. I am in the minority with a very high grade on Parker but most posters here also place a top 5-10 grade on Cooper and White. I think all the potential OL are a bit below that, with no true elite LT versatile one in the bunch (which history has shown is what the Giants usually prefer this high).

Could that change in this draft? I don't know. Could they see Peat as that elite LT (though he doesn't exactly fit the leaner/quick footed mold of a Tyron Smith and Lewan?)

All great questions but I just see the percentages differently than you do.
Scherff is the best G prospect  
Sy'56 : 3/22/2015 4:13 pm : link
Unless you consider La'el Collins a guard as well.

That said...he is NOT far above Laken Tomlinson or Tre Jackson. The latter two offer better value in round 2 than Scherff does at #9 overall.
People need to resit the temptation to present their opinions as facts  
Torrag : 3/22/2015 4:20 pm : link
It's the draft even the guys that work in the NFL are wrong a significant portion of the time. a little 'imo' does a long way to avoiding annoying the BBI population.
I think most view it as Coach Mason  
dee-fense : 3/22/2015 4:23 pm : link
There should be a OG starter there in Rd 2 a la Chris Snee. Snee was a very good G but not a T...value at 9 this year looks to be same regarding best OL prospecdts.

My biggest objection to Milton's comments are NOT being able to find starting quality G at 40. I am pretty confident Gmen can.

So to that point, WR at 9 and OG at 40 likely yields two starting caliber players. Not true IMHO other way around. May be right or maybe wrong but I think most draft analysts would concur re value in this draft.
Thanks Sy!  
Jolly Blue Giant : 3/22/2015 4:23 pm : link
If that is the case, I would jump all over a guy like White or Cooper in the 1st round and go Guard in Rd 2.
RE: I think most view it as Coach Mason  
Milton : 3/22/2015 4:31 pm : link
In comment 12197745 dee-fense said:
Quote:
My biggest objection to Milton's comments are NOT being able to find starting quality G at 40. I am pretty confident Gmen can.
How do you feel about the Gmen's ability to find a quality WR at 40? Or 74, for that matter? Tell me you wouldn't be excited if the Giants drafted Ty Lockett or Ty Montgomery or Chris Conley in the 3rd or 4th round!
1. OL Scherff or La'el Collins
2. DE Preston Smith
3. WR Tyler Lockett
How would that feel to you?
I find myself like you JBG...but  
dee-fense : 3/22/2015 4:34 pm : link
as my handle suggests, I really wish we could infuse this D with some more talent. Pretty happy with the FA signings but we need more front 7 talent. A guy like Odi form UCLA or Smith from Miss State for DE would make me even happier. If they could sign a guy like Schwartz for that same kind of money to fill that OG spot, even better IMO. Or maybe roll the dice and wait for Marpet etc in Rd 3 but that may not fall right so that's a risk.

Two offensive players would be great value but damn!
...what about that generationally bad D from last year. Spags may be good but could use a few horses too.

Strah, Osi and Tuck and then Tuck, Osi JPP is our Lombardi formula...So we have a long way to go to get to that standard I fear ...ugh....maybe Moore steps up and Selvie continues his improvement so with Ayers we can bring some pressure but not so sure.

I think Eli and the O are good enough to win it all...not close on D!
Milton you just co-opted my three round scenario from two weks ago  
Torrag : 3/22/2015 4:35 pm : link
...unintentionally I'm sure. I like it.
haha Milton  
dee-fense : 3/22/2015 4:38 pm : link
yes, that would not be bad at all. Not like this is black and white AT ALL!

I am arguing out of both sides of my mouth as I can make a case to skip WR in premium rounds as I think we are good there for now...short of injuries.

But we all know the draft is not a need game, but a value add game for next 2-4 years.

If I follow my own line of preference I like the idea of Shelton, OG and maybe CB...but your draft of top OL then DE etc is going to be fine IMO...shades of grey a bit
RE: Thanks Sy!  
Sy'56 : 3/22/2015 4:40 pm : link
In comment 12197746 Jolly Blue Giant said:
Quote:
If that is the case, I would jump all over a guy like White or Cooper in the 1st round and go Guard in Rd 2.


That is where I'm leaning as well.
Doesn't feel bad at all  
Coach Mason : 3/22/2015 4:42 pm : link
actually a decent draft. Preston and Tyler are 2 of my top targets should we not go WR or DE in the first.

However:

Cooper
Cam Erving
Henry Anderson or Odi (who could drop like Tuck did with the medical)

or

Cooper
Preston Smith
Ali Marpet

I'd prefer either scenario b/c Cooper is simply one of the most sure fire things in this draft and the impact player Reese talks about. Cooper and OBJ would be cost controlled the next 3-4 years together and would likely be the top WR tandem in the NFL.
Agree Coach,  
dee-fense : 3/22/2015 4:47 pm : link
that would be sweet.

Can't wait for the season....have a good feeling this year...and that may mean 9-7 but we have done some damage before with such teams!

Perfect health last year and we weren't that far away...but we never got to really know re Beason, Thurmond, McBridge, DRC, Prince etc...that unit has to deliver this year. Ugh!
uh  
Bill2 : 3/22/2015 4:57 pm : link
it would feel like we got a WR who was according to some scouts:

1) Short
2) Thin with little muscle mass
3) Short arms
4) Small hands
5) marginal catch radius
6) fights the ball
7) runs before he catches it
8) can be knocked off route easily ( this was in college)
9) struggles to win contested passes
10) Goes down easily
11) not a blocker
12) Fumbles a lot
13) Durability issues

why wait to 74? Why not draft any WR...that would be more sound then picking another Moss or Jernigan...we need to find an actual contributor on the first four slots.

I think its a depressingly bad draft. Cooper is the 4th receiver in last years draft by comparison?

that all said I do get the emotional appeal of a OG for the Giants. Collins or anyone else they had conviction for at LT is fine imho at 9. Or a defensive player they have a conviction and a plan to use. ( they all seem like experiments given what 4-3 defense have played in the past) So is an OG like Faneca, Will Shields, Bruce Matthews, Tom Mack or Larry Allen.

We badly need another elite and difficult player to handle. In 2015, I cant find the facts to support OG at 9. cant find the player. Cant find the impact. I grant the Giants have a mess on their hands.

that's my other concern about OG not a bona fide above average OT certainty at 9. We have no margin for error with a 9 slot.

just imho
Coach and Milton  
Bill2 : 3/22/2015 5:02 pm : link
I like Preston Smith in the second. Marpet is a little more of a gamble then I think we can afford in 2015. Id like a CB or safety in 3 and a OL project in 4. But I don't know enough about who.

To me I would consider not drafting a WR in the first 5 rounds if not a difference maker. Its impact we are after...not just a position.
Im at the point that I want them to pick a OL in round one  
blueblood : 3/22/2015 5:04 pm : link
so everyone will shut up about it...
post above  
Bill2 : 3/22/2015 5:06 pm : link
should have said..."why not consider not drafting a WR if he is not going to be an elite player for 5 years?"

we have Ogletree, Harris and Parker and a project in Washington. I would not add JAG to that group....id say we have a problem in 2016...but we could not solve it well in 2015.

To me I am not sure about Parker as a draftee. Its a 9 slot difference maker or pass for 2015.

imho
blueblood  
Bill2 : 3/22/2015 5:08 pm : link
there is the appeal of that strategy.

We could have Reese declare now so we can reduce thousands of posts in the next five weeks.

The productivity and GDP of the tri-state area would go up
I can't see a guard with the 9th pick  
Rjanyg : 3/22/2015 5:11 pm : link
Unless he translates to LT. Collins seems most likely to be able to do both IMO. Otherwise you wait to see who is available in round 2.
RE: uh  
Milton : 3/22/2015 5:17 pm : link
In comment 12197793 Bill2 said:
Quote:
it would feel like we got a WR who was according to some scouts:

1) Short
2) Thin with little muscle mass
3) Short arms
4) Small hands
5) marginal catch radius
6) fights the ball
7) runs before he catches it
8) can be knocked off route easily ( this was in college)
9) struggles to win contested passes
10) Goes down easily
11) not a blocker
12) Fumbles a lot
13) Durability issues

And according to other scouts like Drew Boylhart....
Quote:
Tyler is a remarkable athlete with quickness, speed, and almost freakish strength, who loves to play the game of football. He is small, but plays big because he is fearless. He will make any catch, on any down, on any route you ask him to in a game. All you have to do is get the ball to him. His quickness in and out of his breaks is far beyond the best receivers coming out in a draft and on par with most, if not all, pro receivers in the NFL. He shows excellent run after the catch skills and never seems to take a big hit because of his vision and quickness. He is a smart route runner, changes speeds and has more than one gear to go deep. Tyler is addicted to catching the ball once it is in the air...Tyler Lockett is an excellent football player and will impact the day after you draft him for the team that selects him.
Scherff is probably the pick  
Randy in CT : 3/22/2015 5:18 pm : link
because we started early misspelling his name.
Rjanyg  
Bill2 : 3/22/2015 5:18 pm : link
That could be a great pick if he could be a LT. Coach him up and get him to see game speed and replace Beatty in 2016. Or have Beatty resigned as depth or Rt.
bill strong points  
Coach Mason : 3/22/2015 5:22 pm : link
I am of the opinion though that the line is NOT in dire straits. I think health,youth and new offense learning curve played huge detrimental roles last year.

80% of line is comprised of top 2 round picks and one of top FA OGs . All these guys flashed a bit when healthy and later in season when learning curve subsided a bit. Would another quality draft pick help? Certainly , but I don't think the line falls apart without it.

With that said, I'd still like a guy at 40 or latest round 3.

As for WR, most here love Cooper and White and rightfully so. I also think these guys are special talents. Maybe not Watkins/Evans level but honestly I think they are pretty damn close. And I consider Cooper a bona-fide blue-chip receiver and safest pick in the draft. Not one OL has that special grade to overtake the playmakers in my opinion.
Tyler sounds like this years Cobb  
dee-fense : 3/22/2015 5:24 pm : link
Rd 3 steal.

Don't know the player but see why you love him...as does Boylehard...wow
Milt you are hellbent on that OL @9  
Coach Mason : 3/22/2015 5:24 pm : link
And I don't think that is smart drafting strategy.

I like Boylehart too but let's not treat everything he says as gospel either.
Milton  
Bill2 : 3/22/2015 5:35 pm : link
Ok lets divide each report by 50%. what we have is a big gamble. We cant afford gambles in 2015.

btw...given the DB play in his competition it was quite noted that he was rarely hit until after he caught the ball....and when he was it was a problem. That's not going to be true in the NFL. kinda sheds light on a factor Boylhart did not incorporate into his summary ( I dunno Milton...I think Boylhart is one source to consider...I get thrown by the emoting instead of rigor on some players)

I don't wish to go back and forth on this player by player. The truth is that if Cooper/White is there and so is say Collins (who from what I read is more likely a prospect at OT than Scherf) and they pick Collins because of his future as a OT...I would bow to professional folks who know better how to guess right on this subject then I do. Anyway is happens my preference after a draft is to let it go and just watch and root for all Giants to do well
RE: Milt you are hellbent on that OL @9  
Milton : 3/22/2015 5:46 pm : link
In comment 12197857 Coach Mason said:
Quote:
And I don't think that is smart drafting strategy.
I could see the Giants going DL as well, but it would put a lot of pressure on the 40th pick and may force them into trading up in order to get an OL prospect who can be a plus player as a rookie.

Quote:
I like Boylehart too but let's not treat everything he says as gospel either.
I don't treat it as gospel, but as Bill2 would say, I respect the "rigor" that he applies to every evaluation he gives. He watches a ton of film and doesn't fall into the trap of following the consensus.
Cam Erving was a LT  
section125 : 3/22/2015 5:56 pm : link
before he was moved to Center. Pretty versatile guy.

Cooper/White/Parket 1st Rd. Erving rd 2....
I have a feeling that Cooper and White will both be gone  
yatqb : 3/22/2015 5:58 pm : link
when we are up at 9. If that's so (and I'm not as high on Parker as Coach) then imo you are selecting between several OL (Scherff, Collins, Peat), a few tweeners like Gregory and Ray, a so-so DE prospect in Dupree, a NT who doesn't fit our defense in Shelton, another DT who does in Malcom Brown, a mediocre S prospect in Landon Collins, and a CB in Waynes who has been inconsistent, to say the least.

Were the WRs gone, I think the guy who best fits our short and long-term needs is Scherff, who will be an excellent OG and likely could be an excellent RT as well. (I like him better than Collins, but for those who like Collins better, OL still meets our needs better than the alternatives, imo.)

Malcom Brown would be the second best fit on that list for me, but I'd be shocked if we selected him since this draft is deep in 3-technique DTs.

Were we to go for someone like Parker, it's more of a low floor/high ceiling pick for us, the type we've tried to shy away from in recent years.

And if either Cooper or White fell to us, you'd likely have to take them, but then would have a problem, since imo you'd need to land a starting OG and a starting S in the next two rounds, not the easiest thing to pull off.

As for the OGs in Round 2, Tomlinson's lack of mobility doesn't fit us, Tre Jackson although a really big man seems to be a MUCH better Boothe (and that's a good thing, imo) and guys like Flowers and Erving will be long gone, and Cann just doesn't do much for me...he seems like an OG who is mostly a straight ahead type. So for me it's Tre Jackson or nothing in Round 2 if we don't go OL in Round 1.

That's my argument for an OG at 9. It allows you to go DL (whether DE or DT) and S in the next two rounds. It also allows us to rely upon the WRs we have now, with a passing game that has already been augmented by Vereen, and with Cruz as a bonus when/if he returns to anywhere close to past form. Imo our passing attack will continue to be lethal whether we add a WR at 9 or not.

And, guys, I'm a huge fan of Preston Smith, so much so that I fear he may not be there for us at 40.

Sorry for the long post, and I'm gone for much of the evening, but I'll check back in to read more of this interesting discussion.
RE: Cam Erving was a LT  
Milton : 3/22/2015 6:00 pm : link
In comment 12197901 section125 said:
Quote:
before he was moved to Center. Pretty versatile guy.

Cooper/White/Parket 1st Rd. Erving rd 2....
Anything is possible, but in every mock draft I've seen Erving is selected in the first round. I think the odds are slim and none that he lasts until the 40th pick.
really is  
area junc : 3/22/2015 6:02 pm : link
unbelievable how many people want to go WR round 1.
total lack of team-building vision
I agree with Bill on almost all points  
Eric on Li : 3/22/2015 6:10 pm : link
I'd only take WR in the first 3 rounds if it's an impact player (if someone is sitting there at 9, then it's got to be a consideration).

I'd only consider on OL at 9 if they had the projection to play T as well (if they start at LG that's fine).

With the 1st 2 picks they need to hit on them, so if there's a player they have conviction on, then you do it, no questions asked. My preference for first 3 picks would be some combo of OL, pass rusher, DB.

Main point of disagreement would be Cooper being the 4th best WR last year. You would be hard pressed to find a guy with a more comparable resume to Sammy Watkins in the entire NFL database, and he was the undisputed #1 WR last year even according to Reese. Their measurements and combine drills were almost identical, total college receptions, TDs, yards, YPC, minor injury concerns, both 5 star HS prospects from Florida, both 20 year old juniors at draft (ironically both with Birthdays in June).
Milton  
stretch234 : 3/22/2015 6:12 pm : link
Do you think there is a reason there has been only 1 OG drafted in the top 10 in the last 15 years. The NFL collectively believes you do not draft a top 10 player at that position. Now couple that with the fact that he is not as highly rated as most of the top OL drafted the last 3 years

Yes, an OG is needed, but unless you are guaranteed a guy who will be top 3 or 4 at his position, you wait.

I think C. Nicks, J, Evans, M. Yanda, J. Sitton and recent others prove this
RE: really is  
section125 : 3/22/2015 6:18 pm : link
In comment 12197907 area junc said:
Quote:
unbelievable how many people want to go WR round 1.
total lack of team-building vision


Because a passing offense shouldn't have WRs to put pressure on the defense?
area junc  
Bill2 : 3/22/2015 6:19 pm : link
1) I gave my reasoning as to why in this particular year if available a WR might be best for the whole of the Giants for several years

2) You think differently

3) I fully understand why and do not think it is at all diffecient thinking to propose OL

4) I did so without putting you or your capacity down.



junc-ster, No issue with a top edge rusher  
Coach Mason : 3/22/2015 6:21 pm : link
but all carry a bit of projection.

Like Beasley and Gregory the most but that may be in a non-traditional 4-3 DE role that the staff would be willing to deploy AND have confidence that either could be effective in that role.
The Watkins vs. Cooper comparison  
Eric on Li : 3/22/2015 6:27 pm : link
--------------Watkins-------------Cooper
HT-------------6'1------------------6'1
WT------------211------------------211
ARM-----------32------------------31.5
HAND---------9.5-------------------10
CaYDS-------3391-----------------3463 (both in 3 same aged seasons)
CaREC-------240-------------------228
CaTD----------27--------------------31
40-------------4.43-----------------4.42
VERT----------34--------------------33
3 CONE------6.95-------------------6.71
BROAD-------126-------------------120
20SHUT------4.43-------------------3.98

I personally don't expect Cooper to be there at 9, but if he is I don't know how he doesn't carry a top 5 grade in what is a relatively weak class.
RE: Milton  
Milton : 3/22/2015 6:28 pm : link
In comment 12197919 stretch234 said:
Quote:
Do you think there is a reason there has been only 1 OG drafted in the top 10 in the last 15 years.
Not sure what your source is on that, because just two years ago Jonathan Cooper and Chance Warmack were drafted #7 and #10 respectively and in 2001 Leonard Davis was the 2nd pick overall.

And besides, I'm not advocating OG with the 9th pick, I'm advocating OL. I'll leave it up to the Giants scouts to project the potential of La'el Collins and Branden Scherff. If neither is BPA when the Giants are on the clock, then neither should be the pick. What I will say is that the Giants moves in free agency seem to suggest that they believe there will be an OL for them to select with the 9th pick that will be BPA.
Milton  
Bill2 : 3/22/2015 6:30 pm : link
Some things are facts:

He is short
He has small hands
He is light.
He is thin without the bone structure to add much weight
He has had several injuries
He fumbles
He goes down on contact
He drops a lot running before the ball is caught.

Those are all factual matters of record. No emotion or opinion applies.

Boylhart has seen tape and likes him.

Out of that imho...no he is not almost as good as Cooper or White but magically available at 40 or 74. I am sorry I don't think you intend to torture the data into confessing the desired outcome. Half way through round two the bottom drops out of this draft for just about all positions. Sadly.

We hope for depth after that and hopefully one starter for a year or two before upgrading some how. most likely, imho.

again, if available that's who I would take to make the most difference on the team. If half of Browns field goals in two games were TD in the green zone...we would be 8-8. If all defensive players had to wait half a step and be more spread out....we make more 3rd downs running or throwing. No guard available in 2015 makes that happen. imho.

As Yat points out this may be all academic and the two clear floor and difference making WR may be gone...so which ever rusher or OT potential is left is the best choice...imho.
RE: Milton  
Milton : 3/22/2015 6:58 pm : link
In comment 12197934 Bill2 said:
Quote:
Half way through round two the bottom drops out of this draft for just about all positions. Sadly.
According to the Seattle GM, the draft has only 16 players with first round grades, so it can be said that, sadly, the bottom drops out half way through round one. In any event, you name the position and it's a sure bet that the player the Giants can draft at #9 is going to be a better prospect than the one they can get at #40 and the one they can get at #40 is going to be better than the one they can get at #74. And don't be so fixated on Tyler Lockett. If he's not the Giants taste, maybe Chris Conley is...or Ty Montgomery is. They may not be equivalent as prospects to Cooper and White (neither of whom is likely to be available at #9, but it's possible), but they are players who could see reps in three- and four-WR sets and play special teams even if they don't break into the starting lineup. But an OL that doesn't make it into the starting lineup is just insurance against injury and sits on the bench all game if he dresses at all.

Quote:
If half of Browns field goals in two games were TD in the green zone...we would be 8-8. If all defensive players had to wait half a step and be more spread out....we make more 3rd downs running or throwing. No guard available in 2015 makes that happen. imho.
We'll see if the Giants scouts agree with you on that.

Quote:
As Yat points out this may be all academic and the two clear floor and difference making WR may be gone...so which ever rusher or OT potential is left is the best choice...imho.
Not sure why you believe there are only two special WR's in the draft and the rest are JAGs. My reading of it is that the draft is deep in WR's that can have an impact, it's just a matter of picking the right one at the right time.
Yaytqb....  
Reb8thVA : 3/22/2015 7:26 pm : link
The argument you lay out for an OL at #9 is why.I prefer that approach combined with the fact I don't believe in the organization's ability to identify OL talent in the later rounds and the fact there is a precipitous drop in talent after the second round.

Milton, keep fighting the good fight.
RE: Yaytqb....  
Coach Mason : 3/22/2015 7:31 pm : link
In comment 12198000 Reb8thVA said:
Quote:
The argument you lay out for an OL at #9 is why.I prefer that approach combined with the fact I don't believe in the organization's ability to identify OL talent in the later rounds and the fact there is a precipitous drop in talent after the second round.

Milton, keep fighting the good fight.


Do you trust them to pick one at 40 when they have picked up the likes of Chris Snee among others and there should be a strong selection of options?
RE: RE: Yaytqb....  
Reb8thVA : 3/22/2015 7:36 pm : link
In comment 12198006 Coach Mason said:
Quote:
In comment 12198000 Reb8thVA said:


Quote:


The argument you lay out for an OL at #9 is why.I prefer that approach combined with the fact I don't believe in the organization's ability to identify OL talent in the later rounds and the fact there is a precipitous drop in talent after the second round.

Milton, keep fighting the good fight.



Do you trust them to pick one at 40 when they have picked up the likes of Chris Snee among others and there should be a strong selection of options?


Let's just put it this way. I understand the argument for a WR and if they were to select Cooper I would be fine with it. Parker and white less so. However the later they wait to go OL, the less confidence I have.
Milton  
stretch234 : 3/22/2015 9:35 pm : link
I am not disagreeing about needing an OG. If I am going to get a OL at that point, I would rather overdraft a Guy who has LT capability who could play G

I phrased it wrong. Cooper was the only G picked inside the top 10. L. Davis was drafted as a LT

I just don't want to pass up the opportunity to potentially draft a top level WR, cost controlled for 5 years, if that was available
Reb, thanks for the agreement. I feel that we'd likely have to go  
yatqb : 3/22/2015 9:43 pm : link
with Cooper or White if they fell to us, but it sure makes for problems down the line in the draft...although if we don't keep Randle next year it helps us long-term.

BTW, Parker IS interesting to me. He reminds me of a slower Dez Bryant, without the route-running ability but with the physicality to get the contested balls. He's more of a long strider than I like as a WR, but he can sure go up and get them. Just not sure if he's worth the risk at 9.

Bill2's Points  
Percy : 3/23/2015 8:18 am : link
Are persuasive. One hopes the Giants' management sees it the same way. If Collins can really be seen as a future LT, he's a viable pick at 9. Otherwise not. And even if he is, but Cooper for some reason is still there at 9, taking Cooper seems better for 2015 and long-term. DE and OG? BPA in rounds 2 and 3.
I actually think people are a bit down on this draft class  
English Alaister : 3/23/2015 8:38 am : link
I see a lot to like on the OL, DL, RB and WR (not so deep) front.

I think taking a WR first and then solidifying both lines looks a sensible way to go.
I don't think he'll be the pick.  
BeerFridge : 3/23/2015 8:44 am : link
But if he is, it'll be hard to be disappointed. He really seems destined for a Snee-like career. It think we'd all be happy if we had him for the next ten years.
if true, Sy got to the heart of the thread:  
idiotsavant : 3/23/2015 8:52 am : link
''Scherff is the best G prospect
Sy'56 : 3/22/2015 4:13 pm : link : reply
Unless you consider La'el Collins a guard as well.

That said...he is NOT far above Laken Tomlinson or Tre Jackson. The latter two offer better value in round 2 than Scherff does at #9 overall.''


To me, that supports the trade down. Keep trading down until you have some sort of mix of second and third round picks.

many here use the word 'starter'

You should be able to come away with a starting quality defensive tackle, a starting quality defensive end, a guard and maybe even also a safety.

all before you reach the 4th round. this is a team approach.
and that guard would still concievably  
idiotsavant : 3/23/2015 8:56 am : link
be the best guard on our team
Coach, let's say that I don't have complete faith in that,  
yatqb : 3/23/2015 12:04 pm : link
given how many OL draftees have not panned out for us in the past.
yat  
Coach Mason : 3/23/2015 12:34 pm : link
We have generally hit on the second round OL in Beatty and Snee and arguably Richburg (who flashed last year despite playing OG vs Center).

Further the crop that will be available at 40 will very likely be a more talented selection than most years.

I don't see that as taking an unnecessary risk at all as the grade on the first round OL aren't drastically higher than some of these guys that will be there top half of round 2.
RE: really is  
Randy in CT : 3/23/2015 12:40 pm : link
In comment 12197907 area junc said:
Quote:
unbelievable how many people want to go WR round 1.
total lack of team-building vision
I think that most of the people that "want to go WR round 1" are thinking that he's the best value there and we can certainly use another weapon in an offense that looks to be putting up some serious points.

Your post infers you prefer draft by pure need. Do we really have to have that discussion?
would it be  
area junc : 3/23/2015 12:44 pm : link
"nice to have another weapon"? yes

is it a good idea to use our #9 overall on another WR? fuck no.

you disagree. fine.......more than one way to win. in a 250+ player draft u can't tell me the WR is that much better than somebody at a trench position on either side of the ball. its bullshit
At #9, I want  
JonC : 3/23/2015 12:45 pm : link
a DE, left tackle, or WR in that order. That's where the value and talent will most likely be, and note there's really only one left tackle in Peat, who may not carry the grade.

We can look at OGs at #40, value and grade will figure to be better at #40 rather than probably committing a reach for an OG or RT at #9.
You really don't have a clue  
Headhunter : 3/23/2015 12:47 pm : link
to the meaning of BPA do you? If it was an 8.3 v an 8.2, maybe you take the 8.2 based on need. If it is 8.3 v 7.8, then you need your head examined
RE: would it be  
Coach Mason : 3/23/2015 1:04 pm : link
In comment 12199086 area junc said:
Quote:
"nice to have another weapon"? yes

is it a good idea to use our #9 overall on another WR? fuck no.

you disagree. fine.......more than one way to win. in a 250+ player draft u can't tell me the WR is that much better than somebody at a trench position on either side of the ball. its bullshit


AJ, If there were edge-rushers that fit our visions for the new system that carried similar grades or near blue-chip LT versatile tackles then your argument has merit.

But if the play-maker/WR at 9 is BPA by a significant margin , you go WR plain and simple.

blah blah blah  
Giants2012 : 3/23/2015 1:07 pm : link
we get it coach, you want a #2 receiver at #9 and OL is fine. We get it.
RE: At #9, I want  
Coach Mason : 3/23/2015 1:08 pm : link
In comment 12199087 JonC said:
Quote:
a DE, left tackle, or WR in that order. That's where the value and talent will most likely be, and note there's really only one left tackle in Peat, who may not carry the grade.

We can look at OGs at #40, value and grade will figure to be better at #40 rather than probably committing a reach for an OG or RT at #9.


Yes sir. So even though WR is 3rd on the list , it may be the one with highest value and fit.
Coach, you make a good point...I guess we'll have to wait and see.  
yatqb : 3/23/2015 1:21 pm : link
On another note, you seems sold on Parker. Would you take him regardless of who else was there at 9 if the other two WRs were already selected?
Yat said this yesterday  
Coach Mason : 3/23/2015 1:34 pm : link
Love Parker and he compiled those half season video game numbers being the worst route runner of the top 3. My only concern is how much of the 'diva' gene does this kid have.

It runs rampant in the gifted wide-outs who think they are God's gift and don't work quite as hard at their craft b/c in college they are so much more talented than everyone else.

However if the Giants feel this kid will work on becoming a better route-runner, he has more upside than White and could be the best WR talent-wise this entire draft (sans DGB who I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole).

When you watch the film he pulls away from DBs a whole lot more than White does and at times just looks like he is toying with the defense. For lack of a better way to put it, White does it by 'working' harder.


Scherff vs 2nd Round Guards  
johnboyw : 3/24/2015 12:27 pm : link
I think what this is ultimately going to come down to is whether Reese & Co feel they can get a plug and play LG or RT in the 2nd or 3rd round this year. If they do and one of the WRs (Cooper, Parker) or one of the DEs (Gregory, Ray) is available at #9, Reese will go with the splash player and get his offensive lineman later (hopefully in Rd 2). If somehow both Cooper and Gregory are there at #9, that will certainly present an interesting dilemma.
That said, Scherff has been my guy since last year. He is a bigger, stronger, nastier and more athletic version of Chris Snee and that ain't bad. He would bring an attitude and personality to the offense that is currently woefully lacking. The Giants don't need a LT. Beatty had a decent year and Pugh can also play that position which, frankly, he's probably more suited for. They need a road grading OG/RT. That is Scherff.
'...committing a reach for an OG or RT at #9.'  
raever : 3/24/2015 12:40 pm : link
A prospect with elite potential at any position isn't a reach imo.

It's more of a reach/risk projecting edge rushers with a 3-4 scheme profile into our current 4-3 defense(Ray/Gregory/Dupree).
Elite potential.  
chillinman1183 : 3/24/2015 3:28 pm : link
scherff is a borderline first round talent at best,but by all meens lets pick him at 9 and forgo a player Like Parker or Cooper,both of wich would actually be difference makers. I can tell most of you develop your opinions by watching ESPN and NFL Network. If cooper is gone by 9 then Parker should be the pick. IF he's healthy for more than 6 games last year his #'s would have eclipsed coopers at the pace he was on. He would probably be the first receiver off the board. Wites 4.35 just doesn't translate to often on film. Parker is the most explosive of the 3. He also high points and attacks the ball every bit as well as White. He's dangerous with the ball in his hands. Cooper has him in the route running department but that's it. I dn't think there's a wide margin between scherff and the G that would be there at 40. Like I said,I think he's a borderline 1st rounder himself. So if I'm in the war room this year it's going to go just like last. If Cooper's gone at 9 and Parker is sitting there,then there's no discussion just like with OBJ. You make the pick and look to upgrade the Guard spot in rounds 2 or 3.
So let me get this straight  
raever : 3/24/2015 4:40 pm : link
Scherff has the best 3-cone for an offensive lineman in a decade...runs a top five 40 and jumps a top 5 vertical all at 320#. He's technically sound. Has arguably the best power base in this draft along with Leonard Williams. But you've concluded he doesn't possess elite potential? You sure know what you're talking about chillin'.
7.07 is an outstanding time  
Coach Mason : 3/24/2015 5:14 pm : link
For a LB let alone OL.

Giants do seem to value 3 cone highly since it can indicate c.o.d ability.

We curiously didn't get that last starter via FA. I don't know if they'd still take him if they think he is a pure OG but if they think he has some tackle versatility , I guess it's possible. Probably depends on who falls to 9 as well.
The best  
Amtoft : 3/24/2015 5:34 pm : link
true OG in this draft IMO is Tre Jackson. He is the best of the bunch. Collins and Scherff I see as OTs that can play OG and be very good. I don't think they will though as I think they will both end up at OT.
scherff an elite prospect. I think not!!!  
chillinman1183 : 3/24/2015 7:46 pm : link
Ya,what about the incredible bulk. He had pretty impressive combine #'s as well. Let me ask you,how did that work out for him when Reggie White was throwing him around like a rag doll. Not to mention he was a complete failure as a pro. There's been many other workout warriors to fail as well. I'm not saying he's going to be a bust,but how exactly does that make him elite?! Obviously you are saying the 40 yard dash and 3 cone means more than game film. Haha... I obviously know a hell of a lot more then you dude,and most of the other morons on here that think they are experts. Just because you memorize all a prospects workout #'s it doesn't make you an expert. Most of you on here listen to NFl network,Espn and read scouting reports then act like you know what you're talking about just because you can spit some meaningless #'s out.
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