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Was LT the best defensive player in NFL's 95-year history?

aquidneck : 4/22/2015 8:49 am
What other all-timers deserve to be in the same conversation?

The JPP thread made me think of this question. I think JPP is every bit the player Julius Peppers is, but I was hoping based on his rookie year that we were about to see a defensive career to rival that of the best I'd ever seen.

Long time ago now. Forget for a moment the off field bad-apple stuff. Does time enhance or diminish the stature of Taylor's on-field legacy?

Is my vision skewed or am I remembering him as he really was - in all likelihood the greatest defensive NFL player of all-time?
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Reggie White  
grizz299 : 4/22/2015 10:54 am : link
dominated the weaker players but when he ran into the really fine tackles he was neutralized.
I remember the OT for the Cowboys comletely dominated him...and actually gave Reggie a beating. Somuchso that they put in a rule change about head slaps. That never happened to LT.

I would put Bob Lilly right there. I think Deon Saunders is much underrated and belongs. Deon didn't take your best receiver away and permit everyone else to be doubled, Deon ran back ints for touchdowns.
And I bet this meets with disagreements but Revis is changing and one of the best defensive players I ever saw.
And along with Lily, I thought Gino Marchetti could do everything and was much better than the one dimensional Deacon Jones.

So LT, Lilly, Deon and Revis would be my top four.
Yes  
mfsd : 4/22/2015 10:58 am : link
.
In my opinion yes, in a landslide.  
Matt M. : 4/22/2015 11:00 am : link
I don't even think this opinion is tainted by Giants colored glasses. this is a guy who basically changed the way offenses were designed. He was a player who could completely dominate games by himself, which is rare, but rarer for defensive players. He literally won games by himself on defense. He also displayed the same level of dominance with injuries that would have kept other guys off the field.

Reggie White was great and is certainly in the conversation for #2 behind LT. But, in my opinion there is LT and then everyone else.
RE: Reggie White  
dorgan : 4/22/2015 11:04 am : link
In comment 12243981 grizz299 said:
Quote:
dominated the weaker players but when he ran into the really fine tackles he was neutralized.
I remember the OT for the Cowboys comletely dominated him...and actually gave Reggie a beating. Somuchso that they put in a rule change about head slaps.


Offensive linemen were never allowed to head slap.
The rule was changed so that guys like Deacon, Bubba Smith and Reggie would quit beating the shit out of the OL men.
Back then the OL could not use their hands at all.
The days of the chicken wing blocking.

LT gets my vote as #1  
JonC : 4/22/2015 11:08 am : link
As for JPP versus Peppers, c'mon man.

JPP version 2011 was perhaps comparable to Peppers at his best, but even then Peppers was great for multiple seasons.
.  
arcarsenal : 4/22/2015 11:11 am : link
Yeah, the JPP/Peppers comp is way off. It's really not even close when you look at full bodies of work.
yes  
Rjanyg : 4/22/2015 11:13 am : link
yes best NFL player ever. Yes I am biased.
Was LT the Best?  
Aloha Alan : 4/22/2015 12:26 pm : link
I am not sure. But in my lifetime he sure seemed like the best.

He was the first defensive player that I know where the entire offense playing against him always called out where he was and "attempted" to adjust accordingly.

As much as I adored LT, in today's NFL, would he still be the best ever? I am not sure. There are so many mobile QBs now than ever. Would have curtailed a lot of what he used to do against JAWS and Theisman, etc.
Aloha  
aquidneck : 4/22/2015 12:35 pm : link
IIRC Theisman was pretty damn mobile for a time. Did duty as a R*****ns PR as a young NFL player.
Yes.  
Red Dog : 4/22/2015 12:35 pm : link
Period.

Nobody else caused the disruption or made the offense pay attention to him as a singular entity on the defense that LT did.

x meadowlander has a nice list of other truly outstanding defenders too. I would add Emlin Tunnell (they didn't call him the offense on defense for nothing), Bob Lilly, and Ted (the mad stork) Hendricks as more truly outstanding defenders.
.....  
Micko : 4/22/2015 12:58 pm : link
It's easy to forget just how hard he would hit guys. the acceleration he had when he was on fire was unreal. that video really brought back some memories.
i've always believe you measure greatness not by  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 4/22/2015 1:23 pm : link
the impact a player has on the game but does his performance change the game? For all his greatness, Wayne Gretzky did not change the game of hockey, for example. But Bobby Orr did and the game has not been the same since.

LT changed the way the game of offensive football was played. His impact was such that offensive football was never the same...as Parcells has said and Joe Gibbs, LT's ability forced teams to move from a halfback blocking a linebacker to something else. The one back offense was created because of LT. That, to me, is the measure of true greatness.

Even Reggie White, as great as he was, did not have that kind of impact on the game. In that sense, LT was revolutionary. He was also a fierce competitor, fast, stayed healthy and essentially turned around a franchise that had been in the abyss for 15 years. Plus, he won two championships and maybe should have won at least one more.
Best NFL defensive player ever? Probably, but  
81_Great_Dane : 4/22/2015 1:46 pm : link
you need to define "best."

Bill James talks about peak value and career value for players. LT was the most dominant defender I've ever seen, probably the best ever. That's peak value.

But he didn't take care of himself and his career wasn't particularly long. Ray Lewis was an elite linebacker for much longer. There are other defensive players who played at an elite level for more seasons, including Ronnie Lott. So you could argue that someone else had greater career value.

I'd take LT over any of them, but there is another side to the argument.

#1 Defensively, and it's not even close.  
Optimus-NY : 4/22/2015 1:46 pm : link
I'd put him at #1 overall period too (arguable).
not the way I remember it , 'dorgan  
grizz299 : 4/22/2015 1:48 pm : link
the head slap was taken away from the defense first, I think it was Allen in a game against Reggie that caused it to be taken away from the offense, many years later.

It's the kind of thing I might remember incorrectly, but I haven't been able to confirm or deny on the internet.
i'd porbably give LT a slight edge over a guy like Reggie White  
djm : 4/22/2015 1:50 pm : link
based on one simple reason being that LT won 2 super bowls. That's a crappy way to compare but it's all I got.

No other players dominated the scene like White and LT did.

RE: .  
djm : 4/22/2015 1:55 pm : link
In comment 12244018 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Yeah, the JPP/Peppers comp is way off. It's really not even close when you look at full bodies of work.


Actually it's very close. JPP betters Peppers first five years in the NFL. So uh, yeah it's close.

But this thread isn't about JPP or Peppers. Check the JPP thread where I posted JPP's first five years vs Peppers first 5 five years. Guess who had the better numbers and guess who also managed to lift his team to a super bowl title...

Peppers is either overrated or JPP is underrated. Either way, JPP can sit at the table with Peppers. We shall see if JPP can rattle off another 5 good years and stay healthy. IF he does, his career will better PEppers or at the very least equal it.
gonna play a little devil's advocate  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 4/22/2015 1:57 pm : link
But I have two question marks with LT as the Defensive GOAT...

1. How much of his "revolutionary" versatility had to do with him, and how much of it had to do with the wonderful coaching/talent that surrounded him? Belichick and Parcells were two defensive geniuses who knew how to unleash LT. Two of the all-time great defensive minds this game has ever known. And Harry Carson was a brilliant MLB/ILB whose presence provided the stability to help be creative with LT on the outside. LT would've been an absolute legend no matter what team drafted him. But I think it's obvious that he was drafted into the perfect situation for him. Brilliant minds and leaders surrounding him. LT and the Giants were a great match.

2. LT's longevity pales in comparison to Reggie White's. LT didn't take care of his body and declined heavily whereas other all-time defenders like White just kept on going. Reggie White absolutely has the "longevity" edge over LT, so to pick LT he would need to be "clearly" superior when comparing the 2 at their best. As great as LT was... was he really so much better than Reggie White in their respective primes that it makes up for the longevity disparity? I don't know.

3. I think he was the Defensive GOAT, I just don't think it's as clearcut as most Giants fans/BBI thinks. His idiocy off the field cut his career short and that SHOULD impact his all-time standing to a degree. If LT wasn't a fucking douchebag off-the field, he might have played longer and truly made this question a no-brainer.


JPP '11 > any Peppers season. Peppers has the career and is going to go down as a no-doubt Hall of Famer, but Peppers wasn't some historic pass rusher. He was a freak athlete and 2-way DE like JPP. And JPP's '11 was simply better than any singular season Peppers had. Don't ever forget what a beast JPP was that year.
from one of whites teammates  
grizz299 : 4/22/2015 2:04 pm : link
'
Reggie White was playing to survive Erik Williams and not sack Aikman or trap Emmitt Smith in the backfield for a loss. Williams would frustrate and physically beat Reggie up during the game, so much so that White would not play as hard thus we would lose our best defensive player for that day. Erik Williams didn't defeat Reggie White with technique, he turned it into a brawl and Reggie knew it every time he lined up across from Williams.

In my career in Green Bay with Reggie White, I never witnessed a tackle that dominated him the way that Erik Williams did. White hated playing him and for good reason because one-on-one, Williams got in White's head and took him out of the game. It even got to the point that we knew that someone other than Reggie was going to have to make plays against the Cowboys because he wasn't . There is something to be said about a player that physically destroyed Reggie White's will to compete. I never thought I would see it but I did and there many days where walking out of Texas Stadium, I wish I hadn't.

people here will always find something wrong with JPP  
djm : 4/22/2015 2:05 pm : link
and that's fine, JPP is not a perfect player but these same people don't seem to find faults with other DEs around the league and that includes Peppers.

Peppers has been around longer so of course you can't compare careers but you can most definitely compare the players. If you're gonna shit on JPP for being the lead dog on a bad defense then we can shit all over Peppers being the lead dog on a defense that was historically bad in Chicago. And what did Peppers win in Carolina? Nothing.

JPP is every bit the player Peppers is. And JPP wasn't drafted first overall like Peppers was.

If JPP was a KC Chief all these years BBI would be tripping all over themselves hoping NYG signed him. Two way DE that averages double digit sacks every year and was the best defensive player on a super bowl winning team and is now 2 full years removed from injury? Please..BBI would be going ga ga.
Williams dominated a lot of guys  
djm : 4/22/2015 2:07 pm : link
a true bad ass. ONe of the best RTs to play the game. Williams was a boss. Drafted late too...but what a bad ass player he was.
.  
x meadowlander : 4/22/2015 2:11 pm : link




LT's combo of skill, intelligence, toughness and love of football  
sb from NYT Forum : 4/22/2015 2:14 pm : link
...make him the best ever IMO.

As far as Peppers vs. JPP, I think Peppers likes football a lot more than JPP does.
No doubt about it on the defensive side of the ball...  
trueblueinpw : 4/22/2015 2:19 pm : link
In thirty years of watching almost every Giants game and heck of lot of other NFL games, I've never seen a defensive player as dominate as LT. Greg nailed it: LT had all the physical skills but he also had a motor that never quite, an unbeliever sense for the game and a meanness - not cheap though - a meanness to playing the game that I just haven't ever seen.

Its tough to compare offensive greatness against defensive greatness. But, I've never been convinced that Jerry Rice is the best football player ever. I never saw Jim Brown play but I know he was great and that he brought the nasty just like LT. For my money, the best offensive player I've seen is Walter Payton - amazing skills - quick - fast - shifty - hands - blocking - the whole package. Never ran out of bounds to shy away from contact. Sweetness!
Yes.  
Victor in CT : 4/22/2015 2:23 pm : link
Yes. And Yes.
Yes without a doubt  
PatersonPlank : 4/22/2015 2:36 pm : link
From his first practice as a Giant he was different. I remember hearing how he ran down the running back in practice on a sweep to the other side. Back then no one paid attention to the opposite side LB because who thought he could be as fast as a RB.

Others right behind LT are:
Butkus
Nitschke
Reggie White
Deacon Jones
RE: not the way I remember it , 'dorgan  
dorgan : 4/22/2015 2:45 pm : link
In comment 12244337 grizz299 said:
Quote:
the head slap was taken away from the defense first, I think it was Allen in a game against Reggie that caused it to be taken away from the offense, many years later.

It's the kind of thing I might remember incorrectly, but I haven't been able to confirm or deny on the internet.



Offensive Linemen were never allowed to head slap. OL were forbidden from using their hands. They used to be taught to put their elbows out the side and grab their own jersey to keep from using their hands. Hence, the term "chicken wing" blocking.

As far as EH, he was an animal and known for being flexible with the rules. He was real big on fingers to the eyes and I wouldn't doubt there were games he dominated White.

But, if you look at Reggie's entire body of work and aren't impressed, you're watching the wrong guy.

EW,  
dorgan : 4/22/2015 2:46 pm : link
not EH.

Heh....always loved the play in that third gif  
Greg from LI : 4/22/2015 2:53 pm : link
Wendell Tyler trying to block LT....pure comedy.
RE: Heh....always loved the play in that third gif  
dorgan : 4/22/2015 2:58 pm : link
In comment 12244473 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Wendell Tyler trying to block LT....pure comedy.


I don't think Wendell enjoyed that moment.

Trying to block LT with a RB was not the ideal strategy.
RE: Was LT the Best?  
Hades07 : 4/22/2015 3:00 pm : link
In comment 12244175 Aloha Alan said:
Quote:
I am not sure. But in my lifetime he sure seemed like the best.

He was the first defensive player that I know where the entire offense playing against him always called out where he was and "attempted" to adjust accordingly.

As much as I adored LT, in today's NFL, would he still be the best ever? I am not sure. There are so many mobile QBs now than ever. Would have curtailed a lot of what he used to do against JAWS and Theisman, etc.
Not to throw a monkey wrench into your point there, but the QB LT sacked more than any other was Randall Cunningham. Nearly 10% of his career sacks were against him.

He was also the QB most sacked by Leonard Marshall, Charles Mann, Chris Doleman and Freddie Joe Nunn. Mobility or lack thereof has proven to have little impact on raw sack data.
Hades  
Giants2012 : 4/22/2015 3:08 pm : link
I think Jaws was sacked more by L.T. than any other QB.
Best defensive play ever I'd say.  
Torn Tendon : 4/22/2015 3:10 pm : link
Also I believe he is the best player ever in Tecmo Bowl. People claim Bo Jackson but they are wrong. Using LT, the team with Bo Jackson never scores unless it's on a kick return.

Put LT right on the Center and he'll recover the snap before it gets to the QB. Also stay in defense and use LT as a punt returner on 4th down.
RE: Hades  
Hades07 : 4/22/2015 3:16 pm : link
In comment 12244501 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
I think Jaws was sacked more by L.T. than any other QB.
Actually we are both right, he had 12.5 sacks against each.
Yeah I'd say he was  
ghost718 : 4/22/2015 3:20 pm : link
Reggie White is pretty close though.They both were fortunate to have good coaches who knew how to utilize them.Buddy Ryan was very good at getting White 1 on 1 match ups.Such as playing him over the center in the 46,etc.Eagles fans from that era would probably know,but going back and watching the games,it seemed like Jerome Brown may have faced more double teams than Reggie.
I rarely see  
Hap2K : 4/22/2015 7:01 pm : link
Defensive players knife through FB's and tackle the RB, a move that was commonplace with LT.
LT made the play when the team absolutely had to have it, consistently.
When asked what made LT so great, Little Bill said something to the effect that he had never seen a player throw his body around with the reckless abandon, that LT did.
I really miss watching him play, and in my opinion, his game against Hebert and the Saints, while wearing a shoulder harness, is one fir the ages. It seems that injuries made him play nastier.
LT could change the course of a game  
ChathamMark : 4/22/2015 7:08 pm : link
and did, many times. And on a side note, hated playing against Reggie White. Admired his play a lot. Very disruptive.
deacon jones  
Tom in Kzoo : 4/22/2015 8:39 pm : link
man invented the sack.

Reggie white.

Joe Greene.

Bob Lilly- unblockable- Dallas- reinvented front DT.

Whilst I think LT is up there- these guys are too.
If I had to pick  
bc4life : 4/22/2015 9:06 pm : link
I'd have to pick LT over Reggie because of the mentality, spirit, and soul - the soul of a crazed dog.

Deacon had the benefit of playing one of the greatest D-Lines ever and techniques that would be illegal when LT and Reggie played. Not taking anything away from him, but he is a little lower on the food chain, IMHO.
Best Defensive Player Ever  
Bill in TN : 4/22/2015 9:53 pm : link
Been watching since 1955. IMHO,

Best offensive player - Jim Brown

Best defensive player - LT

And Deacon Jones was better than Reggie White . . .
Simply put  
blueblood : 4/22/2015 10:27 pm : link
YES..
Was LT the best defensive player in NFL's 95-year history?  
Torrag : 4/22/2015 10:35 pm : link
Yes
Most  
Rolyrock : 4/22/2015 10:48 pm : link
Non Giants fans would choose LT first also.IMHO
I can't speak to the first 60, since I didn't see  
Wuphat : 4/22/2015 11:11 pm : link
those guys play, but certainly he's the best defensive player I've ever seen play.

Yeah, Reggie is up there, but as great as he was, he wasn't LT.

He would have looked great in blue, though.
RE: deacon jones  
BlueLou : 4/22/2015 11:40 pm : link
In comment 12244984 Tom in Kzoo said:
Quote:
man invented the sack.

Reggie white.

Joe Greene.

Bob Lilly- unblockable- Dallas- reinvented front DT.

Whilst I think LT is up there- these guys are too.


I should have mentioned Lily and Greene as well. Great DTs are a huge pain in the ass to scheme against,band those 2 were the best ever.
LT made what 8 or 9 consectutive pro-bowls?  
wgenesis123 : 4/23/2015 5:38 am : link
Is that not longevity for a football player? Some people here question his longevity as if he only played a couple years in the NFL. I would not trade LT for 7 Reggie Whites and I loved watching Reggie play. Certainly you could build a better team with 7 Reggie Whites, but to miss out on how amazing one LT was would not be worth it. To witness LT play was a great thing. To be a fan and have him play for your team was a once in a lifetime experience. No one is comparable! Giants fans who got to see LT play were blessed in a way that words fail to describe.
LT pretty much spoiled me for life  
Greg from LI : 4/23/2015 8:54 am : link
The first Giants season I can remember watching was 1981. I was in kindergarten. When he retired after the 1993 season, I was a senior in high school. My entire childhood was spent watching LT play. I took his greatness for granted, as if I would always see this supernatural player on my team. His retirement (and Simms' too) was almost surreal to me. The Giants without LT? How is that even possible?
Greg  
wgenesis123 : 4/23/2015 10:26 pm : link
That is the way I felt about Mickey Mantle with the Yankees. Another athlete blessed with mind boggling speed and strength. Home to first base in 3.1 seconds, legendary strength, and also like Taylor he loved to party cutting a couple years off the end of his career. A detailed comparison of the two would be interesting.
Yeah, Mantle had a booze problem...  
manh george : 4/23/2015 11:08 pm : link
but he also tore up his knee as a rookie. He played the rest of his career with a torn ACL. Mind boggling.

As far as LT is concerned, I do think he was the best on defense, but I also wonder how much better he could have been--not just in longevity--if he hit the weight room and kept stuff out of his nose.

Two extraordinary natural talents.
very easily yes  
msh : 4/24/2015 5:41 am : link
he was a total wrecking ball on defence,LT is the reason people count sacks now

madden said he was too,also said something like he is the only guy in the history of the game who could set the tone on defence,closest to him would be j.j.watt and he isnt in LT's class

LT was a unique blend of smarts/athletic/aggresive and mad he was a nightmare off the field and also one on it for opposing offences,i dont think we will ever see a player like him again the rules and current college game doesnt help as you cant hit like LT used to
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