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If cooper and white are gone by 9..

ANGPASS : 4/4/2015 9:58 am
I want sherff or shelton. Neither are sexy picks, but we don't need sexy right now. OBJ was the sexy pick last year. Now, we need a boring and ugly pick. The last few years, we have not been able to stop the run or establish the run. To me, the WRs are the best players in the draft, but either sherf, who is a nasty player or Shelton, who is a game changing DT would make others better around them.

If we draft Scherf:
Mauler, physical, nasty lineman.
Help out with the run game which leads to more productive PA.
Eli can have more time in the pocket
line is set for the next 3 years

If we draft shelton:
We can put teams in third and long situations more often
match up with dallas and eagles Olines
Also get after the qb.

Either way, we still need big time help in the trenches. The picks are boring but the production of the unit will improve tremendously. I really think we need that more than anything else.

as for the second round, i am sure we could get a good wr or a stud MLB like denzel perriman.
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Oops, didn't complete the post.  
Big Blue '56 : 4/4/2015 11:14 am : link
I guess what I'm asking is this: The Saints giving up a 3 to move up 4 spots would net them a 3-4er that wouldn't fall to them at 13?
RE: Jay  
Jay on the Island : 4/4/2015 11:16 am : link
In comment 12217316 YANKEE28 said:
Quote:
some of the moves by the Saints have been caused by them being in CAP hell, more than "rebuilding". Right now, they don't have enough CAP space to sign the 9 players they are scheduled to draft.

Things will change, but dollars are currently driving a number of Saints roster decisions.


Yeah the cap has a lot to do with it but trading Kenny Stills for a 3rd and cap dump Ellerbe wasn't a move to get rid of cap space. Stills is on a rookie contract and had a very solid year for the Saints.
BTW Jay  
YANKEE28 : 4/4/2015 11:20 am : link
Armstead was a 3rd round pick by the Saints
I'm confused by these calls for Shelton  
SirYesSir : 4/4/2015 11:21 am : link
The Giants have made it pretty clear they like taking DTs, but rarely in round one. There recent picks of Cofield, Joseph, and Hankins were I believe a 4, a 2, and a 2. The last first rounder I remember them taking was William Joseph, and we know how that turned out.

I would be very surprised to see them break their trend this year on that front.
RE: BTW Jay  
Jay on the Island : 4/4/2015 11:22 am : link
In comment 12217326 YANKEE28 said:
Quote:
Armstead was a 3rd round pick by the Saints

You are right my bad I thought he was a 2nd for some reason.
Giants won't draft beasly  
ANGPASS : 4/4/2015 11:23 am : link
he is too similar to kennard. Giants won't draft gregory because of the failed drug test. I would love gregory but they won't. Ellis is not the clear cut answer. he is good depth.

I do believe there is a big need on both lines.
1) we need to run the ball better and need that 5th starter.
2) we need either a beast DT to go with hankins to stop the run or we need a stud pass rusher.

As unattractive as it sounds, i wouldn't mind if the first 3 rounds are OL, DT, DE or LB. we need to solidify the damn trenches. we need to control the game. we have skill players on the outside between corners and receivers. team needs to greatly improve in the run department on both sides.
This is the first year I can remember  
Jerry's Kids : 4/4/2015 11:26 am : link
When an O-lineman isn't projected in the top 5- 7 picks. Just strange to me...
BB56  
YANKEE28 : 4/4/2015 11:27 am : link
You have 5 "elite" players that will (IMO) do best in a 3-4.

Some could fall to 9, but might not fall to 13 (Fowler, Beasley, Gregory, Ray, and Shelton). If the Saints have their eyes on one of these players, and clearly 1-2 of them will be around at 9, it is at least possible.
I am all for a trade down  
Jay on the Island : 4/4/2015 11:31 am : link
if Cooper and White are gone especially if it is only 4-5 spots. The Giants could still come away with either Peat, Collins, Scherff, Flowers, Dupree, etc.
RE: BB56  
Big Blue '56 : 4/4/2015 11:34 am : link
In comment 12217340 YANKEE28 said:
Quote:
You have 5 "elite" players that will (IMO) do best in a 3-4.

Some could fall to 9, but might not fall to 13 (Fowler, Beasley, Gregory, Ray, and Shelton). If the Saints have their eyes on one of these players, and clearly 1-2 of them will be around at 9, it is at least possible.


Ok, thanks
Draft Gregory  
nybeast : 4/4/2015 1:04 pm : link
His talent and ability supersedes questions about marijuana. He's the best DE prospect period in this year's draft. Not only will he make an immediate impact for this team, his ceiling is highest imho of all defensive players in this draft. If he's there at 9, you can't pass on him. Again, we have a hole at safety because we don't have Will Hill. Justin Houston, Randy Moss, Warren Sapp, etc. all point to not passing on can't miss talent. How many times do we have to see that played out? Draft Randy Gregory if he somehow falls because of "concerns" about marijuana.
Cooper and White will be gone  
averagejoe : 4/4/2015 1:14 pm : link
Nobody wants to miss out on the next OBJ. I don't think any of the OL's are top ten picks but Giants will have to reach and pick the one they like best.

NO DT at nine please.
Cooper  
Fish : 4/4/2015 1:29 pm : link
White or Beasley in this order for me. If the wide ours are gone then Beasley should be there, no brainer.
AngPass  
Coach Mason : 4/4/2015 1:39 pm : link
Parker may have the highest upside of the 3. But don't know enough about his character. Love his ability and he will be a monster n the NFL level if he WANTS it.

Gregory is too good to pass up IMO unless they don't think he is ready to grow up.

Beasley is interesting but only if they feel he can play both LB and DE on pass downs.

Dupree is very wel rounded and a freak but very raw as a pass-rusher.

I probably take all those guys before an quality OL that we could still get at 40.
the shelton hype happens every year  
area junc : 4/4/2015 2:04 pm : link
he's a 34 NT without any real special measurables. he will slide just like 34 NTs almost always do

(just like G's - you can find guys to do that job later)
Why Not La'el Collins?  
Trainmaster : 4/4/2015 2:15 pm : link
I don't watch much college FB, but some of the videos show him blowing people off the line are really impressive. What's the knock on him at #9?
The way this draft is setting up we're going to pick Scherff imo...  
Torrag : 4/4/2015 2:24 pm : link
..if we're lucky enough that he's still available.

DFJ/Beasley/Cooper/White all gone.

Gregory out consideration for drug risks.

Scherff/Shelton is the next tier. Scherff is the pick.



Or Flowers  
Big Blue '56 : 4/4/2015 2:40 pm : link
if they really value him far more than BBIers do
BB56  
YANKEE28 : 4/4/2015 3:01 pm : link
the great Giants O Line unknown is with Pugh. The Giants, and even Gilbride have all made slight mention of Pugh moving to left guard.

If the Giants plan all along is to move Pugh to left guard, then Flowers could be the pick. I think he is going to be a Pro Bowl right tackle.

And Newhouse could be the short term backup plan at RT if Flowers is not ready to start Day One.
Any plan that deliberately puts Newhouse on the field...  
Torrag : 4/4/2015 3:04 pm : link
...needs serious re-thinking imo.

The Giants have been seen at many of the top OL workouts. Peat and Flowers to name two. I don't read anything into that except we need better players on the O-line. I don't see us passing on Scherff if he is there.
Would you guys be ok if Cooper and White are  
Big Blue '56 : 4/4/2015 3:10 pm : link
gone and they pick Parker at 9?
torrag  
YANKEE28 : 4/4/2015 3:13 pm : link
this isn't a plan to "deliberately" put Newhouse on the field.

The plan is to have Flowers start Day One at RT if he is taken at # 9 and keep the position as he becomes a Pro Bowl player.
I think the Flowers at #9 talk is off base  
Torrag : 4/4/2015 3:53 pm : link
Guy is raw. As in steak tartar raw. Footwork is a mess. Kick slide is a mess. Off balance in his pass sets. Right now he's all run blocking and potential. He's a natural bender and plays with good leverage. Very strong and a mauler in the ground game. When he's attacking he wins. Aggressive mindset. I get all that but he really needs technique work.

Rumors about who the Giants rank highly are out there but two weeks ago when Ross was at Stanford the rumor was we were high on Peat. If we go OL #9 and he's available I think Scherff will be the pick.
RE: I think the Flowers at #9 talk is off base  
Coach Mason : 4/4/2015 5:09 pm : link
In comment 12217588 Torrag said:
Quote:
Guy is raw. As in steak tartar raw. Footwork is a mess. Kick slide is a mess. Off balance in his pass sets. Right now he's all run blocking and potential. He's a natural bender and plays with good leverage. Very strong and a mauler in the ground game. When he's attacking he wins. Aggressive mindset. I get all that but he really needs technique work.

Rumors about who the Giants rank highly are out there but two weeks ago when Ross was at Stanford the rumor was we were high on Peat. If we go OL #9 and he's available I think Scherff will be the pick.


Agreed. Big upside but not a guy you want to plug in at RT day one. Giants don't have luxury or roster to slowly groom a top 10 pick, he needs to be an immediate return on investment.
RE: Why Not La'el Collins?  
Giants2012 : 4/4/2015 5:28 pm : link
In comment 12217509 Trainmaster said:
Quote:
I don't watch much college FB, but some of the videos show him blowing people off the line are really impressive. What's the knock on him at #9?


ding ding ding - winner.

Hoping for Collins or Scheff #1
Shelton  
blue42 : 4/4/2015 8:48 pm : link
can play the run and does play side to side and can get to the qb. The 40 time is silly. We were just awful playing the run and have to play Philly and Dallas twice.

You can make a very good case for Shelton.
if those two WRs aren't available,  
SHO'NUFF : 4/4/2015 10:52 pm : link
we can still pick up quality WRs in the 2nd. I would not be mad at picking an OL @ #9...I'm not sold on our line to be average at either pass blocking or run blocking.
RE: if those two WRs aren't available,  
Giants2012 : 4/4/2015 10:57 pm : link
In comment 12218001 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
we can still pick up quality WRs in the 2nd. I would not be mad at picking an OL @ #9...I'm not sold on our line to be average at either pass blocking or run blocking.


It appears their are a lot of quality receivers in this draft with fewer OL. Not sure what the sense of urgency is with going WR in Round 1 when thr OL stinks.
Again - trying to add a touch of reality to some of the musings  
Bob in Newburgh : 4/5/2015 9:33 am : link
Barring injury - Ellis is a better pro DT in 2015 than Shelton.

Claims that Shelton can get to the QB in the NFL are disingenuous.

You want to waste the #9 on a redundancy in 2015 - take Shelton.

RE: Again - trying to add a touch of reality to some of the musings  
LauderdaleMatty : 4/5/2015 9:48 am : link
In comment 12218253 Bob in Newburgh said:
Quote:
Barring injury - Ellis is a better pro DT in 2015 than Shelton.

Claims that Shelton can get to the QB in the NFL are disingenuous.

You want to waste the #9 on a redundancy in 2015 - take Shelton.


You could probably say the same about White and Cooper vs Randle.

All of this is suppositon. Every year some of the xant miss guys fall off and other guys kot nearly as touted show up.

I do t want Shelton as IMO as he playes the exact postion that
hankins playes. Even a WR whom I think is superfluous at 9 is a better choice.

Most of these players grades most likely So similar it's really down to need and fit. And saying the OL isn't the biggest need when there isn't a single guy on the whole offensive line that will even sniff the probowl in the next few years OL may be the best pick even if some of the other players are rated slightly higher

I keep praying Beasley slides but it's doubtful. the only group more aversge or worse is linebacker and he could be used in a lot of wAys.
The reason we apparently let LinJo walk  
Big Blue '56 : 4/5/2015 9:53 am : link
was that we felt Hankins played the same position with a higher upside..If true, then I would imagine, if Shelton plays the same position as Hankins, then he won't be our pick if he falls to us..
Can Shelton play the 3-Gap?  
Giants2012 : 4/5/2015 9:58 am : link
It's not even being mentioned. Ngata's demonstrated he's one of the few very large DLinemen who doesn't lose power when his first step is forward, otherwise, the Wilfork, Li Joseph, etc's first step at the 0-1 is up. Can Shelton be a 3 Gap player? Not even sure sure Ellis can play the 3-Gap to be honest.
Only know what I read on BBI  
jLefty : 4/5/2015 2:34 pm : link
but while I'm all in for a WR, it seems if we go OT in one we can get a good WR in 40. If it's WR in one there are starter OT's in the 40 hole.
people seem to overlook the lack of pass rush last season  
Jersey55 : 4/6/2015 10:32 am : link
if we can't get one of the premier WRs or if Sherff is gone then we need to take one of the excellent pass rushers who would still be available
Picking a DT at #9 would be an off the grid pick for NYG  
JonC : 4/6/2015 10:46 am : link
NYG puts the DL premium on DE, both in terms of football impact and cap dollars. DT isn't top 5 among their premium positions.

Factor in the historically high bust rate in the top 15 for DTs, and the belief he's better suited to 3-4 NT, and I just don't see them drafting Shelton.

I had these similar exchanges a year ago regarding Donald, and never heard his name once in the back channels. Same this year, nothing on Shelton.
I'm hearing that Shelton is similar to Hankins.  
Big Blue '56 : 4/6/2015 10:51 am : link
If so, my desire to take him was misguided..If the Giants let go of LinJo who was viewed similar to Hankins and they chose not to re-sign him, why would they draft Shelton if he's similar to Hankins?
I think there's some DT changes going on  
JonC : 4/6/2015 10:59 am : link
Hankins is more of the 1-tech quick pass rusher than expected, whereas LJ or Shelton would be your 3-tech and his role is to eat and occupy blockers to free up the LBs, etc.
Signing Ellis at the 3-tech won't preclude them from  
JonC : 4/6/2015 11:03 am : link
potentially adding a better DT, but doing so at #9 would be off the grid for them. Their history indicates they will seek value in their DTs be it drafting one that slips to the 2nd round, or an Ellis that has significant potential but has been unable to unseat some strong competition on the NYJ, and a contract that is value heavy for them.

When I think of a 3 tech, I think of Tommy Kelly(in his prime)  
Big Blue '56 : 4/6/2015 11:06 am : link
with his agility and speed..Not sure LinJo had those skillsets..

I think LinJo was more similar to Hankins than a Kelly, no?
John Randle also springs to mind  
Big Blue '56 : 4/6/2015 11:09 am : link
.
3-tech is your bigger dude  
JonC : 4/6/2015 11:10 am : link
His job is to occupy space and blockers, close gaps, free up LBs, push the pocket back into the QB. That was LJ. He was big and agile for his size, but his size and power were the keys.

Your 1-tech is shading the shoulder of his OL, trying to beat him and split the gap to reach the QB. He's the quicker DT, more athletic, the penetrator.
RE: 3-tech is your bigger dude  
Giants2012 : 4/6/2015 11:11 am : link
In comment 12219233 JonC said:
Quote:
His job is to occupy space and blockers, close gaps, free up LBs, push the pocket back into the QB. That was LJ. He was big and agile for his size, but his size and power were the keys.

Your 1-tech is shading the shoulder of his OL, trying to beat him and split the gap to reach the QB. He's the quicker DT, more athletic, the penetrator.


3-tech is a "bigger dude" than the 1?
Generally, yes  
JonC : 4/6/2015 11:14 am : link
LJ, Canty, Cofield, Keith Hamilton, etc.

doesn't make sense Jon..Just looked up on PFF after your comments  
Big Blue '56 : 4/6/2015 11:14 am : link
and I found this:

Quote:
Probably the most well known of the defensive techniques, the 3-technique lines up shaded to the guard’s outside shoulder, ready to shoot the B-gap on his side of the formation. Various line shifts and defensive schemes have been developed with the express purpose of getting the 3-technique the most beneficial situation possible, which is why guys like Warren Sapp, John Randle, Keith Millard and now Ndamukong Suh have been able to rack-up sack numbers.

The 4-3 Under front, discussed in our article on Hybrid defenses, was designed to isolate the weak side guard 1-on-1 with the 3-technique (or under) tackle. This player’s job is to penetrate the line of scrimmage through his B-gap and disrupt plays in the backfield, whether pass or run. Unlike the first two tackle positions, the 3-technique relies far more on speed and agility than brute strength.
RE: Generally, yes  
Giants2012 : 4/6/2015 11:15 am : link
In comment 12219241 JonC said:
Quote:
LJ, Canty, Cofield, Keith Hamilton, etc.


You mean taller? He's not heavier usually. That 1-tech is the heavy set player whose first step is up rather than the 3-tech which is forward. That's kinda why I'm curious is Ellis was really signed as depth for Hankins with Bromley, Jenkins and Kuhn (until somebody else is drafted) at #3.
Reverse my comments, gents  
JonC : 4/6/2015 11:16 am : link
Monday Morning and trying to type while on a conference call, I was backwards.
Thanks Jon,  
Big Blue '56 : 4/6/2015 11:17 am : link
I thought I lost my mind..:)
RE: 3-tech is your bigger dude  
Giants2012 : 4/6/2015 11:18 am : link
In comment 12219233 JonC said:
Quote:
His job is to occupy space and blockers, close gaps, free up LBs, push the pocket back into the QB. That was LJ. He was big and agile for his size, but his size and power were the keys.

Your 1-tech is shading the shoulder of his OL, trying to beat him and split the gap to reach the QB. He's the quicker DT, more athletic, the penetrator.


LJ was a 1-tech. Not a 3. The 1-tech is usually the slower. You have it backwards.
No worries :)  
Giants2012 : 4/6/2015 11:19 am : link
:)
Medic!  
JonC : 4/6/2015 11:20 am : link
Caffeine!
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