2013, but was also significantly aided by Eli getting the ball out very quickly and still wasn't much better than mediocre -- PFF, grain of salt and all, had them as 13th in pass pro (Dallas was fourth best).
Also, to quote FootballOutsiders on sacks:
Quote:
The sack is almost like a litmus test for where a fan is in their understanding of the game. Usually you start out thinking it's all about the offensive line and protection, but the sack is actually very dependent on the quarterback. To put it another way, sack avoidance is a great quarterback skill.
Quote:
Mobility is one of the most overrated attributes for a quarterback when it comes to avoiding sacks. The signal callers with excellent footwork in the pocket, capable of quickly identifying a target and releasing are the best at avoiding sacks. It doesn't matter that they couldn't break five seconds in a 40-yard dash. History has shown most of the highly sacked quarterbacks were mobile guys unwilling to give up on the play.
RE: The Giants pass blocking last season was significantly improved from
2013, but was also significantly aided by Eli getting the ball out very quickly and still wasn't much better than mediocre -- PFF, grain of salt and all, had them as 13th in pass pro (Dallas was fourth best).
Also, to quote FootballOutsiders on sacks:
Quote:
The sack is almost like a litmus test for where a fan is in their understanding of the game. Usually you start out thinking it's all about the offensive line and protection, but the sack is actually very dependent on the quarterback. To put it another way, sack avoidance is a great quarterback skill.
Quote:
Mobility is one of the most overrated attributes for a quarterback when it comes to avoiding sacks. The signal callers with excellent footwork in the pocket, capable of quickly identifying a target and releasing are the best at avoiding sacks. It doesn't matter that they couldn't break five seconds in a 40-yard dash. History has shown most of the highly sacked quarterbacks were mobile guys unwilling to give up on the play.
could see that the Giants OL wasn't better at anything than the Dallas OL except losing. Anyone who watched the two Giants vs. Dallas games and thought Eli had better pass protection than Romo is blinder and deader than Ray Charles.
could see that the Giants OL wasn't better at anything than the Dallas OL except losing. Anyone who watched the two Giants vs. Dallas games and thought Eli had better pass protection than Romo is blinder and deader than Ray Charles.
Giants gave up less sacks than Dallas. Not stating they're better - just disapproving your rhetoric.
Again, the problem is that they struggled with their run blocking.
has PFF indicated even as an asterisk, what a tremendous beating Romo took last year despite their vaunted OL? I'm talking about hits after release in addition to sacks..
could see that the Giants OL wasn't better at anything than the Dallas OL except losing. Anyone who watched the two Giants vs. Dallas games and thought Eli had better pass protection than Romo is blinder and deader than Ray Charles.
Giants gave up less sacks than Dallas. Not stating they're better - just disapproving your rhetoric.
Again, the problem is that they struggled with their run blocking.
They were 9th in the league in terms of sacks per game allowed at 1.9.
Also 9th in sack percentage.
All vast improvements from 2013.
They were 22nd in run blocking - IMO, the major issue facing this offense moving forward.
C'mon B, don't shatter the illusion. These guys seem to enjoy the myth of horrible pass protection ...Eli can't throw lying on his back ... Eli's going to get killed, etc. Should we improve the O-line? Absolutely. Do I want to see some help there from the draft? Absolutely. And I especially would like to see improvement in the run blocking. But with changes to the O-line that we already know are coming, and the addition of Vereen, I'm not obsessing over the O-line.
RE: RE: there were only 8 teams ahead of the Giants
They were 9th in the league in terms of sacks per game allowed at 1.9.
Also 9th in sack percentage.
All vast improvements from 2013.
They were 22nd in run blocking - IMO, the major issue facing this offense moving forward.
C'mon B, don't shatter the illusion. These guys seem to enjoy the myth of horrible pass protection ...Eli can't throw lying on his back ... Eli's going to get killed, etc. Should we improve the O-line? Absolutely. Do I want to see some help there from the draft? Absolutely. And I especially would like to see improvement in the run blocking. But with changes to the O-line that we already know are coming, and the addition of Vereen, I'm not obsessing over the O-line.
There's a ridiculously pervasive thought perpetuated by the BBI Mouthbreathers Society that the OLine was worse than it actually was. They certainly weren't great - but to hear some people just spout out what they believe to be "fact" with little to no understanding of offensive line play or what actually happened over 16 games becomes almost an addiction with people. It's very odd.
I agree with your thoughts on addressing the oline - no doubt they need some help and some depth. But the Chicken Little act believed by so many here is played out at this point.
could see that the Giants OL wasn't better at anything than the Dallas OL except losing. Anyone who watched the two Giants vs. Dallas games and thought Eli had better pass protection than Romo is blinder and deader than Ray Charles.
But wait, I thought that was because of our "horrible" defensive line and Coordinator. Btw the way, the sack totals for the two dallas games are 4 to 2 in favor of the cowboys. Our horrible offensive line which averaged a bit less than two sacks allowed per game actually gave up a little bit more than average against the cowboys. Interesting
but that's 4 sacks to 2 in the Giants favor. That poor pass blocking offensive line only allowed two sacks in two games. It gave Eli Manning enough time to pass for 596 yards, six touchdowns and only one interception in those two games.
And before you guys go there, the first game against Dallas occurred in week seven before the Beckham show really got started. Odell stats in the first game was 4 catches for 34 yards. While he did account for two touchdowns, Eli somehow managed to get 210 yards to the other receivers despite the "poor" pass blocking line. Also remember that both Cruz and Jennings were injured that week.
Eli truly seems excited for the up coming year.......
Sucked last year even before the Cruz injury and except for the three wins in the last five games against very bad teams they would have won maybe 3-4 games. The defense sucked also but everyone only now calls the defense a big problem how strange. If you are not worried about every player on this team except maybe one then God help you. I would love for all of our players to just go out and play good ball and quit talking like stars. You won six games right now you should be so humble that the world should not even know that you exist.
see being discussed. How much will McAdoo performance improve this year? I mean, it wasn't just Eli's first year in the system, it was McAdoo's first year as an Offensive Coordinator. There had to be some trial and error mistakes made that we don't know about that hopefully will be better this year.
I'm not just talking about play-calling but also designing plays, teaching the plays, uses of personnel and formations, exploiting mismatches and covering weaknesses, avoiding tenancies, etc...
You're disproving nothing. There is nothing more meaningless than NFL ranking stats. They have no context and no correlation to how games play out. The Giants couldn't run the ball and they couldn't pass protect for more than a few seconds. The OL was worse than 2013 the difference was the OC didn't insist on having his QB hold the ball waiting for complicated route trees to play out. If he did Eli would have led the league in INT's again because his line can't run or pass block.
and how much of a homer to you have to be to compare the 2014 Giants OL to the Cowboys 2014 OL. The Cowboys had 2 first team All Pro's and 1 second team All Pro. Not the meaningless Pro Bowl. 3 All Pro's. The Giants had John Jerry, JD Walton, Pugh & Richburg all way below average. How is this even a discussion?
you made this statement..."the Giants OL wasn't better at anything than the Dallas OL except losing."
When in actuality they were better at PassPro according to the numbers.
Know how many PA's Manning had last year? 601
How about Romo? 435
That's a difference of 166 PA's or over 10 a game.
Yet the Giants protected their QB better than Dallas despite more opportunities for the defense to sack the QB. Again, the Cowboys gave up more sacks than the Giants despite 166 less Passing Attempts over the course of 16 games.
and how much of a homer to you have to be to compare the 2014 Giants OL to the Cowboys 2014 OL. The Cowboys had 2 first team All Pro's and 1 second team All Pro. Not the meaningless Pro Bowl. 3 All Pro's. The Giants had John Jerry, JD Walton, Pugh & Richburg all way below average. How is this even a discussion?
It's a discussion becasue All Pros and Pro Bowls are about the individual - not the unit.
You made a blanket statement that has been proven wrong - admit it and move on.
You believe the Giants OL was better at pass protecting than the Dallas OL in 2014. Please confirm so I can add you to scroll past list on any football thread.
that shows Eli's average time to throw the ball compared to other QB's in the league. I bet it was horrible.
That would be hard to measure because a lot of plays were designed to get the ball out quickly. That would cause defenders to hold up and consider reversing direction.
If you could only measure play where Eli dropped back X number of steps...
i've forgotten more than you'll ever know about football - so stop it. Most know me here and my credentials - you obviously have no clue. The last thing i aim to do on BBI at this point is argue with the mouthbreathers. Carry on.
I'm of the opinion that while sack numbers were decent that doesn't tell the story. The ball got out very fast which shielded the lines inability to sustain blocks. Eli was consistently moved off his 'spot' in the pocket. The interior line from Guard to Guard especially the right side was unable to maintain the 'bubble' of the pocket. It's a testament to Eli's pocket awareness/improvisation and Macs quick hit offense the passing stats they produced.
As far as run blocking they were dysfunctional. Stacked and stymied all season. Short yardage was an embarrassment. 3.6 YPC was among the worst in the league.
why don't you find proof of your assertion that the Giants ranked in the bottom half of the league in pass protection. Since you are the one making the claim, I feel the burden of proof is on you
Don't worry Curtis. I've already proven that you just made that shit up.
Well good lookin out B. :) Haha, I have to admit I'm surprised.
Romo holds onto the ball much longer, trying to escapre, and make plays. Therefore he gets sacked more. Same with Rodgers.
Eli gets the ball out quickly and sometimes forces throws to avoid sacks. So while he may not get sacked a lot, it doesnt mean he isnt getting pressured/hit. Unfortunately it leads to a higher number of INTs.
So Rodgers/Romo hold the ball and get sacked but they dont throw INTs.
Eli's pass protection was not very good last year. I credit McAdoo for setting up an offense for getting the ball away quickly.
my apologies - shouldn't have sounded so abrupt. My fault.
And of course the fact that the ball got out quicker was a factor - as was the inability of the oline to run block effectively - causing the offense to pass more.
We're just asserting that the PP was better than average and the RB was pretty poor.
You believe the Giants OL was better at pass protecting than the Dallas OL in 2014. Please confirm so I can add you to scroll past list on any football thread.
Arnie, stats are stats. Pro bowl is a popularity contest . So much of the football world believes only what the media tells them .
This year if the media comes out and says the Giants o-line is one of the best in the league, 80% of the football world will believe it's true.
Fact is Eli threw the ball a lot last season , and teams knew he was going to do so . They blitzed heavy or dropped extra men back in coverage , and yet eli stayed upright more than most. We were a very one dementional team last year , this oline could have done much worse.
2013 OL: Awful, arguably the #32 aka worst OL in the league
2014 OL: Clearly Below-average, but improvement from '13 and probably closer to 20th best than 32nd
2014 Pass Protection >>> 2014 Run Blocking
I thought our weakness this year was definitely run blocking. We couldn't create any holes for our backs and our backs just weren't shifty enough to create on their own. We probably had the worst running game in the league. It was consistently awful.
I thought our pass pro was inconsistent. That Eagles game still bothers me. What they did to our OL that night was embarrassing. Our pass pro looked like dogshit in that game. And it looked pretty bad in others. But we also did balance those poor games with some strong pass pro games. Through the first 3-4 games, our pass pro was looking solid. We did a great job against that beastly Rams DL at the end of the season. Our pass pro had it's moments.
We still have a long way to go. I'd say the glass-half full approach is to focus on the fact that Richburg/Pugh were both mediocre last year, but have a lot of potential for growth due to their youth. If those 2 both jump a level, our entire OL would. The glass-half empty approach would focus on Beatty. Last year was a very good year from him but is he a guy you can count on to repeat his '14 form for next year? I like Beatty but he's a guy that I have a bit of trouble counting on.
The Eagles game is typically what happens to most teams
once or twice during the season..A pathetic 0-3 Bucs team goes into a 2-1 Steelers team's house and beats them rather convincingly(although the score might not reflect that)...We would have bet the farm on the Steelers AT HOME wiping the floor with the Bucs WITH THEIR 3rd stringers..
It happens..The year(2008) we started out 11-1 we went into the house of the pathetic Browns who were 0-4(?) or whatever their record was and they wiped the floor with us...Go through the schedule for most or every team and you'll see this crap go on, inexplicably, year after year, after year..
McAdoo offense protected Eli more then the OL did.....
But even with that.......this OL improved and I expect it to be even better this year. We added depth and hopefully will find one more starter.......and let them work through it......it takes a little time to gel.
Beatty played much better last year......Thank you...McAdoo!
2013 OL: Awful, arguably the #32 aka worst OL in the league
2014 OL: Clearly Below-average, but improvement from '13 and probably closer to 20th best than 32nd
2014 Pass Protection >>> 2014 Run Blocking
I thought our weakness this year was definitely run blocking. We couldn't create any holes for our backs and our backs just weren't shifty enough to create on their own. We probably had the worst running game in the league. It was consistently awful.
I thought our pass pro was inconsistent. That Eagles game still bothers me. What they did to our OL that night was embarrassing. Our pass pro looked like dogshit in that game. And it looked pretty bad in others. But we also did balance those poor games with some strong pass pro games. Through the first 3-4 games, our pass pro was looking solid. We did a great job against that beastly Rams DL at the end of the season. Our pass pro had it's moments.
We still have a long way to go. I'd say the glass-half full approach is to focus on the fact that Richburg/Pugh were both mediocre last year, but have a lot of potential for growth due to their youth. If those 2 both jump a level, our entire OL would. The glass-half empty approach would focus on Beatty. Last year was a very good year from him but is he a guy you can count on to repeat his '14 form for next year? I like Beatty but he's a guy that I have a bit of trouble counting on.
So let's say they were around 20th, here are the likely incremental improvements this season:
-2nd year in system when they were clearly struggling early on
-Better health assuming some normalization to average
-Addition by subtraction: No more Walton, Jerry likely regulated as back-up
-Richburg no longer a rookie and playing at his more natural position of Center.
-Likely one plug and play high level starter added in top 2 rounds
When you add all those together, the line should be markedly better this year.
that shows Eli's average time to throw the ball compared to other QB's in the league. I bet it was horrible.
I don't think that's possible due to the different systems and passing concepts out there.
However to your point, I hope we get better in year 2. We will probably get rid of the ball quicker, or clear out and throw to our RBs especially Vareen. I expect us to continue to create room for Eli by roll out and sprint out calls moving the pocket so that we can take shots down the field in 5 and 7 step drops.
So we will see, I think if we stick to our game plan excluding the 1st Eagles game, where we somehow tried running 5 and 7 step drops, we will be fine.
Run blocking worries me a lot more than pass blocking if I had to pick.
Rely on statistics for sacks allowed to judge the performance of the line? They don't take into account how many times Eli was hit or forced to throw under duress or couldn't step into his throws. They also don't account for teams like the Jags, Titans, and Redskins who had anemic pas rushes. Might the better performance towards the end of the year be due to the quality of the opponent. I don't have a dog in this fight but I'm sure the game fil is a much better barometer of the OL performance than statistics.
Giants gave up less sacks than Dallas. Not stating they're better - just disapproving your rhetoric.
If you look at stat sheets, you see the Giants and Eli, were only sacked 30 times, which means, statistically, only 8 other teams only gave up fewer sacks.....if the Giants had 3 more sacks, they would vault to 16th......
for the most part, who holds onto the ball longer, Eli or Romo? Just watch the two Giant games, especially the last one....
Stats without the proper context provide an incomplete picture. How quickly the MacAdoo offense gets the ball out needs to be factored into offensive line performance in passing situations. The eyeball test indicates it is among the fastest times in the league from snap to release. We were 15th in 3rd down pass percentage(43.5%) when protection is critical to converting first downs.
The rushing attack was worse. We ranked 29th in YPC(3.6) and 30th in short yardage situations(2 or less). That's unacceptable imo. A successful ground game impacts time of possession. Having the ball keeps our defense off the field.
You can separate pass blocking and run blocking on a stat sheet but not on the field during the game. They go hand in hand. It is a symbiotic relationship. They rely on one another, feed off each other. As an overall unit our offensive line was bad.
Eli had a good statistical season but imo will need more from the guys around him if we expect to beat good teams . As a team working together to win ball games we failed. Having an average pass protecting unit in a vacuum is meaningless. Our offense line play needs to improve in both phases if we want to compete for titles imo.
I hate the "the stats have to viewed in context" stuff when the stats don't say what they want them to say. Stats should always be viewed in context. Even something as simple as counting the number of yards a running back gains in a season needs context. More games per season, rule changes about lining up in the middle of the field, etc...
If you only ask for context when the stats don't explicitly support your points then it makes you a hypocrite and we go through that nonsense on this board too often.
Stats aren't the be all end all. They have limited application depending on the point they are asked to support.
If you want to know how many yards a guy rushed for go to the stat sheet no problem. If you want to draw conclusions concerning the quality of the time your QB has to deliver the ball sacks aren't going to give you the full picture.
Not too hard to understand the limitations of stats and their utilization in context. I hope that clears it up for you.
We were 15th in 3rd down pass percentage(43.5%) when protection is critical to converting first downs.
Considering the injuries to the oline, the lack of a third down back, and how many games the team did not have either of it's top two recievers (Cruz and Beckham missed a combined 14 games), that actually not bad for a makeshift line with three of the five spots playing together for the first time.
Finally, the meme that the Giants didn't give up a lot of sacks because they threw so many short passes didn't pass the eyeball test for me. So I did some digging and finally found something on a free site that would help disprove that. Pro-football reference breaks down how many deep passes a team throws in each game. I'm not sure what their measurement for a deep pass is but as you can see, after the bye, the Giants threw more deep passes in each game but three. The Washington, Jaguar, and Dallas games.
By my count the offensive line only gave up 14 sacks in those games. That 14 sacks in the last nine games. But somehow that's all on Eli and the offensive game plan.
Even with "context" the stats don't back that point of view up. Link - ( New Window )
wrong attachment possibly? We'll agree to disagree no matter how many illusory stats you headline. When you start cherry picking minutiae from stat lines it's clear you've grown desperate.
As for injuries barring Schwartz situation we had most of our guys in the lineup all year. And given the length of Schwartz unavailability the lack of quality talent as a whole was clearly evident. John Jerry? Or Charles Brown when Pugh was out a couple of games. Unacceptable. This is the NFL you're roster must be able to absorb some attrition and maintain it's performance. Our offensive line failed to do so. What has changed? Brett Jones? Newhouse? We can and have to do better.
and improved the O-line's stats. There were games last year when the pass pro was awful, and games when it was very solid.
But the big factor that is often overlooked in this is Eli himself. He is one of the best in the league at sliding in the pocket to avoid pressure and find a passing lane. That doesn't show up on the stat sheet.
RE: The new McAdoo offense helped cut down on sacks
But the big factor that is often overlooked in this is Eli himself. He is one of the best in the league at sliding in the pocket to avoid pressure and find a passing lane. That doesn't show up on the stat sheet.
Agreed but any top quality QB has to be able to do this..
As I quoted from FO, sack avoidance is a QB skill and often has very
little to with mobility (at least in a mobile = less sacks way).
"Context for stats" in this case should be "sacks are a proven superficial, flawed way to argue OL quality; I'm better than that."
Re: Dallas. I don't have the exact number on my at the moment, but Romo held the ball longer in 2014 (which likely contributed, honestly, to his lowest turnover rate); that's why his sacks/hits were higher, despite having a better OL and fewer drop backs. It's not some puzzle.
Giants were like 4th in sacks - they had a lot of sacks but watching them I would not consider their pass rush as dominating. Just threw that the Jags sack numbers as an fyi.
Sometimes it comes down to the 1 on 1 matchups. you can even have a good OLine and an average pass rush and wind up giving up sacks and pressures. If memory serves JPP had a pretty good game against Smith and the cowboys.
According to PFF--so take it for what it's worth--the Giants line ranked 13th in pass protection and 30th in run blocking.
That seems to support the numbers and what we saw last season.
Link - ( New Window )
Also, to quote FootballOutsiders on sacks:
Also, to quote FootballOutsiders on sacks:
Quote:
The sack is almost like a litmus test for where a fan is in their understanding of the game. Usually you start out thinking it's all about the offensive line and protection, but the sack is actually very dependent on the quarterback. To put it another way, sack avoidance is a great quarterback skill.
Quote:
Mobility is one of the most overrated attributes for a quarterback when it comes to avoiding sacks. The signal callers with excellent footwork in the pocket, capable of quickly identifying a target and releasing are the best at avoiding sacks. It doesn't matter that they couldn't break five seconds in a 40-yard dash. History has shown most of the highly sacked quarterbacks were mobile guys unwilling to give up on the play.
And throwing off that back foot!!! ha!!!!!!
Giants gave up less sacks than Dallas. Not stating they're better - just disapproving your rhetoric.
Again, the problem is that they struggled with their run blocking.
Just askin'
Quote:
could see that the Giants OL wasn't better at anything than the Dallas OL except losing. Anyone who watched the two Giants vs. Dallas games and thought Eli had better pass protection than Romo is blinder and deader than Ray Charles.
Giants gave up less sacks than Dallas. Not stating they're better - just disapproving your rhetoric.
Again, the problem is that they struggled with their run blocking.
Agreed
They were 9th in the league in terms of sacks per game allowed at 1.9.
Also 9th in sack percentage.
All vast improvements from 2013.
They were 22nd in run blocking - IMO, the major issue facing this offense moving forward.
C'mon B, don't shatter the illusion. These guys seem to enjoy the myth of horrible pass protection ...Eli can't throw lying on his back ... Eli's going to get killed, etc. Should we improve the O-line? Absolutely. Do I want to see some help there from the draft? Absolutely. And I especially would like to see improvement in the run blocking. But with changes to the O-line that we already know are coming, and the addition of Vereen, I'm not obsessing over the O-line.
Quote:
for least sacks allowed.
They were 9th in the league in terms of sacks per game allowed at 1.9.
Also 9th in sack percentage.
All vast improvements from 2013.
They were 22nd in run blocking - IMO, the major issue facing this offense moving forward.
C'mon B, don't shatter the illusion. These guys seem to enjoy the myth of horrible pass protection ...Eli can't throw lying on his back ... Eli's going to get killed, etc. Should we improve the O-line? Absolutely. Do I want to see some help there from the draft? Absolutely. And I especially would like to see improvement in the run blocking. But with changes to the O-line that we already know are coming, and the addition of Vereen, I'm not obsessing over the O-line.
There's a ridiculously pervasive thought perpetuated by the BBI Mouthbreathers Society that the OLine was worse than it actually was. They certainly weren't great - but to hear some people just spout out what they believe to be "fact" with little to no understanding of offensive line play or what actually happened over 16 games becomes almost an addiction with people. It's very odd.
I agree with your thoughts on addressing the oline - no doubt they need some help and some depth. But the Chicken Little act believed by so many here is played out at this point.
But wait, I thought that was because of our "horrible" defensive line and Coordinator. Btw the way, the sack totals for the two dallas games are 4 to 2 in favor of the cowboys. Our horrible offensive line which averaged a bit less than two sacks allowed per game actually gave up a little bit more than average against the cowboys. Interesting
And before you guys go there, the first game against Dallas occurred in week seven before the Beckham show really got started. Odell stats in the first game was 4 catches for 34 yards. While he did account for two touchdowns, Eli somehow managed to get 210 yards to the other receivers despite the "poor" pass blocking line. Also remember that both Cruz and Jennings were injured that week.
I'm not just talking about play-calling but also designing plays, teaching the plays, uses of personnel and formations, exploiting mismatches and covering weaknesses, avoiding tenancies, etc...
When in actuality they were better at PassPro according to the numbers.
Know how many PA's Manning had last year? 601
How about Romo? 435
That's a difference of 166 PA's or over 10 a game.
Yet the Giants protected their QB better than Dallas despite more opportunities for the defense to sack the QB. Again, the Cowboys gave up more sacks than the Giants despite 166 less Passing Attempts over the course of 16 games.
Those numbers are pretty difficult to ignore.
It's a discussion becasue All Pros and Pro Bowls are about the individual - not the unit.
You made a blanket statement that has been proven wrong - admit it and move on.
That would be hard to measure because a lot of plays were designed to get the ball out quickly. That would cause defenders to hold up and consider reversing direction.
If you could only measure play where Eli dropped back X number of steps...
As far as run blocking they were dysfunctional. Stacked and stymied all season. Short yardage was an embarrassment. 3.6 YPC was among the worst in the league.
-The OL or bust crowd
Quote:
why don't you find proof of your assertion that the Giants ranked in the bottom half of the league in pass protection. Since you are the one making the claim, I feel the burden of proof is on you
Don't worry Curtis. I've already proven that you just made that shit up.
Well good lookin out B. :) Haha, I have to admit I'm surprised.
Eli gets the ball out quickly and sometimes forces throws to avoid sacks. So while he may not get sacked a lot, it doesnt mean he isnt getting pressured/hit. Unfortunately it leads to a higher number of INTs.
So Rodgers/Romo hold the ball and get sacked but they dont throw INTs.
Eli's pass protection was not very good last year. I credit McAdoo for setting up an offense for getting the ball away quickly.
And of course the fact that the ball got out quicker was a factor - as was the inability of the oline to run block effectively - causing the offense to pass more.
We're just asserting that the PP was better than average and the RB was pretty poor.
Arnie, stats are stats. Pro bowl is a popularity contest . So much of the football world believes only what the media tells them .
This year if the media comes out and says the Giants o-line is one of the best in the league, 80% of the football world will believe it's true.
Fact is Eli threw the ball a lot last season , and teams knew he was going to do so . They blitzed heavy or dropped extra men back in coverage , and yet eli stayed upright more than most. We were a very one dementional team last year , this oline could have done much worse.
2014 OL: Clearly Below-average, but improvement from '13 and probably closer to 20th best than 32nd
2014 Pass Protection >>> 2014 Run Blocking
I thought our weakness this year was definitely run blocking. We couldn't create any holes for our backs and our backs just weren't shifty enough to create on their own. We probably had the worst running game in the league. It was consistently awful.
I thought our pass pro was inconsistent. That Eagles game still bothers me. What they did to our OL that night was embarrassing. Our pass pro looked like dogshit in that game. And it looked pretty bad in others. But we also did balance those poor games with some strong pass pro games. Through the first 3-4 games, our pass pro was looking solid. We did a great job against that beastly Rams DL at the end of the season. Our pass pro had it's moments.
We still have a long way to go. I'd say the glass-half full approach is to focus on the fact that Richburg/Pugh were both mediocre last year, but have a lot of potential for growth due to their youth. If those 2 both jump a level, our entire OL would. The glass-half empty approach would focus on Beatty. Last year was a very good year from him but is he a guy you can count on to repeat his '14 form for next year? I like Beatty but he's a guy that I have a bit of trouble counting on.
It happens..The year(2008) we started out 11-1 we went into the house of the pathetic Browns who were 0-4(?) or whatever their record was and they wiped the floor with us...Go through the schedule for most or every team and you'll see this crap go on, inexplicably, year after year, after year..
Beatty played much better last year......Thank you...McAdoo!
2014 OL: Clearly Below-average, but improvement from '13 and probably closer to 20th best than 32nd
2014 Pass Protection >>> 2014 Run Blocking
I thought our weakness this year was definitely run blocking. We couldn't create any holes for our backs and our backs just weren't shifty enough to create on their own. We probably had the worst running game in the league. It was consistently awful.
I thought our pass pro was inconsistent. That Eagles game still bothers me. What they did to our OL that night was embarrassing. Our pass pro looked like dogshit in that game. And it looked pretty bad in others. But we also did balance those poor games with some strong pass pro games. Through the first 3-4 games, our pass pro was looking solid. We did a great job against that beastly Rams DL at the end of the season. Our pass pro had it's moments.
We still have a long way to go. I'd say the glass-half full approach is to focus on the fact that Richburg/Pugh were both mediocre last year, but have a lot of potential for growth due to their youth. If those 2 both jump a level, our entire OL would. The glass-half empty approach would focus on Beatty. Last year was a very good year from him but is he a guy you can count on to repeat his '14 form for next year? I like Beatty but he's a guy that I have a bit of trouble counting on.
So let's say they were around 20th, here are the likely incremental improvements this season:
-2nd year in system when they were clearly struggling early on
-Better health assuming some normalization to average
-Addition by subtraction: No more Walton, Jerry likely regulated as back-up
-Richburg no longer a rookie and playing at his more natural position of Center.
-Likely one plug and play high level starter added in top 2 rounds
When you add all those together, the line should be markedly better this year.
I don't think that's possible due to the different systems and passing concepts out there.
However to your point, I hope we get better in year 2. We will probably get rid of the ball quicker, or clear out and throw to our RBs especially Vareen. I expect us to continue to create room for Eli by roll out and sprint out calls moving the pocket so that we can take shots down the field in 5 and 7 step drops.
So we will see, I think if we stick to our game plan excluding the 1st Eagles game, where we somehow tried running 5 and 7 step drops, we will be fine.
Run blocking worries me a lot more than pass blocking if I had to pick.
All from his back !!!
If you look at stat sheets, you see the Giants and Eli, were only sacked 30 times, which means, statistically, only 8 other teams only gave up fewer sacks.....if the Giants had 3 more sacks, they would vault to 16th......
for the most part, who holds onto the ball longer, Eli or Romo? Just watch the two Giant games, especially the last one....
The rushing attack was worse. We ranked 29th in YPC(3.6) and 30th in short yardage situations(2 or less). That's unacceptable imo. A successful ground game impacts time of possession. Having the ball keeps our defense off the field.
You can separate pass blocking and run blocking on a stat sheet but not on the field during the game. They go hand in hand. It is a symbiotic relationship. They rely on one another, feed off each other. As an overall unit our offensive line was bad.
Eli had a good statistical season but imo will need more from the guys around him if we expect to beat good teams . As a team working together to win ball games we failed. Having an average pass protecting unit in a vacuum is meaningless. Our offense line play needs to improve in both phases if we want to compete for titles imo.
If you only ask for context when the stats don't explicitly support your points then it makes you a hypocrite and we go through that nonsense on this board too often.
If you want to know how many yards a guy rushed for go to the stat sheet no problem. If you want to draw conclusions concerning the quality of the time your QB has to deliver the ball sacks aren't going to give you the full picture.
Not too hard to understand the limitations of stats and their utilization in context. I hope that clears it up for you.
Considering the injuries to the oline, the lack of a third down back, and how many games the team did not have either of it's top two recievers (Cruz and Beckham missed a combined 14 games), that actually not bad for a makeshift line with three of the five spots playing together for the first time.
Finally, the meme that the Giants didn't give up a lot of sacks because they threw so many short passes didn't pass the eyeball test for me. So I did some digging and finally found something on a free site that would help disprove that. Pro-football reference breaks down how many deep passes a team throws in each game. I'm not sure what their measurement for a deep pass is but as you can see, after the bye, the Giants threw more deep passes in each game but three. The Washington, Jaguar, and Dallas games.
By my count the offensive line only gave up 14 sacks in those games. That 14 sacks in the last nine games. But somehow that's all on Eli and the offensive game plan.
Even with "context" the stats don't back that point of view up.
Link - ( New Window )
As for injuries barring Schwartz situation we had most of our guys in the lineup all year. And given the length of Schwartz unavailability the lack of quality talent as a whole was clearly evident. John Jerry? Or Charles Brown when Pugh was out a couple of games. Unacceptable. This is the NFL you're roster must be able to absorb some attrition and maintain it's performance. Our offensive line failed to do so. What has changed? Brett Jones? Newhouse? We can and have to do better.
But the big factor that is often overlooked in this is Eli himself. He is one of the best in the league at sliding in the pocket to avoid pressure and find a passing lane. That doesn't show up on the stat sheet.
But the big factor that is often overlooked in this is Eli himself. He is one of the best in the league at sliding in the pocket to avoid pressure and find a passing lane. That doesn't show up on the stat sheet.
Agreed but any top quality QB has to be able to do this..
"Context for stats" in this case should be "sacks are a proven superficial, flawed way to argue OL quality; I'm better than that."
Re: Dallas. I don't have the exact number on my at the moment, but Romo held the ball longer in 2014 (which likely contributed, honestly, to his lowest turnover rate); that's why his sacks/hits were higher, despite having a better OL and fewer drop backs. It's not some puzzle.
Sometimes it comes down to the 1 on 1 matchups. you can even have a good OLine and an average pass rush and wind up giving up sacks and pressures. If memory serves JPP had a pretty good game against Smith and the cowboys.