for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

NFT: GermanWings plane crash gets... Stranger

Ben in Tampa : 3/25/2015 8:16 pm
Quote:
A senior military official involved in the investigation described “very smooth, very cool” conversation between the pilots during the early part of the flight from Barcelona to Düsseldorf. Then the audio indicated that one of the pilots left the cockpit and could not re-enter.

“The guy outside is knocking lightly on the door and there is no answer,” the investigator said. “And then he hits the door stronger and no answer. There is never an answer.”

He said, “You can hear he is trying to smash the door down.”


Much more on the NY Times article. Very strange. Important to note that authorities are not pursuing the investigation as an act of terrorism as of now.
NY Times Article - ( New Window )
Pages: 1 2 3 4 <<Prev | Show All |
this just came over CNN - anti-depressants  
idiotsavant : 3/29/2015 9:00 am : link
which would give credence to the theory that, as happens, they were trying to treat psychosis as if it were depression, giving rise to the illusion of sanity, or functionality, while leaving the underlying problem intact, i.e. the DSM might be upside down when it comes to depression/personality disorders:

''Die Welt, a German newspaper, cited an unidentified senior investigator who said that Lubitz suffered from a severe "psychosomatic illness" and that German police seized prescription drugs that treat the condition. Lubitz suffered from a "severe subjective burnout syndrome" and from severe depression, the source told Die Welt.

The New York Times also reported that antidepressants were found during the search of his apartment. CNN has not been able to confirm the reports.''
received treatment for suicidal tendencies  
sphinx : 3/30/2015 10:03 am : link
The co-pilot of the crashed Germanwings plane, Andreas Lubitz, had received treatment for suicidal tendencies years ago, investigators have said, but not in recent doctor visits ... A spokesman for Dusseldorf prosecutors, Ralf Herrenbrueck, said Lubitz had received psychotherapy treatment "with a note about suicidal tendencies" for a number of years before becoming a pilot. However, he said that since Lubitz received his licence, documentation had shown no such treatment.

BBC - ( New Window )
DC Gmen Fan  
Greg from LI : 3/30/2015 10:16 am : link
As a pilot, what do you think of the notion that the increasing automation of modern jets has made it more difficult for pilots to successfully cope with emergencies in the air? There was a long article in (I think) the New Yorker a while back about air disasters that suggested that idea.
(CNN)[Breaking news update 9:40 a.m.]  
sphinx : 3/30/2015 10:45 am : link
The investigation into the crash of Germanwings Flight 9525 has not yet turned up evidence that provides a motivation for co-pilot Andreas Lubitz, who is believed to have downed the plane. Before he was a pilot, Lubitz was suicidal and underwent psychotherapy, but the evidence so far shows no physical medical illness, Dusseldorf prosecutor's spokesman Christoph Kumpa said Monday.

DC Gmen Fan  
sphinx : 3/30/2015 11:07 am : link
The following is from a BBC article with a link to the full article below. Can you cast any light on how this is handled in the U.S.?

Most pilots in the UK start at a flight training school, says a spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority, the UK regulator. But these schools do not screen out candidates for psychological reasons. They are purely looking at someone's ability to fly.

Once the pilot gets a job with an airline they will have a medical before they can fly passengers. Captain Mike Vivian, a former head of Flight Operations at the CAA, said this is "very intensive".

This process does involve an element of psychological screening. Candidates are asked about their background, including their interests and family relationships, as well as whether they had suffered depression or had suicidal feelings, Vivian suggests.

But the screening processes appears to rely on the candidate's answers and the examiner's judgement of their answers. "There is an element of trust in it. We have to trust," says Vivian.

[...]

Most of the medical relates to the pilot's physiology - height, weight, blood and urine. The mental health aspect is small and general in tone. Just six lines out of a three and a half page guidance document set out what the "psychiatric" aspect should cover:

"During assessment of the applicant's history, the doctor should make a general enquiry about mental health which may include mood, sleep and alcohol use. The doctor should observe the applicant during the process of the examination and assess the mental state of the applicant under the broad headings of appearance/ speech/ mood/ thinking/ perception/ cognition/ insight. The doctor should also be looking out for any signs of alcohol or drug misuse."


Link - ( New Window )
RE: DC Gmen Fan  
DC Gmen Fan : 3/30/2015 11:27 am : link
In comment 12210103 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
As a pilot, what do you think of the notion that the increasing automation of modern jets has made it more difficult for pilots to successfully cope with emergencies in the air? There was a long article in (I think) the New Yorker a while back about air disasters that suggested that idea.


That's been debated throughout the industry heavily lately. I'm still forming my opinion but I can give you some of my thoughts.

I learned to fly in the late 1990s and early 2000s. I, like those before me, came up flying "steam gauge" Cessnas, Pipers, Mooneys, King Airs, etc. GPS in aircraft was still pretty new, and most of the training involved learning to maneuver and navigate the airplane by reference to the instruments, and visual cues. Autopilots in the small General Aviation (GA) aircraft were still pretty rare also, so everything was hand flown. In fact, many of us have an inherent "distrust" of automation sometimes. (Although in reality, many automation systems make our job a bit easier since we can now focus on other tasks).

In the mid-2000s, many small GA aircraft began being outfitted with "glass cockpits" meaning flat panel multifunctional displays that had tons of information, GPS, and autopilots. I think today, those who begin training, especially at large "pilot factory" places learn pretty exclusively on these aircraft. A large component of that training is learning how to manage all the information, whereas before it seemed most of the training was how to manage the aircraft's energy and flight path (while keeping the NAV needles centered). Whereas the older generation of pilots were skeptical of automation, the opinion around is that many new pilots rely on the automations.

Before, we used to need to know how to navigate to and from beacons, intercept courses, determine locations of intersection fixes, fly non precision approaches, etc. Today, those concepts are taught but not to the extend they were in the past. Those practices were very beneficial in building a pilot's "situational awareness".

With newer aircraft, you pretty much hit Direct in the GPS and follow the magenta line. Aircraft have flight directors, and autopilots linked to nav systems.

We also see a lot of foreign pilots train in the US because it is cost prohibitive in their native lands. They come here, train for a few hundred hours, then go back and fly as copilots in heavy jet transports. Many don't toil as flight instructors or have the "opportunity" to fly barely airworthy aircraft to build time. That experience is really invaluable.

So to answer your question, there are great and not-so-great pilots who've come out of both schools of training.

I think those who learned in a time where flying the airplane first was the goal may have easier times managing things in an emergency, and are more leery of automation, whereas those who were trained exclusively in very automated aircraft have come to rely on it. There's not much data that I know of, but many a pilot has the opinion that these new-generation pilots may be great systems and automation experts but may struggle when the automation doesn't do what they expect it to do.

I suggest you watch a YouTube video called "Children of Magenta".
Children of Magenta - Automation Dependency - ( New Window )
Sphinx  
DC Gmen Fan : 3/30/2015 11:37 am : link
Officially, this is handled via the FAA here in the US as part of the medical certification. Pilots must self-report adverse conditions and diagnoses.

Also, several US airlines have personality and psychological screening as part of their application and interview process.

Another source of screening are the references and performance histories of each pilot candidate. Thorough background checks are conducted prior to employment to look at criminal history, training history, and employment history.

Can someone slip through the cracks? Probably; it's not a perfect system, and someone could have something happen in their lives after they've passed the screening. That's where other mitigations (such as 2 people in the cockpit at all times) need to be implemented. It's all part of risk management.

(Knock on wood) this is a rare and freak occurrence. Every pilot I know takes this very personally. We spend a lifetime of hard work building trust in our passengers, and an event like this makes everyone question a system that for all intents and purposes, works.

Hope that answered your question.

CNN with unnamed 'sources' and some speculation  
sphinx : 3/31/2015 8:22 am : link
Quote:
Dusseldorf, Germany (CNN)The girlfriend of Germanwings co-pilot Andreas Lubitz knew he had psychological issues but "did not know the extent of the problems," a European government official briefed on the investigation into the crash told CNN on Tuesday.

The source said the girlfriend told investigators the couple were working through the issues together and "were optimistic" they could solve the problems. She was just as surprised as everyone else by what he did, the source says.

According to the source, the girlfriend told investigators she knew Lubitz had been to see two doctors.

The source says those doctors -- an eye doctor and neuropsychologist -- deemed him unfit to work recently. Both doctors came to the same conclusion that he had psychological issues, the source said.

The source had earlier told CNN that Lubitz had complained about vision problems and had gone to see an eye doctor. The eye doctor, the source said, had diagnosed a psychosomatic disorder and had given him an "unfit for work" note.

One of the working theories investigators are looking at is whether Lubitz was afraid his medical condition would cause him to lose his pilot's license, the source added.

"Obviously flying was a big part of his life," the source said, but he made clear that investigators see this as only one possible motive.

Another source, a law enforcement official briefed on the investigation, told CNN earlier Tuesday that authorities believe the primary motive for Lubitz to bring down the plane was that he feared he would not be allowed to fly because of his medical problems.

The European government official briefed on the investigation reiterated that German media tabloid reports that the girlfriend is pregnant or had major personal problems are all speculation and rumor.

The girlfriend and the co-pilot had not, as was widely reported by some media, broken up the day before the crash, the source said.

Updated 8:14 AM ET, Tue March 31, 2015 - ( New Window )
...  
DanMetroMan : 3/31/2015 8:29 am : link
The killer co-pilot who deliberately crashed his Germanwings plane into the French Alps killing 150 people had been treated for 'suicidal tendencies' several years before becoming a pilot and trawled gay porn websites in the days before his death, it has been revealed.

Mistakenly under the belief that he was losing his eyesight and would lose his job as a result, Andreas Lubitz also spent time visiting websites related to suicide, a Dusseldorf police source said.

The killer pilot had reportedly been living 'on the edge' because he feared his deteriorating vision, possibly due to a detached retina, would cost him his pilot's licence. But investigators now believe his condition was simply a nervous, psychosomatic disorder and not physical at all.

The details emerged as German prosecutors revealed Lubitz had previously received psychotherapy 'with a note about suicidal tendencies' several years ago, before he became a pilot.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3018160/Killer-pilot-Andreas-Lubitz-treated-suicidal-tendencies-years-Alps-crash-trawling-gay-porn-websites-doomed-flight-prosecutors-reveal.html#ixzz3VxwMa8uf
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Link - ( New Window )
ABC news  
sphinx : 3/31/2015 1:41 pm : link
Lufthansa issued a statement this afternoon confirming that the co-pilot of the crashed Germanwings plane had informed them of his medical history during his training.

The airline said they handed those files over to investigators.

In the statement, Lufthansa confirmed that Andreas Lubitz had taken a break "for several months" during his training and when he returned in 2009, he submitted forms "about a 'previous episode of severe depression

In spite of that admission, he went on to receive "the medical certificate confirming his fitness to fly" and he went on to complete his training and earn a spot as a co-pilot for Germanwings, a subsidiary of Lufthansa.


Mar 31, 2015, 1:22 PM ET - ( New Window )
It's such a terrible story.  
Del Shofner : 3/31/2015 1:53 pm : link
Losing loved ones in any manner is tragic but the families and friends of the victims of this ... it's just hard even to imagine how they feel.
Video found in wreckage shows Germanwings flight's final seconds  
sphinx : 3/31/2015 3:28 pm : link
Dusseldorf, Germany (CNN)Video found in the wreckage on a French mountainside shows the nightmarish final seconds of Germanwings Flight 9525, reports said Tuesday.

Taken on a cell phone, the video "was so chaotic that it was hard to identify people, but the sounds of the screaming passengers made it perfectly clear that they were aware of what was about to happen to them," according to the French magazine Paris Match, which obtained the video along with the German newspaper Bild.

"One can hear cries of 'My God' in several languages. Metallic banging can also be heard more than three times, perhaps of the pilot trying to open the cockpit door with a heavy object. Towards the end, after a heavy shake, stronger than the others, the screaming intensifies. Then nothing," Paris Match reports.

The two publications described the video but did not post the video itself.



Link - ( New Window )
...  
SanFranNowNCGiantsFan : 4/1/2015 6:33 am : link
If Lufthansa knew his medical history, there's no way this guy should have been flying. No way.
10:04 AM ET, Thu April 2, 2015  
sphinx : 4/2/2015 10:43 am : link
Dusseldorf, Germany (CNN)Leading up to the crash of Germanwings Flight 9525, co-pilot Andreas Lubitz was shopping doctors, seeing at least five, perhaps as many as six, a law enforcement source with detailed knowledge of the investigation told CNN on Thursday.

It is becoming increasingly clear to investigators that Lubitz was "very afraid" he would lose his license to fly because of his medical issues, the source said.

As a result, Lubitz kept going from one doctor to the next seeking help, he said.

The 27-year-old was having trouble sleeping, and one of the doctors he saw recently was a sleep specialist, the source said.


Link - ( New Window )
researched suicide methods  
sphinx : 4/2/2015 10:48 am : link
Germanwings crash pilot Andreas Lubitz researched suicide methods on his tablet computer just days before his passenger jet struck a mountain in the French Alps, prosecutors said Thursday.

Analysis of search terms from the browser history on a device seized during a raid on his home suggested the co-pilot of doomed Flight 4U9525 sought information about medical treatments as well as "types and implementation methods of a suicide," Attorney-General Ralf Herrenbrück from the Dusseldorf prosecutor's office told reporters.

"On at least one day the concerned person spent several minutes with search words about cockpit doors and their security measures," he added.


NBC - ( New Window )
second black box  
sphinx : 4/2/2015 10:52 am : link
Search crews at the site of the Germanwings Flight 9525 crash located the shattered Airbus A320's second "black box," the flight data recorder, on Thursday, as the airline said it was unaware the flight's co-pilot had suffered depression, and as further evidence of that illness emerged.

CBS - ( New Window )
RE: ...  
section125 : 4/2/2015 11:04 am : link
In comment 12212542 SanFranNowNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
If Lufthansa knew his medical history, there's no way this guy should have been flying. No way.


I would amend that to if the German/EU authorities knew of his medical history, then he should never have received his license.
If he has a valid license and met the annual or bi-annual medical requirements, what would keep him out of the cockpit? I don't think the EU is as litigious as the US, but if he was accepted by the governing authorities doesn't that open the individual company to discrimination suits if they unilaterally dismiss him?

Unless and until these physicals are done at government facilities governing the issuance of these licenses, there is little to nothing an individual company can do except to go by the findings of accepted doctors.

It is a loophole (a big one) that this guy was able to exploit. At least at a government run facility, the findings would be almost instantaneous and a direct report to Lufthansa could have been issued.

RE: researched suicide methods  
MetsAreBack : 4/2/2015 12:38 pm : link
In comment 12214512 sphinx said:
Quote:
Germanwings crash pilot Andreas Lubitz researched suicide methods on his tablet computer just days before his passenger jet struck a mountain in the French Alps, prosecutors said Thursday.

- ( New Window )


Well that's interesting I guess, but this wasnt a suicide. It was mass murder.
RE: RE: researched suicide methods  
sphinx : 4/2/2015 3:11 pm : link
In comment 12214762 MetsAreBack said:
Quote:
In comment 12214512 sphinx said:Quote: Germanwings crash pilot Andreas Lubitz researched suicide methods on his tablet computer just days before his passenger jet struck a mountain in the French Alps, prosecutors said Thursday.- ( New Window )


Well that's interesting I guess, but this wasnt a suicide. It was mass murder.

It was both, if it really matters.

Increased the speed  
sphinx : 4/3/2015 8:36 am : link
PARIS -- The co-pilot of the doomed Germanwings flight repeatedly sped up the plane as he used the automatic pilot to descend the A320 into the Alps, the French air accident investigation agency said Friday. [...]

The BEA said the preliminary reading of the data recorder shows that the pilot used the automatic pilot to put the plane into a descent and then repeatedly during the descent adjusted the automatic pilot to speed up the plane. The agency says it will continue studying the black box for more complete details of what happened.


CBS - continued - ( New Window )
Previously reported cell phone video  
sphinx : 4/3/2015 8:50 am : link
Authorities have also found 470 personal effects at the site, according to Robin. That number includes 40 cell phones, though all those were badly damaged. Robin cast doubt that any useful information could be retrieved from those phones, given their condition.

That view is consistent with French officials' claims Wednesday insisting that two publications, German daily Bild and French Paris Match, were wrong to report that cell phone video showed the harrowing final seconds from on board the flight.

Link - ( New Window )
From 'What's the airline's legal liability for Germanwings crash?'  
sphinx : 4/3/2015 11:04 am : link
Quote:
International law renders Germanwings responsible for compensatory damages, which, depending on the applicable damages law, may include loss of support (commonly called economic damages) and loss of familial relationships (consisting of care, comfort, love, affection and guidance, also known as noneconomic damages) up to approximately $156,919 per victim.

Entire article: - ( New Window )
ended the search  
sphinx : 4/5/2015 8:16 am : link
The French authorities say they have ended the search for bodies at the site where a Germanwings co-pilot is said to have crashed his aircraft in the French Alps, killing all 150 people on board.

Identification of the victims will continue with analysis of the DNA found and debris will carry on being removed.

Meanwhile reports said the European Commission took issue with Germany's aviation authority before the crash.


BBC - ( New Window )
told Germany to get its aviation industry in conformity  
sphinx : 4/5/2015 8:21 am : link
According to Saturday’s edition of the Wall Street Journal, “EU officials said Germany’s air-safety regulator suffered from chronic staffing shortfalls that could undermine its ability to run checks of carriers and crew, including medical checks.”

An EU commission spokesman said that, based on the EASA findings, it had “told Germany to get its aviation industry in conformity” with the rules.

“Germany’s responses are currently being evaluated,” he added.


Link - ( New Window )
'astonishing' number of doctors  
sphinx : 4/6/2015 10:25 am : link
Germanwings co-pilot Andreas Lubitz was seeing an “astonishing” number of doctors before he downed a plane into the French Alps, a leaked medical report has revealed.

The 27-year-old was consulting at least five doctors, Der Spiegel reported, including psychiatric specialists and a neurologist.

“For a young man he consulted an astonishing number of doctors,” an investigator told the magazine, which has seen a report on Lubitz’s treatment.

Five separate practices have so far handed their information on the co-pilot to investigators and more may yet come forward.


Link - ( New Window )
not required to inform  
sphinx : 4/7/2015 10:20 am : link
Frankfurt: Lufthansa said on Monday it was not required to inform German aviation authorities about Andreas Lubitz's former depression because he qualified as a pilot before stricter reporting rules went into effect in 2013.

Link - ( New Window )
Pages: 1 2 3 4 <<Prev | Show All |
Back to the Corner