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Remember How Bad the Giants' D Was for Spags' 1st 2 Games?

TC : 4/9/2015 8:43 pm
I've rarely seen a less effective D than the Giants were for Spags' first 2 games as DC. They looked like they were paralyzed! Spags looked like a Giant mistake! But then they began trusting his system and playing their assignments, and they turned into beasts.

I'm happy Spags is back, but temper my excitement with the realization that they may not look great to start with, and that there will likely still be personnel issues to deal with. But that said, I'm excited to see what they can do this season. Last time Spags D became very effective, but additionally, it was an exciting squad to watch play. I like his willingness to make adjustments, and to maximize the use of his player's skills.

I'm looking forward to this season!
i fully  
Les in TO : 4/9/2015 8:45 pm : link
expect some teething issues on D this year as the new players adjust to a new system. hopefully not as bad as spags 1.0 games 1-2.
I think that Ross play at the goal line  
robbieballs2003 : 4/9/2015 8:47 pm : link
Turned everything around. He blew that play up.
RE: i fully  
Big Blue '56 : 4/9/2015 8:48 pm : link
In comment 12226152 Les in TO said:
Quote:
expect some teething issues on D this year as the new players adjust to a new system. hopefully not as bad as spags 1.0 games 1-2.


Les, most here expect teething issues and will say so over and over UNTIL it happens and when it does happen, the place will implode..

Count on it..:)
The Packers game  
Big Rick in FL : 4/9/2015 8:48 pm : link
Was my first ever Giants game. Had on field passes for the pre game. Everybody thought the Hefty Lefty was starting. He was on the field super early. Got a pic with him as he was the only player on the field. Launched a few footballs about 10 rows deep on the top deck to a few fans sitting there. Didn't see Eli at all.

Was an absolute nightmare of a game. Really bad memories lol luckily I went to the first Skins game, Falcons & Bucs game. They more then made up for it. Especially with Ronde's comments on Eli & then a couple hundred Giants fan gathered together singing Na Na Na Na hey hey hey goodbye to the Bucs team. Sooooo awesome!
RE: I think that Ross play at the goal line  
Taggart : 4/9/2015 8:50 pm : link
In comment 12226157 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
Turned everything around. He blew that play up.


I felt that Antonio Pierce blowing that airhorn at that reporter's questions was the turning point. Seriously.
The Skins  
Big Rick in FL : 4/9/2015 8:50 pm : link
Game was amazing too. Up until the 4th quarter EVERYBODY in my section was talking shit to me. Even the usher. I was the only Giants fan within a couple hundred people. So fun to stand on my seat after Ross blew them up on the goal line while Redskins fans called me a pussy, faggot, fuck face lol
After the Falcons game  
Big Rick in FL : 4/9/2015 8:53 pm : link
I remember going back to Florida and going to a car show with a friend who is an Eagles fan. It was the Wednesday after the game and I told him we are going to win the Super Bowl. Told him I don't know why just a gut feeling. Sure enough we won the Super Bowl. He still says that is the craziest thing he's ever heard. He's like how the hell did you know. I met a bunch of the players prior to the game. Just the commradarie with the players made me feel like we had a chance. They were like Brothers & I've met plenty of teams. Never saw that until then.
Les is right.  
old man : 4/9/2015 8:54 pm : link
There will be some growing pains for 2 reasons:
1. A new system will require veterans to buy in and adjust, which is why I also expect, other than OL, the draft to be heavy on the D, because, with the D players from last year(Bromley,Behre) and CTaylor, and the draft
2. the young players will be more open to adjust and adapt to a new system(no prejudices).
Hopefully our first two games  
Big Rick in FL : 4/9/2015 9:01 pm : link
Aren't as tough as those two games were. The Cowboys & Packers to start the year was bullshit. Two of the final 4 teams in the NFC playoffs.
I do!  
KeoweeFan : 4/9/2015 9:01 pm : link
The Giants D at the time took a while to buy in (even though Spags was bringing Jimmy Johnson's very effective defense from Philly).
Hopefully Spags track record lst time around w/ the Giants and his experience since will allow him to get buy in from day one this time.
The key is whether team leaders buy in right away. Of course what complicates that is "who are the team leaders"?
I think we should be more worried by the fact that he was horrible in  
chris r : 4/9/2015 9:03 pm : link
his last DC gig.
Sorry Old Man  
KeoweeFan : 4/9/2015 9:04 pm : link
I typed while you were posting.
Great minds...
I'm worried the defense is going to be that shitty..  
arcarsenal : 4/9/2015 9:07 pm : link
...and remain that shitty because I don't think the personnel is anywhere near good enough to field an above average unit.
I think that it was just coincidence it was the first 2  
OBJesus : 4/9/2015 9:09 pm : link
Our Dbacks were pretty meh at the time (this was while Cweb was still fighting off the bust label) and as incredible as our pass rush was no unit comes to play at a high enough level to carry other units EVERY week of the season, it could've been the learning curve for the team than again it may have had nothing to do with that at all
'56 with his finger on the pulse of BBI...as usual  
raever : 4/9/2015 9:14 pm : link
Quote:
Les, most here expect teething issues and will say so over and over UNTIL it happens and when it does happen, the place will implode..

Count on it..:)


Seriously this IS what is going to happen hahaha
Arc  
Big Rick in FL : 4/9/2015 9:15 pm : link
I think we have plenty of talent. Spags just needs them to reach potential. JPP, Hankins, Ellis, Ayers, Moore, JT Thomas, Kennard, DRC & Prince have all shown flashes of being very good to great players. Add in solid vets like McClain, Patterson, Beason and it's pretty solid if healthy. Throw in a couple of high draft picks and we could have a very good Defense.

Spags Linebackers, defensive tackles, cornerbacks & Safeties were nothing special the last time he was here. Kawika, Kiwi, Torbor, Gibril, Butler, Ross, Dockery, Webster, Madison, McQuarters, Alford, Blackburn, Gerris Wilkinson.

Outside of Webster, Kiwi & Blackburn none of them were even decent players a few years after 2007.
RE: '56 with his finger on the pulse of BBI...as usual  
Big Blue '56 : 4/9/2015 9:17 pm : link
In comment 12226212 raever said:
Quote:


Quote:


Les, most here expect teething issues and will say so over and over UNTIL it happens and when it does happen, the place will implode..

Count on it..:)



Seriously this IS what is going to happen hahaha


Raever, since you watch a lot of college ball(I don't watch any) I have a quick question: Is there any way, iyo, that the Giants see the S Collins as an impact player and might take him at 9? I know most here said it ws a remote thrower, but I'm interested in your take
I don't know...  
arcarsenal : 4/9/2015 9:22 pm : link
I'm in the camp that is pretty skeptical of Spags' resume since he left here. Obviously I am hoping for the best but a lot has changed since 2007/2008. A good start would be not getting ravaged by injuries again.
Not as bad as first time through  
Zebra3 : 4/9/2015 9:22 pm : link
Tim Lewis had that defense all fucked up. Guys were afraid to play on insticts. Fewells biggest thing is scheme the defense will be thrilled to shit can the Fewell try to confuse the QB Fire drill.
Well there is not much room  
giantgiantfan : 4/9/2015 9:31 pm : link
for this defense to get worse so their is that. And if you assume the offense will be at least a little better than last years it might be enough to get us some wins if the defense comes out slumping a bit.

Depends on the opening schedule among other things.
RE: I don't know...  
Big Blue '56 : 4/9/2015 9:47 pm : link
In comment 12226228 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I'm in the camp that is pretty skeptical of Spags' resume since he left here. Obviously I am hoping for the best but a lot has changed since 2007/2008. A good start would be not getting ravaged by injuries again.


Injuries, my major concern..We differ in our present(on paper) assessment of this D..We will get a S or two imo..Of that I have no doubt..Crossing my fingers with Beason, but a healthy DRC, Prince would be huge..Ellis, Hankins and Bromley(the unknown at this point) along with Jenkins should help against the run..Selvie I expect to be steady..JPP? No real feel about him..I expect Kennard to take a nice leap under Spags..Plus, there's the draft..As I said, injuries will be the major (possible) fly in the ointment
Do you remember who was Spagnuolo's  
RetroJint : 4/9/2015 9:58 pm : link
wave rotation defensive lineman in 07? It was Justin Tuck, who started 1 game that season. Mike Strahan pulled a Sandy Koufax after that year by retiring at his absolute peak. Justin Tuck was the best defensive lineman in the game in 08. Flo Adams, coupled with the neck vertebrea injury,robbed Tuck of much of his brilliance. Furry Paisano also had a springy young reebox named Osi, as well as the highly underrated Fred Robbins, who went on to play for Spagnuolo for the Rams well into his 30s. In short, the Giants had a shortlived Fearsome Foursome.

That has changed. So has the competition. I cannot wait to see Spagnuolo line up Moore, whom he truly loves we have been told, for 50 snaps against the power running attacks of the Cowboys & Eagles.

A word about that flop as DC with the Saints. They had talent on defense, as Rob Ryan proved the next season when he made them a top 5 defense. And, as far as these "oh it was such a disfunctional mess that year," the Saints finished 7-9, not 1-15. They were 7-9 in 14. Were they a disfunctional mess under Payton? The first thing that he did once he got the key fob back to his office was fire Steve Spagnuolo.

In any evaluation, audit, handicap, whatever, an immutable rule applies to all: the most recent history is the most important history. The Daily Racing Form, starting pitchers in baseball. The most recent history concerning Spagnuolo has been terrible. Dallas has gotten better in the off-season compared to the Giants. At least so far. Dallas was 12-4 last year.
Arc  
Big Rick in FL : 4/9/2015 9:59 pm : link
Trust me there wasn't a person on this board who wanted Spags less then I did. Then I watched games from 2008 & realized our D was great with players who aren't great talent.

We have more talent now then we did in 2008 so that leaves me optimistic that we will have a good defense again. A lot of the players have flashed like I stated above, but never really consistently played great. I put that on Fewell though. He even admitted he had no idea why Moore wasn't in the game against Dallas. Moore had 5.5 sacks last year which seems low and then you look at his snap count and you see he only played around 300 snaps. Which was 29% of our defensive plays. Spags is going to get that guy on the field more and he is going to be a very good player this year. Just watch! Even if he is on the field for a little over double the amount of plays last year. Stays close to the same place & he is a 12+ Sack player.
'56  
raever : 4/9/2015 10:12 pm : link
If the Giants use the #9 pick on Landon Collins I'm hoping they are right because there will be better options available imo.

I wouldn't for a few of reasons. I don't see elite cover skills or playmaking ability for a DB. He doesn't have soft hands for the INT(only 5 career INT's). I question his effectiveness covering scat backs or slot receivers in space(7.38 3-cone). His recovery speed in the deep half is in doubt. He had 0 sacks in his career.

What he excels at is coming downhill and stifling the running attack. He will put a hurt on you with his tackling. He can cover TE's. He will blowup screens. I've heard him described as a 'combo' safety by some but imo he'll be better in the box as a true SS.

Is that value at #9 in today's game?
Worth noting  
idol-mind : 4/9/2015 11:32 pm : link
that those two blowouts came against the 2nd and 3rd ranked offenses in the league (in a year where the top offense was the record-breaking Patriots).
And by that same note,  
idol-mind : 4/9/2015 11:33 pm : link
think about how amazing it was to start off so badly and then shut down the top 3 offenses in the league to an average of 17 points in three consecutive games.
Thanks Raever  
Big Blue '56 : 4/10/2015 8:39 am : link
for the breakdown..

This however is intriguing and something we've lacked for quite some time, imo.

Quote:

What he excels at is coming downhill and stifling the running attack. He will put a hurt on you with his tackling. He can cover TE's. He will blowup screens. I've heard him described as a 'combo' safety by some but imo he'll be better in the box as a true SS.
RE: Arc  
OBJesus : 4/10/2015 8:41 am : link
In comment 12226293 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
Trust me there wasn't a person on this board who wanted Spags less then I did. Then I watched games from 2008 & realized our D was great with players who aren't great talent.

We have more talent now then we did in 2008 so that leaves me optimistic that we will have a good defense again. A lot of the players have flashed like I stated above, but never really consistently played great. I put that on Fewell though. He even admitted he had no idea why Moore wasn't in the game against Dallas. Moore had 5.5 sacks last year which seems low and then you look at his snap count and you see he only played around 300 snaps. Which was 29% of our defensive plays. Spags is going to get that guy on the field more and he is going to be a very good player this year. Just watch! Even if he is on the field for a little over double the amount of plays last year. Stays close to the same place & he is a 12+ Sack player.


Idk if we have more talent now, I'd like to say we have a better balance in talent but that may not even be the case considering our LBs and safties could be god awful this up coming year, and that Dline alone back then probably had more talent amongst them than damn near our entire defense right now lol we have 2 lockdown corners and a pretty good dline but other than that.. roster looks weak as shit on the defensive side
RE: Arc  
arcarsenal : 4/10/2015 8:44 am : link
In comment 12226293 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
Trust me there wasn't a person on this board who wanted Spags less then I did. Then I watched games from 2008 & realized our D was great with players who aren't great talent.

We have more talent now then we did in 2008 so that leaves me optimistic that we will have a good defense again. A lot of the players have flashed like I stated above, but never really consistently played great. I put that on Fewell though. He even admitted he had no idea why Moore wasn't in the game against Dallas. Moore had 5.5 sacks last year which seems low and then you look at his snap count and you see he only played around 300 snaps. Which was 29% of our defensive plays. Spags is going to get that guy on the field more and he is going to be a very good player this year. Just watch! Even if he is on the field for a little over double the amount of plays last year. Stays close to the same place & he is a 12+ Sack player.


Overall, maybe.. but the defensive line was the foundation for everything when we were at our best defensively with Spags and while we have some good players there now, we certainly don't have what we had then.

The 2008 defense also had the benefit of a ball dominating offense that wore teams down on the ground and took time off the clock. That Giants defense was better than the 2014 Cowboys defense but both benefitted in the same way.

The linebacker position is still a bit worrisome.. Kennard is the guy I really like but I can't rely on Beason to stay healthy. Safety is also a huge concern.
I was worried we had made a mistake  
jjgmrg901 : 4/10/2015 8:53 am : link
I was at the Washington game and boy was it tough for the first half. People around us were really going to town.

My daughter couldn't watch the last two plays but thank god they kept Portis on the bench. Beginning of questionable call by Joe Gibbs.

Wonder what would have happened if Portis rather than Betts was in there?
I agree with arc and chrisr.  
Curtis in VA : 4/10/2015 8:54 am : link
I'm still hesitant to put any faith in this D because I don't think the talent is there and really, we can come up with every reason in the world as to why he has flopped at every position since leaving here and I hope all of those excuses are valid but...he hasn't sniffed success in 7 years.

Also, I had to laugh when you said you'd rarely seen a less effective D. Perry's defense has been much worse at times. Historically one of the worst ever, haha. Spags really has nowhere to go but up, so there's that at least. =)
So in '08  
RollBlue : 4/10/2015 8:54 am : link
who were the unstoppable DLineman and safeties????? No Osi or Stray. Who were the LBers??? People really have selective memories. The D sucked against the run primarily because PF never taught the DE to contain. They ALWAYS crashed inside on fakes - ALWAYS. Start to have some contain on the edge and this group will be fine. Spags will also get more out of blitzes than PF - take it to the bank.
Like I said...  
arcarsenal : 4/10/2015 9:13 am : link
The 2008 defense benefitted from the 2008 offense which was on the field more than basically any team in football. Their average drive was 3 minutes long which was 2nd longest in the league. The 2008 defense was about average against the run. They were 21st in the league in sacks, didn't force many turnovers, weren't a good 3rd down defense...

The 2008 defense if you just look at points and yards looked a lot better on the surface than it actually was.

The best part of the 2008 Giants defense was our own offense.
RE: Like I said...  
Curtis in VA : 4/10/2015 9:28 am : link
In comment 12226648 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The 2008 defense benefitted from the 2008 offense which was on the field more than basically any team in football. Their average drive was 3 minutes long which was 2nd longest in the league. The 2008 defense was about average against the run. They were 21st in the league in sacks, didn't force many turnovers, weren't a good 3rd down defense...

The 2008 defense if you just look at points and yards looked a lot better on the surface than it actually was.

The best part of the 2008 Giants defense was our own offense.


The 2008 offense also didn't turn the ball over. Having an offense that can eat up the clock and hold onto the ball is a huge assist. Both of which are concerns for 2015 as our rushing offense is, based on the past 2 seasons...pretty atrocious. And there were a lot of DUMB turnovers last season.

Who do you see as the Defensive Leaders on this team  
SwirlingEddie : 4/10/2015 9:29 am : link
this year? JPP? Beason? JPP doesn't strike me as the right type, but the players may feel differently.
RE: Do you remember who was Spagnuolo's  
dorgan : 4/10/2015 9:45 am : link
In comment 12226290 RetroJint said:
Quote:


That has changed. So has the competition. I cannot wait to see Spagnuolo line up Moore, whom he truly loves we have been told, for 50 snaps against the power running attacks of the Cowboys & Eagles.



Nail, meet hammer.

Fortunately, I don't think it will happen unless the young man has a turn around. Until he shows something in that area, I don't think you'll see him as a full time starter.

I can understand an early infatuation with his pass rush skills, but his complete inability to defend the run will become readily apparent.

I really think he could play the run. He just hasn't shown any interest, any technique in that area, nor the strength to do so.
Gotta to pull for him to come along, but I'm not overly optimistic.
at bare minimum  
Les in TO : 4/10/2015 11:17 am : link
i am hopeful that we aren't going to see the same magnitude of safety-CB miscommunications leading to easy touchdowns or major plays and that we are going to see a more aggressive and strategic blitzing approach.
The point about the 08  
RollBlue : 4/10/2015 1:26 pm : link
defense was talent compared to this year's group. Not how much TOP the offense will have or TOs. IMV, the talent level appears to be similar.
spags  
area junc : 4/10/2015 1:33 pm : link
has an interesting way of doing things.....taken from late jim johnson. very good article w/quotes from antonio pierce who knew his D inside and out. he relies upon subtle shifts into correct position by the D. when it works it looks like there's 13 men on the field. when it doesnt it gets torched.
It probably takes some time  
RB^2 : 4/10/2015 1:38 pm : link
Remember how awful the new offense looked in the preseason?
my fear  
mdc1 : 4/10/2015 3:04 pm : link
is still at MLB position, mainly playing all the f'ing games. Pierce was pretty solid for us mentally and physically and something we have lacked for many years.
Idol-mind,  
Doomster : 4/10/2015 10:45 pm : link
hit the nail on the head....a new DC, and his first two games are against the #1 and #2 offenses in the NFC....both teams finished 13-3.....Spags had talent on that defense, and by the end of the season, the defense finally "got it"....
RE: i fully  
Disgruntled NYGfan : 4/13/2015 1:06 pm : link
Yes, the defense in Spags' first two games looked like our defense during the last year.
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