Coach Mason put up an interesting thread in reference to the Giants lack of interest in the OL free agents.
If we go Collins/Tomlinson, would you lose your collective minds or do you want Eli to have the necessary protection he needs in his final years here?
I think that with Spags back in the fold and Eli in McAdoo's system for another year, we need to blow people off the LOS for 3rd/4th and short conversions. I don't what our stats are for those downs and distances, but I'd bet you we are in the lower 25%, league wide.
Convert those downs and distances or get more on first down so we are not in 2nd and 8,9,10 all the damn time.
I'd be thrilled with that. Then go after June 1st cuts.
I learned a few years back.. dont get to attached to who you want and what the team will do.. just accept it.. because guess what.. whether you are mad or not.. It dont change nothing.
If they do that we'll all love the pick.
If they plug the OL with average starters, we'll have a so-so line, and we'll be wishing they had drafted one of the half-dozen hall of famers that enters the NFL in an average year.
If they do that we'll all love the pick.
If they plug the OL with average starters, we'll have a so-so line, and we'll be wishing they had drafted one of the half-dozen hall of famers that enters the NFL in an average year.
If we don't fix our OL and DL, brother, we're in trouble. Hence the handwringing.
Great minds and all. :)
I could see any number of these combinations:
Collins/Cann
Scherff/Tomlinson
Flowers/Cann
Collins/Clemmings
I'm not mad at any of those combinations. Collins/Marpet is in play, also, but not in Rounds 1-2. 1/3, perhaps....
The OL in this draft is not exactly blue chip players........and there seems to be a ton of red chippers.
Is Schwartz really a question mark returning?
I see 4 starters that are given....that a rookie would be viewed a downgrade.
They re-signed last years 5th starter plus signed the best Canadian OL and a tackle who started under McAdoo......plus another year of Mosely who was close last year of playing.
I certainly see one but not 2 early
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all the sweating over what position they draft. I want them to get a great player. I don't care what position it's at. The team is kind of crummy, there are needs almost everywhere -- I don't care whether they draft a tackle or an end or a safety, just get a big-time playmaker who will force the other team to account for him.
If they do that we'll all love the pick.
If they plug the OL with average starters, we'll have a so-so line, and we'll be wishing they had drafted one of the half-dozen hall of famers that enters the NFL in an average year.
If we don't fix our OL and DL, brother, we're in trouble. Hence the handwringing.
How does picking 2 OL back to back help fix the DL?
In 1988, adding Elliott and Moore helped create a dominant line that helped the Giants win Superbowl 25. OJ Anderson had his resurgence because of the offensive line. Simms had an excellent year until he was hurt. We had decent receivers but the line afforded Simms the time to find Ingram and Baker, they didn't always burn by DB's.
I would not be upset with back to back OL early, but with all the needs this team has, I seriously doubt it.
How does picking 2 OL back to back help fix the DL?
Like 2008 despite losing Strahan and Osi, the defense was solid b/c they weren't on the field as often b/c was the OL controlled the game. Bromley gets his shot along with Ellis here now. Add in Selvie at DE and clearly more has been added to the DL already. Fix the OL mess
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In comment 12208725 CBSGameFace said:
How does picking 2 OL back to back help fix the DL?
Like 2008 despite losing Strahan and Osi, the defense was solid b/c they weren't on the field as often b/c was the OL controlled the game. Bromley gets his shot along with Ellis here now. Add in Selvie at DE and clearly more has been added to the DL already. Fix the OL mess
So 2 rookies are going to come in and fix the "mess"? Which players are they replacing in the line up? There's arguably one hole to fill on the OL. We also don't have to pick OL players in the first 2 rounds to add talent and depth to the OL.
Selfie and Ellis are both on 1 year deals. JPP is franchised for one year. Moore still has a lot to prove, Wynn will need development. This team has more needs than just OL.
We draft in tiers and this is more of a red chip draft which means that their are more bunches than outliers. Tough to see that OL especially when Reese is on record saying that his prediliction is on playmakers would have 2 clear cut picks in the 1st 2 rounds.
Also you need to look at who they have and other needs.
- On OL, they have Pugh and Richburg who are both short term and longer term solutions. Beatty and Schwartz have some time on their contracts still. Schwartz was injured last year but one of their big signings last year. There is no reason to think that they are looking for an immediate replacement. Beatty is in similar situation. He makes more money but his contract is not that crazy considering the money that was handed out to someone like Jeremy Pernell who is only a year younger. Jerry is a servicable 5th starter. They can spend a premium (1 or 2) pick to upgrade Jerry and maybe another pick in the top 4 who can serve as a backup for 1-2 years and then start.
- On DL, we have potentially 3 starters who are on 1 year deals and another in the last year of his deal. It makes sense to maybe do the same thing and take 2 in the top 4 and really have some nice depth this year.
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In comment 12208766 Giantology said:
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In comment 12208725 CBSGameFace said:
How does picking 2 OL back to back help fix the DL?
Like 2008 despite losing Strahan and Osi, the defense was solid b/c they weren't on the field as often b/c was the OL controlled the game. Bromley gets his shot along with Ellis here now. Add in Selvie at DE and clearly more has been added to the DL already. Fix the OL mess
So 2 rookies are going to come in and fix the "mess"? Which players are they replacing in the line up? There's arguably one hole to fill on the OL. We also don't have to pick OL players in the first 2 rounds to add talent and depth to the OL.
Selfie and Ellis are both on 1 year deals. JPP is franchised for one year. Moore still has a lot to prove, Wynn will need development. This team has more needs than just OL.
One Guard position is already open unless Pugh moves inside and I doubt the rest play every game. As far as Ellis and Selvie, welcome to the 89% rule where you're going to see more 1 year deals with team likely extending those deals during the season.
And this talented OT is going to replace the incumbent Beatty? Pugh? Are you going to move Pugh inside? Where does Schwartz play? That's also a lot of responsibility to expect out of two rookies. We have more than 2 picks, and there will be OL available in Rounds 3-7.
NYG has the "luxury" of being really bad from a personnel perspective. They can do whatever they want position wise in the draft and it can be considered a good class. To avoid positions (outside of QB/RB) would be silly.
CONCLUSION: Schwartz's return to health in 2015 is iffy.
Still doesn't mean we have to draft OL in rounds 1 and 2.
To say that Reese would never do such a thing is foolish. first you don't know what the organization's perception of need is for the OL. Is it just one player needed at LG or RT or are there deeper concerns about the Schwartz 's health or maybe thery are satisfied as Is. Although I doubt that is the case given some of Coughlin's comments.
Secondly how do they view the overall talent level of this draft class vs the level of need. Maybe depending on how the draft plays out they believe the best convergence of value and need might be drafting a OT and a G. Maybe if they believe Scherff can play LT you draft him first to play LG and move him to replace Beatty next year. If you draft another G or OT you have him to step in and fill the void next year left by Scherff's move.
Also you have no idea what kind of pressure Reese and Coughlin's really are under to win now and how that might impact draft day decisions.
I am not trying to argue OL in the first or bust. There are some strong arguments for going WR or DE. It just rigid inflexibility of some that drives me nuts.
OL will probably be picked in round 2 or 3. Good interior linemen should be available on day representing good value
Draft the best players.
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The Head Coach and GM have both said that if something better comes around then Pugh could be moved anywhere. Schwartz had two serious injuries last year and was atrocious when he did play in the preseason.
Still doesn't mean we have to draft OL in rounds 1 and 2.
I don't even understand how he reached his conclusion about Beatty based on his own statement. He only mentions what they said about Pugh.
1) They can't deal with the agent.
2) It's a position (like QB, Kicker) where either they have a franchise player (like Eli), or they can easily get a replacement FA (Kickers).
3) Too many negatives (Drug History, for example).
4) They have multiple players ranked with the same top grade on their board when the decision to pick comes. At that point, there is a quick discussion about who is the best fit.
5) They get an offer they can't refuse (which almost never happens).
So, their draft will depend on who's picked from the list, and who is the highest player left. That could be two offensive linemen on Rounds 1/2, or it could be a WR and a LB, or an Edge Rusher/Running Back.
Without knowing the rankings on the Giants board, and who gets picked in front of them, we will have no idea what will happen. To say the Giants should do "this" or "that" is fine, but that's not the way it works.
Taking chances (hunches on players) is fine in the later rounds, but you have to get the BPA on your draft board in the first few rounds. Your coach is only as good as the talent he gets.
That does not mean the best athlete (though you'd prefer that to be the case), but the best combination of athlete/player you can get. The guy need to be a top level athlete, but he also needs to be a player.
1) They can't deal with the agent.
2) It's a position (like QB, Kicker) where either they have a franchise player (like Eli), or they can easily get a replacement FA (Kickers).
3) Too many negatives (Drug History, for example).
4) They have multiple players ranked with the same top grade on their board when the decision to pick comes. At that point, there is a quick discussion about who is the best fit.
5) They get an offer they can't refuse (which almost never happens).
So, their draft will depend on who's picked from the list, and who is the highest player left. That could be two offensive linemen on Rounds 1/2, or it could be a WR and a LB, or an Edge Rusher/Running Back.
Without knowing the rankings on the Giants board, and who gets picked in front of them, we will have no idea what will happen. To say the Giants should do "this" or "that" is fine, but that's not the way it works.
Taking chances (hunches on players) is fine in the later rounds, but you have to get the BPA on your draft board in the first few rounds. Your coach is only as good as the talent he gets.
That does not mean the best athlete (though you'd prefer that to be the case), but the best combination of athlete/player you can get. The guy need to be a top level athlete, but he also needs to be a player.
Good post. I'd add though, that Jerry Reese also likes to get a combination of value and need and has said as much before... and we've picked players at a position of need in Round 1 several times under his watch.
We scouted "Jumbo" Elliot heavily (I think this is the way it went) before the draft. Then we took William Roberts. According to reports - the rest of the league got nervous (they thought there was something there that that the Giants must have knew about) in regards to Elliot and he was there when we drafted in RD 2 - so we took him. After the fact - the newspaper articles were all praising the Giants for pulling a con.
Here is the problem - everybody agrees that the game is won in the trenches but, NOBODY seems to want to draft OL high - because it is NOT SEXY. If Scherff is there- DRAFT HIM JERRY!
Look at the 49'ers OL from 2 years ago. Look at the Cowboys OL last year - arguably the best OL in the NFL. Does anybody think the Cowboys would have finished 12-4 last year without that OL?
I said before on this site - my dream scenario off-season would have been if the Giants signed Iupati and then drafted Scherff. There is our OL (barring injuries) for the next 4-5 years. Okay, we didn't sign Iupati - lets go OL HIGH this year in the draft. Lets bite the bullet and get it overwith. If it means taking an OL in the first 2 rounds - go for it.
IMHO - of course.
In 1988, adding Elliott and Moore helped create a dominant line that helped the Giants win Superbowl 25. OJ Anderson had his resurgence because of the offensive line. Simms had an excellent year until he was hurt. We had decent receivers but the line afforded Simms the time to find Ingram and Baker, they didn't always burn by DB's.
I would not be upset with back to back OL early, but with all the needs this team has, I seriously doubt it.
That was one hell of a draft for the Giants (thank goodness for those first two picks).
1 10 Eric Moore OT 01/21/1965 Indiana
2 36 Jumbo Elliott OT 04/01/1965 Michigan
3 62 Sheldon White DB 03/01/1965 Miami (OH)
4 92 Ricky Shaw LB 07/28/1965 Oklahoma State
5 118 Jon Carter DT 03/12/1965 Pittsburgh
6 145 David Houle OG 01/20/1965 Michigan State
7 175 Michael Perez QB 03/07/1965 San Jose State
7 186 Danta Whitaker TE 03/14/1964 Mississippi Valley State
8 202 Sammy Lilly DB 02/12/1965 Georgia Tech
10 259 Eric Hickerson DB 10/04/1965 Indiana
10 265 Steve Wilkes TE 05/18/1966 Appalachian State
11 286 Greg Harris WR 12/30/1965 Troy State
12 313 David Futrell DE 03/20/1966 Brigham Young
12 323 Brendan McCormack DE 03/17/1966 South Carolina
2 OL in the first 4 rounds, I could see that.
Therefore I believe that the Giants will draft two linemen. One, primarily a Guard and one primarily a Tackle.
We scouted "Jumbo" Elliot heavily (I think this is the way it went) before the draft. Then we took William Roberts. According to reports - the rest of the league got nervous (they thought there was something there that that the Giants must have knew about) in regards to Elliot and he was there when we drafted in RD 2 - so we took him. After the fact - the newspaper articles were all praising the Giants for pulling a con.
Here is the problem - everybody agrees that the game is won in the trenches but, NOBODY seems to want to draft OL high - because it is NOT SEXY. If Scherff is there- DRAFT HIM JERRY!
Look at the 49'ers OL from 2 years ago. Look at the Cowboys OL last year - arguably the best OL in the NFL. Does anybody think the Cowboys would have finished 12-4 last year without that OL?
I said before on this site - my dream scenario off-season would have been if the Giants signed Iupati and then drafted Scherff. There is our OL (barring injuries) for the next 4-5 years. Okay, we didn't sign Iupati - lets go OL HIGH this year in the draft. Lets bite the bullet and get it overwith. If it means taking an OL in the first 2 rounds - go for it.
IMHO - of course.
Thank you, brother. That is exactly what I am saying. Dallas won last year because in 3rd and 5, they could cram the ball down your throat. As close to unstoppable as I've seen in a long time.
SF is another great example. The 49ers invested three first round picks in stalwart offensive linemen (Staley, Iupati, and Davis) and the results have been great. They have had one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, opening up giant holes for their power run offense.
We need to convert 3rd and short and 4th and short. That has been our Achilles Heel for 3 years now. Baas getting blowed up at the POA gives me the chills. We need to get nasty up front.
Collins/Scherff/Flowers/Cann/Humphries/Marpet get us better ASAP. I'm just saying that we have been clamoring for OL help on this board for three years.
Eli needs a running game like he had back in 2007. That starts with the OL. No brainer.
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I think it was in the mid - late 80's?
We scouted "Jumbo" Elliot heavily (I think this is the way it went) before the draft. Then we took William Roberts. According to reports - the rest of the league got nervous (they thought there was something there that that the Giants must have knew about) in regards to Elliot and he was there when we drafted in RD 2 - so we took him. After the fact - the newspaper articles were all praising the Giants for pulling a con.
Here is the problem - everybody agrees that the game is won in the trenches but, NOBODY seems to want to draft OL high - because it is NOT SEXY. If Scherff is there- DRAFT HIM JERRY!
Look at the 49'ers OL from 2 years ago. Look at the Cowboys OL last year - arguably the best OL in the NFL. Does anybody think the Cowboys would have finished 12-4 last year without that OL?
I said before on this site - my dream scenario off-season would have been if the Giants signed Iupati and then drafted Scherff. There is our OL (barring injuries) for the next 4-5 years. Okay, we didn't sign Iupati - lets go OL HIGH this year in the draft. Lets bite the bullet and get it overwith. If it means taking an OL in the first 2 rounds - go for it.
IMHO - of course.
Thank you, brother. That is exactly what I am saying. Dallas won last year because in 3rd and 5, they could cram the ball down your throat. As close to unstoppable as I've seen in a long time.
SF is another great example. The 49ers invested three first round picks in stalwart offensive linemen (Staley, Iupati, and Davis) and the results have been great. They have had one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, opening up giant holes for their power run offense.
We need to convert 3rd and short and 4th and short. That has been our Achilles Heel for 3 years now. Baas getting blowed up at the POA gives me the chills. We need to get nasty up front.
Collins/Scherff/Flowers/Cann/Humphries/Marpet get us better ASAP. I'm just saying that we have been clamoring for OL help on this board for three years.
Eli needs a running game like he had back in 2007. That starts with the OL. No brainer.
Your welcome ... BTW - who is Marpet? : ) (I really don't know) ...
look I don't consider my a FOOTBALL genius but, sooner or later the trenches are going to have to be addressed? Lets go OL this year and get it over with.
He looked great at the Senior Bowl as he stoned Shelton at line a few times which turned some heads as Shelton is the consensus #2 DT in this draft.
Combine #s were pretty solid also as he ran the fastest 40 of all the OL. Two time team captain fits the GMen's latest MO on drafting.
Thin in his base, he needs the benefit of the NFL weight room (who doesn't). Can be beat on the edge and his technique, while good, is inconsistent. Might be a reach in round 3, but if we took Beckum, Barden and Jernigan in the third, this kid might be worth a shot.
Also, he wants to play here in NY. For whatever that is worth..
Even if they do pick OL with their first two picks, it would be unlikely they get two stars. A top 10 overall pick, historically, has something like a 25% chance of being a star and about a 35% chance on top of that of being a solid starter. Yes, the draft really is that much of a crap shoot.
That wasn't the wording but it meant the same.
That wasn't the wording but it meant the same.
Was that before or after he had to run out and overpay Lomas Brown, Glenn Parker and Dusty Ziegler and pray they had anything left in the tank? They pretty much all had 1 good year and went bust
Beatty is inconsistent
Jerry sucks
Schwartz injured twice last year and wasn't that great when he did play.
Richburgh is supposed to be a good center but still an unknown
Pugh - Good but not great.
Only 3rd or 4th string guys behind them.
It's really going to suck if we have to have another season without a running game and where Eli has to rush to get rid of the ball on every play.
Our OL isn't as weak as our front 7. If we're going strictly by "need", we would draft pass rushers and linebackers before we go OL.
Anyone want to bother e-mailing this to Bold so we can get rid of this guy once and for all?
I think Jerry is itchin' to pick a position he deems to be a playmaker @ #9. Passrusher, receiver, corner... something like that.
I learned a few years back.. dont get to attached to who you want and what the team will do.. just accept it.. because guess what.. whether you are mad or not.. It dont change nothing.
I seriously think it is a Myth that the Giants draft on BPA only. They have been clearly drafting need in recent years.
2009 Hakeem Nicks ( burress gone )
2010 Jason Pierre-Paul ( Strahan gone and Osi aging )
2011 19 Prince Amukamara
2012 32 David Wilson ( Ahmad Bradshaw gone )
2013 19 Justin Pugh ( no need for comment )
2014 12 Odell Beckham, Jr. Wide receiver ( Nicks gone )
I don't think any of those picks are reaches, maybe Pugh?
As for the OP, I would love the Giants to bolster the line, OL/DL with multiple picks this year. Lack of dominating the LOS is the main difference between this Giants team and the one that hoisted the Lombardi trophy at the end of the season.
For this to happen I think guys like Beasley, Cooper, and White are off the board when we pick in Rd. 1.
Phil in LA : 3/29/2015 12:18 pm : link : reply
and better depth. So, if we take one in 1 and the BPA in 2, or 3 is also an OL we should grab him. We've done really poorly with late round OL's since Diehl.
So because we've drafted poorly in the later rounds we should over spend critical draft resources at a position even though we have critical needs in other areas? Here's a better idea. Expect the scouting department to do their jobs instead of drafting scared. The 'better depth' you allude to should be attainable in the mid rounds(4-5) if our FO gets their act together. As it shows signs of doing with the Kennard and Williams picks from last year.
but its very true they go BPA at a position of need
versus pure BPA as they claim
i would be fine with going OL rounds 1 and 2 but you would need to get 2 probowl caliber players if you go that way to justify the neglect to DE or have a 3rd round DE you felt could start year 1
thats why i would want la'el collins in round 1,a DE in round 2 arik armstead or carl davis maybe and an OG in round 3 (marpet?) the best of both worlds they fix the OL completely this year plus get spags some help at DE look for safety in round 4 and round out the draft with a WR,TE and LB (in order they consider best)
Two OL's that start - not likely! I am thankful we signed Canadian B. Jones for OG and OC duties cause I have a feeling he makes the team and does really well. Remember, he played college ball and has two years of CFL experience so he isn't totally raw like a rookie.
Beatty-Jones-Richburg-Schwartz-Pugh would be nice especially if all are healthy and Jones really comes on and surprises like Seubert did. We'd be blessed.
In fact even with how fluid the draft is I think the top 4 rounds will end up DE, OL, S, WR/TE in no particular order. We don't really have the luxury to cluster draft.
I dn't see the Giants drafting any OL before 40 where the value starts to marry up with need.
Maybe I'm wrong but I hope not,and whoever they draft I will become an instant fan. Some more than others obviously. When I hear if the Giants draft this person I will throw my remote. How dumb and childish is that. I may be hoping for a different player but always reserve judgment until I actually see what they're capable of on the field in the NFL.
IMO they need 1 guy to hopefully push Jerry out of the starting lineup and depth. If Jerry does lose his job wich is best case scenario then that takes care of the depth problem at G. Hopefully at somepoint they find an upgrade over Newhouse as I'd hate to see him play any extended time at either T position. But contrary to popular belief there are 7 rounds,8 selections overall,and there will be a lot of good football players available.
S is a position on here that commonly gets overlooked. I dare say that it's more important at this point to find some competition at S than it is OL,as they could live with Schwartz and Jerry if they both stay healthy. That's a big if with Schwartz so it is important to atleast invest in depth at the very least. They can not however count on 2 2nd and 3rd year 5th round picks to be the salution at S,especially Cooper Taylor as he's shown to be injury prone.
So no,I think it's highly unlikely they draft OL in the 1st and 2nd rounds. Ofcourse I think it's highly unlikely they go OL before 40.
We can speculate all we want as to what direction they will go with there picks but we really don't know!?!
What I do know is that there isn't an OL in this draft worthy of a top 10 selection and I hope the Giants go in a different direction. If they don't I'll reserve judgment and hope I'm wrong!!!
And stop with Dallas. They got their qb beat up and broken up.
I want Beasley or Fowler more than any OL. But pretending you can win w WRs is just not happening. Atlanta and Det are great examples of teams that have a lot of WR talent and it's gotten them nowhere.
Also for those who say it's always BPA. Bullshit. Out Of 300 players in almost every round you will have players very closely ranked when it's time to pick Suppose a top tier WR falls into the third round and the Giants picked White. They aren't grabbing another WR.
Also Reese has made it clear that he values WRs DL and CBs more than other positons. So his philosphy is to pass on a LB. He passes on Sean Lee who despite injuries has been great for Joseph. Neither was a bad pick. BPA is subjective. You can find 20 different opinions when comparing players by the GMs. Just like there's different opinions Here
By the way,did I say ignore the OL completely? here I thought I mentioned the Giants could use an upgrade over Jerry and depth all over the OL.
Here's another one that thinks the draft is only one round!! Haha...