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| A senior military official involved in the investigation described “very smooth, very cool” conversation between the pilots during the early part of the flight from Barcelona to Düsseldorf. Then the audio indicated that one of the pilots left the cockpit and could not re-enter. “The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door and there is no answer,” the investigator said. “And then he hits the door stronger and no answer. There is never an answer.” He said, “You can hear he is trying to smash the door down.” |
Dusseldorf University Hospital confirmed Lubitz was a patient there and his last visit was two weeks before the crash. They denied that the treatment was related to depression, but they have handed over all of his medical records to German investigators.
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so, it's not like the airline or governing agency did not know about this, as NY Times implies 'hid evidence' re: the doctors letter.
it is obviously that the system itself did not work at all visa vis assessing the mental health of an airline pilot.
the question is why.
The party responsible is decreased.
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is going to be astronomical...
The party responsible is decreased.
deceased
so, it's not like the airline or governing agency did not know about this, as NY Times implies 'hid evidence' re: the doctors letter.
it is obviously that the system itself did not work at all visa vis assessing the mental health of an airline pilot.
the question is why.
Good question. Why don't the Drs. report directly to Lufthansa? Hippa(does europe have hippa)? Sounds like after the physical the patient must present the FFD of NFFD slip to the airline.
[Previous story, posted at 2:58 p.m. ET]
Germanwings co-pilot Andreas Lubitz was hiding an illness from his employers and had been declared "unfit to work" by a doctor, according to German authorities investigating what could have prompted the seemingly competent and stable pilot to steer his jetliner into a French mountain.
Investigators found a letter saying that Lubitz, 27, wasn't fit to do his job in the waste bin of his Dusseldorf, Germany, apartment, city prosecutor Christoph Kumpa said Friday. The note, Kumpa said, had been "slashed."
ust what was ailing Lubitz hasn't been revealed. A Dusseldorf clinic said he'd gone there twice, most recently two weeks ago, "concerning a diagnosis." But the University Clinic said it had not treated Lubitz for depression, as some media reports have indicated.
German investigators said they still have interviews and other work to do before they'll be able to reveal just what they found in the records in Lubitz's apartment in a quiet, suburban neighborhood.
They found no goodbye note or confession, authorities said.
But the fact that investigators found "ripped, recent medical leave notes, including for the day of the offense, leads to the preliminary conclusion that the deceased kept his illness secret from his employer and his professional environment," prosecutors said.
Airline staff are encouraged to report strange behaviour on the part of their colleagues, but a former pilot told the BBC that peer pressure could act as a brake on this process. "All the safety nets we are all so proud of here have not worked in this case," Carsten Spohr, Lufthansa's chief, admitted on Thursday.
But Mr Spohr also said: "No matter your safety regulations, no matter how high you set the bar, and we have incredibly high standards, there is no way to rule out such an event. This is an awful one-off event."
Pilot suicides are incredibly rare. A 2014 study by the Federal Aviation Authority identified eight such instances in the US between 2003 and 2012, accounting for 0.29% of all fatal aviation aircraft accidents. All the pilots involved had been medically screened and none had demonstrated mental disorder, depression or suicidal thoughts.
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which it is.
However:
1. If the understanding (of the place that depression can have visa-vis more serious or dangerous mental illness) is incorrect, then even the patient is not getting the help he needs to become healthy.
2. there are also some public institutions that interface with mental health and it's understanding. These have responsibilities that go far beyond the private (patient/doctor) relationship:
Institutions such as Air Control in this case, courts of all types, law enforcement, and so forth.
If these institutions are being fed, (or simply by dint of culture, operating on) any false assumptions or backwards understandings, even in what seem like details, in the current DSM or simply in the culture of the mental health industry, then those institutions will be less able to do the job of protecting the people, as they in turn, will be blinded when taking decisions.
Snippet from the BBc ...
The fact that Lubitz appears to have been signed off as sick raises the question of whether there was - or should have been - contact between his doctors and the airline. Medical practitioners take an oath to maintain patient confidentiality, but some US states have expanded doctors' duty of care to the community at large. This allows them to warn third parties if they think it is necessary.
They also indicate he has a history related to whatever this treatment is.
If I were a wagering man, I'd say she dumped him and he mentally tried to stay afloat but eventually fell apart, and chose to pull the plug.
Lubitz had been excused from work by his treating neuropsychologist for a period that included the day of the crash [...]
BERLIN—Andreas Lubitz, the Germanwings co-pilot who crashed an airliner into a French mountainside, was being treated for depression, a fact he concealed from his employer, according to a person familiar with the investigation.
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Internal documents quoted by Bild and German broadcaster ARD say a note on Mr Lubitz's aviation authority file recommended regular psychological assessment. ''
The Germanwings tragedy highlights a broader industry dilemma: reliance on pilots themselves to disclose serious physical or psychological ailments to their employer—and what can happen when secrecy urges or privacy considerations trump full disclosure, safety and medial experts say.
Despite mandatory, regular medical exams—supplemented by company-specific safeguards intended to periodically check on aviators’ skills and psychological state—airlines ultimately depend on employees to honestly assess and report when they shouldn’t be flying.
In return, Germanwings, a unit of Deutsche Lufthansa AG, and many other airlines around the globe promise to avoid punishing pilots who comply with that guiding principle.
While Mr. Lubitz had sought to conceal his depression, there was no evidence that the fear of losing his medical classification as being fit to fly—due for renewal in July—triggered his actions, though “this would be a plausible explanation,” the person said.
This person said there was no evidence that Mr. Lubitz was under mind-altering medication that could have clouded his judgment in the cockpit.
“When someone makes the same decision five or six times all leading toward one specific end you have to assume they are acting intentionally,” the person said, alluding to Mr. Lubitz’s lack of reaction when urged by the pilot to open the locked cockpit door.
A spokesman for Lufthansa said Friday that: “All we know was that he had a clean background.” He said earlier that Lufthansa would now consider whether it needs to change its screening procedures.
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Internal documents quoted by Bild and German broadcaster ARD say a note on Mr Lubitz's aviation authority file recommended regular psychological assessment. ''
Wow ... cue the lawsuits.
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''When Mr Lubitz finished training in 2009, he was diagnosed with a serious depressive episode and went on to receive treatment for a year and a half, the German news site Bild reports.
Internal documents quoted by Bild and German broadcaster ARD say a note on Mr Lubitz's aviation authority file recommended regular psychological assessment. ''
Wow ... cue the lawsuits.
Who can they sue - the German Gov't for issuing the license? His estate?
Not sure if you understood me - I agree with everything you revealed/said.
After this - privacy rights be damned (and I mean that). If you want to be a pilot on a major commercial airlines (where every flight one is responsible for 100+ lives) - every single medical/psychological should be directly submitted to the airlines. PERIOD.
Now ... if you are delivering supplies to remote parts of Alaska - smoke all the Pot you want, drink all the alcohol you want. take all the anti-depressants you want .... and THEN GO DRIVE INTO A SIDE OF THE MOUNTAIN (by yourself).
say what you want about weather or not we have a meritocracy here, in the USA, personally I think it is a mixed bag.
but, when it comes to piloting, captaining vessels,and the like, we dont fuck around as much as say, Korea (see news last year) and, apparently, Germany, Italy (news the year before)
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Not sure if you understood me - I agree with everything you revealed/said.
After this - privacy rights be damned (and I mean that). If you want to be a pilot on a major commercial airlines (where every flight one is responsible for 100+ lives) - every single medical/psychological should be directly submitted to the airlines. PERIOD.
Now ... if you are delivering supplies to remote parts of Alaska - smoke all the Pot you want, drink all the alcohol you want. take all the anti-depressants you want .... and THEN GO DRIVE INTO A SIDE OF THE MOUNTAIN (by yourself).
Smoking pot, booze, prescribed meds. Odd grouping.
Why would he go for treatment if it'd be reported? Just skip it altogether.
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'I'm planning a heinous act that will be remembered forever': Killer pilot's ex-girlfriend says he shared chilling prophecy before Alps crash and woke up from nightmares shouting 'we're going down'
Andreas Lubitz told former girlfriend he was planning an act so horrifying his name would be remembered forever
He was a master of hiding his darkest thoughts and frightened his former lover so much she decided to leave him
Startling revelations add weight to claims the pilot concealed medical condition that should have stopped him flying
Comes after it emerged Lubitz should have been off sick on day he deliberately crashed plane into mountainside
Torn-up sick notes have been found in 27-year-old's flat which showed he had hidden extent of illness from airline
Killer pilot Andreas Lubitz told his ex-girlfriend he was planning an act so heinous his name would be remembered for ever, it was sensationally claimed last night.
Lubitz was a tormented, erratic man who was a master of hiding his darkest thoughts and would wake up from nightmares screaming ‘we’re going down’, his former partner said.
She revealed to a German newspaper how Lubitz ominously told her last year: ‘One day I will do something that will change the whole system, and then all will know my name and remember it.’
When she heard about the crash of Germanwings Flight 4U9525 on Tuesday, she remembered Lubitz’s menacing prophecy. ‘I never knew what he meant, but now it makes sense,’ she told Bild.
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They also indicate he has a history related to whatever this treatment is.
If I were a wagering man, I'd say she dumped him and he mentally tried to stay afloat but eventually fell apart, and chose to pull the plug.
This was my thought when they first declared it suicide/murder. Outside of terrorism the only time I've seen people at their absolute most distraught is after a break up OR drug withdraw.
A member of the Montabaur flight school where Andreas Lubitz took lessons confirmed to BBC News the co-pilot had flown a glider over the region.
Mr Lubitz was on holiday at the time, several years ago, Dieter Wagner said.
A French newspaper reports that the co-pilot holidayed at a local flying club with his parents from the age of nine.
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is going to be astronomical...
The party responsible is decreased.
Um, have you considered the people suing the airline for employing someone who may not have been fit for flying duty?
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In comment 12207227 idiotsavant said:
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''When Mr Lubitz finished training in 2009, he was diagnosed with a serious depressive episode and went on to receive treatment for a year and a half, the German news site Bild reports.
Internal documents quoted by Bild and German broadcaster ARD say a note on Mr Lubitz's aviation authority file recommended regular psychological assessment. ''
Wow ... cue the lawsuits.
Who can they sue - the German Gov't for issuing the license? His estate?
The freaking airiilne!
The Germanwings co-pilot thought to have deliberately crashed his Airbus in the French Alps, killing 150 people, predicted "one day everyone will know my name", his ex-girlfriend says.
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Not sure if you understood me - I agree with everything you revealed/said.
After this - privacy rights be damned (and I mean that). If you want to be a pilot on a major commercial airlines (where every flight one is responsible for 100+ lives) - every single medical/psychological should be directly submitted to the airlines. PERIOD.
Let me try and inform you a little, beyond what you read in the Mirror, CNN, Fox, etc. Every year (6 months if over 40) pilots have to go to an FAA designated Aviation Medical Examiner (AME) for a physical. There are 3 classes - I, II, and III. Airline Pilots hold Class I medical certificates - the most stringent.
Before each exam, we fill out an extensive form. Among other things, we indicate what we've been previously diagnosed with, as well as listing all medications taken and we have to list every visit to a medical professional in the past 3 years. Additionally, we have to disclose serious driving infractions and other legal trouble (drugs, DUI, etc). We then self-certify that our statements are TRUE. False statements can land a pilot in hot water and may result in certificate action by the FAA or worse. The form is checked against the NDR and other databases such as the VA to ensure accuracy. There have been pilots in the past who have gotten in trouble for not disclosing that they were receiving disability benefits, or had gotten a DUI, etc.
There is also a component of a psychological examination, where the AME is assessing the mental condition of the airman through conversation and some questions.
This is a terrible tragedy, orchestrated by what seems to be a very troubled and deranged person. The media has done nothing but fear monger into the public that pilots shouldn't be trusted and should be viewed as suspicious. There was even a CNN article about how should we protect ourselves against pilots...
Every aviator I know and work with, including myself, values nothing more than the people and equipment we've been entrusted with. I take tremendous pride in ensuring that not only am I mentally and physically fit to operate each flight, but to ensure that I am technically proficient. Perhaps more selfishly, I personally would like to get home after each trip to hug my wife and son. When I was a new pilot, one of my first Captains told me "Take care of your own ass, and everyone else's will follow!"
We devote our lives to this profession, having spent thousands of dollars to become certified, spending many nights away from home, and putting our careers on the line several times a year through medical and proficiency checking. We don't shy away from the responsibility. It is very frustrating when I read comments like "These planes fly themselves" or "we should go to remote controlled airliners." Aviation is a great example of how humans can work together to make a system (nearly) flawless. The safety record speaks for itself.
Keep in mind, there is risk in everything we do as humans. We've done an amazing job of mitigating risk in the airline industry and developing technologies to make flying safe, dependable, and even reliable. We're a victim of our own success in that we take this form of transportation for granted, thanks in no small part to the uninformed talking heads of the media, and those who bash the profession for reasons unknown.
If you are the slightest bit apprehensive, I suggest next time you fly, ask to stop up in the cockpit and see what's going on. If I'm up there, I'll be glad to do my part to de-mystify it for you and show you some of the tools we have at our disposal to make sure you get where you're going safely, comfortably, and maybe even on time.
it sounds nice, but, de-facto, the German system clearly did NOT work, so.
if he was psychotic (obviously) and really needed a strong anti-psychotic medication, in a large dose
but was only on anti-depressants, this would explain it.
currently, the emphasis in the DSM might be more on 'mood' and 'getting the individual up and running'
whereas, with the strong anti-psychotic, the individual might stay in bad all day, that actually being the most rational and appropriate response to his previously ill-based life. it IS sad to be crazy...so...
if the current status of the DSM makes 'depression' (which, in the mind of some psychotics, is sometimes, what they call normal life, i.e. the absence of grandiosity or mania) the big target, as opposed to psychosis, things like this are more likely to happen from time to time.
thank god. someone is using some common sense.
see; italy/korea and so forth.
however, the problem with the DSM and societal blindness may be hurting us in other areas. at one point we had a thread about a pathological narcisist who shot up a bunch of people in california, at (a mall or street corner) , many other incidences, many similar discussions.
A source in the police investigation team told the newspaper: 'This is clear from personal notes stored and collected by the pilot.'
'Severe burnout syndrome' is a state of emotional, mental and physical ‎exhaustion and is often linked to those in jobs with high stress levels.
It's symptoms include alienation and negativity towards their work environment and colleagues and it is also known to cause suicidal tendencies and anger issues.
The startling revelation adds weight to claims the pilot concealed a medical condition that should have stopped him flying.
His former lover Maria, who claimed to have dated Lubitz for five months after the pair met while flying across Europe together, said he 'never really' spoke of illness but she was aware he was receiving psychiatric treatment.
She said they spent 'several nights' in hotels together and described him as a 'nice and open-minded' man.
However, she claimed there was a difference between his professional and his private ego, with him being 'soft' and needing love when the couple were alone but becoming 'someone else' when they talked about work.
She told Bild: 'We spoke a lot about work and then he became another person. He became agitated about the circumstances in which he had to work, too little money, anxiety about his contract and too much pressure.'
His personal problems and erratic behaviour became so severe that the flight attendant decided to call the relationship off after fearing his increasingly volatile temper.
'During conversations he'd suddenly throw a tantrum and scream at me,' she said. 'I was afraid. He even once locked me in the bathroom for a long time.'
Despite parting from Lubitz, Maria said previous conversations with him suddenly 'made sense' when she heard about the crash.
She said: ‘When I heard about the crash, there was just a tape playing in my head of what he said, “One day I will do something that will change the system and everyone will then know my name and remember me”.
‘I did not know what he meant by that at the time, but now it’s clear.’
She added: 'The torn up sick notes make sense now to me and were a clear sign that he did not want to admit that his big dream of flying as a captain was over.'
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Feel free to complain for all of us.
Here's a look on why regional pay is so low: Basically you have several regional airlines competing for a certain amount of flying put out by major carrier partners. Usually these contracts are signed for x number of aircraft for x number of years. Regionals know that guys who are flight instructing, or flying freight want to move to the airlines to start building jet time and eventually upgrade to Captain so they can move on to the major airlines. It costs a lot to train the pilots, and since year 1 is a pilot's probationary year, pay is often low. (Year 1 pay is comparatively lower than year 2 and on at every airline across the board.)
The problem with the regionals, is that the bargaining power of the pilots is limited. For example, Airline A has a contract to fly for Delta. Towards the end of that contract, Delta sends out an RFP for other airlines. Airline B pays its employees substantially less and can do the job for cheaper. Airline A management threatens its pilots saying unless we cut our costs airline B will get the flying and you'll all be out of the job and will have to start over. (Or they say, if you take pay cuts, we'll get more flying allocated to us)
So fearful of starting over, Airline A accepts concessions to keep their jobs (or acquire new flying). Wash rinse repeat.
In the airline pilot circles this is known as the "Race to the Bottom" or the "Whipsaw".
Now Captain pay at regionals is respectable but not great, usually lower end in the mid 60s up to around low 100s for more senior guys at companies' with a better contract. So as you can imagine, generally once the guys reach these levels, they're less inclined to want to "rock the boat".
Airlines know most guys come to the regionals as a stepping stone, and that pilots want rapid movement to the Captain's seat, which happens through growth. That's why they'll generally accept lower wages. It's a sick cycle and no one has the cojones to break it, because there's always someone out there willing to do it for less.
I'm of the opinion that the legacy airlines should reduce the amount of outsourcing they are doing, especially on the longer routes. Bringing that flying back in house is a win-win for everyone. More major jobs at better pay, mainline aircraft serving more cities, and better passenger convenience. But your flights from Philly to State College or Chicago to Kalamazoo probably couldn't sustain a 737 sized aircraft. Regionals have a niche - it should be smaller markets.