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| So why Okafor? “He’s really good now. Young, but he has it all. One thing he might lack is lateral quickness,” said one scout. “But he’s tough, he can score inside, he can take you out a little bit. He’s a good kid, works hard. I think he’s a major star when the time comes. A year with Mike Krzyzewski helps. He’s pro ready.” For all his praise of Okafor, the scout also raved about Towns, especially his development from last year. So if the Knicks think big, and it’s not Okafor, then Kentucky’s Towns comes into play. “For me, right now it’s 1 and 1A,” said one exec, “and No. 1 is Towns. I’m not saying Towns is clear cut and I think the Knicks will have to do a lot of homework and studying. But both have great potential and high upside. Okafor is good offensively, you know he’s going to score. Towns will get better offensively but he could be really good on the defensive side of the ball. “Towns could be a Tyson Chandler-type but with more offense. He’s already shown more offense at an early stage than Tyson did,” the executive said. But as one opposing player personnel guy said, “They had Chandler and gave him away.” And that guy likes Russell for the Knicks. Even over a big? “Everybody thinks bigs but it’s a point guard-driven league, [with] the way those guys get to the foul line with the ball in their hands,” he said. “I think it’s easier to find a big to give you a defensive presence than it is to find a guard who can break people down. This is really tough. It comes down to Towns, Okafor and Russell. It all depends on what they [Knicks] want to do, what their mindset is going forward. “Towns is a great defender, great shot blocker. Has some offensive skills but he’s defensive minded. He moves his feet well, great size. Okafor is not really an athlete. He’s a basketball player. He smart as anything, has huge hands, makes good passes. Russell’s a real athletic guard.” |
That and 40 million extra... lol
I like Towns #1 overall but I'm not breaking my television if we end up with Russell or Mudiay. Maybe I'll look like a moron (especially with wild card Mudiay) but I'm not seeing a huge gap between the 4 as prospects.
If we picked 5th he'd be in the mix for me sure.
And yes, he is considerably more athletic than Russell. The idea in the link that Russell is a top athlete is just wrong. He's a very nice player, with great passing instincts, but he might get schooled on the defensive end by the really quick pg's. I have a sneaking suspicion that Mudiay ends up better, and a number of mock drafts have him ranked higher.
In terms of the guards vs. the bigs, the problem is that there is so little talent in FA at pg. If we knew we were going to get someone like Monroe, one of the guards might be preferable, but of course, the draft comes first. At this point I prefer Towns--he will develop more of an offensive game after leaving Kentucky, and on defense, there is no comparison. Of course, the argument is made that Okafor uses most of his energy on offense for Duke, but you can't teach the quickness Towns brings.
A PG at 5 would be a ridiculous reach of a pick. A big at 5 would likely be WCS or rolling the dice on Porzingis. Gun to my head I guess I'd go WCS but I wouldn't be all that happy. What PG is worthy of #5 overall?
The odds of the Knicks winning enough games to fall out of the #1 lottery spot are tiny anyway--2 1/2 games behind Minnesota, 3 behind Philly. The Knicks finally found something they are good at: tanking.
Jon,
Thanks. Just saw the size, age and numbers and wondered why he's never mentioned.
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poeltel is a stiff. He's JAG who benefits from being a legit 7 footer when most college centers at 6'9 on a good day.
Jon,
Thanks. Just saw the size, age and numbers and wondered why he's never mentioned.
It's a fair question. You have fun at Bronson last night? I thought it was a decent show but not his best. And the venue sucked.
The odds of the Knicks winning enough games to fall out of the #1 lottery spot are tiny anyway--2 1/2 games behind Minnesota, 3 behind Philly. The Knicks finally found something they are good at: tanking.
Yeah but the whole discussion is basically "who do you take 5th if that doomsday scenario happened" since most agree the top 4 is pretty set in stone.
If the Knicks draft a 5'7, 320 guy, I will definitely hurl the remote.
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With AAU more players are trying to play on the perimiter rather than play inside...it is "cooler" nowadays to play on the outside rather the boring methodical post up...
Coaches do not want to teach it, they sit back and just let the kids play and they do not learn any fundamentals..
So the kids that can play back to the basket are being weeded out and over run by the more athletic outside bigs or they are being turned into outside players because that is what every one is doing now...
So guys that would have had the ball pounded into them all day every day end up like Andre Drummond who are truly athletically dominant bigs with barely a post game.
Also, the one and done college system doesn't help big guys develop their post games.
That's one thing I like about Monroe. He's not the athlete or the defensive presence that Drummond is, but he actually has a legit post game.
Plus he can pass the ball well for a big guy.
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the topic of builds, why do you guys think we see so few talented "true bigs" nowadays? Where are the Shaq, Ewings etc going? It's not like they are playing other sports. Will we ever see another Shaq? It seems like we are more likely to see another Lebron which is crazy.
With AAU more players are trying to play on the perimiter rather than play inside...it is "cooler" nowadays to play on the outside rather the boring methodical post up...
Coaches do not want to teach it, they sit back and just let the kids play and they do not learn any fundamentals..
So the kids that can play back to the basket are being weeded out and over run by the more athletic outside bigs or they are being turned into outside players because that is what every one is doing now...
You can just say that you think black people ruined basketball. It is clearly what you're getting at.
I've seen old game tapes and the fundamentals were terrible. People were shooting from wherever and the defense was piss poor. The players were smaller and much less athletic. The game had to change when the athletes and coaching got so good.
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In comment 12202334 DanMetroMan said:
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the topic of builds, why do you guys think we see so few talented "true bigs" nowadays? Where are the Shaq, Ewings etc going? It's not like they are playing other sports. Will we ever see another Shaq? It seems like we are more likely to see another Lebron which is crazy.
With AAU more players are trying to play on the perimiter rather than play inside...it is "cooler" nowadays to play on the outside rather the boring methodical post up...
Coaches do not want to teach it, they sit back and just let the kids play and they do not learn any fundamentals..
So the kids that can play back to the basket are being weeded out and over run by the more athletic outside bigs or they are being turned into outside players because that is what every one is doing now...
You can just say that you think black people ruined basketball. It is clearly what you're getting at.
Do not put those words in my mouth....I never once said that...
What i said was the game is moving to the perimeter and the atleticism is changing in the NBA...I never once said it was ruining the game...
Then you say "So" kids that play the back to the basket are being weeded out and over run but your first points dont support that. you laid a foundation for players not wanting to play inside and coaches not giving a shit, neither of which speaks to why a player who wanted to play inside would not be able to thrive there (if anything, he'd have a competitive advantage). Finally you said that they're "being turned into outside players" but again you support is that most players WANT to be outside and the coaches at best dont care (which I reject as unsupported).
And no where in your wet hot mess of a post is an assessment of fact that the game is moving outside and athleticism is changing the NBA. Your post was an attempt to explain why people are playing the outside, NOT a mere observation that the game is moving outside.
Even Amare Stoudemire went from 0 post game to a surprisingly effective one.
I just think it's been de-emphasized around the league. Players have gotten so proficient at the 3 pt shot that it's made the mid-range shot obsolete and frowned upon.
The competition for NBA roster spots right now, drawing people from 6 continents, in unbelievable. It is much harder to be a marginal NBAer these days. Add in developments in coaching, video review, workout regimens, and nutrition, and it all leads to better play. We have not regressed to some dark ages where the peasants are wondering how people 800 years ago build the baths and aqueducts.
At the elbow what ruined offense is the rough hedge that re-routes the dribbler. I remember what Jimmy Spanarkel said a couple of years back. Had he played against the rough hedge at Duke, he would have dribbled straight into the defender and spent his college years shooting free throws. But the refs didn't call it that way until this year when a degree of sanity has been restored. However, the accommodation has still tilted to the defense . Offensive fouls on questionable moving screens are still being called far more frequently than block calls by the big on the rough hedge.
So defense today is more effective. That gives the appearance of an erosion of basketball skills. It's not.
The biggest problem on this team is DEFENSE.
To be clear, I'm not suggesting a Mutombo or Camby type "game changing" defender but he really reminds me of Rasheed Wallace in his movements. I'd be pretty stunned if he's not at least above average defensively. Offensively I'll just have to go with what others who have seen more of him feel. I haven't been overly blown away by his offensive game but in fairness to him (as others have mentioned) Kentucky doesn't exactly allow him much freedom.
I honestly don't care if we get the #1 or #2 pick because I'm perfectly fine with Okafor or Towns at this point.
Funny, one could make the same argument about knee jerk calls for people to be banned. And technically I didnt call nygiants16 a racist.
Go ahead and write Eric an email. Im pretty sure that in the 18 or 19 years I've been posting here, it will be the first complaint he's gotten about me.
Yeah, he's bad on defense. But the guy has been an offensive juggernaut since like the 3rd grade. He never had to give a shit about defense and none of his coaches pressed him for it. Put him in an NBA training facility where he can turn a lot of his baby fat into man meat and coach him up on that side of the floor and I think you have a serviceable player.
Mudiay is scary to me. I always worry about guys who there isnt enough game tape for. On the flipside, isnt Russell sort of an out of nowhere prospect? Pre-season, where was he projected to go in the draft?
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This trend on BBI of posters accusing fellow posters racist at every turn needs to stop. Nowhere in that post did nygiants16 even slightly imply anything racist. It's gotten out of hand
Funny, one could make the same argument about knee jerk calls for people to be banned. And technically I didnt call nygiants16 a racist.
Go ahead and write Eric an email. Im pretty sure that in the 18 or 19 years I've been posting here, it will be the first complaint he's gotten about me.
You most definitely did say his post was racist. Which implies that the poster is racist. Own it.
I worry that the Knicks lack the wherewithal to get him playing a defensive game. In short, I just dont think he's a great match with Carmelo because of the defense issue. Though in the short term it is less of a problem in the East.
-Deej
As for Mudiay we pretty much have to wait until the workouts.
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You most definitely did say his post was racist. Which implies that the poster is racist. Own it.
At most I implied that his post was racist, but I dont really care because I believe the post was racist. It is tough to tell because it was horrifically incoherent, but from what I could tell the poster was saying players play a certain way because it looks cool and their lazy and their coaches dont give a shit.
In particular, I think that references to a lack of fundamentals in the current NBA is a dog whistle towards racism. It may be unintentional, but white players (individually) are routinely identified as being better at "fundamentals". Kevin Love and David Lee are praised for following their shot because that is solid fundamentals. Except neither plays a lick of defense. Indeed, I think most people complaining about fundamentals have no idea what they mean by "fundamentals" and are in fact just saying that in days of yore people used to play the "right way".
The quality of NBA play right now is astounding. The defenses are absolutely suffocating. The shooters have to get their shots off much faster than they used to. The dribbling is amazing. Teams are weaving elaborate weaves and cuts. This is all fundamentals.
You're a fucking idiot.
My point about fundamentals was about players post up game, it had nothing to do with general fundamentals in players like shooting and dribbling...
My point abou tplayers like playing on the outside more is valid because well look at the NBA...players like playing on the outside and shooting 3's...look at how many 7 footers are in the NBA now that shoot on the outside and do not post up...
Never once did i say the nBA was ruined and never once did i say black players were ruining the NBA
You assumed thats what i meant and that couldnt be further from the truth
Almost any other position you could easily make up for it, but not center, unless the Knicks find a real good defensive 4 next to him it will be a huge issue.
Offensively besides his free throw shooting and possibly mid range jumper, no complaints
His pick and roll defense is a disaster, which is what he will see 95% of the time in the NBA now.
The NBA is mostly black players. So with guys like Deej around, any criticism of its current state will surely point to obvious racism. Not allowed to criticize the NBA, apparently.
My problem with Okafor is in big games they will just hack him if they cant stop him to get him to the line. Something they can't do that with Towns.
If Knicks end up picking 3 they should trade up or trade the pick imo.
My point about fundamentals was about players post up game, it had nothing to do with general fundamentals in players like shooting and dribbling...
My point abou tplayers like playing on the outside more is valid because well look at the NBA...players like playing on the outside and shooting 3's...look at how many 7 footers are in the NBA now that shoot on the outside and do not post up...
Never once did i say the nBA was ruined and never once did i say black players were ruining the NBA
You assumed thats what i meant and that couldnt be further from the truth
You wrote that "Coaches do not want to teach it, they sit back and just let the kids play and they do not learn any fundamentals." I dont know in what world "fundamentals" could be read in that context to just mean "how to post up".
"AAU basketball," Bryant said. "Horrible, terrible AAU basketball. It's stupid. It doesn't teach our kids how to play the game at all so you wind up having players that are big and they bring it up and they do all this fancy crap and they don't know how to post. They don't know the fundamentals of the game. It's stupid."
Deej. Just shut the fuck up already.
Methinks that bringing in the topic of racism when responding to ny16's initial comment is due to having a certain viewpoint in the first place...
Methinks that bringing in the topic of racism when responding to ny16's initial comment is due to having a certain viewpoint in the first place...
I do have a certain viewpoint on race in the NBA. I think a lot of criticism of the league circa the Iverson era was very racially charged. The players were deemed too thuggish and Stern required them to comply with a dress code that essentially forbade them from dressing like hip hop artists etc. Stern acknowledged the race issue he faced in the league that I think colors my aversion to comments like the fundamentals one:
I think the criticism of the 1990s and 2000s NBA continues. People in polite society dont say things like "the NBA is too black". But harping on nonsense like NBA players have no commitment to fundamentals as compared to earlier incarnations to me all comes from the same place -- a complaint that the game is now too "street" and not enough Hoosiers. I suspect many here disagree, but that's my take.
court awareness. A wonderful athlete, but that's all. Just ask Larry Brown. We have no idea what kind of court awareness Mudiay will end up having.
court awareness. A wonderful athlete, but that's all. Just ask Larry Brown. We have no idea what kind of court awareness Mudiay will end up having.
Manh,
I'm talking physical skillset/playing style. Not mentality. Marbury is an unstable human being and a selfish player. But physically he was pretty damn impressive, even to this day not many PG's can match what early career Marbury brought. If he were even a little bet less nutty he would have been a can't miss HOF.
I dont know a lot about the triangle, other than the fact that its success in the past has been tied to having possibly the two best SGs of all time. But I do get the sense that point guard in the triangle has little to do with the normal floor general role PGs play. Derek Fisher and Ron Harper were not classic PGs.
" "A lot of guys saw him at the Hoop Summit," one Western Conference executive said. "Just like us, a lot of teams saw all his tapes. He's got strength, he's got the size, can get to the basket, take a bump and finish. He has to become a better shooter, but he's a natural point guard. He's going to be an NBA caliber talent." "
Mudiay also gets high marks for continuing to work hard while he was inactive, in a country where he didn't know the language and had little incentive to remain. He didn't pout and didn't raise a fuss. And he was able to get in some competition against former NBA players like Lester Hudson and Bobby Brown. "
I think there remains a valid issue between street/school ball, but that if there are any social elements to this it is far more classist than anything racist.
I think there remains a valid issue between street/school ball, but that if there are any social elements to this it is far more classist than anything racist.
What's interesting is that Duncan has routinely been maligned for HIS "boring" style of play.
Who are the white players who are knocked for being too street, not enough school? The one guy I can think of is Jason Williams, who notably earned the moniker "White Chocolate". Its funny that Ginobli never gots criticized for his street style. A lot of guys who have an erratic style are deemed uncoachable or unable to play in a system. Manu?
Im not sure I buy the class distinction, but I havent given it a lot of thought. Kobe has a lot of street in him (especially early Kobe), and he didnt grow up on the mean streets. I'd expect that with prep schools and AAU, class is playing a lesser role with respect to player development.
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I'm not a huge AAU fan either but the young players today are infinitely smarter than the young players a decade ago. When I look at the 2000s, it bothers me how many careers went in the wrong direction because the players didn't know how to play the game.
Okafor's post up % is staggering. I dont have a hard time believing that he'll be a top 5 post up player in the NBA, maybe the best. But physically, he isnt Shaq. I dont think he'll get close to 50% post up. Lets say he's closer to Jefferson at 1/3. Then what? He doesnt seem to have the jumper to step out and keep them honest, or to execute the pick and pop.
Can Okafor be a dominant player as a pure post up guy?
Bigs in college have such a huge advantage. If you're a 6'11-7'0 in college, you're playing on Rookie difficulty.
52% post up rate makes perfect sense when you're typically playing 6'8-6'9 centers at best. I'd run my offense thru the big too.
These guys could lose a few games to a college team in a best of 7. It's the worst Knicks team I've ever seen.
Only one way to go folks. Up!
I hope the moronic Knicks marketing people use that as their 2016 slogan.
The main problem is that it looks awful on a resume.
Btw, Amundson had himself quite a game. -30 +/- in 15 minutes. That isn't easy, unless you are shooting at the wrong basket.
So if Ledo throws an alley-oop to Amundson, who deflects the ball into the wrong basket, does Ledo get a turnover? I think so, because Amundson never had possession.
KAT is so complete. Checks a lot of boxes. I think WCS might make him look a little better than he is individually imo. Having a guy like WCS on D helped Towns so much. Imagine Okafor with WCS, that frontcourt would dominate too.
Russells going to be good. Great hands, makes nice passes. Smooth shooter. Big fan of his offensive game.
Mudiay is someone I'd take 4th because I haven't seen him enough. Might move him up later. All I know is that he's a sick athlete for a PG.
Lots of NBA people came to see Mario Hezonja today, but after his interview about the Draft, Barcelona decided to keep him out of the roster
He's already doing interviews saying he should be the #1 pick and that he's able to do all of Zach Lavine's dunks with no problem. He's a really good athlete with a lot of skill. The weird thing is with the little I've seen of him, I don't see a Euro style all that much. He plays so much like an NBA player it's not even funny. I think he's going to excel here if he doesn't get sent to the dog house with his attitude.
But in all other aspects of the game I just see things develop and move faster than JO is reacting. It doesnt look like he's bad defensively because he doesnt understand stuff or doesnt care -- the problem appears to be much more fundamental. I dont know if it is called "reaction time" or "quick twitch" or what. But the only times he looks good to me are on one-on-one post ups, where he as the offensive player gets to dictate when the war starts.
But in all other aspects of the game I just see things develop and move faster than JO is reacting. It doesnt look like he's bad defensively because he doesnt understand stuff or doesnt care -- the problem appears to be much more fundamental. I dont know if it is called "reaction time" or "quick twitch" or what. But the only times he looks good to me are on one-on-one post ups, where he as the offensive player gets to dictate when the war starts.
But isn't that true of most "non-plus" athlete bigs? I mean I can't claim I'm watching Al Jefferson tape all day or even Z-Bo but isn't that a similar concern?
But isn't that true of most "non-plus" athlete bigs? I mean I can't claim I'm watching Al Jefferson tape all day or even Z-Bo but isn't that a similar concern?
Maybe I did a bad job explaining my observation. See video below starting at 4:34 (vs. Wisc) and especially the two plays starting at 5:15. JO looks like a spectator -- a total potted plant out there. Al Jeff and ZBo may not move laterally like Anthony Davis, but I dont picture them just standing there watching plays blow by them.
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But isn't that true of most "non-plus" athlete bigs? I mean I can't claim I'm watching Al Jefferson tape all day or even Z-Bo but isn't that a similar concern?
Maybe I did a bad job explaining my observation. See video below starting at 4:34 (vs. Wisc) and especially the two plays starting at 5:15. JO looks like a spectator -- a total potted plant out there. Al Jeff and ZBo may not move laterally like Anthony Davis, but I dont picture them just standing there watching plays blow by them. Link - ( New Window )
Fair enough but then again I can't claim I was following them as defensive players at 18-19 but I honestly do think Okafor can make some legit defensive/quickness gains with professional training/gym. He doesn';t look fat but he looks soft.
And JFC, how is ZBo only 33?
Okafor: 8.7 rebounds in 30.3 mins
Anthony Davis: 10.4 rebounds in 32 mins
Demarcus Cousins: 9.8 rebounds in 23.5 mins
Derrick Favors: 8.4 rebounds in 27.5 mins
Andre Drummond: 7.6 rebounds in 28.4 mins
Nerlens Noel: 9.5 rebounds in 31.9 mins
Blake Griffen: 14.4 rebounds in 33.3 mins (sophomore)
Greg Monroe: 9.6 rebounds in 34.2 mins (sophomore)
And what happens to 2nd round order (I assume we dont have a pick).
Good question, I have no clue.
Good. I think.
I hope so. But I'm nervous about how we have a bunch of young guys with something to prove in this league (as opposed to vets just going through the motions). The good news is that most of them suck.