You believe the Giants OL was better at pass protecting than the Dallas OL in 2014. Please confirm so I can add you to scroll past list on any football thread.
Arnie, stats are stats. Pro bowl is a popularity contest . So much of the football world believes only what the media tells them .
This year if the media comes out and says the Giants o-line is one of the best in the league, 80% of the football world will believe it's true.
Fact is Eli threw the ball a lot last season , and teams knew he was going to do so . They blitzed heavy or dropped extra men back in coverage , and yet eli stayed upright more than most. We were a very one dementional team last year , this oline could have done much worse.
2013 OL: Awful, arguably the #32 aka worst OL in the league
2014 OL: Clearly Below-average, but improvement from '13 and probably closer to 20th best than 32nd
2014 Pass Protection >>> 2014 Run Blocking
I thought our weakness this year was definitely run blocking. We couldn't create any holes for our backs and our backs just weren't shifty enough to create on their own. We probably had the worst running game in the league. It was consistently awful.
I thought our pass pro was inconsistent. That Eagles game still bothers me. What they did to our OL that night was embarrassing. Our pass pro looked like dogshit in that game. And it looked pretty bad in others. But we also did balance those poor games with some strong pass pro games. Through the first 3-4 games, our pass pro was looking solid. We did a great job against that beastly Rams DL at the end of the season. Our pass pro had it's moments.
We still have a long way to go. I'd say the glass-half full approach is to focus on the fact that Richburg/Pugh were both mediocre last year, but have a lot of potential for growth due to their youth. If those 2 both jump a level, our entire OL would. The glass-half empty approach would focus on Beatty. Last year was a very good year from him but is he a guy you can count on to repeat his '14 form for next year? I like Beatty but he's a guy that I have a bit of trouble counting on.
The Eagles game is typically what happens to most teams
once or twice during the season..A pathetic 0-3 Bucs team goes into a 2-1 Steelers team's house and beats them rather convincingly(although the score might not reflect that)...We would have bet the farm on the Steelers AT HOME wiping the floor with the Bucs WITH THEIR 3rd stringers..
It happens..The year(2008) we started out 11-1 we went into the house of the pathetic Browns who were 0-4(?) or whatever their record was and they wiped the floor with us...Go through the schedule for most or every team and you'll see this crap go on, inexplicably, year after year, after year..
McAdoo offense protected Eli more then the OL did.....
But even with that.......this OL improved and I expect it to be even better this year. We added depth and hopefully will find one more starter.......and let them work through it......it takes a little time to gel.
Beatty played much better last year......Thank you...McAdoo!
2013 OL: Awful, arguably the #32 aka worst OL in the league
2014 OL: Clearly Below-average, but improvement from '13 and probably closer to 20th best than 32nd
2014 Pass Protection >>> 2014 Run Blocking
I thought our weakness this year was definitely run blocking. We couldn't create any holes for our backs and our backs just weren't shifty enough to create on their own. We probably had the worst running game in the league. It was consistently awful.
I thought our pass pro was inconsistent. That Eagles game still bothers me. What they did to our OL that night was embarrassing. Our pass pro looked like dogshit in that game. And it looked pretty bad in others. But we also did balance those poor games with some strong pass pro games. Through the first 3-4 games, our pass pro was looking solid. We did a great job against that beastly Rams DL at the end of the season. Our pass pro had it's moments.
We still have a long way to go. I'd say the glass-half full approach is to focus on the fact that Richburg/Pugh were both mediocre last year, but have a lot of potential for growth due to their youth. If those 2 both jump a level, our entire OL would. The glass-half empty approach would focus on Beatty. Last year was a very good year from him but is he a guy you can count on to repeat his '14 form for next year? I like Beatty but he's a guy that I have a bit of trouble counting on.
So let's say they were around 20th, here are the likely incremental improvements this season:
-2nd year in system when they were clearly struggling early on
-Better health assuming some normalization to average
-Addition by subtraction: No more Walton, Jerry likely regulated as back-up
-Richburg no longer a rookie and playing at his more natural position of Center.
-Likely one plug and play high level starter added in top 2 rounds
When you add all those together, the line should be markedly better this year.
that shows Eli's average time to throw the ball compared to other QB's in the league. I bet it was horrible.
I don't think that's possible due to the different systems and passing concepts out there.
However to your point, I hope we get better in year 2. We will probably get rid of the ball quicker, or clear out and throw to our RBs especially Vareen. I expect us to continue to create room for Eli by roll out and sprint out calls moving the pocket so that we can take shots down the field in 5 and 7 step drops.
So we will see, I think if we stick to our game plan excluding the 1st Eagles game, where we somehow tried running 5 and 7 step drops, we will be fine.
Run blocking worries me a lot more than pass blocking if I had to pick.
Rely on statistics for sacks allowed to judge the performance of the line? They don't take into account how many times Eli was hit or forced to throw under duress or couldn't step into his throws. They also don't account for teams like the Jags, Titans, and Redskins who had anemic pas rushes. Might the better performance towards the end of the year be due to the quality of the opponent. I don't have a dog in this fight but I'm sure the game fil is a much better barometer of the OL performance than statistics.
Giants gave up less sacks than Dallas. Not stating they're better - just disapproving your rhetoric.
If you look at stat sheets, you see the Giants and Eli, were only sacked 30 times, which means, statistically, only 8 other teams only gave up fewer sacks.....if the Giants had 3 more sacks, they would vault to 16th......
for the most part, who holds onto the ball longer, Eli or Romo? Just watch the two Giant games, especially the last one....
Stats without the proper context provide an incomplete picture. How quickly the MacAdoo offense gets the ball out needs to be factored into offensive line performance in passing situations. The eyeball test indicates it is among the fastest times in the league from snap to release. We were 15th in 3rd down pass percentage(43.5%) when protection is critical to converting first downs.
The rushing attack was worse. We ranked 29th in YPC(3.6) and 30th in short yardage situations(2 or less). That's unacceptable imo. A successful ground game impacts time of possession. Having the ball keeps our defense off the field.
You can separate pass blocking and run blocking on a stat sheet but not on the field during the game. They go hand in hand. It is a symbiotic relationship. They rely on one another, feed off each other. As an overall unit our offensive line was bad.
Eli had a good statistical season but imo will need more from the guys around him if we expect to beat good teams . As a team working together to win ball games we failed. Having an average pass protecting unit in a vacuum is meaningless. Our offense line play needs to improve in both phases if we want to compete for titles imo.
I hate the "the stats have to viewed in context" stuff when the stats don't say what they want them to say. Stats should always be viewed in context. Even something as simple as counting the number of yards a running back gains in a season needs context. More games per season, rule changes about lining up in the middle of the field, etc...
If you only ask for context when the stats don't explicitly support your points then it makes you a hypocrite and we go through that nonsense on this board too often.
Stats aren't the be all end all. They have limited application depending on the point they are asked to support.
If you want to know how many yards a guy rushed for go to the stat sheet no problem. If you want to draw conclusions concerning the quality of the time your QB has to deliver the ball sacks aren't going to give you the full picture.
Not too hard to understand the limitations of stats and their utilization in context. I hope that clears it up for you.
We were 15th in 3rd down pass percentage(43.5%) when protection is critical to converting first downs.
Considering the injuries to the oline, the lack of a third down back, and how many games the team did not have either of it's top two recievers (Cruz and Beckham missed a combined 14 games), that actually not bad for a makeshift line with three of the five spots playing together for the first time.
Finally, the meme that the Giants didn't give up a lot of sacks because they threw so many short passes didn't pass the eyeball test for me. So I did some digging and finally found something on a free site that would help disprove that. Pro-football reference breaks down how many deep passes a team throws in each game. I'm not sure what their measurement for a deep pass is but as you can see, after the bye, the Giants threw more deep passes in each game but three. The Washington, Jaguar, and Dallas games.
By my count the offensive line only gave up 14 sacks in those games. That 14 sacks in the last nine games. But somehow that's all on Eli and the offensive game plan.
Even with "context" the stats don't back that point of view up. Link - ( New Window )
wrong attachment possibly? We'll agree to disagree no matter how many illusory stats you headline. When you start cherry picking minutiae from stat lines it's clear you've grown desperate.
As for injuries barring Schwartz situation we had most of our guys in the lineup all year. And given the length of Schwartz unavailability the lack of quality talent as a whole was clearly evident. John Jerry? Or Charles Brown when Pugh was out a couple of games. Unacceptable. This is the NFL you're roster must be able to absorb some attrition and maintain it's performance. Our offensive line failed to do so. What has changed? Brett Jones? Newhouse? We can and have to do better.
and improved the O-line's stats. There were games last year when the pass pro was awful, and games when it was very solid.
But the big factor that is often overlooked in this is Eli himself. He is one of the best in the league at sliding in the pocket to avoid pressure and find a passing lane. That doesn't show up on the stat sheet.
RE: The new McAdoo offense helped cut down on sacks
But the big factor that is often overlooked in this is Eli himself. He is one of the best in the league at sliding in the pocket to avoid pressure and find a passing lane. That doesn't show up on the stat sheet.
Agreed but any top quality QB has to be able to do this..
As I quoted from FO, sack avoidance is a QB skill and often has very
little to with mobility (at least in a mobile = less sacks way).
"Context for stats" in this case should be "sacks are a proven superficial, flawed way to argue OL quality; I'm better than that."
Re: Dallas. I don't have the exact number on my at the moment, but Romo held the ball longer in 2014 (which likely contributed, honestly, to his lowest turnover rate); that's why his sacks/hits were higher, despite having a better OL and fewer drop backs. It's not some puzzle.
Giants were like 4th in sacks - they had a lot of sacks but watching them I would not consider their pass rush as dominating. Just threw that the Jags sack numbers as an fyi.
Sometimes it comes down to the 1 on 1 matchups. you can even have a good OLine and an average pass rush and wind up giving up sacks and pressures. If memory serves JPP had a pretty good game against Smith and the cowboys.
Arnie, stats are stats. Pro bowl is a popularity contest . So much of the football world believes only what the media tells them .
This year if the media comes out and says the Giants o-line is one of the best in the league, 80% of the football world will believe it's true.
Fact is Eli threw the ball a lot last season , and teams knew he was going to do so . They blitzed heavy or dropped extra men back in coverage , and yet eli stayed upright more than most. We were a very one dementional team last year , this oline could have done much worse.
2014 OL: Clearly Below-average, but improvement from '13 and probably closer to 20th best than 32nd
2014 Pass Protection >>> 2014 Run Blocking
I thought our weakness this year was definitely run blocking. We couldn't create any holes for our backs and our backs just weren't shifty enough to create on their own. We probably had the worst running game in the league. It was consistently awful.
I thought our pass pro was inconsistent. That Eagles game still bothers me. What they did to our OL that night was embarrassing. Our pass pro looked like dogshit in that game. And it looked pretty bad in others. But we also did balance those poor games with some strong pass pro games. Through the first 3-4 games, our pass pro was looking solid. We did a great job against that beastly Rams DL at the end of the season. Our pass pro had it's moments.
We still have a long way to go. I'd say the glass-half full approach is to focus on the fact that Richburg/Pugh were both mediocre last year, but have a lot of potential for growth due to their youth. If those 2 both jump a level, our entire OL would. The glass-half empty approach would focus on Beatty. Last year was a very good year from him but is he a guy you can count on to repeat his '14 form for next year? I like Beatty but he's a guy that I have a bit of trouble counting on.
It happens..The year(2008) we started out 11-1 we went into the house of the pathetic Browns who were 0-4(?) or whatever their record was and they wiped the floor with us...Go through the schedule for most or every team and you'll see this crap go on, inexplicably, year after year, after year..
Beatty played much better last year......Thank you...McAdoo!
2014 OL: Clearly Below-average, but improvement from '13 and probably closer to 20th best than 32nd
2014 Pass Protection >>> 2014 Run Blocking
I thought our weakness this year was definitely run blocking. We couldn't create any holes for our backs and our backs just weren't shifty enough to create on their own. We probably had the worst running game in the league. It was consistently awful.
I thought our pass pro was inconsistent. That Eagles game still bothers me. What they did to our OL that night was embarrassing. Our pass pro looked like dogshit in that game. And it looked pretty bad in others. But we also did balance those poor games with some strong pass pro games. Through the first 3-4 games, our pass pro was looking solid. We did a great job against that beastly Rams DL at the end of the season. Our pass pro had it's moments.
We still have a long way to go. I'd say the glass-half full approach is to focus on the fact that Richburg/Pugh were both mediocre last year, but have a lot of potential for growth due to their youth. If those 2 both jump a level, our entire OL would. The glass-half empty approach would focus on Beatty. Last year was a very good year from him but is he a guy you can count on to repeat his '14 form for next year? I like Beatty but he's a guy that I have a bit of trouble counting on.
So let's say they were around 20th, here are the likely incremental improvements this season:
-2nd year in system when they were clearly struggling early on
-Better health assuming some normalization to average
-Addition by subtraction: No more Walton, Jerry likely regulated as back-up
-Richburg no longer a rookie and playing at his more natural position of Center.
-Likely one plug and play high level starter added in top 2 rounds
When you add all those together, the line should be markedly better this year.
I don't think that's possible due to the different systems and passing concepts out there.
However to your point, I hope we get better in year 2. We will probably get rid of the ball quicker, or clear out and throw to our RBs especially Vareen. I expect us to continue to create room for Eli by roll out and sprint out calls moving the pocket so that we can take shots down the field in 5 and 7 step drops.
So we will see, I think if we stick to our game plan excluding the 1st Eagles game, where we somehow tried running 5 and 7 step drops, we will be fine.
Run blocking worries me a lot more than pass blocking if I had to pick.
All from his back !!!
If you look at stat sheets, you see the Giants and Eli, were only sacked 30 times, which means, statistically, only 8 other teams only gave up fewer sacks.....if the Giants had 3 more sacks, they would vault to 16th......
for the most part, who holds onto the ball longer, Eli or Romo? Just watch the two Giant games, especially the last one....
The rushing attack was worse. We ranked 29th in YPC(3.6) and 30th in short yardage situations(2 or less). That's unacceptable imo. A successful ground game impacts time of possession. Having the ball keeps our defense off the field.
You can separate pass blocking and run blocking on a stat sheet but not on the field during the game. They go hand in hand. It is a symbiotic relationship. They rely on one another, feed off each other. As an overall unit our offensive line was bad.
Eli had a good statistical season but imo will need more from the guys around him if we expect to beat good teams . As a team working together to win ball games we failed. Having an average pass protecting unit in a vacuum is meaningless. Our offense line play needs to improve in both phases if we want to compete for titles imo.
If you only ask for context when the stats don't explicitly support your points then it makes you a hypocrite and we go through that nonsense on this board too often.
If you want to know how many yards a guy rushed for go to the stat sheet no problem. If you want to draw conclusions concerning the quality of the time your QB has to deliver the ball sacks aren't going to give you the full picture.
Not too hard to understand the limitations of stats and their utilization in context. I hope that clears it up for you.
Considering the injuries to the oline, the lack of a third down back, and how many games the team did not have either of it's top two recievers (Cruz and Beckham missed a combined 14 games), that actually not bad for a makeshift line with three of the five spots playing together for the first time.
Finally, the meme that the Giants didn't give up a lot of sacks because they threw so many short passes didn't pass the eyeball test for me. So I did some digging and finally found something on a free site that would help disprove that. Pro-football reference breaks down how many deep passes a team throws in each game. I'm not sure what their measurement for a deep pass is but as you can see, after the bye, the Giants threw more deep passes in each game but three. The Washington, Jaguar, and Dallas games.
By my count the offensive line only gave up 14 sacks in those games. That 14 sacks in the last nine games. But somehow that's all on Eli and the offensive game plan.
Even with "context" the stats don't back that point of view up.
Link - ( New Window )
As for injuries barring Schwartz situation we had most of our guys in the lineup all year. And given the length of Schwartz unavailability the lack of quality talent as a whole was clearly evident. John Jerry? Or Charles Brown when Pugh was out a couple of games. Unacceptable. This is the NFL you're roster must be able to absorb some attrition and maintain it's performance. Our offensive line failed to do so. What has changed? Brett Jones? Newhouse? We can and have to do better.
But the big factor that is often overlooked in this is Eli himself. He is one of the best in the league at sliding in the pocket to avoid pressure and find a passing lane. That doesn't show up on the stat sheet.
But the big factor that is often overlooked in this is Eli himself. He is one of the best in the league at sliding in the pocket to avoid pressure and find a passing lane. That doesn't show up on the stat sheet.
Agreed but any top quality QB has to be able to do this..
"Context for stats" in this case should be "sacks are a proven superficial, flawed way to argue OL quality; I'm better than that."
Re: Dallas. I don't have the exact number on my at the moment, but Romo held the ball longer in 2014 (which likely contributed, honestly, to his lowest turnover rate); that's why his sacks/hits were higher, despite having a better OL and fewer drop backs. It's not some puzzle.
Sometimes it comes down to the 1 on 1 matchups. you can even have a good OLine and an average pass rush and wind up giving up sacks and pressures. If memory serves JPP had a pretty good game against Smith and the cowboys.