My reasons for switching my opinion came from seeing the man in action and not the caricature. That first really came out during the 2005 season and the deaths of Wellington Mara and than later Bob Tisch. I thought Coughlin did a fantastic job supporting the players and the franchise during that time - I remember the way the Giants came out and destroyed the Redskins that first week after Welly's death and how TC spoke about him. Of course, a couple of winning runs didn't hurt either.
I thought he was just another retread older old school coach.
I even thought he should have been fired after 2006.
I was completely wrong. TC has won me over. Though I wouldn't have fought for his job if Reese decided it was best to part ways. While I admit I was dead wrong on TC, I don't think he deserves a lifetime appointment as head coach.
I also didn't want to trade for Eli.
I didn't like the fact he refused to play for SD (I was critical of JD Drew for that Eric Lindros for that, and I would have been critical of Elway for it if I were old enough) and I thought the Giants gave up too much and would have been better off trading down with CLE? and picking Big Ben.
Anyway, I was wrong on Eli too and that took as long. I don't think I was truly a believer in Eli until the 2007 playoffs.
I don't hide from my opinions, I wasn't vocal about it, and I don't think I was a jerk about it, just not what I would have done and I was dead wrong on both.
That's why I do what I do and people who are not me get paid to run football teams.
I just didn't think he'd be motivational -- that players would only be motivated by fear of messing up or fines, but not in such a way that would extract that extra 5-10% out of him.
At first it seemed as though that would be the case, until 2007 happened.
I know I was already in favor '56 but If I wasn't the honor and respect he has and demonstrates for our service people both here and abroad the NYPD, NYFD, and the military is inspiring and would have turned me around haha.
I know I was already in favor '56 but If I wasn't the honor and respect he has and demonstrates for our service people both here and abroad the NYPD, NYFD, and the military is inspiring and would have turned me around haha.
Here, here..
I was actually a bigger fan of his when he was first hired... Â
I'm convinced we caught lightning in a bottle twice and he benefitted from it. His teams are wildly inconsistent and his game management is questionable at best. Same thing as Jacksonville. I won't get into his treatment of the media or his other flaws. He's here and our coach so I root for him, but he's done nothing for me to do a 180.
...Anyway, I was wrong on Eli too and that took as long. I don't think I was truly a believer in Eli until the 2007 playoffs...
That's exactly the time he won me over..Actually, it was in the loss to the 15-0 Pats(to finish 16-0) that did it for me..
Good point, might have been the same moment for me too. It seems like that's the time the whole team really began to believe in themselves and take on the persona of their coach.
It would have been so easy, so easy really for Coughlin to sit the starters or have them play a series or even a quarter with the playoff seeding already clinched. that was a gritty, gutsy performance and for nothing but pride.
possibly a franchise turning point. And it was a game they lost.
...Anyway, I was wrong on Eli too and that took as long. I don't think I was truly a believer in Eli until the 2007 playoffs...
That's exactly the time he won me over..Actually, it was in the loss to the 15-0 Pats(to finish 16-0) that did it for me..
Good point, might have been the same moment for me too. It seems like that's the time the whole team really began to believe in themselves and take on the persona of their coach.
It would have been so easy, so easy really for Coughlin to sit the starters or have them play a series or even a quarter with the playoff seeding already clinched. that was a gritty, gutsy performance and for nothing but pride.
possibly a franchise turning point. And it was a game they lost.
Agree, even if, as feared, we lost some players to injury against the Pats in the season finale
I remember being disappointed that we didn't get an offensive Â
Guru ( wanted Gruden) but changed my opinion by the regular season. I believe in structure and rules. Making people accountable, and TC did that from the first day he walked in and I loved every second of it.
But kind of turning the other way I'm afraid the game has evolved to a point that makes him more of a relic. I hope I'm wrong and he can adjust to the new nfl
I was thrilled when he became head coach in 2004 because.... Â
....I knew it would be a return to Giants smash mouth football. I also knew that he would ultimately grow stale as he did in Jacksonville. It's a shame that he has stuck around this long and will probably be around a .500 coach in terms of winning/losing seasons here once this year is through. 6-4 (plus two 8-8s) after 12 years. The last 3 years have not been kind to his or Eli's legacy.
Respected coughlin in 04 and felt we made a good to great hire Â
I thought Fassel got everything possible out of a clearly outmanned team every week. Ernie Accorsi and his coaching staff served as lead weights around his neck, all the time he was here.
Then he took that rag-tag team all the way to the Superbowl and ran into what I consider (with the '85 Bears the best defense in the history of the NFL).
Along comes Coughlin (who had built [and eventually destroyed] the team in JAX. Tom became the biggest A-hole in the history of coaching, since Norm Van Brocklin with the Eagles).
By the end of 2006, Giants Stadium resounded with "Fire Coughlin". But behind the scenes, things had already begun to change for the better. Michael Strahan met with him and told him that the players were ready to revolt (as had happened in JAX).
The Giants brass were ready to chop his head, but at the last minute met with the players (but to their surprise, I'm sure), found they supported Tom, strongly.
So, yes, I've done a 180, as far as he's concerned. Win or lose, he's a lot easier to support - NOW.
Not a complete 180. Maybe a 67.5. I liked him because I knew that Â
I wanted him here badly, but once he was here I thought he was an asshole and wanted him fired after the 2006 season, and I have to admit that all the stuff that Tiki was saying really convinced me he was an asshole. So in a sense I did have a change of heart.
Marty. I did not like TC when first hired because of his inane rules and because I did not believe he could win the loyalty of the players. Of course, I was wrong had have done the complete 180 to the point that I can not see anyone else coaching this team.
I wanted Nick Saban. I knew TC's track record as a winning coach who's message wore out in Jacksonville. Knew the Giants needed a butt kicker after Country Club atmosphere under Fassel, so I felt it was a good choice but wondered if he could get the Giants where they wanted to go. Eli era bought him some time and they were a playoff team in 05 so I was behind him from then on pretty much. All the (media) hot seat bullshit he dealt with I never bought into until after the 2013 season, and still so many here staunchly supported him, I was looking long tern and how the roster had so many holes, and thought it was best to make the move because at his age how long would he stay anyway? Keeping him for 14, along with getting rid of Gilbride, made it stupid to fire him for not making the playoffs, so now I hope they make enough improvement so his firing won't be a major topic in 2015/16. TC is alright with me. 2 SBs make him awesome, but the lack of consistency is damning. More on Reese than TC.
My biggest complaint is a lack of halftime adjustments, bullish loyalty to some assistants, and stubborn persistence with some plays even though they've gotten stuffed time and again in that game.
And even so I respect the guy, his leadership and his work ethic.
his hiring with the disclaimer that I hoped he had learned something at Jacksonville about developing better relationships with his players. Then I thought he sounded like a total asshole at his opening press conference and it appeared to me he had not changed. A few years later he had that meeting with Giants brass when he was closed to being canned. He then did his 180 on his relationship with players and things got better. Since his 180, my feelings about him has gotten better. However. I think we need fresh blood now.
I had many fights with you guys over the years about this but I believe that I was proven right.
and seeing the team quit on Fassel in 2003, I really wanted TC here from the start. I felt the players needed a boot in the ass.
I see problems with Coughlin here and there but he makes improvements when he is sure an improvement needs to be made. He is loyal to a fault sometimes but overall he's an amazing head coach and the best in my lifetime of watching the Giants.
on coughlin changed when he showed he could be flexible on his approach. i think he's a very solid coach who knows how to motivate and get the best out of people. if you buy in to his system you can be great. that being said, he's stubborn to a fault and his defenses have been atrocious some years for which he needs to accept some of the blame.
The Giants could do a lot worse and his two Super Bowl rings give him football's version of "street cred" when it comes to getting the players to buy into what he's doing (and you can't underestimate the importance of that), but if it were not for two overthrown balls by Tony Romo (one on third and goal with seconds remaining in the 2007 playoffs and the other an overthrow of a wide open Myles Austin when a completion would've lost the Giants the game and ended their hopes of making the 2011 playoffs) Tom Coughlin would have a total of one playoff win in 11 seasons as head coach.
The inconsistency, the sloppy play, the lack of physicality running the ball and stopping the run, the fast starts and slow finishes....this is not what I expected when he first came to the team.
JF could never overcome the personnel issues. And Foxy leaving didn't help.
I gave TC the benefit of the doubt right from the star but was happy he adjusted re: his approach to the players. I still remember all the whining about TC - "martinet", "how come they have to be there 5 minutes early" and "why do they have to dress a certain way in the hotel lobby".
Loved the hiring in 2004 but thought he should be canned many times after that. Now, I'm comfortable with him. I think he's done a fantastic job with what he's been given. I don't think he's ever had a truly top tier team despite winning 2 super bowls. Good teams that came together in the end but never truly elite teams.
In fact, I remember that I was at pat O'Brien's. I remember having a very positive response when it flashed on the screen because I thought the organization could use some ass kicking. It fired me the fuck up a bit to be honest! I think I actually yelled when I saw it. And because TC was a fellow former Cuse player, pffft...done. I knew at that moment it was a great hire. Just enough chaos in the midst of a very stable organization. He would definitely stir the pot and many would not like it.
Late in life, he learned not to try to be something he's not - a big D-head with a lot of phony theatrics (remember when he tore all the posters of the wall in a contrived "rage")
He kept his mouth shut, when Tiki & Shockey were running theirs ....
He's loyal to his coaching staff, but he's made the changes when he's had to - Lynn, Sheridan, Hufnagle, Gilbride ....
He's flexible - he has his own offensive philosophy but is willing to adjust & work with others (McAdoo's is diametrically opposite), for the good of the team.
some of the players were part of the problem when TC git here. Strahan was a bit of a nudge testing TC. Intentionally coming to meetings a minute or two late just to be difficult.
The rules are still in place for the most part, big thing TC needed to change was related to the advice his wife gave him "Take that knife out of your voice."
But he wrote a piece about TC, and I emailed him re: a few points he made in it - briefly, his end response was that there was fault on both sides and something to the effect that they deserved each other. FWIW
like someone else said, I viewed him as a retread, but I didn't know much about him.
Since then, I've been up and down. I wanted him gone before the 2011 SB run (I was, gasp, wrong). I've wanted him gone for the last couple of years (right so far, but the book isn't closed yet). I think he doesn't get the most out of his team more often than he does. I view both SB years as hot streak lightning in a bottle, and many years a disappointment (and not just because they didn't end in rings).
anyone who has been here has seen if any posters Â
I was really hoping the Giants would select Ralph Fridgen from Maryland. He had background in the pros plus was a good organizer.
Oh well I guess I was wrong again. After that I tend to go along with the people being paid to make football decisions.
Probably more my age rather than my stupidity
I also loved the hire, but was really irked by him... Â
when he went through that period with all of the silly rules disrupting his relationship with his players. Of course, the man loosened up and won, and now I love that he's our coach.
There was only one respected poster who never, ever Â
budged on his disdain for TC..That's Redskins fan bw in dc..We talked offline after the '08 and '12 SB and in each separate case when I said, "will you know change your mind on how solid TC is?" His reply? "Oh please."
with coordinators - TC wanted Greg Williams as his initial DC. He also apparently wanted Hufnagel which turned out to be a disaster.
agree about Hufnagle..But in fairness to TC(and something stubborn BBIers to this day won't acknowledge, even a little bit) Huff had glowing reports from Brady AND Belichick who sang the highest of praises for him..If you're the HC and you're very close with Belichick, what would you have done, especially since not very many respected OCs were available, iirc?
with coordinators - TC wanted Greg Williams as his initial DC. He also apparently wanted Hufnagel which turned out to be a disaster.
His first choice was not Hufnagel.
It was Bill Callahan. By the time Ernie got done screwing around with Saban, both Williams and Callahan were unavailable.
like someone else said, I viewed him as a retread, but I didn't know much about him.
Since then, I've been up and down. I wanted him gone before the 2011 SB run (I was, gasp, wrong). I've wanted him gone for the last couple of years (right so far, but the book isn't closed yet). I think he doesn't get the most out of his team more often than he does. I view both SB years as hot streak lightning in a bottle, and many years a disappointment (and not just because they didn't end in rings).
Nothing rankles more than the implication that we lucked out during our two fantastic runs..We weren't 10-6 in '07, we were 14-6..THAT was our season long body of work, no matter how we ended up there..
We weren't 9-7 in '11, we were 13-7(.650 ball)..THAT was our season long body of work..
as a GM/Owner you know who your potential coordinator's choices would be prior to him getting hired. as soon as you decide to hire him, Williams and Callahan should have known that the coordinator jobs were their's. absent that, you're not putting your HC in the best position to succeed.
and have stayed with him through all the peaks and valleys. With his name in the Ring of Honor and Hall of Fame already secured, im looking forward to another Championship.
personally I think TC is making a mistake staying on as it could taint his legacy. Think the game is different one today and requires younger and more innovative mindset. No innovation coming out of TC, they had to hire someone elses offensive ideas from another team that is putting up the stats (Green Bay).
that he'll never live down. If you told me at that time he'd win 2 Super Bowls in 11 years and that the other 9 years would be about .500 with no playoff wins I'd have signed up for it. And I'll sign up for the next coach to have that record too whenever that happens.
I didn't say we lucked out. My interpretation of lightning in a bottle is that we put it together for a stellar streak of amazing games at a fortuitous moment - a hot streak. We earned those rings. But if you asked me midway or even 3/4 of the way through those seasons if we were going all the way, I'd have been dubious. I've been doubtful ever since the '11 win, and growing more doubtful every season.
I didn't say we lucked out. My interpretation of lightning in a bottle is that we put it together for a stellar streak of amazing games at a fortuitous moment - a hot streak. We earned those rings. But if you asked me midway or even 3/4 of the way through those seasons if we were going all the way, I'd have been dubious. I've been doubtful ever since the '11 win, and growing more doubtful every season.
Seriously…I thought he was a militant jerk and nutcase when he came in…and he was. He started to win me over after he was told to chill a bit and, over time, showed that he could actually be a great coach without being a militant jerk and nutcase.
like someone else said, I viewed him as a retread, but I didn't know much about him.
Since then, I've been up and down. I wanted him gone before the 2011 SB run (I was, gasp, wrong). I've wanted him gone for the last couple of years (right so far, but the book isn't closed yet). I think he doesn't get the most out of his team more often than he does. I view both SB years as hot streak lightning in a bottle, and many years a disappointment (and not just because they didn't end in rings).
Nothing rankles more than the implication that we lucked out during our two fantastic runs..We weren't 10-6 in '07, we were 14-6..THAT was our season long body of work, no matter how we ended up there..
We weren't 9-7 in '11, we were 13-7(.650 ball)..THAT was our season long body of work..
Lightning in a bottle twice, my ass..:)
I think that my memory is too old to remember that far back when Coughlin was hired.
But I sure agree with you on the poor sports who claim that they were the better team but the Giants got lucky on one or two plays.
A top example is the 2011 NFC Title Game. "The Giants lost that game because Williams muffed two kicks."
First, the second kick was not muffed, but Williams knocked the ball out. Special teams are just as much part of the game as offense and defense.
Second, they conveniently forgot the fumble that Williams had recovered near the end of the first quarter on the Niner's 25 yard line. Buck (or whomever) had already called a Giant recovery by Tuck.
Third, they forgot the kick returns that Williams made in the second half that gave the Niners short fields for their two scores.
The real reason that the Niners lost that game was because Alex Smith completed twelve forward passes in the entire game. Manning completed thirty two for over 300 yards despite that fact that he was sacked six times and hit many more. This game, IMHO, was his finest hour.
Same thing with the pass that Welker "dropped" that he catches "95 percent of the time." Christ, the ball was thrown behind him. It wasn't an easy catch for anyone.
As for Coughlin, I had mixed feelings. I liked the fact that he already had a winning record in the league, and that he was a disciplinarian. I didn't like his childish rules about arriving at meetings five minutes early and the dress code and especially the way he screamed into the face of a player who had screwed up on a play.
But winning cures almost everything and the players could accept them in exchange for being an elite team.
I don't blame Coughlin much for the downturn in fortune. His roster has just become weaker and weaker. But I do think that a player on a losing team is going to have a lot more trouble with the irritable side of the Coach.
I read rumors that the dislike of Martellus Bennett for the coach was a factor in his leaving, in another one of Jerry's brilliant personnel moves. It was really nice of the Giants, a Mara-like good deed, to take Bennett from obscurity with the Cowboys, turn him into a one of the better tight ends in the NFC, and then present him to the Bears on a silver platter.
Last year for the Bears he had 90 receptions for 916 yards, six touchdowns and 43 first downs. And the Giants had another hole in the roster to fill. I hope he sent the Giants a Christmas card.
As two veteran Giant fans, I must say that you are doing far, far better than me in containing your anger for this quick return to the NFL basement.
like someone else said, I viewed him as a retread, but I didn't know much about him.
Since then, I've been up and down. I wanted him gone before the 2011 SB run (I was, gasp, wrong). I've wanted him gone for the last couple of years (right so far, but the book isn't closed yet). I think he doesn't get the most out of his team more often than he does. I view both SB years as hot streak lightning in a bottle, and many years a disappointment (and not just because they didn't end in rings).
Nothing rankles more than the implication that we lucked out during our two fantastic runs..We weren't 10-6 in '07, we were 14-6..THAT was our season long body of work, no matter how we ended up there..
We weren't 9-7 in '11, we were 13-7(.650 ball)..THAT was our season long body of work..
Lightning in a bottle twice, my ass..:)
I think that my memory is too old to remember that far back when Coughlin was hired.
But I sure agree with you on the poor sports who claim that they were the better team but the Giants got lucky on one or two plays.
A top example is the 2011 NFC Title Game. "The Giants lost that game because Williams muffed two kicks."
First, the second kick was not muffed, but Williams knocked the ball out. Special teams are just as much part of the game as offense and defense.
Second, they conveniently forgot the fumble that Williams had recovered near the end of the first quarter on the Niner's 25 yard line. Buck (or whomever) had already called a Giant recovery by Tuck.
Third, they forgot the kick returns that Williams made in the second half that gave the Niners short fields for their two scores.
The real reason that the Niners lost that game was because Alex Smith completed twelve forward passes in the entire game. Manning completed thirty two for over 300 yards despite that fact that he was sacked six times and hit many more. This game, IMHO, was his finest hour.
Same thing with the pass that Welker "dropped" that he catches "95 percent of the time." Christ, the ball was thrown behind him. It wasn't an easy catch for anyone.
As for Coughlin, I had mixed feelings. I liked the fact that he already had a winning record in the league, and that he was a disciplinarian. I didn't like his childish rules about arriving at meetings five minutes early and the dress code and especially the way he screamed into the face of a player who had screwed up on a play.
But winning cures almost everything and the players could accept them in exchange for being an elite team.
I don't blame Coughlin much for the downturn in fortune. His roster has just become weaker and weaker. But I do think that a player on a losing team is going to have a lot more trouble with the irritable side of the Coach.
I read rumors that the dislike of Martellus Bennett for the coach was a factor in his leaving, in another one of Jerry's brilliant personnel moves. It was really nice of the Giants, a Mara-like good deed, to take Bennett from obscurity with the Cowboys, turn him into a one of the better tight ends in the NFC, and then present him to the Bears on a silver platter.
Last year for the Bears he had 90 receptions for 916 yards, six touchdowns and 43 first downs. And the Giants had another hole in the roster to fill. I hope he sent the Giants a Christmas card.
As two veteran Giant fans, I must say that you are doing far, far better than me in containing your anger for this quick return to the NFL basement.
Someone actually pointed out in the 2007(2008) Playoff against the Cowboys that Owens was wide open and Romo overthrew him or that the Cowboys were an Int away from winning..
Amazing how flucking selective people can be..What was conveniently missed or forgotten was the uber easy dropped pick-six by Webster that game..
When TC was hired I was pissed big time. I wanted a younger coach with fresh ideas and a new slant. I guess I have mellowed a bit since then. I still do not agree with TC in regards to his almost total lack of trust in rookies. He also subjects certain players to the sideline wrath of TC. I think that he ruined David Wilson. That kid had the ball stripped from him twice and to the bench he went. Someone should teach TC to coach not dictate. I find myself 1/2 way to 180. I am at 90 and can go no further. There are times that I feel that the 2 SB wins were not because of TC but in spite of him.
When TC was hired I was pissed big time. I wanted a younger coach with fresh ideas and a new slant. I guess I have mellowed a bit since then. I still do not agree with TC in regards to his almost total lack of trust in rookies. He also subjects certain players to the sideline wrath of TC. I think that he ruined David Wilson. That kid had the ball stripped from him twice and to the bench he went. Someone should teach TC to coach not dictate. I find myself 1/2 way to 180. I am at 90 and can go no further. There are times that I feel that the 2 SB wins were not because of TC but in spite of him.
When TC was hired I was pissed big time. I wanted a younger coach with fresh ideas and a new slant. I guess I have mellowed a bit since then. I still do not agree with TC in regards to his almost total lack of trust in rookies. He also subjects certain players to the sideline wrath of TC. I think that he ruined David Wilson. That kid had the ball stripped from him twice and to the bench he went. Someone should teach TC to coach not dictate. I find myself 1/2 way to 180. I am at 90 and can go no further. There are times that I feel that the 2 SB wins were not because of TC but in spite of him.
Should have said rarely instead of never. However, i believe the exception here, is that unlike us, he had exceptional talent at virtually every position..
Iirc, Dorgan thought Switzer was a great HC..It's possible he was referring to his college days, but my impression at the time was that he was, period.
Being coach but mostly because his style was wearing thin in the nfl. Interestingly enough the Giants needed more regimented structure and discipline but over his career with the team I don't think the players or coaches ever really adopted that style of play.
He is a good coach. Far from bad but closer to very good.
Being coach but mostly because his style was wearing thin in the nfl. Interestingly enough the Giants needed more regimented structure and discipline but over his career with the team I don't think the players or coaches ever really adopted that style of play.
He is a good coach. Far from bad but closer to very good.
I think TC's problems in Jax in his final years were, in addition to some key personnel missing, more about TC the GM than TC the HC..Imo
I don't understand the segway from 'Bennett disliked TC a factor in his leaving' to it somehow being a failing of Reese in not retaining MB. IF MB didn't like his situation,because of TC, that makes it harder for Reese.
I don't understand the segway from 'Bennett disliked TC a factor in his leaving' to it somehow being a failing of Reese in not retaining MB. IF MB didn't like his situation,because of TC, that makes it harder for Reese.
fkap, this is the first i've heard of MB having a problem with TC(based on Reese's pieces claiming to have heard that), have you? Not saying it wasn't true, just tgat I never heard that before RP's post
I can't find any support for that allegation either, so I withdraw it. Â
So ask Reese why he let Bennett walk and he would probably say that there was very little cap space and if you asked him why there was so little cap space he would say that it was because he wasn't a very good GM.
just like any coach or player that's been here before I reserve judgment until after I see results. His first couple of seasons were pretty middle of the pack so I didn't think much of him,especially after the Eagles bounced us in the playoffs.
When the Giants came out of the tunnel single file I thought WTF is this. I'd never seen anything like it before,and haven't since.
At first I really didn't think he was anything special as a coach to be honest,and all the controversy between Strahan just solidified my opinion.
As he grew and started showing a different side of Caughlin,is when I really started to change my opinion just like so many of his players.
His decision to play against the patriots instead of resting his players was a very wise decision IMO. I'm betting if he doesn't and they rest there starters,then they don't gain the confidence of almost beating the most dominant team in the regular season,and playoffs that year. Or any other season really,as they were being talked about as the greatest team of all time. 18-1 Baby!! We stomped "em out... :)
When they went on that magnificent run in 2007 I thought it may have been the finest Coaching I'd ever seen,especially out coaching Big Bill in the superbowl.
The same goes for 2008 and 2011. I believe they would have won it all in 08 as well had Plax not shot himself. That was one of the most if not the most dominant Giants team I had ever seen.
Now for 2011 it was another incredable run. Eli carried the team on his back throughout the regular season and playoffs. Even stepping it up a notch once they were in the tournament. Once again I believe Caughlin out coached the (Best)coach in the League. While Eli made probably the most incredible throw and catch I've seen in my 25 years of watching football,it was the coaching and gameplan that put them in position to win there 4th Lombardi trophy.
Caughlin has had an incredible run and I think he deserves this last chance to see where he can take us. Hopefully back to the mountain top once again!!
I've definitely warmed to Caughlin over the years. He's my favorite coach and I hope he takes us on another run and goes out ontop on his terms,no one elses...
I want people who DIDN'T want him here..:)
I even thought he should have been fired after 2006.
I was completely wrong. TC has won me over. Though I wouldn't have fought for his job if Reese decided it was best to part ways. While I admit I was dead wrong on TC, I don't think he deserves a lifetime appointment as head coach.
I also didn't want to trade for Eli.
I didn't like the fact he refused to play for SD (I was critical of JD Drew for that Eric Lindros for that, and I would have been critical of Elway for it if I were old enough) and I thought the Giants gave up too much and would have been better off trading down with CLE? and picking Big Ben.
Anyway, I was wrong on Eli too and that took as long. I don't think I was truly a believer in Eli until the 2007 playoffs.
I don't hide from my opinions, I wasn't vocal about it, and I don't think I was a jerk about it, just not what I would have done and I was dead wrong on both.
That's why I do what I do and people who are not me get paid to run football teams.
At first it seemed as though that would be the case, until 2007 happened.
That's exactly the time he won me over..Actually, it was in the loss to the 15-0 Pats(to finish 16-0) that did it for me..
Here, here..
Quote:
...Anyway, I was wrong on Eli too and that took as long. I don't think I was truly a believer in Eli until the 2007 playoffs...
That's exactly the time he won me over..Actually, it was in the loss to the 15-0 Pats(to finish 16-0) that did it for me..
Good point, might have been the same moment for me too. It seems like that's the time the whole team really began to believe in themselves and take on the persona of their coach.
It would have been so easy, so easy really for Coughlin to sit the starters or have them play a series or even a quarter with the playoff seeding already clinched. that was a gritty, gutsy performance and for nothing but pride.
possibly a franchise turning point. And it was a game they lost.
Quote:
Quote:
...Anyway, I was wrong on Eli too and that took as long. I don't think I was truly a believer in Eli until the 2007 playoffs...
That's exactly the time he won me over..Actually, it was in the loss to the 15-0 Pats(to finish 16-0) that did it for me..
Good point, might have been the same moment for me too. It seems like that's the time the whole team really began to believe in themselves and take on the persona of their coach.
It would have been so easy, so easy really for Coughlin to sit the starters or have them play a series or even a quarter with the playoff seeding already clinched. that was a gritty, gutsy performance and for nothing but pride.
possibly a franchise turning point. And it was a game they lost.
Agree, even if, as feared, we lost some players to injury against the Pats in the season finale
Then he took that rag-tag team all the way to the Superbowl and ran into what I consider (with the '85 Bears the best defense in the history of the NFL).
Along comes Coughlin (who had built [and eventually destroyed] the team in JAX. Tom became the biggest A-hole in the history of coaching, since Norm Van Brocklin with the Eagles).
By the end of 2006, Giants Stadium resounded with "Fire Coughlin". But behind the scenes, things had already begun to change for the better. Michael Strahan met with him and told him that the players were ready to revolt (as had happened in JAX).
The Giants brass were ready to chop his head, but at the last minute met with the players (but to their surprise, I'm sure), found they supported Tom, strongly.
So, yes, I've done a 180, as far as he's concerned. Win or lose, he's a lot easier to support - NOW.
And even so I respect the guy, his leadership and his work ethic.
I had many fights with you guys over the years about this but I believe that I was proven right.
I see problems with Coughlin here and there but he makes improvements when he is sure an improvement needs to be made. He is loyal to a fault sometimes but overall he's an amazing head coach and the best in my lifetime of watching the Giants.
The inconsistency, the sloppy play, the lack of physicality running the ball and stopping the run, the fast starts and slow finishes....this is not what I expected when he first came to the team.
I gave TC the benefit of the doubt right from the star but was happy he adjusted re: his approach to the players. I still remember all the whining about TC - "martinet", "how come they have to be there 5 minutes early" and "why do they have to dress a certain way in the hotel lobby".
Glad some of the players changed as well.
We have more injuries than ever under TC.
My only beef.........
Sorry Fiddy, off your topic, but still.
He kept his mouth shut, when Tiki & Shockey were running theirs ....
He's loyal to his coaching staff, but he's made the changes when he's had to - Lynn, Sheridan, Hufnagle, Gilbride ....
He's flexible - he has his own offensive philosophy but is willing to adjust & work with others (McAdoo's is diametrically opposite), for the good of the team.
The rules are still in place for the most part, big thing TC needed to change was related to the advice his wife gave him "Take that knife out of your voice."
Since then, I've been up and down. I wanted him gone before the 2011 SB run (I was, gasp, wrong). I've wanted him gone for the last couple of years (right so far, but the book isn't closed yet). I think he doesn't get the most out of his team more often than he does. I view both SB years as hot streak lightning in a bottle, and many years a disappointment (and not just because they didn't end in rings).
(political correctness OFF)
Oh well I guess I was wrong again. After that I tend to go along with the people being paid to make football decisions.
Probably more my age rather than my stupidity
He gave him zero credit..ZERO...
Bastid! :)
agree about Hufnagle..But in fairness to TC(and something stubborn BBIers to this day won't acknowledge, even a little bit) Huff had glowing reports from Brady AND Belichick who sang the highest of praises for him..If you're the HC and you're very close with Belichick, what would you have done, especially since not very many respected OCs were available, iirc?
based on admittedly few observations of him in training camp, he had that "Knife-tongued" issue as well.
His first choice was not Hufnagel.
It was Bill Callahan. By the time Ernie got done screwing around with Saban, both Williams and Callahan were unavailable.
Was TC Ernie's choice? If not, was the delay due to incompetence, indifference, or sabotage?
Since then, I've been up and down. I wanted him gone before the 2011 SB run (I was, gasp, wrong). I've wanted him gone for the last couple of years (right so far, but the book isn't closed yet). I think he doesn't get the most out of his team more often than he does. I view both SB years as hot streak lightning in a bottle, and many years a disappointment (and not just because they didn't end in rings).
Nothing rankles more than the implication that we lucked out during our two fantastic runs..We weren't 10-6 in '07, we were 14-6..THAT was our season long body of work, no matter how we ended up there..
We weren't 9-7 in '11, we were 13-7(.650 ball)..THAT was our season long body of work..
Lightning in a bottle twice, my ass..:)
Thing was, Wellie wanted Tom and wasn't going to be dissuaded.
Timing is everything when it comes to coaching hires. The good ones get snapped up if you don't pull the trigger when the target comes into view.
I do not think he would have accepted the job. All the dysfunction we see, he would see even clearer.
Gotcha buddy
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like someone else said, I viewed him as a retread, but I didn't know much about him.
Since then, I've been up and down. I wanted him gone before the 2011 SB run (I was, gasp, wrong). I've wanted him gone for the last couple of years (right so far, but the book isn't closed yet). I think he doesn't get the most out of his team more often than he does. I view both SB years as hot streak lightning in a bottle, and many years a disappointment (and not just because they didn't end in rings).
Nothing rankles more than the implication that we lucked out during our two fantastic runs..We weren't 10-6 in '07, we were 14-6..THAT was our season long body of work, no matter how we ended up there..
We weren't 9-7 in '11, we were 13-7(.650 ball)..THAT was our season long body of work..
Lightning in a bottle twice, my ass..:)
I think that my memory is too old to remember that far back when Coughlin was hired.
But I sure agree with you on the poor sports who claim that they were the better team but the Giants got lucky on one or two plays.
A top example is the 2011 NFC Title Game. "The Giants lost that game because Williams muffed two kicks."
First, the second kick was not muffed, but Williams knocked the ball out. Special teams are just as much part of the game as offense and defense.
Second, they conveniently forgot the fumble that Williams had recovered near the end of the first quarter on the Niner's 25 yard line. Buck (or whomever) had already called a Giant recovery by Tuck.
Third, they forgot the kick returns that Williams made in the second half that gave the Niners short fields for their two scores.
The real reason that the Niners lost that game was because Alex Smith completed twelve forward passes in the entire game. Manning completed thirty two for over 300 yards despite that fact that he was sacked six times and hit many more. This game, IMHO, was his finest hour.
Same thing with the pass that Welker "dropped" that he catches "95 percent of the time." Christ, the ball was thrown behind him. It wasn't an easy catch for anyone.
As for Coughlin, I had mixed feelings. I liked the fact that he already had a winning record in the league, and that he was a disciplinarian. I didn't like his childish rules about arriving at meetings five minutes early and the dress code and especially the way he screamed into the face of a player who had screwed up on a play.
But winning cures almost everything and the players could accept them in exchange for being an elite team.
I don't blame Coughlin much for the downturn in fortune. His roster has just become weaker and weaker. But I do think that a player on a losing team is going to have a lot more trouble with the irritable side of the Coach.
I read rumors that the dislike of Martellus Bennett for the coach was a factor in his leaving, in another one of Jerry's brilliant personnel moves. It was really nice of the Giants, a Mara-like good deed, to take Bennett from obscurity with the Cowboys, turn him into a one of the better tight ends in the NFC, and then present him to the Bears on a silver platter.
Last year for the Bears he had 90 receptions for 916 yards, six touchdowns and 43 first downs. And the Giants had another hole in the roster to fill. I hope he sent the Giants a Christmas card.
As two veteran Giant fans, I must say that you are doing far, far better than me in containing your anger for this quick return to the NFL basement.
Rules were minor irritants, at best. The yelling and berating players - that needed to change.
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In comment 12226562 fkap said:
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like someone else said, I viewed him as a retread, but I didn't know much about him.
Since then, I've been up and down. I wanted him gone before the 2011 SB run (I was, gasp, wrong). I've wanted him gone for the last couple of years (right so far, but the book isn't closed yet). I think he doesn't get the most out of his team more often than he does. I view both SB years as hot streak lightning in a bottle, and many years a disappointment (and not just because they didn't end in rings).
Nothing rankles more than the implication that we lucked out during our two fantastic runs..We weren't 10-6 in '07, we were 14-6..THAT was our season long body of work, no matter how we ended up there..
We weren't 9-7 in '11, we were 13-7(.650 ball)..THAT was our season long body of work..
Lightning in a bottle twice, my ass..:)
I think that my memory is too old to remember that far back when Coughlin was hired.
But I sure agree with you on the poor sports who claim that they were the better team but the Giants got lucky on one or two plays.
A top example is the 2011 NFC Title Game. "The Giants lost that game because Williams muffed two kicks."
First, the second kick was not muffed, but Williams knocked the ball out. Special teams are just as much part of the game as offense and defense.
Second, they conveniently forgot the fumble that Williams had recovered near the end of the first quarter on the Niner's 25 yard line. Buck (or whomever) had already called a Giant recovery by Tuck.
Third, they forgot the kick returns that Williams made in the second half that gave the Niners short fields for their two scores.
The real reason that the Niners lost that game was because Alex Smith completed twelve forward passes in the entire game. Manning completed thirty two for over 300 yards despite that fact that he was sacked six times and hit many more. This game, IMHO, was his finest hour.
Same thing with the pass that Welker "dropped" that he catches "95 percent of the time." Christ, the ball was thrown behind him. It wasn't an easy catch for anyone.
As for Coughlin, I had mixed feelings. I liked the fact that he already had a winning record in the league, and that he was a disciplinarian. I didn't like his childish rules about arriving at meetings five minutes early and the dress code and especially the way he screamed into the face of a player who had screwed up on a play.
But winning cures almost everything and the players could accept them in exchange for being an elite team.
I don't blame Coughlin much for the downturn in fortune. His roster has just become weaker and weaker. But I do think that a player on a losing team is going to have a lot more trouble with the irritable side of the Coach.
I read rumors that the dislike of Martellus Bennett for the coach was a factor in his leaving, in another one of Jerry's brilliant personnel moves. It was really nice of the Giants, a Mara-like good deed, to take Bennett from obscurity with the Cowboys, turn him into a one of the better tight ends in the NFC, and then present him to the Bears on a silver platter.
Last year for the Bears he had 90 receptions for 916 yards, six touchdowns and 43 first downs. And the Giants had another hole in the roster to fill. I hope he sent the Giants a Christmas card.
As two veteran Giant fans, I must say that you are doing far, far better than me in containing your anger for this quick return to the NFL basement.
Someone actually pointed out in the 2007(2008) Playoff against the Cowboys that Owens was wide open and Romo overthrew him or that the Cowboys were an Int away from winning..
Amazing how flucking selective people can be..What was conveniently missed or forgotten was the uber easy dropped pick-six by Webster that game..
SB wins are never in spite of
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When TC was hired I was pissed big time. I wanted a younger coach with fresh ideas and a new slant. I guess I have mellowed a bit since then. I still do not agree with TC in regards to his almost total lack of trust in rookies. He also subjects certain players to the sideline wrath of TC. I think that he ruined David Wilson. That kid had the ball stripped from him twice and to the bench he went. Someone should teach TC to coach not dictate. I find myself 1/2 way to 180. I am at 90 and can go no further. There are times that I feel that the 2 SB wins were not because of TC but in spite of him.
SB wins are never in spite of
As a human being? Absolutely.
Iirc, Dorgan thought Switzer was a great HC..It's possible he was referring to his college days, but my impression at the time was that he was, period.
Coach?
He is a good coach. Far from bad but closer to very good.
He is a good coach. Far from bad but closer to very good.
I think TC's problems in Jax in his final years were, in addition to some key personnel missing, more about TC the GM than TC the HC..Imo
fkap, this is the first i've heard of MB having a problem with TC(based on Reese's pieces claiming to have heard that), have you? Not saying it wasn't true, just tgat I never heard that before RP's post
So I'll leave the whole misadventure on Reese.
So ask Reese why he let Bennett walk and he would probably say that there was very little cap space and if you asked him why there was so little cap space he would say that it was because he wasn't a very good GM.
Home Town Discount - ( New Window )
When the Giants came out of the tunnel single file I thought WTF is this. I'd never seen anything like it before,and haven't since.
At first I really didn't think he was anything special as a coach to be honest,and all the controversy between Strahan just solidified my opinion.
As he grew and started showing a different side of Caughlin,is when I really started to change my opinion just like so many of his players.
His decision to play against the patriots instead of resting his players was a very wise decision IMO. I'm betting if he doesn't and they rest there starters,then they don't gain the confidence of almost beating the most dominant team in the regular season,and playoffs that year. Or any other season really,as they were being talked about as the greatest team of all time. 18-1 Baby!! We stomped "em out... :)
When they went on that magnificent run in 2007 I thought it may have been the finest Coaching I'd ever seen,especially out coaching Big Bill in the superbowl.
The same goes for 2008 and 2011. I believe they would have won it all in 08 as well had Plax not shot himself. That was one of the most if not the most dominant Giants team I had ever seen.
Now for 2011 it was another incredable run. Eli carried the team on his back throughout the regular season and playoffs. Even stepping it up a notch once they were in the tournament. Once again I believe Caughlin out coached the (Best)coach in the League. While Eli made probably the most incredible throw and catch I've seen in my 25 years of watching football,it was the coaching and gameplan that put them in position to win there 4th Lombardi trophy.
Caughlin has had an incredible run and I think he deserves this last chance to see where he can take us. Hopefully back to the mountain top once again!!
I've definitely warmed to Caughlin over the years. He's my favorite coach and I hope he takes us on another run and goes out ontop on his terms,no one elses...