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Edge rusher discussion - NFL radio

Pep22 : 4/9/2015 9:20 am
w/ Greg Cosell.

Fowler - he regarded him as the best edge rusher but unsure of whether he could play DE in a 4-3. Common theme for all of these guys. Impressed w his flexibility given size.

Ray - called him a "Kamikaze" guy who is super competitive. Thought he'd measure bigger. Thinks he's a 7-9 sack guy minimum. Gives rare effort. Seemed to think his play strength was better than Beasley. Poo/poo'd workout results and suggested it was more due to toe injury. Said he'd likely remain as a hand in the dirt guy.

Beasley - tremendous athlete but questioned play strength. Said if he doesn't beat you immediately, he won't beat you at all. Also said he would struggle in a power battle i.e. vs run. Still, if he can wreek havoic on the 60% of the plays he's in there, there's plenty of value.

Gregory - didn't comment on drug situation only film. Said he's an outrageous athlete, more impressive than Clowney though obviously lighter. Questioned him on the fact that he tends to be late after snap of ball.

Dupree - Tremendous athlete but not yet a natural pass rusher. Thought he might be more of a Jamie Collins type than a pure DE (which his size would suggest).
I agree Ray's toe injury had impact on his workout preparations  
Torrag : 4/9/2015 9:32 am : link
If he was a little better at his Pro Day there would be more people projecting him to the Giants imo. He's a bit of a wild card at #9. If Cooper/Beasley/DFJ/White/Scherff are off the board he could be in play in a serious way.
IMO  
Big Rick in FL : 4/9/2015 9:41 am : link
You can't pass up on a guy who has better film then Clowney at 9. Who has the frame to put on more weight. He's put on a ton of weight since the off-season began. He should have no problem getting to 260.
He should have no problem getting to 260.  
Torrag : 4/9/2015 9:43 am : link
There is no evidence to support this. You pulled that out of thin air.
I'd project Beasley and Ray as possibles for NYG  
JonC : 4/9/2015 9:43 am : link
but I'd be surprised if they picked one, it's a gamble on fit and usability with a pick this high.
I  
AcidTest : 4/9/2015 9:47 am : link
still say Beasley, Ray, and Gregory fit best in a 3-4, not a 4-3.

But there is nothing that would convince me to take Gregory. He's been busted for weed several times, including at the combine, the most important professional interview of his life. It doesn't matter if the NFL policy against pot is stupid or not. All that matters is that it's the policy. Way too much of a risk at #9.
Jon,  
Big Blue '56 : 4/9/2015 9:52 am : link
Knowing the Giants playmaker tendencies or inclinations, if Beasley is there, I believe they'll pull the trigger..

Have you heard even a modicum of noise about him within Giants Central?
Damn Torrag  
Big Rick in FL : 4/9/2015 9:52 am : link
Idk what I did for you to not like me, but you really sound like an immature little bitch. Holy hell. It's a fucking message board. People have different opinions. Grow a sack.

I'm going off that he alledgedly weighed around 220 in his last game with Nebraska. Is up to 245 as of last week according to him. He's 6'5 and he's young. With an NFL weight training program he should have no problem putting on those 15 pounds. Similar to how JPP put on 20+ pounds when he hit the NFL or similar to how a lot of these guys put on weight in an NFL weight training program. He certainly has the frame to do it.
RE: He should have no problem getting to 260.  
Coach Mason : 4/9/2015 9:54 am : link
In comment 12224537 Torrag said:
Quote:
There is no evidence to support this. You pulled that out of thin air.


Playing at that almost that weight previously (255) is not enough evidence?

Apparently his type of frame can handle up to 265-270.

Giants have many specialists they consult when projecting these things as well.Tucks weight gain worked out pretty well I would say.
JonC  
Torrag : 4/9/2015 9:54 am : link
I agree before we picked a Beasley or Ray there would have to be a serious organizational discussion. You can't pick them without an internal commitment to being flexible in your schemes to utilize them. If you're going to try and force a square peg in a round hole we should pick someone else. That said I don't see why that conversation can't happen. You'd hate to think we would pass on the best player because we can't adapt as a coaching staff. It works for Von Miller, Bruce Irvin and others so why not us.
Rick  
Torrag : 4/9/2015 9:59 am : link
I didn't attack you or call you names. Get a grip. When I look at Gregory I see a thin framed athlete. I question if he can add that much weight effectively. Time will tell.

Coach where did you get that he played at 250# plus I haven't seen that anywhere. If that's true I'd re-asses. Thanks.
Coach Mason  
Big Rick in FL : 4/9/2015 10:01 am : link
He doesn't like me for whatever reason. So he is going to disagree with anything I say.
I don't see  
Bones : 4/9/2015 10:01 am : link
Beasley in our system. I think Ray is the best player in the draft for a 3-4 team, and while He might grow into a 4-3 DE some day, I wouldn't chance it at #9. Dupree makes the most sense if we go DE in the first.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 4/9/2015 10:04 am : link
I'd love a talent like Gregory on the team. I don't see why he can't get to 265.

Plenty of players gain 20-25 pounds once they get acclimated to an NFL regiment.
Rick it's not personal  
Torrag : 4/9/2015 10:04 am : link
As I've noted on your posts I agree with some of the things you've put out there. I've heard that Gregory played in the 220# range. He was 235# at the Combine. He's long but lean. 260# is a big jump.
I watched one analysis of Gregory that attributed  
SwirlingEddie : 4/9/2015 10:05 am : link
his slow snap reaction to the fact he was asked to play 'tackle read' at his position most of the time, rather than upfield burst like many of the other players mentioned. Tackle read allows the Defender to respond to the Tackle's first step or action in order to adjust to the play more effectively.
Here's a link  
Big Rick in FL : 4/9/2015 10:11 am : link
To a coach saying he played anywhere from 230-255, but I pulled 260 out of thin air.
He's played at 255.  
BrettNYG10 : 4/9/2015 10:13 am : link
The body is still maturing in the early 20's, adding 10 pounds to that isn't difficult with the proper training. I don't see his size as a concern.
He was 242 at his Pro Day  
Big Rick in FL : 4/9/2015 10:14 am : link
Read an interview with him that said he was at 245 last week. Sorry here's the link.
Randy Gregory weight - ( New Window )
BB56  
JonC : 4/9/2015 10:19 am : link
Zero, but I also know for a fact that they're working harder than usual to secure any info leaks.

Deploying Beasley (or Ray) means a paradigm shift for NYG, as neither player is a full-time 4-3 DE. So, then you're deploying him part-time in Elephant looks (how Spags tried to use Kiwanuka in the past), or trying to do so in a Von Miller-type deployment (paradigm shift). Both players would fail to be maximized as a pure 4-3 WILL, imo.

Torrag, absolutely it will have been discussed, too important to not complete their due diligence. If they have any inkling it's not a maximum utilization, I too would rather they go OT (or WR if one falls).

RE: Gregory  
JonC : 4/9/2015 10:21 am : link
He's a non-issue with three failed drug tests following him into the NFL.
With Fowler gone  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 4/9/2015 10:46 am : link
Gregory is the only one of those remaining guys that I would want. Too many 3-4 guys. I know Dupree has his fans here, but watching the games on Draft Breakdown, I just don't see where he is that special.
I know the pot tests  
Big Rick in FL : 4/9/2015 10:46 am : link
Are a big deal and if it was the old rules I'd agree he probably isn't in the discussion. If he stays clean for 90 days then he starts back at step 1 just like every other player that didn't fail a drug test.

That combined with him being one of the only top pass rushers who fit the Giants 34+ inch arms & 10+ inch hands makes me believe he's in play. Also his athleticism is off the charts. He's far more athletic & polished then JPP was. The Giants value DEs at the very top outside of QB. If the Giants see his film like Cosell does and they think he is a better athlete & has better film you have to give strong consideration to him at 9. If Clowney failed a piss test and was there at 9 would everybody on this board want him? YES! If Gregory didn't fail a piss test I don't see anyway of him even having a chance to be there at 9.

Obviously the Giants would have to do a lot of research, but I can't see how anybody can say he's not in play.
second tier  
Pep22 : 4/9/2015 10:48 am : link
guys:

Double 0 - of UCLA, physically gifted, plays maniacal style (in a good way), somewhat raw, and two hip surgeries are of concern in terms of long term health

Preston Smith - Loved what I saw of him in Senior Bolw practices. More of a traditional DE, size wise and attention to stopping the run game.

Dannielle Hunter - Similar size and on field traits as Gregory. Not quite as gifted.

Nate Orchard - Productive as hell and there is no denying his maturity and work ethic, but really looked ordinary at the combine.
Three failed tests plus the Will Hill Experience  
JonC : 4/9/2015 10:49 am : link
Do you think NYG would be inclined to risk the #9 pick on such a player? Especially one that appears significantly better suited to 3-4 OLB? I'd wager it's doubtful.

I'll be pissed off if they take the gamble on him.

RE: He should have no problem getting to 260.  
chris r : 4/9/2015 10:50 am : link
In comment 12224537 Torrag said:
Quote:
There is no evidence to support this. You pulled that out of thin air.


It doesn't matter. 260 is arbitrary we can all list excellent 4-3 REs who played at less than 260.
Second Tier  
JonC : 4/9/2015 10:53 am : link
I really like Odi and Preston for NYG, they fit the profile for an NYG 4-3 DE. Orchard is a bit undersized but plays with big hustle, heart, and technique. Would be pleased to bring him onboard, but I think he might wind up with a 3-4 team.

Hunter has the physical tools, but it a bit lacking in demonstrated football. He'd be a gamble on upside, but one they might take if Odi and Preston are both gone.

RE: I know the pot tests  
Coach Mason : 4/9/2015 10:59 am : link
In comment 12224692 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
Are a big deal and if it was the old rules I'd agree he probably isn't in the discussion. If he stays clean for 90 days then he starts back at step 1 just like every other player that didn't fail a drug test.

That combined with him being one of the only top pass rushers who fit the Giants 34+ inch arms & 10+ inch hands makes me believe he's in play. Also his athleticism is off the charts. He's far more athletic & polished then JPP was. The Giants value DEs at the very top outside of QB. If the Giants see his film like Cosell does and they think he is a better athlete & has better film you have to give strong consideration to him at 9. If Clowney failed a piss test and was there at 9 would everybody on this board want him? YES! If Gregory didn't fail a piss test I don't see anyway of him even having a chance to be there at 9.

Obviously the Giants would have to do a lot of research, but I can't see how anybody can say he's not in play.


Good post. Agreed on all fronts. I fully acknowledge the pot stuff has to be explored and it will. I maybe in the minority but he strikes me as a kid ready to grow up.
RE: second tier  
Coach Mason : 4/9/2015 11:12 am : link
In comment 12224698 Pep22 said:
Quote:
guys:

Double 0 - of UCLA, physically gifted, plays maniacal style (in a good way), somewhat raw, and two hip surgeries are of concern in terms of long term health

Preston Smith - Loved what I saw of him in Senior Bolw practices. More of a traditional DE, size wise and attention to stopping the run game.

Dannielle Hunter - Similar size and on field traits as Gregory. Not quite as gifted.

Nate Orchard - Productive as hell and there is no denying his maturity and work ethic, but really looked ordinary at the combine.


Smith is the best of the group for the Giants. He had a stellar senior campaign and I think he had some amazing plays on specials too. Also fits the size/speed frame of what we look for in a 4-3 DE
RE: Three failed tests plus the Will Hill Experience  
AcidTest : 4/9/2015 11:13 am : link
In comment 12224703 JonC said:
Quote:
Do you think NYG would be inclined to risk the #9 pick on such a player? Especially one that appears significantly better suited to 3-4 OLB? I'd wager it's doubtful.

I'll be pissed off if they take the gamble on him.


^This. Throw in Hosley as well.
The whole marijuana and Gregory discussion is played out  
Torrag : 4/9/2015 11:26 am : link
At this point we all know the arguments for or against. People have made up their minds one way or another.

The fact is the NY Giants have never used such a high pick, not even close, on a player with the confirmed, documented troubles Gregory carries as a prospect. It's been an organizational philosophy for decades and there is no reason to believe that will change now.
RE: Three failed tests plus the Will Hill Experience  
Coach Mason : 4/9/2015 11:30 am : link
In comment 12224703 JonC said:
Quote:
Do you think NYG would be inclined to risk the #9 pick on such a player? Especially one that appears significantly better suited to 3-4 OLB? I'd wager it's doubtful.

I'll be pissed off if they take the gamble on him.


None of the edge rushers are a perfect fit in a traditional 4-3 defense.

However Gregory comes closest to the tall long armed angular types the Giants covet.

Further, Gregory has the most innate pass rush ability out of all the guys in my opinion.

Does the upside outweigh the risk? Peat might be 'safer' and I think he's the top OT on our board.

I see Peat, Gregory or one of the WRs as the best fits for what we look for at 9.

Besides,  
Big Blue '56 : 4/9/2015 11:30 am : link
who the hell fails THREE tests IN COLLEGE? True, I don't follow college ball, but I don't recall reading on here the last time that ever happened..

That's a huge flag imo..Not the pot, but the lack of concern about being found out..The indifference..
Manningham failed a test twice with the Wolverines, IIRC.  
BrettNYG10 : 4/9/2015 11:35 am : link
Which is a huge reason why he fell.
Gregory couldn't put on weight at Nebraska  
KWALL2 : 4/9/2015 11:36 am : link
They have an excellent strength program so why did he play at 220 last year.

He's an awful first round 4-3 DE prospect. Its not just the weight either. Cosell is way off on saying this guy is more impressive than Clowney. He got it the wrong way and its not close.
BB56  
Coach Mason : 4/9/2015 11:37 am : link
I acknowledge the risks and agree that Peat or one of the receivers check off the boxes with less overall flags.
RE: Manningham failed a test twice with the Wolverines, IIRC.  
chris r : 4/9/2015 11:37 am : link
In comment 12224856 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
Which is a huge reason why he fell.


Bradshaw had issues with weed too, if I recall. Those two are the better comparisons for the Gregory situation, not Hill and Hosley. Will Hill's issues were deeper than weed. Hosley's issue is that he sucks (hi Greg).
...  
BrettNYG10 : 4/9/2015 11:46 am : link
Chris, I don't remember issues in college, but Bradshaw was arrested a couple months back. I thought he had issues with stealing, but I could be wrong on all accounts.

I can definitely see the Giants avoiding higher risk players given the high position and recent draft issues (outside of the first round, where they've continued to be stellar).
This  
raever : 4/9/2015 12:04 pm : link
Quote:
The fact is the NY Giants have never used such a high pick, not even close, on a player with the confirmed, documented troubles Gregory carries as a prospect. It's been an organizational philosophy for decades and there is no reason to believe that will change now.


+1
KWALL  
Big Rick in FL : 4/9/2015 12:08 pm : link
Nebraska wanted him at that weight for whatever reason. He's at 245 now. Linked an article that said he weighed 255. So him gaining weight doesn't seem like a problem.

Will Hill was a completely different case. I've heard from people I know involved in Gators athletics that said he failed 15-20+ drug tests in college. I believe he was also arrested a few times.

No the Giants have never used a pick this high on a guy whose failed multiple drug tests, but that's probably because we've never had the opportunity to get such a good player with the failed tests. The Giants have never been afraid to take a guy because of off the field problems. Hosley, Manningham, Bradshaw, Hill & I'm sure there are others. Hill didn't work out because of off the field stuff. Hosley didn't work out because he just sucks. The other two were never in trouble for us.
love Ray  
djm : 4/9/2015 12:50 pm : link
hope the Giants love Ray too.
No thanks on Gregory  
djm : 4/9/2015 12:54 pm : link
NYG won't touch that risk at pick 9. They'd take a guy like that in RD 3.....maybe.
Gregory and pot use  
Jersey55 : 4/10/2015 10:46 am : link
Pot use is becoming more and more accepted around the country and it won't be very long at all before its allowed in the NFL and they will accept it because they won't have any choice...
RE: Second Tier  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 4/10/2015 11:38 am : link
In comment 12224711 JonC said:
Quote:
I really like Odi and Preston for NYG, they fit the profile for an NYG 4-3 DE. Orchard is a bit undersized but plays with big hustle, heart, and technique. Would be pleased to bring him onboard, but I think he might wind up with a 3-4 team.

Hunter has the physical tools, but it a bit lacking in demonstrated football. He'd be a gamble on upside, but one they might take if Odi and Preston are both gone.



What do you think of Za'darius Smith? 6'6" 270lbs. He could play inside or outside.
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