The most sensational case in Baltimore involved Johnson, a 43-year-old plumber who was arrested for public urination. He was handcuffed and placed in a transport van in good health. He emerged a quadriplegic.
Before he died, he complained to his doctor that he was not buckled into his seat when the police van "made a sharp turn," sending him "face first" into the interior of the van, court records state. He was "violently thrown around the back of the vehicle as [police officers] drove in an aggressive fashion, taking turns so as to injure [Johnson] who was helplessly cuffed," the lawsuit stated.
Johnson, who suffered a fractured neck, died two weeks later of pneumonia caused by his paralysis. His family sued, and a jury agreed that three officers were negligent in the way they treated Johnson. The initial $7.4 million award, however, was eventually reduced to $219,000 by Maryland's Court of Special Appeals because state law caps such payouts.
This family was screwed in so many different ways.
The 43 year old plumber (who I'm assuming is the father) gets a broken neck through malicious intent for a public urination ticket.
They sue the family through what I assume was at least a lengthy lawsuit.
They receive a payout of 7.4 million, but this is reduced to $210,000.
I wonder how much of that they received after taxes and legal fees.
Really really sad.
Not sure about legal fees, but taxes don't apply to these types of payments.
no one thought to place cameras in transport vehicles. body-cams on officers or in very car may be cost prohibitive - but there are not that many transport vehicles.
it will be interesting to hear what other passenger in transport van has to say.
At this point, looks like he may have sustained neck injury prior to being placed in van. then, if in fact there was a rough ride or even a regular ride without being belted in - could be enough to turn a fracture into a larger break.
it would appear that the mistakes made here are really about no-brain, best practices.
The most sensational case in Baltimore involved Johnson, a 43-year-old plumber who was arrested for public urination. He was handcuffed and placed in a transport van in good health. He emerged a quadriplegic.
Before he died, he complained to his doctor that he was not buckled into his seat when the police van "made a sharp turn," sending him "face first" into the interior of the van, court records state. He was "violently thrown around the back of the vehicle as [police officers] drove in an aggressive fashion, taking turns so as to injure [Johnson] who was helplessly cuffed," the lawsuit stated.
Johnson, who suffered a fractured neck, died two weeks later of pneumonia caused by his paralysis. His family sued, and a jury agreed that three officers were negligent in the way they treated Johnson. The initial $7.4 million award, however, was eventually reduced to $219,000 by Maryland's Court of Special Appeals because state law caps such payouts.
This family was screwed in so many different ways.
The 43 year old plumber (who I'm assuming is the father) gets a broken neck through malicious intent for a public urination ticket.
They sue the family through what I assume was at least a lengthy lawsuit.
They receive a payout of 7.4 million, but this is reduced to $210,000.
I wonder how much of that they received after taxes and legal fees.
Really really sad.
Not sure about legal fees, but taxes don't apply to these types of payments.
True, I'm not sure, I probably had it wrong. For some reason I assumed they would be taxed as they were still pre-tax income. It's been a long time since the Series 7 and I am no longer in finance...
I heard the mayor speak about that. She said it took them 2 years to convince CVS to come there. Now, the residents burned it down. She said she cannot understand them because this CVS services the people in the area with their prescriptions and much more.
How does burning a CVS make a statement to the police that you feel have mistreated you?
I heard the mayor speak about that. She said it took them 2 years to convince CVS to come there. Now, the residents burned it down. She said she cannot understand them because this CVS services the people in the area with their prescriptions and much more.
How does burning a CVS make a statement to the police that you feel have mistreated you?
Looting and protesting are two different things. The looters aren't trying to send a message to the police, the actual peaceful protesters were. The looters were simply looting. No message, nothing of substance to say or do, they were simply capitalizing on the situation to get free stuff.
They weren't just throwing rocks at the Fire Dept either, some people were actually cutting the hoses with switchblades in an attempt to keep the fire going.
I'm going to regret not ignoring you but here goes - FYI a lot, if not all of that military equipment was granted which means it was free or obtained at a drastically reduced price. and it really doesn't impact training.
if I may ask, where did you obtain your degree in CJ?
Regarding your assertion that a Mayor of a major city would not learn from a decision that led to millions in property damage and personal injuries ...well, I'll just go back to ignoring you.
1) Northeastern
2) My quote about 'not learning' was about the underlying social problems in society, which I thought was the subject, NOT about the mayor.
Maybe I am a bit emotional about Cops given the half dozen or so I know.
I'll say this, I know a Cop I went to college with who works for the Boston PD. Sound person, excellent at calmly diffusing situations.
Know 2 more cops who used to be neighbors, college educated, very professional, work in Austin and Salt Lake.
Then I know the redneck who is a teabagger and gun nut, who got rejected by FFX CO, who used his body camera to film himself pulling over a black driver in PG and hassling him, and showed it to his roomate thinking it was cool.
I know another person who is an air traffic controller. Not college educated, from the south, and was scheduled to be a Cop until the FAA took him (pays a lot more).
This person believes all rioters are thugs, that because he has a black friend that owns an $80,000 Audi that racial inequaility is garbage just made up by lazy people.
When I saw that crap on tape in Charleston, SC that thug hack looked just the same.
My point is, I think affluent areas have very professional staffs (though even FFX CO has had the Greer incident and jail tazer killing); but poor areas, red areas, the backcountry, I'm sorry but I see a lot of D student drop out gun lovers who like bossing people around and DO NOT care TO UNDERSTAND the NUIANCES of a complex society.
THE GOOD COPS need to speak out against these hacks like the clean MLB players did against the roiders.
until all of this city is restored. I remember burned out sections of Newark from my youth and my dad telling me it had been years since those riots happened. Not sure how things are there now (and couldn't even tell you where they were originally) but it seems to me that some places can take literally years and years to recover from riots.
When will any large stores want to return to these neighborhoods? How will they attract investment dollars again?
and we have to remember these are teens, and I read last week a neuro study basically saying teens brains are like a Ferrari without brakes. It's understandable they'd get worked up and act like idiots. I know that throwing cement at anybody unprovoked is over the line, and black-on-black violence just hurts themselves more than anybody.
At the same time, I wish I knew what one could say they need to do in order to solve their often ignored problems, and I just don't know because the whole system is messed up. Their interests matter far less than having a vote on abolishing the estate tax, sadly.
even the seemingly callous care. But what can you do? There is no carefully crafted policy that's going to get fathers back in the home, that is going to bring meaningful, remunerative work to the unskilled and provide positive role models for children, that is going to prod semi-interested students (the sort who in a suburban high school end up at four year colleges) into giving a shit when the schools are dangerous and home life is worse. We could debate whether certain policies exacerbated things - be it drug policy, welfare policy, whatever your chosen bogeyman - but the fact of the matter is these problems are intractable. People want to fix them but it is hard as hell to do so and it probably has a lot less to do with anything Congress can dream up or bureaucrats can implement than they'd like to admit. So we debate measures with much narrower and shallower impact.
The one thing nobody is talking about here is the Cost of keeping
curfew and tremendous show of Phalanx force a "success" Forgive me, this is not a success of establishing law and order when it takes 1000 officers and national guard to accomplish this.
even the seemingly callous care. But what can you do? There is no carefully crafted policy that's going to get fathers back in the home, that is going to bring meaningful, remunerative work to the unskilled and provide positive role models for children, that is going to prod semi-interested students (the sort who in a suburban high school end up at four year colleges) into giving a shit when the schools are dangerous and home life is worse. We could debate whether certain policies exacerbated things - be it drug policy, welfare policy, whatever your chosen bogeyman - but the fact of the matter is these problems are intractable. People want to fix them but it is hard as hell to do so and it probably has a lot less to do with anything Congress can dream up or bureaucrats can implement than they'd like to admit. So we debate measures with much narrower and shallower impact.
You don't have to have such nihilistic conclusions. The underclass is a product of the inequalities inherent in a capitalistic system, yes, but you can ask yourself: how much capitalism do you want? And if the rioters aren't pacified by economics or social law and order, you can ask: how much capitalism can we get away with?
My unwanted opinion is that unless you're in the upper 1%, this level isn't worth it.
even the seemingly callous care. But what can you do? There is no carefully crafted policy that's going to get fathers back in the home, that is going to bring meaningful, remunerative work to the unskilled and provide positive role models for children, that is going to prod semi-interested students (the sort who in a suburban high school end up at four year colleges) into giving a shit when the schools are dangerous and home life is worse. We could debate whether certain policies exacerbated things - be it drug policy, welfare policy, whatever your chosen bogeyman - but the fact of the matter is these problems are intractable. People want to fix them but it is hard as hell to do so and it probably has a lot less to do with anything Congress can dream up or bureaucrats can implement than they'd like to admit. So we debate measures with much narrower and shallower impact.
You don't have to have such nihilistic conclusions. The underclass is a product of the inequalities inherent in a capitalistic system, yes, but you can ask yourself: how much capitalism do you want? And if the rioters aren't pacified by economics or social law and order, you can ask: how much capitalism can we get away with?
My unwanted opinion is that unless you're in the upper 1%, this level isn't worth it.
But it's not like this underclass (and not just the African American component to it) sprung whole cloth in January 1981. Income inequality is a serious problem but I'm not sure the problems of substance abuse, criminality, illegitimacy and the like - intergenerational poverty - can simply be explained away as the function of income inequality and the excesses of capitalism.
All those social ills exist across the spectrum of inequality, but those at the high end have the resources to overcome most of it.
They exist, though they tend to be far less prevalent, and the resources are there to address them. There were things I really didn't like about Coming Apart by Charles Murray (I certainly have mixed feelings about Murray himself) but he illustrates his point well. There is a strong economic component to things, but the more significant divergences are social.
Pick your target, econimc or social, and address it rationally and progress can be made. Or accept the status-quo and prepare for the next riot.
Question: what brought about the end to the riots in 60's, early 70's? They were way worse than what we've seen so far, and they ended. Anyone remember?
Question: what brought about the end to the riots in 60's, early 70's? They were way worse than what we've seen so far, and they ended. Anyone remember?
What do you think? One thing I know for sure is that it wasn't the mid to late 70's economy. That varied moderate to severe suckitude.
I don't know. I'm old enough to remember the riots.
My father worked in Newark and his business was severely affected. But I don't rememeber how it ended. Just went away, only to return 40 years later like a bad cancer?
didn't know about the 1989 one .I remember watching a documentary on showtime about the cartel in Miami and they brought that 1980 riot up .Crazy stuff
"The underclass is a product of the inequalities inherent in a capitalistic system, yes, but you can ask yourself: how much capitalism do you want?"
I just don't accept this argument at all if inequalities refers to income rather than work vs no work. Even poor Americans have incomes far above non-Americans who lead orderly, successful lives. So why is the American underclass generally so toxic to others and so unhappy? I think cultural reasons have to play a large role, which is why I found Charles Murray's "Coming Apart" so interesting. I also think a completely dysfunctional income support system run by US government plays a large role as well.
Now, if by inequality you mean the divide between people with steady work vs those who don't, I think that's a much stronger argument. But solutions to that sort of inequality are very different from directly addressing income inequality and involve loosening US regulatory and compensation restrictions.
I can't cite any one factor, and I don't think it was any one factor. What probably had an impact, and degrees obviously vary, are:
* Election of black mayors in some of the major cities. Coleman Young in Detroit, Maynard Jackson in Atlanta, Tom Bradley in LA and eventually Harold Washington in Chicago
* No assassinations of civil rights leaders at that time. The politicians who got shot at, wounded or killed were George Wallace, Gerald Ford (twice), Harvey Milk and Ronald Reagan.
* Great Society programs providing food stamps, AFDC etc.
* Indirectly, the end of the war in Vietnam
* The fact that some of the impoverished areas (the Bronx is burning) got hollowed out population wise to the extent that there wasn't a critical mass. Fort Apache the Bronx got renamed "The Little House on the Prairie" during this period.
As I said before, it sure wasn't a caused by a vibrant economy. Inflation was a recurring problem. The decline of the US manufacturing base and auto industry, and the blue collar jobs that went with it, essentially got it's start during this time. Before that there was a North to South migration. This was job elimination. And at this point it really wasn't offshoring. Toyota didn't move an American plant to Tokyo, they just cleaned Detroit's clock. Read Halberstam's "The Reckoning" for an account ofthat.
than any other economic system. The problem now is we don't have capitalism. We have crony capitalism. The government is in cahoots with big business and both want a permanent underclass for their own reasons. Otherwise,why would we be bringing in people from other countries when our employment situation, especially in these poor areas, is so bad?
I can't cite any one factor, and I don't think it was any one factor. What probably had an impact, and degrees obviously vary, are:
* Election of black mayors in some of the major cities. Coleman Young in Detroit, Maynard Jackson in Atlanta, Tom Bradley in LA and eventually Harold Washington in Chicago
* No assassinations of civil rights leaders at that time. The politicians who got shot at, wounded or killed were George Wallace, Gerald Ford (twice), Harvey Milk and Ronald Reagan.
* Great Society programs providing food stamps, AFDC etc.
* Indirectly, the end of the war in Vietnam
* The fact that some of the impoverished areas (the Bronx is burning) got hollowed out population wise to the extent that there wasn't a critical mass. Fort Apache the Bronx got renamed "The Little House on the Prairie" during this period.
As I said before, it sure wasn't a caused by a vibrant economy. Inflation was a recurring problem. The decline of the US manufacturing base and auto industry, and the blue collar jobs that went with it, essentially got it's start during this time. Before that there was a North to South migration. This was job elimination. And at this point it really wasn't offshoring. Toyota didn't move an American plant to Tokyo, they just cleaned Detroit's clock. Read Halberstam's "The Reckoning" for an account ofthat.
I think that explains it very well. The change of leadership to represent the communities affected was big, but obviously thats not going to work in Baltimore.
If there is one positive in all of this, it's that Ray Lewis
I can't cite any one factor, and I don't think it was any one factor. What probably had an impact, and degrees obviously vary, are:
* Election of black mayors in some of the major cities. Coleman Young in Detroit, Maynard Jackson in Atlanta, Tom Bradley in LA and eventually Harold Washington in Chicago
* No assassinations of civil rights leaders at that time. The politicians who got shot at, wounded or killed were George Wallace, Gerald Ford (twice), Harvey Milk and Ronald Reagan.
* Great Society programs providing food stamps, AFDC etc.
* Indirectly, the end of the war in Vietnam
* The fact that some of the impoverished areas (the Bronx is burning) got hollowed out population wise to the extent that there wasn't a critical mass. Fort Apache the Bronx got renamed "The Little House on the Prairie" during this period.
As I said before, it sure wasn't a caused by a vibrant economy. Inflation was a recurring problem. The decline of the US manufacturing base and auto industry, and the blue collar jobs that went with it, essentially got it's start during this time. Before that there was a North to South migration. This was job elimination. And at this point it really wasn't offshoring. Toyota didn't move an American plant to Tokyo, they just cleaned Detroit's clock. Read Halberstam's "The Reckoning" for an account ofthat.
I think that explains it very well. The change of leadership to represent the communities affected was big, but obviously thats not going to work in Baltimore.
I forgot Carl Stokes in Cleveland.
And while he may have kept the cauldron from boiling over, IMHO Coleman Young might have been the worst thing that could have happened to Detroit.
RE: RE: RE: RE: if you don't break the law you don't have an issue
In comment 12252686 hudson said:
Hudson you're a fraud you have to graduate first to be Summa Cum Laude not an undergrad. you are a troll of the worst kind
Quote:
In comment 12252208 gtt350 said:
3) Police get paid and trained to professional defuse and appropriately handle tense situations. Apprently though we have a culture where ther hacks are robitically programmed to shoot anybody who doesn't proptly obey their highness. That is what happens when you take college dropout 2nd amendmant loving morons and give them the badge.
The irony of a half-wit like you insulting the intelligence of law enforcement officers. You're either an imbecile or a fucking troll, either way you're awful.
Im actually a Summa Cum Laude Criminal Justice undergrad major. I know this subject as well as anybody.
I happen to know several Cops.
3 with college degrees, 1 without.
The 1 without is a redneck gun nut who when he saw Obama attending the Selma Memorial said "N****** visiting n******," when I challenged the hack he ran on the same lines about blacks lining up to steal air Jordan's at night.
This Cop works in PG County and shot an unarmed black man this summer. I see plenty of D student drop outs like him; fortunately he has been rejected twice by Fairfax County (though even that agency has issues see John Greer or the Feb jail death).
It's disappointing a rather professionally agency like FFX Co still has the same cover our asses our shit don't stick mentality when it comes to law enforcement accountability.
There are bona fide protesters. There are looters just out to take advantage of the situation. There are outsiders who come in to take political advantage of a messy situation. And in between, there are youths from the community who are just fucking angry, and seeking to vent.
It is interesting that our president called the rioters
then Friday night Baltimore will blow up and make Monday look like a trip to Disneyland
Yes, that sounds like a perp who's angling for a sweet plea deal. However, what in the hell were they doing promising a final report by May 1. The report should go to the prosecutor's office first (and possibly the DOJ), who may request clarifications and further information. An artificial deadline like that just increases the tension either through the reaction to missing the deadline or charges filed without an adequate vetting of the evidence.
I bet you this anonymous woman's testimony had just as much to do with the charges filed as anything. She was very worried that the actions of 1 or 2 were going to get all 6 in trouble. Even if she was wrong/lied to regarding who did what, she seemed to know charges were coming.
Watched most of the press conference - seems like the most serious charges will revolve around vehicle involved homicide and failure to render aid.
The unlawful imprisonment seems a little different. I am guessing it had to do with an arrest not supported by probable cause. In NYS, that would not be criminal unless it was intentional. When an officer makes a bad arrest based on misunderstanding of the law - there are legal means to address that, but are usually based on constitutional grounds.
It will be real interesting to see how the statements read.
One final note, I thought they might have some exposure re: negligent homicide. RE: a charge of murder - have to see how that shakes out.
academics believe most of the decline in rioting can be accounted for by demographic change. I.e. the age group prone to rioting became a smaller proportion of the inner city population. It is also thought the frustration that leads to riots is a function of rising expectations. When things are generally bad those not making it don't feel so left behind but when the overall economy starts improving those at the bottom and not seeing any improvement in their own lives become hopeless and angry. Thus, the riots of the sixties abated when the economy stopped booming in the seventies.
Also, the data show that the most potent predictor for later "success" (pick your metric) among both boys and girls in poverty is whether there is a male figure residing in the home. As a recent series of NY Times articles has shown there is a paucity of available males among minorities due to high homicide and incarceration rates.
Code:
The most sensational case in Baltimore involved Johnson, a 43-year-old plumber who was arrested for public urination. He was handcuffed and placed in a transport van in good health. He emerged a quadriplegic.
Before he died, he complained to his doctor that he was not buckled into his seat when the police van "made a sharp turn," sending him "face first" into the interior of the van, court records state. He was "violently thrown around the back of the vehicle as [police officers] drove in an aggressive fashion, taking turns so as to injure [Johnson] who was helplessly cuffed," the lawsuit stated.
Johnson, who suffered a fractured neck, died two weeks later of pneumonia caused by his paralysis. His family sued, and a jury agreed that three officers were negligent in the way they treated Johnson. The initial $7.4 million award, however, was eventually reduced to $219,000 by Maryland's Court of Special Appeals because state law caps such payouts.
This family was screwed in so many different ways.
The 43 year old plumber (who I'm assuming is the father) gets a broken neck through malicious intent for a public urination ticket.
They sue the family through what I assume was at least a lengthy lawsuit.
They receive a payout of 7.4 million, but this is reduced to $210,000.
I wonder how much of that they received after taxes and legal fees.
Really really sad.
Not sure about legal fees, but taxes don't apply to these types of payments.
it will be interesting to hear what other passenger in transport van has to say.
At this point, looks like he may have sustained neck injury prior to being placed in van. then, if in fact there was a rough ride or even a regular ride without being belted in - could be enough to turn a fracture into a larger break.
it would appear that the mistakes made here are really about no-brain, best practices.
Quote:
Code:
The most sensational case in Baltimore involved Johnson, a 43-year-old plumber who was arrested for public urination. He was handcuffed and placed in a transport van in good health. He emerged a quadriplegic.
Before he died, he complained to his doctor that he was not buckled into his seat when the police van "made a sharp turn," sending him "face first" into the interior of the van, court records state. He was "violently thrown around the back of the vehicle as [police officers] drove in an aggressive fashion, taking turns so as to injure [Johnson] who was helplessly cuffed," the lawsuit stated.
Johnson, who suffered a fractured neck, died two weeks later of pneumonia caused by his paralysis. His family sued, and a jury agreed that three officers were negligent in the way they treated Johnson. The initial $7.4 million award, however, was eventually reduced to $219,000 by Maryland's Court of Special Appeals because state law caps such payouts.
This family was screwed in so many different ways.
The 43 year old plumber (who I'm assuming is the father) gets a broken neck through malicious intent for a public urination ticket.
They sue the family through what I assume was at least a lengthy lawsuit.
They receive a payout of 7.4 million, but this is reduced to $210,000.
I wonder how much of that they received after taxes and legal fees.
Really really sad.
Not sure about legal fees, but taxes don't apply to these types of payments.
True, I'm not sure, I probably had it wrong. For some reason I assumed they would be taxed as they were still pre-tax income. It's been a long time since the Series 7 and I am no longer in finance...
Everyone, this is Larry Gilliard. Many of you may recognize him. He is a Baltimore native, and he portrayed D'Angelo Barksdale on HBO's "The Wire."
He flew in this morning, and arrived at CVS with his broom in hand.
He didn't know what to expect when he arrived.... but he JUST CAME.
#ThanksLarry
How does burning a CVS make a statement to the police that you feel have mistreated you?
How does burning a CVS make a statement to the police that you feel have mistreated you?
Looting and protesting are two different things. The looters aren't trying to send a message to the police, the actual peaceful protesters were. The looters were simply looting. No message, nothing of substance to say or do, they were simply capitalizing on the situation to get free stuff.
They weren't just throwing rocks at the Fire Dept either, some people were actually cutting the hoses with switchblades in an attempt to keep the fire going.
if I may ask, where did you obtain your degree in CJ?
Regarding your assertion that a Mayor of a major city would not learn from a decision that led to millions in property damage and personal injuries ...well, I'll just go back to ignoring you.
1) Northeastern
2) My quote about 'not learning' was about the underlying social problems in society, which I thought was the subject, NOT about the mayor.
I'll say this, I know a Cop I went to college with who works for the Boston PD. Sound person, excellent at calmly diffusing situations.
Know 2 more cops who used to be neighbors, college educated, very professional, work in Austin and Salt Lake.
Then I know the redneck who is a teabagger and gun nut, who got rejected by FFX CO, who used his body camera to film himself pulling over a black driver in PG and hassling him, and showed it to his roomate thinking it was cool.
I know another person who is an air traffic controller. Not college educated, from the south, and was scheduled to be a Cop until the FAA took him (pays a lot more).
This person believes all rioters are thugs, that because he has a black friend that owns an $80,000 Audi that racial inequaility is garbage just made up by lazy people.
When I saw that crap on tape in Charleston, SC that thug hack looked just the same.
My point is, I think affluent areas have very professional staffs (though even FFX CO has had the Greer incident and jail tazer killing); but poor areas, red areas, the backcountry, I'm sorry but I see a lot of D student drop out gun lovers who like bossing people around and DO NOT care TO UNDERSTAND the NUIANCES of a complex society.
THE GOOD COPS need to speak out against these hacks like the clean MLB players did against the roiders.
When will any large stores want to return to these neighborhoods? How will they attract investment dollars again?
At the same time, I wish I knew what one could say they need to do in order to solve their often ignored problems, and I just don't know because the whole system is messed up. Their interests matter far less than having a vote on abolishing the estate tax, sadly.
If this and the curfew is what it takes to keep thugs at bay then I am all for it. We should do this in every city to keep the peace.
However the curfew must be really hurting the motel and bar business in Baltimore.
Can't wait to see the orioles play tomorrow afternoon in an empty stadium
Hope the Baltimore City Paper has a good attorney on retainer. - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
EricJ - formerly TylerAimee, yes, because the looters represent the majority of the protestors. You are fucking dense.
You don't have to have such nihilistic conclusions. The underclass is a product of the inequalities inherent in a capitalistic system, yes, but you can ask yourself: how much capitalism do you want? And if the rioters aren't pacified by economics or social law and order, you can ask: how much capitalism can we get away with?
My unwanted opinion is that unless you're in the upper 1%, this level isn't worth it.
Quote:
even the seemingly callous care. But what can you do? There is no carefully crafted policy that's going to get fathers back in the home, that is going to bring meaningful, remunerative work to the unskilled and provide positive role models for children, that is going to prod semi-interested students (the sort who in a suburban high school end up at four year colleges) into giving a shit when the schools are dangerous and home life is worse. We could debate whether certain policies exacerbated things - be it drug policy, welfare policy, whatever your chosen bogeyman - but the fact of the matter is these problems are intractable. People want to fix them but it is hard as hell to do so and it probably has a lot less to do with anything Congress can dream up or bureaucrats can implement than they'd like to admit. So we debate measures with much narrower and shallower impact.
You don't have to have such nihilistic conclusions. The underclass is a product of the inequalities inherent in a capitalistic system, yes, but you can ask yourself: how much capitalism do you want? And if the rioters aren't pacified by economics or social law and order, you can ask: how much capitalism can we get away with?
My unwanted opinion is that unless you're in the upper 1%, this level isn't worth it.
But it's not like this underclass (and not just the African American component to it) sprung whole cloth in January 1981. Income inequality is a serious problem but I'm not sure the problems of substance abuse, criminality, illegitimacy and the like - intergenerational poverty - can simply be explained away as the function of income inequality and the excesses of capitalism.
They exist, though they tend to be far less prevalent, and the resources are there to address them. There were things I really didn't like about Coming Apart by Charles Murray (I certainly have mixed feelings about Murray himself) but he illustrates his point well. There is a strong economic component to things, but the more significant divergences are social.
Question: what brought about the end to the riots in 60's, early 70's? They were way worse than what we've seen so far, and they ended. Anyone remember?
What do you think? One thing I know for sure is that it wasn't the mid to late 70's economy. That varied moderate to severe suckitude.
I just don't accept this argument at all if inequalities refers to income rather than work vs no work. Even poor Americans have incomes far above non-Americans who lead orderly, successful lives. So why is the American underclass generally so toxic to others and so unhappy? I think cultural reasons have to play a large role, which is why I found Charles Murray's "Coming Apart" so interesting. I also think a completely dysfunctional income support system run by US government plays a large role as well.
Now, if by inequality you mean the divide between people with steady work vs those who don't, I think that's a much stronger argument. But solutions to that sort of inequality are very different from directly addressing income inequality and involve loosening US regulatory and compensation restrictions.
* Election of black mayors in some of the major cities. Coleman Young in Detroit, Maynard Jackson in Atlanta, Tom Bradley in LA and eventually Harold Washington in Chicago
* No assassinations of civil rights leaders at that time. The politicians who got shot at, wounded or killed were George Wallace, Gerald Ford (twice), Harvey Milk and Ronald Reagan.
* Great Society programs providing food stamps, AFDC etc.
* Indirectly, the end of the war in Vietnam
* The fact that some of the impoverished areas (the Bronx is burning) got hollowed out population wise to the extent that there wasn't a critical mass. Fort Apache the Bronx got renamed "The Little House on the Prairie" during this period.
As I said before, it sure wasn't a caused by a vibrant economy. Inflation was a recurring problem. The decline of the US manufacturing base and auto industry, and the blue collar jobs that went with it, essentially got it's start during this time. Before that there was a North to South migration. This was job elimination. And at this point it really wasn't offshoring. Toyota didn't move an American plant to Tokyo, they just cleaned Detroit's clock. Read Halberstam's "The Reckoning" for an account ofthat.
* Election of black mayors in some of the major cities. Coleman Young in Detroit, Maynard Jackson in Atlanta, Tom Bradley in LA and eventually Harold Washington in Chicago
* No assassinations of civil rights leaders at that time. The politicians who got shot at, wounded or killed were George Wallace, Gerald Ford (twice), Harvey Milk and Ronald Reagan.
* Great Society programs providing food stamps, AFDC etc.
* Indirectly, the end of the war in Vietnam
* The fact that some of the impoverished areas (the Bronx is burning) got hollowed out population wise to the extent that there wasn't a critical mass. Fort Apache the Bronx got renamed "The Little House on the Prairie" during this period.
As I said before, it sure wasn't a caused by a vibrant economy. Inflation was a recurring problem. The decline of the US manufacturing base and auto industry, and the blue collar jobs that went with it, essentially got it's start during this time. Before that there was a North to South migration. This was job elimination. And at this point it really wasn't offshoring. Toyota didn't move an American plant to Tokyo, they just cleaned Detroit's clock. Read Halberstam's "The Reckoning" for an account ofthat.
I think that explains it very well. The change of leadership to represent the communities affected was big, but obviously thats not going to work in Baltimore.
(A little levity for a heavy topic)
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I can't cite any one factor, and I don't think it was any one factor. What probably had an impact, and degrees obviously vary, are:
* Election of black mayors in some of the major cities. Coleman Young in Detroit, Maynard Jackson in Atlanta, Tom Bradley in LA and eventually Harold Washington in Chicago
* No assassinations of civil rights leaders at that time. The politicians who got shot at, wounded or killed were George Wallace, Gerald Ford (twice), Harvey Milk and Ronald Reagan.
* Great Society programs providing food stamps, AFDC etc.
* Indirectly, the end of the war in Vietnam
* The fact that some of the impoverished areas (the Bronx is burning) got hollowed out population wise to the extent that there wasn't a critical mass. Fort Apache the Bronx got renamed "The Little House on the Prairie" during this period.
As I said before, it sure wasn't a caused by a vibrant economy. Inflation was a recurring problem. The decline of the US manufacturing base and auto industry, and the blue collar jobs that went with it, essentially got it's start during this time. Before that there was a North to South migration. This was job elimination. And at this point it really wasn't offshoring. Toyota didn't move an American plant to Tokyo, they just cleaned Detroit's clock. Read Halberstam's "The Reckoning" for an account ofthat.
I think that explains it very well. The change of leadership to represent the communities affected was big, but obviously thats not going to work in Baltimore.
I forgot Carl Stokes in Cleveland.
And while he may have kept the cauldron from boiling over, IMHO Coleman Young might have been the worst thing that could have happened to Detroit.
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In comment 12252686 hudson said:
Hudson you're a fraud you have to graduate first to be Summa Cum Laude not an undergrad. you are a troll of the worst kind
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In comment 12252208 gtt350 said:
3) Police get paid and trained to professional defuse and appropriately handle tense situations. Apprently though we have a culture where ther hacks are robitically programmed to shoot anybody who doesn't proptly obey their highness. That is what happens when you take college dropout 2nd amendmant loving morons and give them the badge.
The irony of a half-wit like you insulting the intelligence of law enforcement officers. You're either an imbecile or a fucking troll, either way you're awful.
Im actually a Summa Cum Laude Criminal Justice undergrad major. I know this subject as well as anybody.
I happen to know several Cops.
3 with college degrees, 1 without.
The 1 without is a redneck gun nut who when he saw Obama attending the Selma Memorial said "N****** visiting n******," when I challenged the hack he ran on the same lines about blacks lining up to steal air Jordan's at night.
This Cop works in PG County and shot an unarmed black man this summer. I see plenty of D student drop outs like him; fortunately he has been rejected twice by Fairfax County (though even that agency has issues see John Greer or the Feb jail death).
It's disappointing a rather professionally agency like FFX Co still has the same cover our asses our shit don't stick mentality when it comes to law enforcement accountability.
Link - ( New Window )
Yes, that sounds like a perp who's angling for a sweet plea deal. However, what in the hell were they doing promising a final report by May 1. The report should go to the prosecutor's office first (and possibly the DOJ), who may request clarifications and further information. An artificial deadline like that just increases the tension either through the reaction to missing the deadline or charges filed without an adequate vetting of the evidence.
Does sound like a perp looking for a deal.
Fair enough. But promising a final report by May 1 is a little like hitting yourself over the head with a 2X4 because it feels so good when you stop.
The unlawful imprisonment seems a little different. I am guessing it had to do with an arrest not supported by probable cause. In NYS, that would not be criminal unless it was intentional. When an officer makes a bad arrest based on misunderstanding of the law - there are legal means to address that, but are usually based on constitutional grounds.
It will be real interesting to see how the statements read.
One final note, I thought they might have some exposure re: negligent homicide. RE: a charge of murder - have to see how that shakes out.
Also, the data show that the most potent predictor for later "success" (pick your metric) among both boys and girls in poverty is whether there is a male figure residing in the home. As a recent series of NY Times articles has shown there is a paucity of available males among minorities due to high homicide and incarceration rates.