for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

RV NYDN: There is only one way for the NYG to go (draft)

Defenderdawg : 4/25/2015 3:33 pm
"There certainly could be a better player available. There definitely will be a sexier pick. But there's nothing the Giants need more than another offensive lineman. And that's the only smart choice with the ninth overall pick."

Link - ( New Window )
Ralph isn't wrong  
gidiefor : Mod : 4/25/2015 3:44 pm : link
but you could make the same argument about the Defense, too needing some brawn, and he's putting Cruz in the line up like it's a sure thing

BPA WR, OL, DL, or Pass Rusher should all be considerations - a 2nd round O lineman wouldn't be the worst option
Ralph  
AcidTest : 4/25/2015 3:51 pm : link
is basically arguing that the need for an OL should prevail over BPA, that we should take one of the OL even if Cooper or White is available.

But that is not how Reese operates. Aside from the fact that the Giants claim they always take the BPA, Reese has already said he will take a "playmaker" over an OL. Could an OL be a "playmaker?" Sure, but not this year. Williams, Fowler, Beasley, Cooper, and White would probably all be taken ahead of any of the OL.
dumb  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 4/25/2015 3:55 pm : link
there is more than 1 round in the draft. 2nd and 3rd rounders make a hell of a difference too.

Only an idiot would pigeonhole themselves to one position and one position only for the 1st round of the NFL draft.

Just like always, it's going to be a combination of need vs. BPA. And yes, we need OL help but you don't reach for the 16th player on your board over the 8th just because he plays OL.
We shall see. I think the Giants will go OL  
ZogZerg : 4/25/2015 3:58 pm : link
And whomever they pick will be in the same tier as whatever play makers are left.

I agree with Ralph for once.
RE: dumb  
section125 : 4/25/2015 4:00 pm : link
In comment 12248979 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:
Quote:
there is more than 1 round in the draft. 2nd and 3rd rounders make a hell of a difference too.

Only an idiot would pigeonhole themselves to one position and one position only for the 1st round of the NFL draft.

Just like always, it's going to be a combination of need vs. BPA. And yes, we need OL help but you don't reach for the 16th player on your board over the 8th just because he plays OL.


Exactly. Tomlinson, Cann and others are available at #40 that can start at guard and the line will be upgraded big time.
Passing up better more talented players  
Ten Ton Hammer : 4/25/2015 4:02 pm : link
Just to fill a need is never, ever smart.

Is it smart to pass up Andrew Luck because you need a pass rusher?

How about passing up Darrelle Revis because you need a linebacker?

Over-arching assumption by Ralph  
Coach Mason : 4/25/2015 4:06 pm : link
We could easily go WR (Cooper,White,Parker) or Edge rusher if we think one is a system fit at 9 and then OL at 40. There will be a number of plug and play types sitting there in the early second.

Also if Williams falls past Raiders as top 3 pick consensus seems more and more likely to be Winston, Mariota (to Tenn or via trade up), Fowler , I wouldn't be averse to trading for him.
Ralph couldn't be more wrong  
Big Rick in FL : 4/25/2015 4:54 pm : link
That is an absurd way to think. For some reason a lot of people who want us to get OL make it seem like there is only one round in the draft. Like we won't have another shot at OL.

IMO the Giants are a Guard away from being a good line provided they stay healthy. You don't draft that in the top 10 IMO. There are plenty of good OL after round 1. You go out & get the best player in the 1st. Whether it be Cooper, White, Beasley, Fowler, Gurley.

In the 2nd/3rd round you have guys like Cann, Tomlinson, Marpet, Sambrailo, Tre Jackson, Donovan Smith, Kouandijo also you could possibly get a guy like DJ Humphries, Jake Fisher, TJ Clemmings or Cedric Ogbuehi.

If OL is the Giants highest rated player then take him. If not then don't. I'd much rather have Beasley/White + Tomlinson/Jake Fisher then Scherff/Flowers + Nelson Agholor/Preston Smith.
been saying this  
area junc : 4/25/2015 4:55 pm : link
for 4 years now since the OLine started falling apart

2011 showed the warning signs of getting our asses kicked at the LOS. we pulled it together but it was foreshadowing things to come. it's been a rapid decline since.

flowers isn't perfect but if he's the pick, he gives us an Offensive Tackle who can move a good front 7 the f#ck outta the way and pave some running lanes. that is invaluable to our situation right now even if he's technically not the best overall player on the board
Just look at a team like Miami  
Big Rick in FL : 4/25/2015 4:58 pm : link
They drafted for need a while back when they needed a WR. They reached for Ted Ginn and passed on much better talent in Patrick Willis, Marshawn Lynch & Darrelle Revis.

I'm sure there are examples of it working out better then other way around. Was just talking to my Brother about Ginn so that was the first thing to come to mind.
Big Rick  
area junc : 4/25/2015 5:00 pm : link
we draft for need in the 1st round almost every year. Go back through our drafts, it's clockwork.
Drafting  
PaulN : 4/25/2015 5:03 pm : link
A position is the stupidest thing any team can do, makes no difference what the position is.
Because they were players  
Big Rick in FL : 4/25/2015 5:09 pm : link
Rated very closely to each other. Just like the Jets new GM said yesterday in an interview. If the players are closely rated you take the position you need.

You don't pass up on Amari Cooper/Kevin White for Scherff/Flowers.
And he couldn't be more wrong  
BillT : 4/25/2015 5:12 pm : link
Because if there is a "better player available" then that's the only way for them to go and from what we know the way they will go. It's more likely though there will be a some number of equally valued players in which case I think they'll draft one of their priority positions (WR, DL, DB), if available.
Reese is gonna do what he's gonna do  
ghost718 : 4/25/2015 5:17 pm : link
Start telling him to draft this guy or position,and it will be the opposite.

When's the last time he admitted a mistake.We are still signing dollar bin linebackers,and Safety looks like a repeat of 2009.
The case can be made for offensive line  
giantgiantfan : 4/25/2015 5:17 pm : link
though digging into the stats on a 6-10 team an argument can be made for multiple positions. They ranked 23rd in rushing, which is terrible, but the offense ranked 10th in the league (in a new offense). Thats mainly because of the passing attack ranking in at 7th. Eli and Odell, really compensated for a terrible running game. So at the end of the season, I like many others believed and wanted us to go heavy offensive line.

But look at the defensive stats that resulted in Fewell getting canned. The giants gave up the 4th most yards in the league and 3rd most rushing yards. They ranked in the middle on passing (15th), but why pass when you can run...

So the defense was more of the problem on a team with lots of problems. Really they can go either way. This team should really go BPA at damn near any position outside of QB. They suck, and they need the biggest bang for their buck.
I'm pretty sure RV's three targets are accurate  
JonC : 4/25/2015 5:37 pm : link
.
Gotta take someone in their top tier.  
yatqb : 4/25/2015 5:43 pm : link
Can't just take guys by position.

This year it seems to me that need and position are likely to coincide. There's likely to be an OL in their top tier, and no skill guy (WR, DE) in that same tier.
RE: I'm pretty sure RV's three targets are accurate  
UberAlias : 4/25/2015 6:03 pm : link
In comment 12249144 JonC said:
Quote:
.


I think you're probably right. The question is, in what order.
White, Scherff, Flowers  
JonC : 4/25/2015 6:04 pm : link
.
Reese passed on better players to pick Pugh.  
LauderdaleMatty : 4/25/2015 6:05 pm : link
Anyone denying that is just fooling themselves. The point is to not reach insanely. I agree that u can wait a round or even two. But the OL is the weakest unit. LB may be weaker but Reese doesn't give a rats ass about LBs so it's OL. A better question is if Reese can draft the next Snee(only drafred probowl level OL in 15 year) is it worth passing up a stud DE or WR. It may be but claiming Reese always goes BPA is horseshit
As  
Bones : 4/25/2015 6:12 pm : link
Reese said in his press conference, he will pick the best player available "for us", which isn't necessarily the most talented player on the board.
There is no "must."  
81_Great_Dane : 4/25/2015 6:21 pm : link
The team was 6-10, and weakness at left guard was far from the only reason. They need an infusion of talent.

But yeah, I'll be very surprised if they don't find a way to get an O-lineman in the first or second rounds. Especially the second.
81GD  
JonC : 4/25/2015 6:22 pm : link
ding ding.
RE: Reese passed on better players to pick Pugh.  
BillT : 4/25/2015 6:25 pm : link
In comment 12249198 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
Anyone denying that is just fooling themselves.... It may be but claiming Reese always goes BPA is horseshit
You have absolutely no idea if this is true and from what we know about Reese and the Giants draft it's more than likely to be complete BS.
It's All About the Rows Baby  
Bernie : 4/25/2015 6:31 pm : link
just listen to JR.
BillT  
ColHowPepper : 4/25/2015 6:39 pm : link
I think what Lauderdale Matty was giving voice to, and it's an opinion with which I 100% agree (whether or not you care, lol), is that Reese's cumulative drafting misjudgments over the ~five years prior to drafting Pugh, really left the Giants no choice but to go OL with their first pick. The Petrus/Brewer/Mosley/Marching Band members/and FAs on the cheap were an utter failure and there was no one to protect Manning. Those misjudgments have resulted in the Giants drafting from weakness more often than not in recent years. (LBs we need not talk about because, as someone above said, Reese doesn't count them as part of the starting 11 on D).
hypothetical giants player rankings here...  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 4/25/2015 6:56 pm : link
Flowers (10th ranked player on board -- plays OL aka MAJOR area of need)
Waynes (6th ranked player on board -- plays CB aka somewhat an area of need, but not that much relatively speaking)

So let's say the Giants choose between those 2 guys. If the Giants rated Waynes as the 6th best prospect and Flowers the 10th best, would you still want them to select Flowers?

I would take Flowers in that situation. And if you also say yes to that, keep on dropping Flowers one spot on the Hypothetical Big Board.

15th ranked Flowers vs. 6th ranked Waynes, would you still want them to go with Flowers (best OT grade) over Waynes if the disparity between them was this large?

No chance would I take Flowers in this situation. Reaching for the 15th best player because of need when your 6th best player is still on the board is criminal.
Blind allegiance to BPA or Need ....  
Manny in CA : 4/25/2015 7:14 pm : link
Can be equally cruel masters.

That's what the Giants did in 2006 - BPA, with Mathias Kiwanuka (over DeMeco Ryans, D'Qwell Jackson, Roman Harper, Greg Jennings, Devin Hester etc.) They, of course exacerbated the situation by later moving up to pick Sinorise Moss.

The point is (these days more than ever) - You look at where you're picking, then you ask yourself - How SOON can this player help me ?
(at my greatest area of need). If the answer is now or very soon, you take him. If the answer is negative, you move on ...

You identify the 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc.greatest needs and try to match up each BPA with you corresponding needs.

Then, of course there's always the option of moving down, if you feel there's no-one worthy in the higher rounds, of being picked that high, and you feel this particular draft is deep enough to fill multiple needs.

The ONLY time this strategy doesn't work is when you have a chance to draft a once-in-generation type like Ndamukong Suh (how many times does that happen) ?
Run stuffer needed  
Chip : 4/25/2015 7:15 pm : link
With Eagles and Cowboys running game a run stuffer like Shelton is a big plus. 2nd round guard makes the most sense.
Where the Giants are picking,  
Enoch : 4/25/2015 7:50 pm : link
"find a star" is the goal, not necessarily "fill a hole."

That said, if you can do both, fantastic.
Mara's influence  
RetroJint : 4/25/2015 8:37 pm : link
We're paying Eli 20M. We have to block for him & run the ball. Geez Dallas & Philadelphia do. We get the injured back on defense. I forced Coughlin to hire Spagnuolo,so we're all set there. We will party naked like it is 07. So JR make sure if we do not get O-Line in 1, there had better be one you like in 2. Let's plot this thing, fellas.
"The only smart choice..."  
Stupendamatic : 4/25/2015 8:43 pm : link
Yeah, sure, because you say so.

Such a pompous ass.
I think it will be Scherff  
averagejoe : 4/25/2015 8:50 pm : link
Cooper is gone at 4 and White will probably be gone too. Giants will select Scherff and hope he will start at RT on opening day. This draft is not loaded with can't miss superstars. If Giants project him as a solid starter this pick make sense.
At 9 you take a real difference maker  
PA Giant Fan : 4/25/2015 8:57 pm : link
Unless you think Larry Allen is sitting there at 9, you take BPA. You go for the star player. There are guards at 40 that will be available.

Also people act like OL is such a sure thing in the draft. They have high enough bust rates and very often take time to develop. How great were all the OL taken before OB last year? How great were any of them?
RE: I think it will be Scherff  
SGMen : 4/25/2015 9:19 pm : link
In comment 12249406 averagejoe said:
Quote:
Cooper is gone at 4 and White will probably be gone too. Giants will select Scherff and hope he will start at RT on opening day. This draft is not loaded with can't miss superstars. If Giants project him as a solid starter this pick make sense.
They draft Scerff to start at OG as a rookie and PRAY he can develop into a RT.
HCP  
BillT : 4/25/2015 9:47 pm : link
You can talk all you want about the Petrus/Brewer/Mosley/Marching Band members but the idea that they picked by need rather than one of the collective BPAs available when Pugh was picked is speculation at it's worst. And that's not to mention that the injuries to Snee and Baas and Schwartz and Beatty (and even Pugh) that have been as much or a bigger factor for the OL performance as the 4th, 5th and 6th round choices that haven't worked out.
RE: Mara's influence  
BillT : 4/25/2015 9:49 pm : link
In comment 12249386 RetroJint said:
Quote:
We're paying Eli 20M. We have to block for him & run the ball. Geez Dallas & Philadelphia do. We get the injured back on defense. I forced Coughlin to hire Spagnuolo,so we're all set there. We will party naked like it is 07. So JR make sure if we do not get O-Line in 1, there had better be one you like in 2. Let's plot this thing, fellas.
Come on Retro, this is over the top cynical even for you. :)
Or Retro  
BillT : 4/25/2015 10:14 pm : link
did I just miss you point completely. Sometimes your just too subtle for me.
The thing is that there are some excellent early Rd 2 OL prospects  
cosmicj : 4/26/2015 3:58 am : link
So Reese isn't going to get comments from management if he picks another position in the 1st.

I think a clearer picture is emerging. Three things have surprised me about the last couple of days' Giants rumors:

1) the strong interest in White,
2) the strong interest in Scherff,
3) how Andrus Peat seems to have slid a bit.

I'm also keeping in mind that the Rams, who could realistucally trade up to #8, have an urgent need on the right side of their OL which increases the likelihood that there is a concerted effort at misdirection ( I'm suspicious of the talk about Scherff).

Should be an entertaining week.
good points made by everybody but  
Jersey55 : 4/27/2015 10:59 am : link
picking at the 9th spot we better not make a mistake because hopefully we won't get this opportunity again for a long time.
Back to the Corner