Shane Ray- Feel good story

but I think he's best suited to 3-4 OLB, like virtually all the top edge rushers.

Ray (to me) is a more physical player

I can see him at JPPs spot, JPP flipping to LDE, Selvie and Ayers in a NASCAR like alignment.

The thing about Ray is that his competitiveness, intensity and sideline to sideline "want to" is elite. This is the kid of thing this defense has been lacking for quite some time.

going to draft on of these "edge" rushers I would prefer Ray to Dupree.

In comment 12231973 JonC said:

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but I think he's best suited to 3-4 OLB, like virtually all the top edge rushers.

It's just a good year to be a 3-4 team. Somebody mentioned Phillips from OU in another thread as someone we should consider at #40. There are medical questions with Phillips, but he can play NT, and would therefore be attractive to a lot of 3-4 teams.

I'd rather they draft Odi or Preston Smith later on.

I wonder if he has the frame to add the weight to be a 3 down lineman. There's nothing else to not like about the kid but it's a huge question mark. The idea of a tweeter at 9 scares me. They can't miss with this pick and I think any tweeter just amplifies that possibility.

In comment 12231990 AcidTest said:

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In comment 12231973 JonC said: Quote: but I think he's best suited to 3-4 OLB, like virtually all the top edge rushers. It's just a good year to be a 3-4 team. Somebody mentioned Phillips from OU in another thread as someone we should consider at #40. There are medical questions with Phillips, but he can play NT, and would therefore be attractive to a lot of 3-4 teams.

It seems like every year is a good year to be a 3-4 team. There always seems to be a wider selection of talented 3-4 pass rushers than 4-3 pass rushers.

There is zero reason the Giants can't be more of a hybrid D. Ray would help w that. JPP and HAnkiins or Jenkins as the ends and Ray coming in at LB. No reason the team can flip back and forth depending on the opponent. Spags could do it. He was coaching in Balt last year.

I could live w a tweener if they are willing to use them in innovative ways. Instead of the failed Sintim way.

Remember, the coaching staff is essentially on notice, which leads one to wonder just how much change they'll be comfortable trying to implement.

In comment 12231992 JonC said:

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I'd rather they draft Odi or Preston Smith later on.

I'm in the minority here but I think Smith is long gone before we pick in the 2nd round.

15 tackles for loss and 9 sacks, 6'5 271 pounds, 4.74 40 yard dash, 7.07 3 cone drill, 121" vertical jump.

He also has 34" long arms, and 10 5/8" hands

This guy is also a great athlete, AND was very productive in the best conference in football. He was used as a end and rotational DT and reminds me so much of Justin Tuck. I don't know why he's not talked about as a top 15 guy more often. He profiles NFL success and he Screams "Giants". I'd love for him to be there in the 2nd round, but I don't know if it'll happen

is going to be an absolute beast. Can't teach heart or motor, and he has both. If he's available at 9, I'd sprint to the podium,

In comment 12232046 Jesse B said:

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In comment 12231992 JonC said: Quote: I'd rather they draft Odi or Preston Smith later on. I'm in the minority here but I think Smith is long gone before we pick in the 2nd round. 15 tackles for loss and 9 sacks, 6'5 271 pounds, 4.74 40 yard dash, 7.07 3 cone drill, 121" vertical jump. He also has 34" long arms, and 10 5/8" hands This guy is also a great athlete, AND was very productive in the best conference in football. He was used as a end and rotational DT and reminds me so much of Justin Tuck. I don't know why he's not talked about as a top 15 guy more often. He profiles NFL success and he Screams "Giants". I'd love for him to be there in the 2nd round, but I don't know if it'll happen

They're both likely to be gone by #40, unless Odi's medicals create enough pause, which then begs the question if #40 is too high to gamble on him.

Where does he play in a 4-3 at 6'2 245? There's no DE in the NFL at his size, and OLBs in a 4-3 aren't exactly gamechangers in the modern NFL.

He's got all the intangibles you want in a defender, but fit is a big question.

way we draft Ray is by changing our approach.

We line up our DEs by right and left. IF and that's a huge IF, we were to change our philosophy and line up our DEs by strength, a guy like Ray could fit.

JPP to strength, Ray to the weak side.


There are problems to that approach. Nothing prohibits the offense from coming out in one formation then trading the TE to the opposite side.

Some players can't play both sides. They get comfortable on one side and are ineffective on the other.

But, playing weakside-strongside is one way to utilize a smaller DE.

I don't see it happening, but thought I'd mention it.

Yup, even if they chose to draft him and try it there's a significant gamble involved.

it interesting the Giants have highlight films of Ray and Scherff at Giants.com?

In comment 12232129 area junc said:

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it interesting the Giants have highlight films of Ray and Scherff at Giants.com?

Must be smokescreens, since the Giants are all about T.J. Clemmings at #9...if he's there, right?

In comment 12232128 JonC said:

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Yup, even if they chose to draft him and try it there's a significant gamble involved.

Agreed.
The only reason I mentioned the possible change in philosophy is that Spags is coming here from a 3-4 team. It's possible he's adopted the weakside-strongside practice from his experience there. Teams that use a 50 as their base flop their ends. 3-4 teams flop their Lbers. 4-3 teams rarely do, but there's no compelling reason they can't flop them.

In comment 12232151 dorgan said:

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In comment 12232128 JonC said: Quote: Yup, even if they chose to draft him and try it there's a significant gamble involved. Agreed. The only reason I mentioned the possible change in philosophy is that Spags is coming here from a 3-4 team. It's possible he's adopted the weakside-strongside practice from his experience there. Teams that use a 50 as their base flop their ends. 3-4 teams flop their Lbers. 4-3 teams rarely do, but there's no compelling reason they can't flop them.

Understood, and it's acknowledged teams are using more 3-4 looks to better defend spread/speed, and there's more prospects that fit coming up from the college ranks. He is the type of personality the defense badly needs, I wouldn't hate the pick.

I would be happy with Ray in the first and a lineman in the second if it played out that way.

Clint Sintim did it for me.

I know next to nothing about Ray, but his size and weight scream 3-4 OLB.

I'd love it if the Giants found a way to incorporate this kid's talents into the defense. They typically don't like these tweeners but one can dream. I think Ray will be a disruptive player no matter his size or position. Some guys can just play.

blaming it all on the square peg round hole theory just doesn't wash with me. Guys either can play or they can't. HArry Carson was drafted as a DE.

Simtim sucked and got hurt. That't why he failed here.

Also didn't have the talent to be considered a top 10 draft pick. He was a mid to late second rounder I believe.

fit for this team.

I don't think he will be there at 9.

Ray seems too risky in a 4-3. I think if I'm going to take a risk at #9, I go with Randy Gregory.

a guy that repeatedly fails drug tests is safer than a guy that plays with incredible intensity?

of risk Trainmaster - similar to the Will Hill mold of risk . . .

In comment 12232238 djm said:

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blaming it all on the square peg round hole theory just doesn't wash with me. Guys either can play or they can't. HArry Carson was drafted as a DE. Simtim sucked and got hurt. That't why he failed here.

Don't disagree. But the point is you don't draft a kid w his skill set then not be innovative with it. Fewell was hardly a dynamic innovator. Zero issue w drafting this kid at 9. I also think Spags has the balls to try to be innovative. Not Fewell who was the antithesis of that.

football than I'll ever know.

If the Giants draft Ray at #9, it would have to be with the knowledge that Spags has fallen in love with him and he has a clear cut plan on how to use him in a 4-3 (e.g. moving JPP to LDE which seems to make sense to me) and has convinced Coughlin and Reese of this.

At #9 the Giants absolutely have to get top value with that pick (which is why I think many folks are not in love with any of the OL at #9). If that clear cut top value is a smaller DE/OLB, then the Giants should draft him.

there is a reason why there are not any 245 DEs in the league. You add the 15-20 pounds he might need to get there and you could very well negatively impact the strength of his game.

In comment 12231999 j_rud said:

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I wonder if he has the frame to add the weight to be a 3 down lineman. There's nothing else to not like about the kid but it's a huge question mark. The idea of a tweeter at 9 scares me. They can't miss with this pick and I think any tweeter just amplifies that possibility.

Bingo!

Is the next Terrell Suggs. Both 6ft 3 245 coming out of college (Suggs now 260). Set sack records for their colleges. Both play with a massive edge. I'm telling you he will be a Raven if he drops. Brings an attitude that our defense needs. I'm all in!

He's built the exact opposite of Ray, built more like a slightly smaller JPP.

Looks more like 275 or so. Very muscular, they may have started w/similar builds - he looks a lot more muscular than Ray at this point.

especially the lower body.

and I LOVED Suggs coming out.

Suggs is built like DL, Ray is built like an LB.

Maybe I'm way off here, but if a guy is playing lights out in a 3-4 appears to physically fit that scheme, using the value argument to take him at 9 is almost ignoring his genetics and career history.

That's the kind of stuff that creates pause for picking Ray. He likely creates a need for paradigm change.

would he be a better fit at LB than DE?

I'd think they'd look to deploy him as a weakside DE, as dorgan described.

But, for argument's sake - at 249 he ran in the 4.5s at his pro day. I think he's working hard to get his weight up, which may be a concern because during the grind of the season he may struggle to maintain that weight -

ANYWAY, the way he runs he'd probably be better at WLB or SSLB than any outside LB we've had since Armistead.

but wouldn't be stoked to spend #9 overall on an OLB.

Ran a 4.8 and only did 19 reps. Was under 260 no most of you are right probably plays at 265+

But so

If someone picks him ahead of us. I like him as a player, but share the concerns for "fit" others have pointed out. Like others, I see a lot of scenarios which would have us falling a pick or two shy of a player I could get excited about. We'll get a good player regardless, but we don't find ourselves picking in the top 10 often and it would be nice to have us coming out of day 1 with a player that had the feel of a top 10 talent. We could sure use it.

And Gregory's affection for the weed didn't help us.

If one of the OTs has the value - IMHO, that should be the pick. Cooper and White are talented but you can adjust your offense to your wrs but it's a lot harder to compensate for mediocre to average tackles, quality tackles are worth their weight in gold.

Don't think there is a solid #9 pick on defense. So, I suspect it will be an offensive player. It all starts up front, two of the best nfc teams, Dallas and Seattle appear to understand that.

This draft, more than any in my recent memory, screams for a trade back IF a partner can be found. Getting Peat, Scherff or Collins at pick 12 to 18 AND getting another 2nd or even a 3rd would be great.

I like what I hear about both Cooper and White, but I also hear there is a lot of WR talent in this draft. I think I'd rather the Giants not go WR at #9, but who else to take? It seems like the pick at #9 is either WR, Non Blue Goose OT, top OG or DE/OLB tweener.

I agree it's a tackle unless Cooper slips somehow. Not sure where they'll grade White (or Parker), and there's so many fit questions with the edge rushers. I'd heard NYG was putting extra resources into the OL scouting (Snee being a part of it came out a couple days later). I'm curious if Colin has heard anything ...

In comment 12232574 JonC said:

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I'd heard NYG was putting extra resources into the OL scouting

It did seem this way from the list of players I saw they had met with at the combine. If they don't go OL @9, I expect one to come in round 2, or 3 at the latest.

I'd agree. At #9, they're looking for a tackle, but at #40 or #74 the value and target probably shifts to OG.

at guard in round 2 would be a dream come true, especially if the Giants go WR, DE/OLB in round 1.

In comment 12232639 JonC said:

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I'd agree. At #9, they're looking for a tackle, but at #40 or #74 the value and target probably shifts to OG.

Yeah, makes sense. The list I had seen (though obviously not a comprehensive list) was very much OT heavy. And value shifting to OG in other rounds is very typical in drafts, so very logical.

than a Freeney or Trent Cole. Would love to have him.

as a scout is? On the filed, his value was unquestionable - does that translate into good insights re: which players to take? And, it's a different system than the one he was in.