NFT: Knicks chat: Scouts on JO/KAT/DR

you are looking for defense then Towns/Mudiay offer the most. Towns "now" defense is excellent and Mudiay potentially could be a difference making perimeter defender

When it comes to the NBA level. You have the fact that his arms are like vines and that he's a willing defender to bank on the fact that he will be an excellent defender. But as of today, he lacks fundamentals and just runs to people with his arms straight in the air or he just hacks the shit out of them. Which is why he's so foul prone.

I think white guys are ruining the sport. But then again I only watch Knicks hoops so I could be jaded...

In comment 12202721 AnotherGiantsFan said:

Quote:

When it comes to the NBA level. You have the fact that his arms are like vines and that he's a willing defender to bank on the fact that he will be an excellent defender. But as of today, he lacks fundamentals and just runs to people with his arms straight in the air or he just hacks the shit out of them. Which is why he's so foul prone.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting a Mutombo or Camby type "game changing" defender but he really reminds me of Rasheed Wallace in his movements. I'd be pretty stunned if he's not at least above average defensively. Offensively I'll just have to go with what others who have seen more of him feel. I haven't been overly blown away by his offensive game but in fairness to him (as others have mentioned) Kentucky doesn't exactly allow him much freedom.

I just don't think he's as NBA ready defensively as others suggest.

I honestly don't care if we get the #1 or #2 pick because I'm perfectly fine with Okafor or Towns at this point.

In comment 12202650 BigBlueShock said:

Quote:

This trend on BBI of posters accusing fellow posters racist at every turn needs to stop. Nowhere in that post did nygiants16 even slightly imply anything racist. It's gotten out of hand

Funny, one could make the same argument about knee jerk calls for people to be banned. And technically I didnt call nygiants16 a racist.

Go ahead and write Eric an email. Im pretty sure that in the 18 or 19 years I've been posting here, it will be the first complaint he's gotten about me.

different scouts have different opinions but Aldridge's "scouts" sure seemed to feel Mudiay is the CLEAR #3 guy over Russell while this piece makes Mudiay an afterthought.

grown to prefer Towns because I've seen what a poor defensive 4 can cause BUT I think Okafor is suddenly being underrated by Knicks fans (at least on BBI).

I'd rather have Mudiay than Russell and I've said that for a while now. I really like D'Lo, but you just don't see too many average athlete stars at the PG/SG position. D'Lo is the safer pick and can easily be the better player, but I'd rather take the risk and go for gold. Mudiay has a higher ceiling.

His post game is lightyears ahead of bigs at the NBA level already. He can work on his free throw shooting.

Yeah, he's bad on defense. But the guy has been an offensive juggernaut since like the 3rd grade. He never had to give a shit about defense and none of his coaches pressed him for it. Put him in an NBA training facility where he can turn a lot of his baby fat into man meat and coach him up on that side of the floor and I think you have a serviceable player.

Okafor is def being underrated here. He is an exceptional big who should be strong offensively from day one. I also think that with the right training his body should improve a lot and hopefully that will help some with his D. If we get him I will not be disappointed at all. Although i will hope that we work to pair him up with a strong defensive big and not just go for another big name who might not be a good fit next to him.

In comment 12202780 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

different scouts have different opinions but Aldridge's "scouts" sure seemed to feel Mudiay is the CLEAR #3 guy over Russell while this piece makes Mudiay an afterthought.

Mudiay is scary to me. I always worry about guys who there isnt enough game tape for. On the flipside, isnt Russell sort of an out of nowhere prospect? Pre-season, where was he projected to go in the draft?

.

In comment 12202777 Deej said:

Quote:

In comment 12202650 BigBlueShock said: Quote: This trend on BBI of posters accusing fellow posters racist at every turn needs to stop. Nowhere in that post did nygiants16 even slightly imply anything racist. It's gotten out of hand Funny, one could make the same argument about knee jerk calls for people to be banned. And technically I didnt call nygiants16 a racist. Go ahead and write Eric an email. Im pretty sure that in the 18 or 19 years I've been posting here, it will be the first complaint he's gotten about me.

You most definitely did say his post was racist. Which implies that the poster is racist. Own it.

In comment 12202813 AnotherGiantsFan said:

Quote:

His post game is lightyears ahead of bigs at the NBA level already. He can work on his free throw shooting.

I worry that the Knicks lack the wherewithal to get him playing a defensive game. In short, I just dont think he's a great match with Carmelo because of the defense issue. Though in the short term it is less of a problem in the East.

Because he's black

-Deej

"blacks are ruining the sport" isn't racist....

was a top 15 recruit, but was not expected to be this good this quickly.

As for Mudiay we pretty much have to wait until the workouts.

33 pts, 17 rb, 4 blocks last night. 6th game this season of 30-15, most in NBA and he's 24.
He's what you hope Towns becomes. - ( New Window )

In comment 12202835 djm said:

Quote:

You most definitely did say his post was racist. Which implies that the poster is racist. Own it.

At most I implied that his post was racist, but I dont really care because I believe the post was racist. It is tough to tell because it was horrifically incoherent, but from what I could tell the poster was saying players play a certain way because it looks cool and their lazy and their coaches dont give a shit.

In particular, I think that references to a lack of fundamentals in the current NBA is a dog whistle towards racism. It may be unintentional, but white players (individually) are routinely identified as being better at "fundamentals". Kevin Love and David Lee are praised for following their shot because that is solid fundamentals. Except neither plays a lick of defense. Indeed, I think most people complaining about fundamentals have no idea what they mean by "fundamentals" and are in fact just saying that in days of yore people used to play the "right way".

The quality of NBA play right now is astounding. The defenses are absolutely suffocating. The shooters have to get their shots off much faster than they used to. The dribbling is amazing. Teams are weaving elaborate weaves and cuts. This is all fundamentals.

i dont hear people praising white players as all being fundamental. If you watch any basketball you know that there are tons of players of all race that have great fundamentals just like their are tons of players of all race that have horrible fundamentals.

are all guilty of this but I suspect a seismic "shift" on Okafor if the ping pong balls have us picking 2nd and Okafor being the guy we land.

Who are, as you may or may not know, black. NYG16 gave his opinion as to why there aren't bigs like those black players anymore.

You're a fucking idiot.

Let's get that out of the way..

My point about fundamentals was about players post up game, it had nothing to do with general fundamentals in players like shooting and dribbling...

My point abou tplayers like playing on the outside more is valid because well look at the NBA...players like playing on the outside and shooting 3's...look at how many 7 footers are in the NBA now that shoot on the outside and do not post up...

Never once did i say the nBA was ruined and never once did i say black players were ruining the NBA

You assumed thats what i meant and that couldnt be further from the truth

wouldnt be disappointed with Okafor. He has pretty much lived up to all the hype and has just been picked apart cause that is what happens to the hyped up guys. Is his D a legit concern, sure, but if nothing else his O will make up for a lot of his D. I also think a guy of his size can easily end up at least an average defender. As i said earlier the key would be building correctly around him and Melo for the time being. You would want a very good defensive big and at least one plus defender guard. between Melo and Okafor you wouldnt need a ton more offense.

his one on one D is not terrible, it is help defense that needs a lot of work...he is slow laterally

is a tough position to make up for lack of D, no matter how good you are offensively.

Almost any other position you could easily make up for it, but not center, unless the Knicks find a real good defensive 4 next to him it will be a huge issue.

Offensively besides his free throw shooting and possibly mid range jumper, no complaints

In comment 12202980 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

his one on one D is not terrible, it is help defense that needs a lot of work...he is slow laterally

His pick and roll defense is a disaster, which is what he will see 95% of the time in the NBA now.

Even after his denial. Classic.

The NBA is mostly black players. So with guys like Deej around, any criticism of its current state will surely point to obvious racism. Not allowed to criticize the NBA, apparently.

he reminds me of Melo if Melo was a Center. He's a natural scorer. I just have Towns rated a couple points higher because he does everything. Even read he can hit the 3 but is not asked to at Kentucky.

My problem with Okafor is in big games they will just hack him if they cant stop him to get him to the line. Something they can't do that with Towns.

If Knicks end up picking 3 they should trade up or trade the pick imo.

In comment 12202973 nygiants16 said:

Quote:

Let's get that out of the way.. My point about fundamentals was about players post up game, it had nothing to do with general fundamentals in players like shooting and dribbling... My point abou tplayers like playing on the outside more is valid because well look at the NBA...players like playing on the outside and shooting 3's...look at how many 7 footers are in the NBA now that shoot on the outside and do not post up... Never once did i say the nBA was ruined and never once did i say black players were ruining the NBA You assumed thats what i meant and that couldnt be further from the truth

You wrote that "Coaches do not want to teach it, they sit back and just let the kids play and they do not learn any fundamentals." I dont know in what world "fundamentals" could be read in that context to just mean "how to post up".

Quote:

"I just think European players are just way more skillful," Bryant said Friday night after the Los Angeles Lakers' 109-106 loss to the Memphis Grizzlies. "They are just taught the game the right way at an early age. ... They're more skillful. It's something we really have to fix. We really have to address that. We have to teach our kids to play the right way." "AAU basketball," Bryant said. "Horrible, terrible AAU basketball. It's stupid. It doesn't teach our kids how to play the game at all so you wind up having players that are big and they bring it up and they do all this fancy crap and they don't know how to post. They don't know the fundamentals of the game. It's stupid."

Deej. Just shut the fuck up already.

that I've now underrated him. A 20-point per game scorer in the post is a valuable asset for any team. I just fear fourth quarters with him. Poor defense, and he's missed every key free throw I've seen him take (granted I don't watch a ton of Duke games). When the dust settles, I hope Towns is a Knick. He's a great puzzle piece who can be moved around depending on what FAs we can attract.

I would say that, actually, Deej's 1:47 post could be construed as racist without having to make any absurd assumptions, whereas ny16's is just speaking about fundamentals and young player development.

Methinks that bringing in the topic of racism when responding to ny16's initial comment is due to having a certain viewpoint in the first place...

In comment 12203148 Aspano! said:

Quote:

I would say that, actually, Deej's 1:47 post could be construed as racist without having to make any absurd assumptions, whereas ny16's is just speaking about fundamentals and young player development. Methinks that bringing in the topic of racism when responding to ny16's initial comment is due to having a certain viewpoint in the first place...

I do have a certain viewpoint on race in the NBA. I think a lot of criticism of the league circa the Iverson era was very racially charged. The players were deemed too thuggish and Stern required them to comply with a dress code that essentially forbade them from dressing like hip hop artists etc. Stern acknowledged the race issue he faced in the league that I think colors my aversion to comments like the fundamentals one:

Quote:

“I don’t know if or where it ended, but of course it [race] is an important part of our history. I remember being called by an agent for an advertiser who said he didn’t want to advertise with us anymore because we were getting “too black.” An important columnist at the time, who I won’t name, said, “there’s no way America will accept a majority black league.”

I think the criticism of the 1990s and 2000s NBA continues. People in polite society dont say things like "the NBA is too black". But harping on nonsense like NBA players have no commitment to fundamentals as compared to earlier incarnations to me all comes from the same place -- a complaint that the game is now too "street" and not enough Hoosiers. I suspect many here disagree, but that's my take.

that I tie to racism. 'Lazy' being one of them.

still stick to my rough comparisons of Mudiay being Marbury-esque (FULLY admit I've barely seen him), Okafor Al Jefferson esque and Towns being "sort of" Rasheed Wallacey.

but articulate, do they cancel each other out?

trying to think of recent Knicks who come off as intelligent but were lazy on the court. Nobody really comes to mind.

Since early in his career it was well know (except to the Knicks) that Marbury was a shoot-first pg with extremely weak
court awareness. A wonderful athlete, but that's all. Just ask Larry Brown. We have no idea what kind of court awareness Mudiay will end up having.

In comment 12203317 manh george said:

Quote:

Since early in his career it was well know (except to the Knicks) that Marbury was a shoot-first pg with extremely weak court awareness. A wonderful athlete, but that's all. Just ask Larry Brown. We have no idea what kind of court awareness Mudiay will end up having.

Manh,
I'm talking physical skillset/playing style. Not mentality. Marbury is an unstable human being and a selfish player. But physically he was pretty damn impressive, even to this day not many PG's can match what early career Marbury brought. If he were even a little bet less nutty he would have been a can't miss HOF.

the player is also underrated at this point. A little of this and a little of that and a guy seen as a loser wins one title and he's no longer viewed that way. Marbury was a 19 year old rookie. Fantastic rookie season, first 9 seasons in the NBA 21 and 8, 44% from the field. If Guggliota doesn't get hurt maybe the Wolves win a title.

They need a guard that can distribute. The best in the biz is a hot tempered nut. Not sure we can find one.

In comment 12203329 #10* said:

Quote:

They need a guard that can distribute. The best in the biz is a hot tempered nut. Not sure we can find one.

I dont know a lot about the triangle, other than the fact that its success in the past has been tied to having possibly the two best SGs of all time. But I do get the sense that point guard in the triangle has little to do with the normal floor general role PGs play. Derek Fisher and Ron Harper were not classic PGs.

Mudiay can develop his outside shot he likely has the most realistic "superstar" upside of any of the 4 given the makeup of the league and physical gifts. Towns and Okafor probably aren't "top 3 at their position" players at any point. Mudiay based on everything I've seen/read COULD be that kind of talent.... major gamble though.

be fair to the kid, he averaged 17 and 6 in China and then got hurt, came back and played well. It's not like he has a rep for being selfish.

" "A lot of guys saw him at the Hoop Summit," one Western Conference executive said. "Just like us, a lot of teams saw all his tapes. He's got strength, he's got the size, can get to the basket, take a bump and finish. He has to become a better shooter, but he's a natural point guard. He's going to be an NBA caliber talent." "

" Mudiay is "a bully guard," the executive said. "He has a monster personality to attack, and he will attack. He doesn't finish okay. But he has a chance to be good with his size and frame. He's got a lot of positive upsides. Maturity will help him."

Mudiay also gets high marks for continuing to work hard while he was inactive, in a country where he didn't know the language and had little incentive to remain. He didn't pout and didn't raise a fuss. And he was able to get in some competition against former NBA players like Lester Hudson and Bobby Brown. "

IRT basketball, the first and foremost image that comes to mind is Tim Duncan, of course.

I think there remains a valid issue between street/school ball, but that if there are any social elements to this it is far more classist than anything racist.

In comment 12203392 wigs in nyc said:

Quote:

IRT basketball, the first and foremost image that comes to mind is Tim Duncan, of course. I think there remains a valid issue between street/school ball, but that if there are any social elements to this it is far more classist than anything racist.

What's interesting is that Duncan has routinely been maligned for HIS "boring" style of play.

.