Cooper more than White. If White were a coach and not a player, or if White had played against Cooper in a game or two and had a chance to observe him it would be different.
White went for 9/143/1, Cooper 12/130. Cooper drew more attention, bracketing, double teams from WVU than White did from Saban's defense. Bama won 33-23.
Despite what White said Cooper having earned SEC respect was regularly facing defenses that gave him extra attention. Cooper was almost singlehandedly 'Bama's air attack. Cooper went for 124/1700+/16 which was more than 3X the next 'Bama contributor in all cases.
Also can't agree with White's characterization that the Big 12 competition he faced was as good as Cooper's week in and week out. It wasn't.
Both guys are going to be great pros with impact potential. The difference is Cooper's polish, and extensive track record which dwarfs White's. His agility testing was elite(3-cone 6.79/3.98 shuttle). White has more dominating physical traits than Cooper as a triangle athlete(4.35/40).
I have Cooper as the safest pick in this draft and the #2 overall talent with White a close second and likely Top 10 pick.
He was asked to make the case on why he should be picked ahead of Cooper. He had to say something, and it didn't read as any kind of bashing toward Cooper at all.
Cooper is the better, more polished football player Â
White might have an argument as the athlete with more upside, but Cooper is a safer prospect when you're picking top 10. White has Raiders written all over him, unless they reverse gears and pick polish over upside.
it makes it sound as though White is talking trash against Cooper, but in the context of the actual interview, White comes across as humble, articulate, and very complimentary of Cooper...
it makes it sound as though White is talking trash against Cooper, but in the context of the actual interview, White comes across as humble, articulate, and very complimentary of Cooper...
But of course. Its more of an attention-grabber. Same as when posters here title their threads like "The Eagles will..."
it makes it sound as though White is talking trash against Cooper, but in the context of the actual interview, White comes across as humble, articulate, and very complimentary of Cooper...
Agree, White seemed to be very direct and honest with his responses. He didn't sidestep any of the questions.
He might be off on the facts, though, since Cooper clearly got a lot of attention from defenses. What he may have meant was that any team playing Alabama has to stop the run first, not other weapons in the passing game.
As for who brings more to the table, it seems like they both bring a lot, so it depends on your appetite.
White is on the board at 9, do the Giants pull the trigger? For the sake of argument, let's say the only "elite" pass rushers left are Gregory and Ray, no Olinemen are have been taken yet, Shelton's gone but Brown's there along with the top Safety and CB. I would think the pick is White but it depends on if they're satisfied with Gregory's issue.
Cooper more than White. If White were a coach and not a player, or if White had played against Cooper in a game or two and had a chance to observe him it would be different.
Let's keep in mind. OBJ has that attitude too. These receivers have egos and there is only one football. Beware and watch what we wish for. Two #1 receivers looks good on paper yet there is only one football.
In that interview context, it sounds like a fair comment by White Â
Ray is probably better suited to 3-4 OLB. Edge rusher at #9 isn't looking too good in this draft, unless Dupree rises fast or they decide to gamble on one of the tweeners. And, yes they are tweeners when you're running a 4-3 scheme.
The question is White or an OL, in that scenario, then the question becomes do they pick the LT (Peat) over the WR? White probably gets the nod before Scherff unless NYG projects him to LT.
The pro-OL crowd hates to hear it, but the percentages are NYG would draft the WR before the RT or OG.
the pro-OL crowd are banking on Cooper and White being gone and the Giants passing on guys that are really LB's not DE's in their system...and they make a credible case for that scenario. If DFJ is gone and Dupree doesn't have the grade Scherff becomes the BPA at an area of concern imo.
given many draftniks and plugged in reporters are indicating he's consistently carries a top 8 grade. But, I doubt NYG would draft a RT or OG too heavily out of need this early.
but only time will tell if the Giants will. If they do I just hope they are sold on his work ethic. The potential is there but you'd like a 'cleaner' prospect drafting in the Top 10.
He's a football player. Has the toughness and instincts you cant quantify. Good not great athlete but will maximize his gifts imo. When I watch him he effects the action even when he doesn't make the play himself. Uses his long arms to advantage as well in the trenches to keep guys off him to disengage contact and make a play. Very active and disruptive creating chaos where the offense wants crisp execution.
given many draftniks and plugged in reporters are indicating he's consistently carries a top 8 grade. But, I doubt NYG would draft a RT or OG too heavily out of need this early.
Asking, not commenting per se, but Sy seems to feel Scherff has the wherewithal to slide over to OLT down the road..Might the Giants feel this way as well or is Peat their guy, iyo?
If Fowler winds up the pick, I hope you're right Â
I see a lack of explosion and suddenness off the edge, looks more 3-4 OLB to me. Point him downhill without contact every play DEs encounter. There's got to be a better player at #9.
I could see this but wonder with his agility numbers. It isn't an end all be all but historically their OL picks under Reese as well as the ones they've been rumored to covet have very good agility numbers (especially 3 cone times).
Peat's size is certainly intriguing and the upside is probably highest amongst top guys but there is some bust potential too.
I think it's still a bit early in that regard. With Scherff, I'm concerned his best position projection is consistently OG or RT, rather than LT from the start. When that chatter is ongoing the player often winds up best suited to the lesser spot in the NFL.
Agree to disagree on that statement. Not that they can't be wrong but why do you think nearly every draft outlet has him touted as a Top 5 pick? At #9 I think the Giants would draft him in a NY minute imo.
is that a WR, Beasley(should he fall) or the CB TW will be their pick with the Ol at 40..
Passing on Martin(a big need at the time and certainly one of the BPAs) for OBD(yay) leads me to feel this way, especially since you and other draftniks have stated often that there's OL value at 40 or should be..
Combined with his size, huge hands(11") and decent arm length(33.5") what LT trait doesn't he have? I can't recall an OL prospect with his athletic profile that wasn't considered a LT candidate. Paralysis by over analysis is a common occurrence with high profile draftees.
RE: Nothing good can possibly come of having two top-12 picks at WR. Â
Its funny you post that. I've been looking at White as potentially our Alvin Harper. He may be a tick below Cooper in a vacuum, but would fit in better with what we have. Harper wasnt great -- 35 catches a year or so. But he absolutely took the top off the defense. 2 years at 20+ ypc. Send White deep; either you double him or some % of the time he burns his man. And if you double him, there is just no way you can account for OBJ and Vereen, and possibly Cruz. You cant defend everywhere.
RE: Nothing good can possibly come of having two top-12 picks at WR. Â
but there are certainly aspects of the game where White has an advantage.
Bigger, explodes off the line quicker, stronger, greater catch radius
You could easily argue that White has the edge in all of those areas. I WOULD argue that.
I think it's pretty close. I don't think it would be crazy for a team to choose White over Cooper. But for what the Giants/McAdoo are looking for in a WR, Cooper seems like a better fit.
Tuinei - UDFA
Newton - Street FA (Redskins/USFL)
Stepnoski - 3rd round
Gesek - Obtained from Oakland for a 5th round pick (Replaced in 1993 by 8th-round pick Kevin Gogan)
Williams - 3rd round
Where did that offense have first-round picks? QB, WR, WR, RB.
it makes it sound as though White is talking trash against Cooper, but in the context of the actual interview, White comes across as humble, articulate, and very complimentary of Cooper...
But of course. Its more of an attention-grabber. Same as when posters here title their threads like "The Eagles will..."
I hate it when people do that. Or when they post about a specific player but don't mention the name only a link to a highlight or profile page. "What about this guy at 9? link" Is it so hard to write the name and then put a link?
RE: Frankly, that't the kind of comment that, sight unseen, makes me like Â
Cooper more than White. If White were a coach and not a player, or if White had played against Cooper in a game or two and had a chance to observe him it would be different.
Yeah, how often does a professional athlete make such a statement and wind up being proven correct?
I remember when Ron Dayne's agent was going on and on about how much better he was than Jerome Bettis. lol
RE: Giants2012: do you know how Dallas assembled that line? Â
Tuinei - UDFA
Newton - Street FA (Redskins/USFL)
Stepnoski - 3rd round
Gesek - Obtained from Oakland for a 5th round pick (Replaced in 1993 by 8th-round pick Kevin Gogan)
Williams - 3rd round
Where did that offense have first-round picks? QB, WR, WR, RB.
Well aware. Did you know that OL is light years ahead of the Giants and they had a back named Smith along with a solid TE named Novacek? I do believe Harper never broke 1000 yards in a season. In fact, he only broke 700 yard twice. Want to bet a Cooper, White, OBJ or any of these top picks under the new (cheap) CBA will keep quiet if their stats aren't great? Think again and that Dallas team didn't win the Bowls b/c of Alvin Harper.
That's not good value for the 9th pick in the draft, especially when it's not a need position. The 4.35 speed he showed at the combine doesn't show up on tape and the question is: will he be able to out-battle NFL corners for contested balls the way he out-battled college corners?
At least with Cooper, you'd be able to say you went non-need BPA on a sure thing. But to draft a boom or bust WR with the 9th pick when the team has much more glaring needs at OL and DL is just not smart.
They had Harper and Irvin, and won consecutive Super Bowls with them and an offensive line assembled from spare parts. That's all. I'm not belittling Smith and Aikman, or the Dallas line, or advocating a WR at #9. Just saying it's not a recipe for certain disaster.
By the way, do you call people "skippy" in real life, or just on BBI?
That's not good value for the 9th pick in the draft, especially when it's not a need position. The 4.35 speed he showed at the combine doesn't show up on tape and the question is: will he be able to out-battle NFL corners for contested balls the way he out-battled college corners?
At least with Cooper, you'd be able to say you went non-need BPA on a sure thing. But to draft a boom or bust WR with the 9th pick when the team has much more glaring needs at OL and DL is just not smart.
My feelings exactly. I'm ok with Cooper but I am more leery of White or Parker.
RE: Nothing good can possibly come of having two #1 receivers. Â
Look, it's obviously hard to sustain a pair of great receivers. Egos aren't the main problem. Even money isn't, though that was a factor in breaking up Harper and Irvin. Injuries are the big issue. Look what happened to Nicks and Cruz. If anything, that's an argument in favor of doubling up on playmakers when you have the chance. In the Not-For-Long League, having too many healthy gamebreakers is a nice problem to have.
By the way, it's possible to keep a great tandem together for a pretty good run. The best example might be Coughlin's own protégés in Jacksonville, Jimmy Smith and Keenan McCardell. In six years together (1996-2001), they combined for 1061 catches and 14,365 yards. It's worth noting that Coughlin spent a first-round pick on R.Jay Soward in 2000, anticipating life after Smith & McCardell. Soward busted, and the Jags eventually wound up in cap hell, but the WRs were only a small part of their money-management issues.
Combined with his size, huge hands(11") and decent arm length(33.5") what LT trait doesn't he have? I can't recall an OL prospect with his athletic profile that wasn't considered a LT candidate. Paralysis by over analysis is a common occurrence with high profile draftees.
Agree. Plus the kid's been playing LT his whole career to my knowledge. He also has the versatility to shift around, according to the talking heads, as well.
Lol, all that said I'd rather have a WR. But certainly wouldn't be pissed with Scherff.
Despite what White said Cooper having earned SEC respect was regularly facing defenses that gave him extra attention. Cooper was almost singlehandedly 'Bama's air attack. Cooper went for 124/1700+/16 which was more than 3X the next 'Bama contributor in all cases.
Also can't agree with White's characterization that the Big 12 competition he faced was as good as Cooper's week in and week out. It wasn't.
Both guys are going to be great pros with impact potential. The difference is Cooper's polish, and extensive track record which dwarfs White's. His agility testing was elite(3-cone 6.79/3.98 shuttle). White has more dominating physical traits than Cooper as a triangle athlete(4.35/40).
I have Cooper as the safest pick in this draft and the #2 overall talent with White a close second and likely Top 10 pick.
raever, good post.
But of course. Its more of an attention-grabber. Same as when posters here title their threads like "The Eagles will..."
Agree, White seemed to be very direct and honest with his responses. He didn't sidestep any of the questions.
As for who brings more to the table, it seems like they both bring a lot, so it depends on your appetite.
Let's keep in mind. OBJ has that attitude too. These receivers have egos and there is only one football. Beware and watch what we wish for. Two #1 receivers looks good on paper yet there is only one football.
Those weren't two #1 draft picks.
The question is White or an OL, in that scenario, then the question becomes do they pick the LT (Peat) over the WR? White probably gets the nod before Scherff unless NYG projects him to LT.
The pro-OL crowd hates to hear it, but the percentages are NYG would draft the WR before the RT or OG.
Asking, not commenting per se, but Sy seems to feel Scherff has the wherewithal to slide over to OLT down the road..Might the Giants feel this way as well or is Peat their guy, iyo?
I could see this but wonder with his agility numbers. It isn't an end all be all but historically their OL picks under Reese as well as the ones they've been rumored to covet have very good agility numbers (especially 3 cone times).
Peat's size is certainly intriguing and the upside is probably highest amongst top guys but there is some bust potential too.
White's gonna be good, too. but teams would be foolish to take him over Cooper.
Passing on Martin(a big need at the time and certainly one of the BPAs) for OBD(yay) leads me to feel this way, especially since you and other draftniks have stated often that there's OL value at 40 or should be..
White's gonna be good, too. but teams would be foolish to take him over Cooper.
But if Cooper's gone by 9, you'd have no problem taking White?
Its funny you post that. I've been looking at White as potentially our Alvin Harper. He may be a tick below Cooper in a vacuum, but would fit in better with what we have. Harper wasnt great -- 35 catches a year or so. But he absolutely took the top off the defense. 2 years at 20+ ypc. Send White deep; either you double him or some % of the time he burns his man. And if you double him, there is just no way you can account for OBJ and Vereen, and possibly Cruz. You cant defend everywhere.
See OL skippy
Bigger, explodes off the line quicker, stronger, greater catch radius
You could easily argue that White has the edge in all of those areas. I WOULD argue that.
I think it's pretty close. I don't think it would be crazy for a team to choose White over Cooper. But for what the Giants/McAdoo are looking for in a WR, Cooper seems like a better fit.
Newton - Street FA (Redskins/USFL)
Stepnoski - 3rd round
Gesek - Obtained from Oakland for a 5th round pick (Replaced in 1993 by 8th-round pick Kevin Gogan)
Williams - 3rd round
Where did that offense have first-round picks? QB, WR, WR, RB.
Quote:
it makes it sound as though White is talking trash against Cooper, but in the context of the actual interview, White comes across as humble, articulate, and very complimentary of Cooper...
But of course. Its more of an attention-grabber. Same as when posters here title their threads like "The Eagles will..."
Yeah, how often does a professional athlete make such a statement and wind up being proven correct?
I remember when Ron Dayne's agent was going on and on about how much better he was than Jerome Bettis. lol
Newton - Street FA (Redskins/USFL)
Stepnoski - 3rd round
Gesek - Obtained from Oakland for a 5th round pick (Replaced in 1993 by 8th-round pick Kevin Gogan)
Williams - 3rd round
Where did that offense have first-round picks? QB, WR, WR, RB.
Well aware. Did you know that OL is light years ahead of the Giants and they had a back named Smith along with a solid TE named Novacek? I do believe Harper never broke 1000 yards in a season. In fact, he only broke 700 yard twice. Want to bet a Cooper, White, OBJ or any of these top picks under the new (cheap) CBA will keep quiet if their stats aren't great? Think again and that Dallas team didn't win the Bowls b/c of Alvin Harper.
At least with Cooper, you'd be able to say you went non-need BPA on a sure thing. But to draft a boom or bust WR with the 9th pick when the team has much more glaring needs at OL and DL is just not smart.
By the way, do you call people "skippy" in real life, or just on BBI?
At least with Cooper, you'd be able to say you went non-need BPA on a sure thing. But to draft a boom or bust WR with the 9th pick when the team has much more glaring needs at OL and DL is just not smart.
My feelings exactly. I'm ok with Cooper but I am more leery of White or Parker.
Cruz isn't exactly a number one receiver. That's not his game
Look, it's obviously hard to sustain a pair of great receivers. Egos aren't the main problem. Even money isn't, though that was a factor in breaking up Harper and Irvin. Injuries are the big issue. Look what happened to Nicks and Cruz. If anything, that's an argument in favor of doubling up on playmakers when you have the chance. In the Not-For-Long League, having too many healthy gamebreakers is a nice problem to have.
By the way, it's possible to keep a great tandem together for a pretty good run. The best example might be Coughlin's own protégés in Jacksonville, Jimmy Smith and Keenan McCardell. In six years together (1996-2001), they combined for 1061 catches and 14,365 yards. It's worth noting that Coughlin spent a first-round pick on R.Jay Soward in 2000, anticipating life after Smith & McCardell. Soward busted, and the Jags eventually wound up in cap hell, but the WRs were only a small part of their money-management issues.
He's either going to dominate the NFL or suck? How can you say that about any prospect?
He has excellent size, speed, hands, and production. Why isn't it possible that he develops into a very solid or above average NFL player?
It happens all of the time. Nobody is either "Boom or Bust".
He's either going to dominate the NFL or suck? How can you say that about any prospect?
He has excellent size, speed, hands, and production. Why isn't it possible that he develops into a very solid or above average NFL player?
It happens all of the time. Nobody is either "Boom or Bust".
Stephen Hill? Not being a wiseguy, just askin'
Is it the measurable thing? A lot of great measurable guys simply become good contributors and solid players.
None of these labels are highly predictive. Plenty of 'safe' picks flop, and plenty of risky ones don't wind up at either extreme.
Agree. Plus the kid's been playing LT his whole career to my knowledge. He also has the versatility to shift around, according to the talking heads, as well.
Lol, all that said I'd rather have a WR. But certainly wouldn't be pissed with Scherff.