about 25 minutes north of Baltimore city. I miss NJ, but been here for about 6 years and really like it.
With that said, my wife works at the University of Maryland Medical Center, and they just evacuated her campus and all the businesses around there because of a supposed gang fight.
They are saying that the Bloods, Crips, & Black Guerilla Family gangs are banding together to attached the cops.
president in all of this nonsense ? Has he even issued a statement ? Anyone see Darnell Docketts tweet yesterday about him hating cops .Surprised this is not a bigger story
nobody is in a rush to defend the police because it clearly looks like wrong was done here, but at the same time setting a city on fire and harassing innocent people isn't going to bring him back and it certainly isn't going to make life any easier for the people of his community.
president in all of this nonsense ? Has he even issued a statement ? Anyone see Darnell Docketts tweet yesterday about him hating cops .Surprised this is not a bigger story
president in all of this nonsense ? Has he even issued a statement ? Anyone see Darnell Docketts tweet yesterday about him hating cops .Surprised this is not a bigger story
Just looked at his Twitter F that guy, he supports criminals
You ask where is the President? Is it because you expect your President to issue a statement for every local disturbance( fair enough, if that is what you are asking) or is it because he is Black and the rioters are mostly Black?
I would think if peoples lives are in danger like they were the other night with what they are saying about gang members wanting to kill cops and more rioting i would expect the president to issue some kind of statement whether he is black ,white ,purple orange or blue .
and generally against rushes to judgment, but healthy young men tend not to suffer severe, ultimately fatal spinal injuries out of nowhere. There are serious grounds for concern. You can find rioting abhorrent without assuming that there couldn't possibly be legitimate reasons for people to be outraged.
and generally against rushes to judgment, but healthy young men tend not to suffer severe, ultimately fatal spinal injuries out of nowhere. There are serious grounds for concern. You can find rioting abhorrent without assuming that there couldn't possibly be legitimate reasons for people to be outraged.
We are definitely in the middle of a trend of seemingly awful police behavior.
that is young, disenfranchised and feeling specifically targeted by the police AND living in an era of hyper communication, bad things are going to happen.
and generally against rushes to judgment, but healthy young men tend not to suffer severe, ultimately fatal spinal injuries out of nowhere. There are serious grounds for concern. You can find rioting abhorrent without assuming that there couldn't possibly be legitimate reasons for people to be outraged.
We are definitely in the middle of a trend of seemingly awful police behavior.
Not stating that it is, but it MAY be saturation media, internet, social media, etc. attention. It may be that in the past, incidents like the cop shooting a guy in the back while he is running away from a traffic stop might have ended with the cop's report. But social media rightly made it a big story.
or it may be that as protesters argue that some of these things were happening all along and people just weren't believed. The energy was there after Ferguson, where after the initial reports it seemed misdirected, and now it is being channeled toward cases that most people agree are extremely troublesome. And as long as that energy could head in that direction without being accompanied by rioting and violence it could be a force for positive change, and perhaps it will still be.
caught on tape. I'm no bleeding heart, I believe the police do a job I wouldn't do and they are asked to make life and death decisions in a heartbeat. I also believe the communities that are lashing out feel they have been targeted and 99 percent of the time there is no video. It's a tough systematic problem
Southeast Baltimore. The protests and riots haven't been near my neighborhood but it's still very concerning. There is a very anti-police sentiment in the city right now. A disturbance just recently broke out near a local mall and now there are about 100 police officers in riot gear getting rocks thrown at them. It was reportedly started by a bunch of teenagers.
between citizens and LE for some time. "Stop snitching" started there, IIRC. The issue for a lot of people is going to be serious indications of gang involvement. Because given a choice between heavy-handed police and the Bloods and Crips even people who might otherwise be sympathetic are going to have a hard time taking the side of the protesters.
The "threat" from gangs sounds like BS. Criminal organizations generally try to lay low, not mobilize precisely when the spotlight is on their backyard. At the end of the day, they're profit-maximizing enterprises, not holy warriors.
Nothing is particularly different other than our awareness level. Media has learned how to make a story of it and all they need is material to run with everyday. Looking foward, Police will be left with no choice but to prove they did not use excessive force in anything they do, i.e. body cameras. It will take a lot of false claims by detainees until things are perceived as fair and balanced again.
Fairness is both relative and a pendulum.
Having said that, how did this guy end up with a broken neck?
not saying the police are right at all but i dont see any police
The "threat" from gangs sounds like BS. Criminal organizations generally try to lay low, not mobilize precisely when the spotlight is on their backyard. At the end of the day, they're profit-maximizing enterprises, not holy warriors.
If you are really targeting police, it would be smarter to keep it a secret...
The "threat" from gangs sounds like BS. Criminal organizations generally try to lay low, not mobilize precisely when the spotlight is on their backyard. At the end of the day, they're profit-maximizing enterprises, not holy warriors.
This was my reaction as well. That "fact sheet" or whatever it was that the BPD released was probably nothing more than a bit of propaganda to deflect whatever criticism is aimed their way in the aftermath of all this.
the other interesting thing in this is that....while certain people
The "threat" from gangs sounds like BS. Criminal organizations generally try to lay low, not mobilize precisely when the spotlight is on their backyard. At the end of the day, they're profit-maximizing enterprises, not holy warriors.
They're profit-maximizing enterprises run, especially at the local level, by people who are motivated by reputational concerns almost as much as they are about money. It's not Morgan-Stanley.
RE: not saying the police are right at all but i dont see any police
The "threat" from gangs sounds like BS. Criminal organizations generally try to lay low, not mobilize precisely when the spotlight is on their backyard. At the end of the day, they're profit-maximizing enterprises, not holy warriors.
They're profit-maximizing enterprises run, especially at the local level, by people who are motivated by reputational concerns almost as much as they are about money. It's not Morgan-Stanley.
I agree but open warfare on the cops when the nation is watching is probably pretty bad for business. They probably satisfy their reputational demands by beefing with rivals.
RE: RE: not saying the police are right at all but i dont see any police
beating me down. You know why? because im not getting into trouble.
What im mad at is local officials and career protestors not coming out and speaking to stop this violence
GMAN - But that's the point... in SOME instances people are either committing crimes where the punishment they're receiving doesn't fit the level of the crime committed (for example getting tasered and shot for a broken taillight) or not committing any crime at all (like, for instance, the 12 year old kid who was shot by police because he was playing with a toy guy in the park). I wouldn't call myself a 'cop hater' at all because I realize they have a very tough job to do... BUT I've had my own experiences with police brutality and it's a very helpless feeling that I don't think most would understand unless put in the same position.
All of that said, what's going on in B-more is sickening and many city officials, as well as the family of the deceased kid themselves, have come out and asked for the rioting to stop. But having videos come out that show police officers celebrating and 'fist pumping' each other after they'd just beat down a guy (after a traffic stop no less) doesn't help ease the frustration that many black folks are, and have been, feeling for decades now (see link).
The "threat" from gangs sounds like BS. Criminal organizations generally try to lay low, not mobilize precisely when the spotlight is on their backyard. At the end of the day, they're profit-maximizing enterprises, not holy warriors.
They're profit-maximizing enterprises run, especially at the local level, by people who are motivated by reputational concerns almost as much as they are about money. It's not Morgan-Stanley.
I agree but open warfare on the cops when the nation is watching is probably pretty bad for business. They probably satisfy their reputational demands by beefing with rivals.
Reputation is money for gangs, and it is all about the money.....
Amazing that while these riots were going on Saturday night
try to make this an entirely racial conflict, the Baltimore Police Department is around 50% black.
That part has been pretty ridiculous. The mayor, chief of police, and over half of the city council members are African American. It's not like you have the white "man" against the poor black community.
and it is pretty clear to me that the police today made sure the protests/light rioting/whatever you want to call it, stayed out of the downtown or Inner Harbor area.
Regardless of what Freddie Gray did or what his criminal record is, he did not deserve to be tossed in the back of a van with his hands cuffed behind his back, with no ability to protect himself, and be intentionally driven around in a reckless, violent manner in order to give him a "rough ride" that was intended to injure him. The fact that the reasons for his arrest are murky at best makes the incident that much more questionable, but that part of it really is immaterial.
forgot the link... Yeah guys! We sure kicked that guys ass didn't we?!!! - ( New Window )
That is B.S. they shouldarrest all of the the cops and put them in general pop.
Pretty sure at least one was charged with assault.
One cop (the one who punched him 16 times in the head during the arrest) was fired. One woman resigned (don't know if she was in the video or had something else to do with it) and the others haven't been punished at all. At least not yet anyway.
I support law enforcement and government, but I detest the culture we have whete Cops, like the military, have this "you're with us or against us" mentality.
Being a cop, like going in the military, can be a brave and noble choice per the individual, but it does not give you extra rights, privileges, nor immunity from responsibility, accountability or all else.
Fact is, many Cops aren't heros doing the job for the good of mankind. Many are uneducated Neanderthals who like the power or being in charge, cannot see the world as a spectrum but rather black whit (no pun) good bad. They also attract gun lovers who like shooting things and don't have patience.
it's about fucking time we have some awareness and change.
Does the looting have anything to do with protesting against police officers, or does it reveal a greater problem within our urban communities?
This whole situation is disgusting. Baltimore is a fine city, and the people who live there are wonderful folks.
The misbehaviour of a group of chaotic youths are casting a negative view of that great town.
I pray for a peaceful end of this turmoil.
if you don't break the law you don't have an issue
many things are pumped up after the fact. Rodney King is a perfect example he put dozens of cops in peril on a high speed chase not to mention citizens and then resists arrest yet Los Angeles is almost burnt down because of this jerk
RE: if you don't break the law you don't have an issue
many things are pumped up after the fact. Rodney King is a perfect example he put dozens of cops in peril on a high speed chase not to mention citizens and then resists arrest yet Los Angeles is almost burnt down because of this jerk
What law did the guy break?
RE: Amazing that while these riots were going on Saturday night
No network switched from the White House Correspondents Dinner, where the media elites were yucking it up amongst themselves.
This sounds ridiculous, you do know that? Fox and CNN spent a couple hours on a Sat nite on a yearly event, missing some local disturbance that result in like a dozen arrests.
RE: RE: if you don't break the law you don't have an issue
many things are pumped up after the fact. Rodney King is a perfect example he put dozens of cops in peril on a high speed chase not to mention citizens and then resists arrest yet Los Angeles is almost burnt down because of this jerk
What law did the guy break?
Who? Freddie Gray or Rodney King?
RE: RE: RE: if you don't break the law you don't have an issue
many things are pumped up after the fact. Rodney King is a perfect example he put dozens of cops in peril on a high speed chase not to mention citizens and then resists arrest yet Los Angeles is almost burnt down because of this jerk
What law did the guy break?
Who? Freddie Gray or Rodney King?
Gray.
In general I agree that criminal orgs don't want a spotlight...
but inciting others to violence and chaos on the street can be another way to avoid a spotlight, can it not? As long as cops are concerned with rioting, they can't possibly keep up with any other investigations, right?
Spotlights lose their effectiveness in daylight, so turn all the floodlights on and there won't be any way to single any one suspect out. If I've been wanting to torch a place, or loot a store, or kill a rival, or steal someone's stash, a riot could be convenient cover for me, no?
and when they encountered Gray and he saw them, he took off running.
Now, that's not exactly breaking the law based on that alone I guess, but they were looking for drug dealers, and Gray's arrest record is:
03-20-15 dealing cocaine
08-28-08 possession of narcotics
10-05-12 illegal gambling
01-25-14 possession of narcotics over 10 grams
08-24-07 manufacturing and distribution narcotics
08/29-07 distribution of narcotics
09-16-08 distribution of narcotics
04-16-08 distribution of narcotics
05-09-12 distribution of narcotics
01-04-15 distribution of narcotics
12-31-14 distribution of narcotics
05-13-14 stolen property
07-16-08 distribution of narcotics
03-28-08 possession of narcotics
02-12-08 distribution of narcotics
09-29-13 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 possession of narcotics
03-20-08 burglary
03-20-08 possession of narcotics
09-21-07 distribution of narcotics
04-30-08 unlawful possession (two counts)
(Source Maryland Dept of Justice)
Not entirely out of the question that they may have been justified in attempting to apprehend him, no?
Now people are cutting fire hoses to prevent fires from being put out
and when they encountered Gray and he saw them, he took off running.
Now, that's not exactly breaking the law based on that alone I guess, but they were looking for drug dealers, and Gray's arrest record is:
03-20-15 dealing cocaine
08-28-08 possession of narcotics
10-05-12 illegal gambling
01-25-14 possession of narcotics over 10 grams
08-24-07 manufacturing and distribution narcotics
08/29-07 distribution of narcotics
09-16-08 distribution of narcotics
04-16-08 distribution of narcotics
05-09-12 distribution of narcotics
01-04-15 distribution of narcotics
12-31-14 distribution of narcotics
05-13-14 stolen property
07-16-08 distribution of narcotics
03-28-08 possession of narcotics
02-12-08 distribution of narcotics
09-29-13 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 possession of narcotics
03-20-08 burglary
03-20-08 possession of narcotics
09-21-07 distribution of narcotics
04-30-08 unlawful possession (two counts)
(Source Maryland Dept of Justice)
Not entirely out of the question that they may have been justified in attempting to apprehend him, no?
Running from police may be enough to question him but not to arrest him (especially in the fashion they did)? I do not think running from police is a crime. What did they have on him to arrest him? Why haven't we heard anything about that in two weeks?
and when they encountered Gray and he saw them, he took off running.
Now, that's not exactly breaking the law based on that alone I guess, but they were looking for drug dealers, and Gray's arrest record is:
03-20-15 dealing cocaine
08-28-08 possession of narcotics
10-05-12 illegal gambling
01-25-14 possession of narcotics over 10 grams
08-24-07 manufacturing and distribution narcotics
08/29-07 distribution of narcotics
09-16-08 distribution of narcotics
04-16-08 distribution of narcotics
05-09-12 distribution of narcotics
01-04-15 distribution of narcotics
12-31-14 distribution of narcotics
05-13-14 stolen property
07-16-08 distribution of narcotics
03-28-08 possession of narcotics
02-12-08 distribution of narcotics
09-29-13 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 possession of narcotics
03-20-08 burglary
03-20-08 possession of narcotics
09-21-07 distribution of narcotics
04-30-08 unlawful possession (two counts)
(Source Maryland Dept of Justice)
Not entirely out of the question that they may have been justified in attempting to apprehend him, no?
and when they encountered Gray and he saw them, he took off running.
Now, that's not exactly breaking the law based on that alone I guess, but they were looking for drug dealers, and Gray's arrest record is:
03-20-15 dealing cocaine
08-28-08 possession of narcotics
10-05-12 illegal gambling
01-25-14 possession of narcotics over 10 grams
08-24-07 manufacturing and distribution narcotics
08/29-07 distribution of narcotics
09-16-08 distribution of narcotics
04-16-08 distribution of narcotics
05-09-12 distribution of narcotics
01-04-15 distribution of narcotics
12-31-14 distribution of narcotics
05-13-14 stolen property
07-16-08 distribution of narcotics
03-28-08 possession of narcotics
02-12-08 distribution of narcotics
09-29-13 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 possession of narcotics
03-20-08 burglary
03-20-08 possession of narcotics
09-21-07 distribution of narcotics
04-30-08 unlawful possession (two counts)
(Source Maryland Dept of Justice)
Not entirely out of the question that they may have been justified in attempting to apprehend him, no?
Running from police may be enough to question him but not to arrest him (especially in the fashion they did)? I do not think running from police is a crime. What did they have on him to arrest him? Why haven't we heard anything about that in two weeks?
Don't know the answer. Also not sure how you reasonably aprehend somebody, peacefully, that is trying to get away from you.
RE: RE: The police were investigating drug dealing in the area,
and when they encountered Gray and he saw them, he took off running.
Now, that's not exactly breaking the law based on that alone I guess, but they were looking for drug dealers, and Gray's arrest record is:
03-20-15 dealing cocaine
08-28-08 possession of narcotics
10-05-12 illegal gambling
01-25-14 possession of narcotics over 10 grams
08-24-07 manufacturing and distribution narcotics
08/29-07 distribution of narcotics
09-16-08 distribution of narcotics
04-16-08 distribution of narcotics
05-09-12 distribution of narcotics
01-04-15 distribution of narcotics
12-31-14 distribution of narcotics
05-13-14 stolen property
07-16-08 distribution of narcotics
03-28-08 possession of narcotics
02-12-08 distribution of narcotics
09-29-13 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 possession of narcotics
03-20-08 burglary
03-20-08 possession of narcotics
09-21-07 distribution of narcotics
04-30-08 unlawful possession (two counts)
(Source Maryland Dept of Justice)
Not entirely out of the question that they may have been justified in attempting to apprehend him, no?
That certainly deserves the death penalty.
Was the question about the punishment fitting the crime? Or was the question "what law did he break?"
RE: RE: RE: The police were investigating drug dealing in the area,
and when they encountered Gray and he saw them, he took off running.
Now, that's not exactly breaking the law based on that alone I guess, but they were looking for drug dealers, and Gray's arrest record is:
03-20-15 dealing cocaine
08-28-08 possession of narcotics
10-05-12 illegal gambling
01-25-14 possession of narcotics over 10 grams
08-24-07 manufacturing and distribution narcotics
08/29-07 distribution of narcotics
09-16-08 distribution of narcotics
04-16-08 distribution of narcotics
05-09-12 distribution of narcotics
01-04-15 distribution of narcotics
12-31-14 distribution of narcotics
05-13-14 stolen property
07-16-08 distribution of narcotics
03-28-08 possession of narcotics
02-12-08 distribution of narcotics
09-29-13 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 possession of narcotics
03-20-08 burglary
03-20-08 possession of narcotics
09-21-07 distribution of narcotics
04-30-08 unlawful possession (two counts)
(Source Maryland Dept of Justice)
Not entirely out of the question that they may have been justified in attempting to apprehend him, no?
Running from police may be enough to question him but not to arrest him (especially in the fashion they did)? I do not think running from police is a crime. What did they have on him to arrest him? Why haven't we heard anything about that in two weeks?
Don't know the answer. Also not sure how you reasonably aprehend somebody, peacefully, that is trying to get away from you.
Would be nice to know why he needed to be apprehended. Again running from police is not a crime unless it was resisting arrest and in this case the running came before the arrest and apparently was the cause of the arrest.
Which goes back to the original point the poster made to which you asked the question...
Don't break the law, and you're highly unlikely to die at the hands of the police.
Did Mike Brown or Freddie Gray deserve to die? No. Did they both directly put themselves into the situation with police that led to their death? I'd say yes.
Which goes back to the original point the poster made to which you asked the question...
Don't break the law, and you're highly unlikely to die at the hands of the police.
Did Mike Brown or Freddie Gray deserve to die? No. Did they both directly put themselves into the situation with police that led to their death? I'd say yes.
And again what law did he break? There is absolutely no similarity to Mike Brown here.
you can even use force to arrest someone, when appropriate. But the force that it takes to arrest someone is not the force it takes to cause a lethal spinal injury, generally speaking. There are certainly things about this that aren't known, and maybe you could extrapolate from his past dealings with law enforcement that he was less than polite and may have resisted above and beyond the flight. But if the idea that someone could enter custody in apparent good health and end up with a fatal spine injury doesn't trouble you, perhaps you need to reevaluate the way you treat news.
The fact that someone has a checkered past or that he committed a crime to justify his detention (if Gray did) does not mean he deserves anything that comes his way.
Whether he had something to hide, or was actively breaking
the law, his injuries suggest police misconduct while he was in custody. One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other, Britt, unless police are suddenly allowed to assault people who are in their custody.
That said, I'm disheartened that the demonstrations have become violent and possibly corrupted by opportunists.
you can even use force to arrest someone, when appropriate. But the force that it takes to arrest someone is not the force it takes to cause a lethal spinal injury, generally speaking. There are certainly things about this that aren't known, and maybe you could extrapolate from his past dealings with law enforcement that he was less than polite and may have resisted above and beyond the flight. But if the idea that someone could enter custody in apparent good health and end up with a fatal spine injury doesn't trouble you, perhaps you need to reevaluate the way you treat news.
The fact that someone has a checkered past or that he committed a crime to justify his detention (if Gray did) does not mean he deserves anything that comes his way.
The video clearly shows him injured and carried/dragged into the van. He was hurt before the car ride.
The fact that the police cannot come up with a reason why he was arrested is extremely troubling. The fact that they cannot explain his injury caused while being arrested for not doing anything is even more troubling,
But it's abundantly clear that some people (even on this thread) use it to dismiss the broader issues that spark these protests and even worse use it to indict the character of African-American neighborhoods.
There are elements in any society that will use the absence of authority to commit crimes.
That's a joke, right? Didn't the entire nation just witness the video of Walter Scott, the famous felon, running away only to be shot six times in the back?
you can even use force to arrest someone, when appropriate. But the force that it takes to arrest someone is not the force it takes to cause a lethal spinal injury, generally speaking. There are certainly things about this that aren't known, and maybe you could extrapolate from his past dealings with law enforcement that he was less than polite and may have resisted above and beyond the flight. But if the idea that someone could enter custody in apparent good health and end up with a fatal spine injury doesn't trouble you, perhaps you need to reevaluate the way you treat news.
The fact that someone has a checkered past or that he committed a crime to justify his detention (if Gray did) does not mean he deserves anything that comes his way.
The video clearly shows him injured and carried/dragged into the van. He was hurt before the car ride.
The fact that the police cannot come up with a reason why he was arrested is extremely troubling. The fact that they cannot explain his injury caused while being arrested for not doing anything is even more troubling,
Yeah, that's how I viewed it too. His legs are dragging behind him.
Isn't it possible that they tackled him and cause the injury there? Could happen falling off a bike.
Troubling to me is that it took nearly an hour to let him see a doctor.
RE: RE: Why run if you're not doing something wrong?
Which goes back to the original point the poster made to which you asked the question...
Don't break the law, and you're highly unlikely to die at the hands of the police.
Did Mike Brown or Freddie Gray deserve to die? No. Did they both directly put themselves into the situation with police that led to their death? I'd say yes.
And again what law did he break? There is absolutely no similarity to Mike Brown here.
My point of view is that the police were in the area investigating drug related activity. He was arrested last month and in January in the same neighborhood dealing drugs. They wanted to talk to him and he took off. Which led to a chase and apprehension.
I don't believe they singled him out because he was black and randomly decided to chase him down and, in the process, kill him.
Maybe I'm more optimistic than cynical, but if I had to choose between two scenarios on which one was more likely...
Meanwhile we have a trial for a cop killer going on
Here in Rochester. You don't see us rioting here. The criminal (black) knocked a cop (white) down then took his gun, put it under his chin and executed him. Don't see me in the streets.
Two major fires burning, one at a CVS, the other at a Senior Center. Rioters at the CVS fire used switch blades to cut the hoses. This is insanity, and the mayor is gonna have a lot of questions to answer with her comments about "giving people the space to destroy". What in the hell was this lunatic thinking?
Here in Rochester. You don't see us rioting here. The criminal (black) knocked a cop (white) down then took his gun, put it under his chin and executed him. Don't see me in the streets.
These two situations aren't remotely in the same ball park.
Two major fires burning, one at a CVS, the other at a Senior Center. Rioters at the CVS fire used switch blades to cut the hoses. This is insanity, and the mayor is gonna have a lot of questions to answer with her comments about "giving people the space to destroy". What in the hell was this lunatic thinking?
many things are pumped up after the fact. Rodney King is a perfect example he put dozens of cops in peril on a high speed chase not to mention citizens and then resists arrest yet Los Angeles is almost burnt down because of this jerk
1) Criminals have rights
2) Alleged criminals have rights
3) Police get paid and trained to professional defuse and appropriately handle tense situations. Apprently though we have a culture where ther hacks are robitically programmed to shoot anybody who doesn't proptly obey their highness. That is what happens when you take college dropout 2nd amendmant loving morons and give them the badge.
4) Ironic. You are making a statement which is basically saying, don't commit a crime (however minor) or alleged crime, or else you get what you have coming.
By that same logic, one could say the riots are justified...don't kill inocent civilians if you don't want to incite a riot.
RE: RE: Meanwhile we have a trial for a cop killer going on
Here in Rochester. You don't see us rioting here. The criminal (black) knocked a cop (white) down then took his gun, put it under his chin and executed him. Don't see me in the streets.
These two situations aren't remotely in the same ball park.
All I'm saying is that you don't see people rioting over a cop being executed. Were the cops wrong in Baltimore? Yes. But this guy here murdered a police officer and it's peaceful here.
RE: RE: if you don't break the law you don't have an issue
many things are pumped up after the fact. Rodney King is a perfect example he put dozens of cops in peril on a high speed chase not to mention citizens and then resists arrest yet Los Angeles is almost burnt down because of this jerk
1) Criminals have rights
2) Alleged criminals have rights
3) Police get paid and trained to professional defuse and appropriately handle tense situations. Apprently though we have a culture where ther hacks are robitically programmed to shoot anybody who doesn't proptly obey their highness. That is what happens when you take college dropout 2nd amendmant loving morons and give them the badge.
4) Ironic. You are making a statement which is basically saying, don't commit a crime (however minor) or alleged crime, or else you get what you have coming.
By that same logic, one could say the riots are justified...don't kill inocent civilians if you don't want to incite a riot.
I can't tell if you're joking. I hope you are because if you aren't you are one of the dumbest posters in the history of BBI.
RE: RE: if you don't break the law you don't have an issue
many things are pumped up after the fact. Rodney King is a perfect example he put dozens of cops in peril on a high speed chase not to mention citizens and then resists arrest yet Los Angeles is almost burnt down because of this jerk
1) Criminals have rights
2) Alleged criminals have rights
3) Police get paid and trained to professional defuse and appropriately handle tense situations. Apprently though we have a culture where ther hacks are robitically programmed to shoot anybody who doesn't proptly obey their highness. That is what happens when you take college dropout 2nd amendmant loving morons and give them the badge.
4) Ironic. You are making a statement which is basically saying, don't commit a crime (however minor) or alleged crime, or else you get what you have coming.
By that same logic, one could say the riots are justified...don't kill inocent civilians if you don't want to incite a riot.
Police arrest millions of people a year. They go on millions of calls per year. Around 1,000 of those millions and millions of calls and arrests end up in a death.
So your comment about them shooting anyone week doesn't obey is...wrong.
RE: RE: RE: Meanwhile we have a trial for a cop killer going on
Here in Rochester. You don't see us rioting here. The criminal (black) knocked a cop (white) down then took his gun, put it under his chin and executed him. Don't see me in the streets.
These two situations aren't remotely in the same ball park.
All I'm saying is that you don't see people rioting over a cop being executed. Were the cops wrong in Baltimore? Yes. But this guy here murdered a police officer and it's peaceful here.
The guy who murdered a cop is just not going to be the topic of a civil protest by any group in Rochester (or any other city for that matter). Also, people don't riot over police, because cops were never suppressed. For example, policeman's word will always carry more weight than a civilian's in court. How is Rochester doing anyways? I owe that town a visit, and owe myself a garbage plate fix!
RE: RE: RE: Meanwhile we have a trial for a cop killer going on
Here in Rochester. You don't see us rioting here. The criminal (black) knocked a cop (white) down then took his gun, put it under his chin and executed him. Don't see me in the streets.
These two situations aren't remotely in the same ball park.
All I'm saying is that you don't see people rioting over a cop being executed. Were the cops wrong in Baltimore? Yes. But this guy here murdered a police officer and it's peaceful here.
Steve there is a huge difference. The tragic murder of a policeman is not the same as an entire group of people feeling that they have been abused enough by the very people meant to protect them.
In the execution of the policeman in Rochester there is no doubt who the bad guy is. In Baltimore the likely bad guy(s) appear to be covering up and withholding information.
I'm not supporting the violence which is actually hurting the very neighborhood these people live in. It is stupid. But I do understand the reason that caused the riots.
RE: RE: if you don't break the law you don't have an issue
3) Police get paid and trained to professional defuse and appropriately handle tense situations. Apprently though we have a culture where ther hacks are robitically programmed to shoot anybody who doesn't proptly obey their highness. That is what happens when you take college dropout 2nd amendmant loving morons and give them the badge.
The irony of a half-wit like you insulting the intelligence of law enforcement officers. You're either an imbecile or a fucking troll, either way you're awful.
RE: RE: RE: if you don't break the law you don't have an issue
3) Police get paid and trained to professional defuse and appropriately handle tense situations. Apprently though we have a culture where ther hacks are robitically programmed to shoot anybody who doesn't proptly obey their highness. That is what happens when you take college dropout 2nd amendmant loving morons and give them the badge.
The irony of a half-wit like you insulting the intelligence of law enforcement officers. You're either an imbecile or a fucking troll, either way you're awful.
Im actually a Summa Cum Laude Criminal Justice undergrad major. I know this subject as well as anybody.
I happen to know several Cops.
3 with college degrees, 1 without.
The 1 without is a redneck gun nut who when he saw Obama attending the Selma Memorial said "N****** visiting n******," when I challenged the hack he ran on the same lines about blacks lining up to steal air Jordan's at night.
This Cop works in PG County and shot an unarmed black man this summer. I see plenty of D student drop outs like him; fortunately he has been rejected twice by Fairfax County (though even that agency has issues see John Greer or the Feb jail death).
It's disappointing a rather professionally agency like FFX Co still has the same cover our asses our shit don't stick mentality when it comes to law enforcement accountability.
There are many many brave noble professional Cops, but they do themselves a dis service not dis similar to the thugs rioting right now.
When baseball had a major culture of steroid use, one of the reasons it has rapidly dropped is because of the outcry of honest ball players who spoke out and wanted to have integrity and get out the dirty players. They spoke, their union spoke.
It would be nice if law enforcement would have a similar about face, if the good Cops and their PR and Unions would take the lead in changing the message to weed out the ignorant tea bagging hacks.
We don't see that, they shut, cover their ass, or speak out defensively. Until that culture changes I'm afraid this will continue.
It's about assholes using the situation as an excuse and/or opportunity to be assholes.
I understand what the Mayor was trying to do here - give people a little space, some time and an opportunity to protest, grieve. That's not an unreasonable plan, but, they seemed poorly prepared for worst case scenario.
RE: the riots/looting isn't about the Gray killing
It's about assholes using the situation as an excuse and/or opportunity to be assholes.
I understand what the Mayor was trying to do here - give people a little space, some time and an opportunity to protest, grieve. That's not an unreasonable plan, but, they seemed poorly prepared for worst case scenario.
I agree with the first part of your post. There are no doubt thousands of people there who want to use this as a catalyst for positive change, and they're not the ones throwing shit and setting fires.
The second though, how could you NOT foresee this? Ferguson got ugly very quickly. At the very least you've got to be prepared for that possibility.
we don't disagree on either point. you have to plan for the possibility of what occurred tonight. a few of the experts pointed out that you can have them prepared and staged out of sight so as to avoid provoking an already tense situation. if needed, you respond and do what is necessary.
There are plenty of valid points about "police culture." Famously insular and not really helped by the advent of social media (widening the insular group), treating the people who are policed as a "them" is clearly a problem. The almost ubiquitous nature of SWAT teams and their ilk and the "militarization" of police and police training widens the gap between communities and their law enforcement in many instances, at least in perception. And so on and so forth.
But deriding officers as merely dumb, rednecky 2nd Amendment types is a silly caricature, no matter what degrees you claim to possess.
RE: Meanwhile we have a trial for a cop killer going on
is a fucking moron. She basically came out and supported what they did.
"I am not going to prohibit their right ot protest". Great job schmuck. Everyone under the sun knew thsi was going to happen, and she basically didnt do shit to stop it.
She claims there will be order. No there wont be. Your in charge of what happened. Its your city, and what happened is a fucking disgrace. Another huge black eye for America with NOTHING getting accomplished.
I am sick of these protests. Granted I am not an African American, but these retaliations and protests are fucking pathetic.
while there is evidence of the militarization - I think it is grossly overstated. the argument has been because the government made this equipment and training available - it transforms pds into mini-armies. this argument conveniently steps the fact that for the past two decades community policing has been the dominant grant funding and training mechanism. another major influence has been the compstat model developed by Bratton and his braintrust.
There are plenty of valid points about "police culture." Famously insular and not really helped by the advent of social media (widening the insular group), treating the people who are policed as a "them" is clearly a problem. The almost ubiquitous nature of SWAT teams and their ilk and the "militarization" of police and police training widens the gap between communities and their law enforcement in many instances, at least in perception. And so on and so forth.
But deriding officers as merely dumb, rednecky 2nd Amendment types is a silly caricature, no matter what degrees you claim to possess.
I agree completely with the first paragraph.
Not the second. I'm sorry but outside of wealthy municipalities where there is a huge demand to work in...your inner cities and less off burbs and countryside are littered with a lot of Cops who were C/D students, shoplifters or jock bullies who love the power of being in charge and enjoy shooting guns. The good professionally cops need to speak out against these hacks and frankly we need to make it so we can attract more intelligent, educated, cops who are able to deal with the socially disturbed people.
while there is evidence of the militarization - I think it is grossly overstated. the argument has been because the government made this equipment and training available - it transforms pds into mini-armies. this argument conveniently steps the fact that for the past two decades community policing has been the dominant grant funding and training mechanism. another major influence has been the compstat model developed by Bratton and his braintrust.
Fair points all around, and even if I'm right I don't think it is terribly pertinent to the discussion at hand. Whether you have ACU pattern uniforms and MRAPs or not, this seems to have more to do with run of the mill grievances (excessive violence during arrests, other alleged mistreatment) than the litany of SWAT team horror stories.
In comment 12252808 bc4life said:
[quote] is hardly a moron. IMHO, she made a bad decision by not ensuring there was a contingency plan, but a moron - really?
and yes, there will be order...and a painful lesson learned. [/quote
Please. This wasnt a bad decision by any means. Its a catastrophic one. Its almost like she wanted this to happen. Then comes out with harsh words about what was done. Please.
There are plenty of valid points about "police culture." Famously insular and not really helped by the advent of social media (widening the insular group), treating the people who are policed as a "them" is clearly a problem. The almost ubiquitous nature of SWAT teams and their ilk and the "militarization" of police and police training widens the gap between communities and their law enforcement in many instances, at least in perception. And so on and so forth.
But deriding officers as merely dumb, rednecky 2nd Amendment types is a silly caricature, no matter what degrees you claim to possess.
I agree completely with the first paragraph.
Not the second. I'm sorry but outside of wealthy municipalities where there is a huge demand to work in...your inner cities and less off burbs and countryside are littered with a lot of Cops who were C/D students, shoplifters or jock bullies who love the power of being in charge and enjoy shooting guns. The good professionally cops need to speak out against these hacks and frankly we need to make it so we can attract more intelligent, educated, cops who are able to deal with the socially disturbed people.
That has not been my experience. The two types that tend to last are the ones you would like to see (intelligent, dedicated) and the ones who can figure out how to do enough to stay employed but not enough to rock the boat. The overzealous don't tend to last very long - either they fuck up or some combination of mentorship and learning the hard way shapes them into one of those two categories.
is hardly a moron. IMHO, she made a bad decision by not ensuring there was a contingency plan, but a moron - really?
and yes, there will be order...and a painful lesson learned.
no, the lesson won't be learned.
More spending will go on buying surplus equipment from the government military contractors instead of training Cops to deal professionally with public or recruit better stock and the blue shield will continue to perpetuate their own self interest to the detriment of the public they claim they serveand deserve an unconditional medal.
There are plenty of valid points about "police culture." Famously insular and not really helped by the advent of social media (widening the insular group), treating the people who are policed as a "them" is clearly a problem. The almost ubiquitous nature of SWAT teams and their ilk and the "militarization" of police and police training widens the gap between communities and their law enforcement in many instances, at least in perception. And so on and so forth.
But deriding officers as merely dumb, rednecky 2nd Amendment types is a silly caricature, no matter what degrees you claim to possess.
I agree completely with the first paragraph.
Not the second. I'm sorry but outside of wealthy municipalities where there is a huge demand to work in...your inner cities and less off burbs and countryside are littered with a lot of Cops who were C/D students, shoplifters or jock bullies who love the power of being in charge and enjoy shooting guns. The good professionally cops need to speak out against these hacks and frankly we need to make it so we can attract more intelligent, educated, cops who are able to deal with the socially disturbed people.
That has not been my experience. The two types that tend to last are the ones you would like to see (intelligent, dedicated) and the ones who can figure out how to do enough to stay employed but not enough to rock the boat. The overzealous don't tend to last very long - either they fuck up or some combination of mentorship and learning the hard way shapes them into one of those two categories.
That idiot we saw in SC, that racist hack I know, who never attended college, hates gays, and believes blacks want handouts, I'm afraid are far from a small minority especially in the cities and red districts.
I'm going to regret not ignoring you but here goes - FYI a lot, if not all of that military equipment was granted which means it was free or obtained at a drastically reduced price. and it really doesn't impact training.
if I may ask, where did you obtain your degree in CJ?
Regarding your assertion that a Mayor of a major city would not learn from a decision that led to millions in property damage and personal injuries ...well, I'll just go back to ignoring you.
I think the militarization argument is most compelling re: SWAT raids in support of warrant service. If needed, by all means use them. However, you really have to balance risk/reward because so much can go wrong. A similar argument can be made re: vehicle pursuits - does the risk associated with the tactic outweigh the threat posed by the crime/offense
Perceived because we still don't know how this guy's neck was broken. The way to eliminate perceived injustice is to improve accountability, not hide information behind an investigation that many will consider biased.
Then if there is an injustice, render punishment commeasurate with the crime and the riots will go away
BUT, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a more illogical, unreasonable, wrong headed and (yes moronic) statement from a public official.
riots were caused by lowlifes, punk kids, and anarchists to act up under the guise of a reasonable cause. are you saying that those people are so uncivilized they cannot express their opinion or seek justice through other means?
on the streets of inner cities to maintain order but we all know there is an element in each inner city that is there just waiting for an opportunity to do what is being done in Baltimore. Disenfranchised young males with no sense of tomorrow or a future. If we don't figure out a way to integrate them into society and give them a stake and a sense of being part of it, this will happen again and again. You can't shoot them all so you need to figure it out. This is a very small percentage, but they exist.
BUT, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a more illogical, unreasonable, wrong headed and (yes moronic) statement from a public official.
riots were caused by lowlifes, punk kids, and anarchists to act up under the guise of a reasonable cause. are you saying that those people are so uncivilized they cannot express their opinion or seek justice through other means?
How about unqualified or failed in her biggest moment? He lack of common sense was astounding and will coast that city millions. Milions it doesn't have which means federal $$ which means $$ that could and should have been spent elsewhere. The bill will be enormous. She is not fit for that office. He denial of the statement made on camera is also sign of an unwillingness to own up to the statement she made. She may have said it wrong but there was obviously a plan to not engage rioters. She and others in charge obviously had no plan and no idea what to do. The amount of damage she done is at her feet. Maybe not all but a large part of it.
Perceived because we still don't know how this guy's neck was broken. The way to eliminate perceived injustice is to improve accountability, not hide information behind an investigation that many will consider biased.
Then if there is an injustice, render punishment commeasurate with the crime and the riots will go away
Perception is really the operative concept here. This particular act seems like it was an injustice and no doubt there are other perceived injustices that brought things to a boil. But the famously rational people who set fire to cars and loot stores aren't necessarily going to be placated by the news that this guy or that one or five of them are going to be put on trial. And if a jury of that guy's peers comes back not guilty or deadlocks, what then?
Is the answer to back off? Less aggressive policing? Because Baltimore is a hub for drug trafficking in the mid-Atlantic, particularly the traffic in heroin, so the decision of law enforcement to "back off" and be less aggressive in their policing is pregnant with consequences for surrounding cities and states. The mayor is an idiot, but people who tell you that there are easy answers to any of the myriad problems these riots implicate is just as stupid.
gangs using the pretext of the gray case to riot, loot, etc. the people who are truly angry about the gray case - like gray's mother - are imploring people to protest peacefully and to stop tearing down the city.
Accountability means that those who commit an injustice will be held accountable. Whoever broke the guys neck will be subject to the same laws that the protesters are. No hiding or obscuring the truth. Professionals must be professional even when they fuck up.
We are talking about tens of millions of dollars of damages to public and provate property. That number would absolutely be lowered if LE imporved their accountability to the people they serve.
In general, I don't think people riot unless they feel oppressed enough to just not give a fuck anymore. But this is ridiculous. These folks don't give a shit about Gray.
In general, I don't think people riot unless they feel oppressed enough to just not give a fuck anymore. But this is ridiculous. These folks don't give a shit about Gray.
Meh. Some of this is probably anger. But there are other people who just see an opportunity.
even if you did not know Gray. However, it seems that this type of behavior is being encouraged by some and allowed to occur so as to not show too strong a response by the police. And I understand that too, but you cannot allow groups of lawless teenagers and others to destroy a city like that. It's absurd. The people in charge are directly liable for what went on.
Maybe these riots keep happening because the rioters and looters feel some sort of connection to legions of other oppressed peoples around the country. Or maybe the protests happen because of that connection and sense of injustice, and those who would riot and loot exploit the situation to commit wanton theft and violence. There is some overlap, to be sure, but I think a lot more of this rationalization for setting one's own neighborhood alight comes from people removed from the situation.
Reducing collateral damage by a number as low as 10%
"Failed in her biggest moment" I would challenge anyone to find a better description of her decision. I've been watching this off and on and I sensed she was trying to do what Mayor's have to do in these situations - walk the line between both camps. But, I have no idea why she would think allowing people to damage property would be a viable strategy.
Maybe these riots keep happening because the rioters and looters feel some sort of connection to legions of other oppressed peoples around the country. Or maybe the protests happen because of that connection and sense of injustice, and those who would riot and loot exploit the situation to commit wanton theft and violence. There is some overlap, to be sure, but I think a lot more of this rationalization for setting one's own neighborhood alight comes from people removed from the situation.
A good question. And one stat I'd like to see might shed some light on it. During the interviews at the scenes of violence last night, a number of times people self-identified as local residents stated that a number of the people they saw looting were not residents of the neighborhood. And I did see one person get arrested for obstructing the police who, by appearance, looked like one of the Guy Fawkesian anarchists who showed up at Ferguson to make a bad situation worse. So the stat I'd like to see is this:
"Of those arrested, how many of them were residents of the neighborhood where they were arrested?"
I think that might give us some useful information.
A lot of the looters were identified as local high school students,
The police were alerted prior by twitter notices being put out among local high school students that they planned to loot and destroy the mall and other local stores.
Almost all the people arrested thus far are from Baltimore.
Quote:
With Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake blaming outside agitators for the violence at yesterdays Freddie Gray rally, Baltimore police tonight released the names of 35 people arrested in connection with the unrest.
Nearly all of them are from Baltimore City. Thirty-one were adults, mostly males in their late 20s and early 30s but ranging up to age 47. Four were juveniles.
Can't speak as to the accuracy of this, just passing it on. Link - ( New Window )
was coming from outside, specifically from the chattering classes. Aside from the stray Guy Fawkes devotee, who might be risking physical violence by showing his face in downtown Baltimore, the sorts of people who riot and loot tend not to be particularly mobile, especially when transportation networks are disrupted by the unrest.
This wasn't a protest and I was hoping to see some rubber bullets fired. If you are acting out against innocent people or burning buildings down, you are a scumbag and a criminal.
Almost all the people arrested thus far are from Baltimore.
Quote:
With Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake blaming outside agitators for the violence at yesterdays Freddie Gray rally, Baltimore police tonight released the names of 35 people arrested in connection with the unrest.
Nearly all of them are from Baltimore City. Thirty-one were adults, mostly males in their late 20s and early 30s but ranging up to age 47. Four were juveniles.
Can't speak as to the accuracy of this, just passing it on. Link - ( New Window )
Nearly all from Baltimore, but how many from that particular neighborhood? They had helicopter shots of a mall being looted by people who drove up in cars. Do we have a mobile group of criminals who are hitting targets of opportunity, or is it really neighborhood residents?
The incident stemmed from a flier that circulated widely among city school students via social media about a purge to take place at 3 p.m., starting at Mondawmin Mall and ending downtown. Such memes have been known to circulate regularly among city school students, based on the film "The Purge," about what would happen if all laws were suspended.
is that everything being said in this thread is almost word for word what was said in the sixties about the urban rioting that occurred then. It almost seems like Groundhog Day. Plenty of insightful analysis was published in the aftermath of the '60s riots. Nothing new here.
Perceived because we still don't know how this guy's neck was broken. The way to eliminate perceived injustice is to improve accountability, not hide information behind an investigation that many will consider biased.
Then if there is an injustice, render punishment commeasurate with the crime and the riots will go away
was in the old TPF in NYC during the riots in the 60's. They were the NYPD's front line on rioting and the forerunner of today's SWAT teams. He used to tell me that in a riot, the crowd embraces the mentality of the lowest common denominator. It didn't matter if they were upper class kids from Columbia University or a resident from the toughest street in Harlem. In a crowd, he said they were both the same and both devolved down to the level of the angriest and most violent member of the crowd.
He was later stationed at the 28 in Harlem during the infamous riots of the late 60's. He said that the local residents were the most appreciative of police efforts to beat back the riots as they didn't want them to continue.
The only way to handle this situation is to forcibly put it down, then make sure that the reasons it started are honestly addressed.
NW Baltimore has been a powderkeg, waiting to blow for a long time. Pent up frustration and years of disenfranchised folks seeing a bad environment remain that way.
It's important to note that a peaceful protest was going on in the city in the week prior to Saturday. Then, the peaceful protest turned violent when those "outside agitators" came to the city and stirred up anger. That was controlled pretty quickly by Baltimore City Police and I assume the Mayor thought that if they could handle that, they could handle whatever was to happen next. But nobody could have expected what happened last night.
Most of what was seen on TV last night was people with very little means seeing an opportunity. The police force was stretched thin, with riots scattered across a city that is 80 square miles. Meanwhile, the Orioles and the MLB failed to call off the game until 6:30 or so, forcing many in the force to set up barricades to prevent the violence from reaching downtown.
The Mayor should have called in the Guard sooner, absolutely. How much sooner? I'm not sure. Like a previous poster said, it's an awfully difficult balance to maintain... and prior to 3 p.m. yesterday, the city was peaceful and all there was to warn anyone was Twitter chatter - something I'm sure happens quite a bit.
I hope this doesn't continue today. With a 10 p.m. curfew and the National Guard in town, I don't think it will. But what I do know is NW Baltimore isn't your average community... hell, it's not your average ghetto (for lack of a better term). And I hope the police, who can't seem to get a grip on the neighborhoods on a normal day, have a good plan for tonight.
In Baltimore outside of the inner harbor and fells point and say it is a great town. It's essentially Camden with sports teams and a harbor.
I have been there several times. I am a chef, and one of the line cooks I work with is from Baltimore. We have been down there several times to see his elderly Mom. Although the neighbourhood is poor where she lives, the people are very nice.
It is not as bad as Camden N.J., which is the sphincter of the world. It is the ugliest, most depressing blight to society that I can name. I hate Camden N.J.
What kinds of actions will it take to make it widely understood that all policing is racist terror, and justice can only come with its permanent abolition?
And what solution would this genius suggest as an alternative to having cops?
In Baltimore outside of the inner harbor and fells point and say it is a great town. It's essentially Camden with sports teams and a harbor.
You clearly haven't been to Locust Point, Little Italy, Harbor East, Canton, Mount Vernon, Federal Hill or any of the other number of neighborhoods in the city where people are kind and culture and history are rich. Honestly, there's a lot more to see in Baltimore than the Inner Harbor and you'll find the least amount of locals there.
In other words, you're talking out of your ass.
I'm not sure meeting a lot of the locals is something you'd really
Why is that, Greg? Would you care to elaborate or can I assume your opinion of the city stems from the general nose-high, stick up your ass attitude you learned in Charlottesville?
RE: Meanwhile we have a trial for a cop killer going on
Here in Rochester. You don't see us rioting here. The criminal (black) knocked a cop (white) down then took his gun, put it under his chin and executed him. Don't see me in the streets.
What is there to riot about? A criminal was caught and is on trial. Isn't that how the legal system is supposed to work?
People really show their hand when they make this particular type of statement. You are clearly looking at this as a white vs black race issue. It's not. As others have noted, Baltimore PD is 50% black.
Like I don't understand this counterpoint in the slightest, other than "hey a black man killed a white cop and we aren't rioting, so why should people riot when a [white] cop kills a black man?!"
Which completely ignores the fact that in one situation a COP is killing someone vs a criminal. Cops don't equate to criminals. This is a false equivalency.
These riots are fucking disgusting. They tear down all the hard work that people who are trying to enact change the right way have done. They reinforce the stereotypes perpetuating these problem. They make educated individuals and people who are trying to open the eyes of those who don't see the problems in this country look like absolute fools. They make people quate protests to riots. They divide us even further. And most importantly, they harm INNOCENT PEOPLE.
This is incredibly fucked up and looting is so opportunistic and wrong.
I don't understand why this happens. It makes me so fucking angry. Are people so stupid to see that this is going to make things worse? Or are they selfish enough that they don't give a fuck, they just want to loot a store and get free shit, even if their actions are a detriment to their movement towards equal treatment by the legal system.
It's always 1 step forward, five steps back. ALWAYS.
nothing will EVER change if people keep selfishly doing stupid shit like this. I understand an angry protest. Violence is inexcusable, but is something that I can see occurring - to a point - when tensions are running high (not saying I support it, just saying that I can see how emotions can escalate to violence).
Looting is fucking baffling. Looting is selfish. Looting are shithead burglars taking advantage of the situation to rob and steal. Fuck these people. Fuck all the people rioting and looting and undoing all the hard work that the honest individuals with truly noble intensions have put forward.
Oh, I didn't need to go to Charlottesville to think I'm better than
Here in Rochester. You don't see us rioting here. The criminal (black) knocked a cop (white) down then took his gun, put it under his chin and executed him. Don't see me in the streets.
These two situations aren't remotely in the same ball park.
All I'm saying is that you don't see people rioting over a cop being executed. Were the cops wrong in Baltimore? Yes. But this guy here murdered a police officer and it's peaceful here.
Just completely missing the point.
Why would people riot over a cop being killed by a criminal (that is tragic by the way, and I hope they throw away the murderer forever)?
That makes no sense. The situations aren't even remotely comparable. A cop killing someone in their custody is totally different than a criminal killing a cop.
What is there to riot against? Rioting against criminals?
the rumor about the gangs teaming up to take out police officers was totally untrue (despite being repeated by the Chief of Police at his press conference.) Gang members: We did not make truce to harm cops - ( New Window )
It's the first intelligence report in human history that appears to be mistaken. I'm aghast!
the rumor about the gangs teaming up to take out police officers was totally untrue (despite being repeated by the Chief of Police at his press conference.) Gang members: We did not make truce to harm cops - ( New Window )
I don't know whether it was true or not. However, I'm not sure I'd accept the words of the Bloods and Crips as gospel.
"Failed in her biggest moment" I would challenge anyone to find a better description of her decision. I've been watching this off and on and I sensed she was trying to do what Mayor's have to do in these situations - walk the line between both camps. But, I have no idea why she would think allowing people to damage property would be a viable strategy.
Leadership is easy when all the status quo is the norm. Even if the status quo is a shitty situation which has ben the case in Balt for years. But this mayor decided to abdicate all responsibility fior the safety and protection of property to every citizen of her city by trying to play the safe rout. Unacceptable regardless of one's feeling on all the things that led up to this. Sad for the people of that place.
"It's a very difficult balancing act because while we tried to make sure they were protected from the cars, ya know, the things that were going on we also gave those who wished to destroy space to do that as well"
Later that night...
"I never said, nor would I ever say that we are giving people space to destroy our city, so my words should not be twisted"
Twisted? Maybe you just need to remind yourself what's already come out of your mouth. A public official who says that IMO shouldn't be in that position. There's really only one way to say it: she is a gotdamm fool...
Saw this elsewhere and thought it was 100% right on
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
I don't know what sparked this, but the original message of protest is completely forgotten while people loot liquor stores and check cashing places.
Just the worst.
At first I felt that way and now I wonder if the true message with all this stuff is that people are just fed up with the system and these events are merely the sparks that ignite the flames. Clearly this is not about Gray. But that doesn't mean it's not about something that is a problem we should look at.
I don't know what sparked this, but the original message of protest is completely forgotten while people loot liquor stores and check cashing places.
Just the worst.
At first I felt that way and now I wonder if the true message with all this stuff is that people are just fed up with the system and these events are merely the sparks that ignite the flames. Clearly this is not about Gray. But that doesn't mean it's not about something that is a problem we should look at.
Those truly wanting change are also disgusted by these riots, which is not only taking away from the original intent of the protests but also do almost irreparable damage to the lives of the locals. And many of these looters are opportunities, who couldn't give a shit about Gray or anyone else. They just want free stuffs when opportunities present themselves.
Destroying your own community never has a positive outcome
It's pretty much the worst possible thing you can do if you're angry about your environment being shitty, because it's only going to make things worse.
RE: Destroying your own community never has a positive outcome
It's pretty much the worst possible thing you can do if you're angry about your environment being shitty, because it's only going to make things worse.
They were talking about that CVS having took years to be built in that area. You know that CVS will never return. And probably no other store will return to that location anytime soon.
I would say there are opportunists but opportunism can hardly
explain all of what's going on. You have to feel pretty fucking disenfranchised to burn your community down. And that doesn't happen overnight because some guy you probably didn't even know got killed. That has to happen over a lifetime of feeling oppressed by the circumstances that surround you.
RE: RE: Destroying your own community never has a positive outcome
It's pretty much the worst possible thing you can do if you're angry about your environment being shitty, because it's only going to make things worse.
They were talking about that CVS having took years to be built in that area. You know that CVS will never return. And probably no other store will return to that location anytime soon.
And Baltimore isn't Detroit, the proximity to other thriving cities means that capital and the like aren't simply going to pick up and leave, never to return. But it could set a city with a number of big advantages back a decade or two.
"It's a very difficult balancing act because while we tried to make sure they were protected from the cars, ya know, the things that were going on we also gave those who wished to destroy space to do that as well"
Later that night...
"I never said, nor would I ever say that we are giving people space to destroy our city, so my words should not be twisted"
Twisted? Maybe you just need to remind yourself what's already come out of your mouth. A public official who says that IMO shouldn't be in that position. There's really only one way to say it: she is a gotdamm fool...
It was a terrible look for her. I mean, can you extend the benefit of the doubt that she was stressed beyond belief at watching her city be burned down? Sure, but that was a really bad moment caught on TV.
like a CVS & Cell Phone store get burnt out & looted, they get replaced by Liquor Stores & Check Cashing places. Take a look at Watts/Compton years after the riots.
RE: Saw this elsewhere and thought it was 100% right on
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
RE: I would say there are opportunists but opportunism can hardly
explain all of what's going on. You have to feel pretty fucking disenfranchised to burn your community down. And that doesn't happen overnight because some guy you probably didn't even know got killed. That has to happen over a lifetime of feeling oppressed by the circumstances that surround you.
Armchair sociological analysis doesn't really address this. Projecting deep societal frustrations onto teenagers says a lot more about you than it does about the folks breaking things and stealing shit.
Good luck getting anyone to ever open a business there again. I'm guessing there was already only the most basic of services available.
Situations like this evoke a wide range of emotions. I think my posting history is enough to show that I'm a big believer that police brutality and abuses are a huge problem in this country. I can understand the anger and helplessness that inspires. And being poor is miserable, I get that. There really isn't true poverty on the global scale in this country, but relative poverty in a country possessing incredible wealth is bad enough. I was in some rough financial shape for a while when both my wife and I were out of work, and we had to get some help from WIC and food banks. We weren't even poor by American standards yet and it was a horrible time.
Engaging in self-destructive behavior like rioting and looting makes it very hard to stay particularly sympathetic, though. Making a bad situation worse tends to negate whatever legitimate grievances you may have.
RE: RE: Saw this elsewhere and thought it was 100% right on
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
That's an unfortunate story, and among the many questions it begs the one that jumps out at me is where do you intervene? We can all agree it shouldn't be when that kid gets picked up for dealing, though it probably will be. But is the issue a CPS issue? Is it an issue of Dad's incarceration, if that is the problem? Mom's substance abuse, if that's the issue? Or is it a social issue, that will require a social solution but will likely endure with poorly timed state interventions that solve some problems but exacerbate others?
RE: RE: I would say there are opportunists but opportunism can hardly
explain all of what's going on. You have to feel pretty fucking disenfranchised to burn your community down. And that doesn't happen overnight because some guy you probably didn't even know got killed. That has to happen over a lifetime of feeling oppressed by the circumstances that surround you.
Armchair sociological analysis doesn't really address this. Projecting deep societal frustrations onto teenagers says a lot more about you than it does about the folks breaking things and stealing shit.
Oh, ok. No reason to figure out why this shit keeps happening, I guess. We'll just keep rounding up the looters until it's some other city's turn to burn.
it says that they see an opportunity, and that they're piggybacking off the tens of thousands who are mad as hell and want to march and protest and picket and yell at anyone who will listen.
RE: RE: Saw this elsewhere and thought it was 100% right on
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
Excellent post. The first part is very profound.
Regarding the crime, I empathize with those who truly live that struggle. But the vast majoriry of these rioting kids are not living in a situation like the one posted.
The real problem with the system is that those clamoring for these changes in the system, are supported by those that are fucking it up. When presidents, governors and mayors ask for more taxes, they are not putting the money to help fix rhings like education and social work. They blow it and then keep asking for more and the middle class get desensitized to it.
Truly a sad state of affairs.
RE: RE: RE: Saw this elsewhere and thought it was 100% right on
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
That's an unfortunate story, and among the many questions it begs the one that jumps out at me is where do you intervene? We can all agree it shouldn't be when that kid gets picked up for dealing, though it probably will be. But is the issue a CPS issue? Is it an issue of Dad's incarceration, if that is the problem? Mom's substance abuse, if that's the issue? Or is it a social issue, that will require a social solution but will likely endure with poorly timed state interventions that solve some problems but exacerbate others?
Sometimes dune it is literally a combination of all of those factors. And where do I intervene? On the block. With the dealers and fiends, pimps and prostitutes. I spent 6 years in the National Guard and never had a gun pointed at me. That's happened 4 times at my job, including once by the police swat team because I matched the description of a shooter in the area.
What I personally do is connect families to resources in the community to help them overcome whatever struggle they may be dealing with, be it mental health, drug abuse, getting an education, etc. But in truth that's what we "try" to do. By the time people reach us it's usually too late and we're just another agent of a system that has failed them for a lifetime. I have what I'd call 2 true success stories in my years as a social worker. Over a dozen clients have died, I've been around for two of those-discovered a young man after an OD and arrived at another's house where he had just OD'd, just happened to visit that day and ended up doing CPR on someone for the first (and hopefully only) time ever.
Good luck getting anyone to ever open a business there again. I'm guessing there was already only the most basic of services available.
Situations like this evoke a wide range of emotions. I think my posting history is enough to show that I'm a big believer that police brutality and abuses are a huge problem in this country. I can understand the anger and helplessness that inspires. And being poor is miserable, I get that. There really isn't true poverty on the global scale in this country, but relative poverty in a country possessing incredible wealth is bad enough. I was in some rough financial shape for a while when both my wife and I were out of work, and we had to get some help from WIC and food banks. We weren't even poor by American standards yet and it was a horrible time.
Engaging in self-destructive behavior like rioting and looting makes it very hard to stay particularly sympathetic, though. Making a bad situation worse tends to negate whatever legitimate grievances you may have.
Also well said.
Truth be told most days I feel a helluva lot more like
some strange combination of babysitter/bounty hunter than anything I studied to do. Am I applying micro level practice principles when I meet someone? Of course. But I've also gotta worry about the neon sign blinking over my head that screams "Outsider! Dont belong here! Might even be a cop with the warrant squad!"
For some, such injuries have been inflicted by what is known as a "rough ride" an "unsanctioned technique" in which police vans are driven to cause "injury or pain" to unbuckled, handcuffed detainees, former city police officer Charles J. Key testified as an expert five years ago in a lawsuit over Johnson's subsequent death.
Freddy Gray wasn't even the first person killed by them. Link - ( New Window )
Now, tonight, I turn on the news and I see politicians calling for young people in Baltimore to remain peaceful and "nonviolent." These well-intended pleas strike me as the right answer to the wrong question. To understand the question, it's worth remembering what, specifically, happened to Freddie Gray. An officer made eye contact with Gray. Gray, for unknown reasons, ran. The officer and his colleagues then detained Gray. They found him in possession of a switchblade. They arrested him while he yelled in pain. And then, within an hour, his spine was mostly severed. A week later, he was dead. What specifically was the crime here? What particular threat did Freddie Gray pose? Why is mere eye contact and then running worthy of detention at the hands of the state? Why is Freddie Gray dead?
When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse.
The people now calling for nonviolence are not prepared to answer these questions. Many of them are charged with enforcing the very policies that led to Gray's death, and yet they can offer no rational justification for Gray's death and so they appeal for calm. But there was no official appeal for calm when Gray was being arrested. There was no appeal for calm when Jerriel Lyles was assaulted. (The blow was so heavy. My eyes swelled up. Blood was dripping down my nose and out my eye.) There was no claim for nonviolence on behalf of Venus Green. (Bitch, you aint no better than any of the other old black bitches I have locked up.) There was no plea for peace on behalf of Starr Brown. (They slammed me down on my face, Brown added, her voice cracking. The skin was gone on my face.")
When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is "correct" or "wise," any more than a forest fire can be "correct" or "wise." Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community.
For some, such injuries have been inflicted by what is known as a "rough ride" an "unsanctioned technique" in which police vans are driven to cause "injury or pain" to unbuckled, handcuffed detainees, former city police officer Charles J. Key testified as an expert five years ago in a lawsuit over Johnson's subsequent death.
Freddy Gray wasn't even the first person killed by them. Link - ( New Window )
I have a lot of friends in Baltimore and spend a lot of time there, have even considered moving there. Anyway, one night 2 summers ago a convertible with 4 young black guys was cruising around. This was on Lombard near the Harbor. They were hooting and hollering, the guys in the back seat were occasionally propping themselves up and sitting on the top of the back seat near the trunk. They were being goofy and having fun. I guess you could argue that the driver was distracted, but it didn't warrant the response that came. BPD pulled them over, two cops got out, and proceeded to pull both guys out of the back seat and lay into them. The light changed and we drove on, but I was positive I would be seeing it on the news the next day but I never heard anything about it. Most of my friends live in gentrifying neighborhoods in East or near Druid Hill Park and they'll tell you straight up: I'm more afraid of the cops than I am the drug dealers".
The most sensational case in Baltimore involved Johnson, a 43-year-old plumber who was arrested for public urination. He was handcuffed and placed in a transport van in good health. He emerged a quadriplegic.
Before he died, he complained to his doctor that he was not buckled into his seat when the police van "made a sharp turn," sending him "face first" into the interior of the van, court records state. He was "violently thrown around the back of the vehicle as [police officers] drove in an aggressive fashion, taking turns so as to injure [Johnson] who was helplessly cuffed," the lawsuit stated.
Johnson, who suffered a fractured neck, died two weeks later of pneumonia caused by his paralysis. His family sued, and a jury agreed that three officers were negligent in the way they treated Johnson. The initial $7.4 million award, however, was eventually reduced to $219,000 by Maryland's Court of Special Appeals because state law caps such payouts.
This family was screwed in so many different ways.
The 43 year old plumber (who I'm assuming is the father) gets a broken neck through malicious intent for a public urination ticket.
They sue the family through what I assume was at least a lengthy lawsuit.
They receive a payout of 7.4 million, but this is reduced to $210,000.
I wonder how much of that they received after taxes and legal fees.
The most sensational case in Baltimore involved Johnson, a 43-year-old plumber who was arrested for public urination. He was handcuffed and placed in a transport van in good health. He emerged a quadriplegic.
Before he died, he complained to his doctor that he was not buckled into his seat when the police van "made a sharp turn," sending him "face first" into the interior of the van, court records state. He was "violently thrown around the back of the vehicle as [police officers] drove in an aggressive fashion, taking turns so as to injure [Johnson] who was helplessly cuffed," the lawsuit stated.
Johnson, who suffered a fractured neck, died two weeks later of pneumonia caused by his paralysis. His family sued, and a jury agreed that three officers were negligent in the way they treated Johnson. The initial $7.4 million award, however, was eventually reduced to $219,000 by Maryland's Court of Special Appeals because state law caps such payouts.
This family was screwed in so many different ways.
The 43 year old plumber (who I'm assuming is the father) gets a broken neck through malicious intent for a public urination ticket.
They sue the family through what I assume was at least a lengthy lawsuit.
They receive a payout of 7.4 million, but this is reduced to $210,000.
I wonder how much of that they received after taxes and legal fees.
Really really sad.
Not sure about legal fees, but taxes don't apply to these types of payments.
no one thought to place cameras in transport vehicles. body-cams on officers or in very car may be cost prohibitive - but there are not that many transport vehicles.
it will be interesting to hear what other passenger in transport van has to say.
At this point, looks like he may have sustained neck injury prior to being placed in van. then, if in fact there was a rough ride or even a regular ride without being belted in - could be enough to turn a fracture into a larger break.
it would appear that the mistakes made here are really about no-brain, best practices.
The most sensational case in Baltimore involved Johnson, a 43-year-old plumber who was arrested for public urination. He was handcuffed and placed in a transport van in good health. He emerged a quadriplegic.
Before he died, he complained to his doctor that he was not buckled into his seat when the police van "made a sharp turn," sending him "face first" into the interior of the van, court records state. He was "violently thrown around the back of the vehicle as [police officers] drove in an aggressive fashion, taking turns so as to injure [Johnson] who was helplessly cuffed," the lawsuit stated.
Johnson, who suffered a fractured neck, died two weeks later of pneumonia caused by his paralysis. His family sued, and a jury agreed that three officers were negligent in the way they treated Johnson. The initial $7.4 million award, however, was eventually reduced to $219,000 by Maryland's Court of Special Appeals because state law caps such payouts.
This family was screwed in so many different ways.
The 43 year old plumber (who I'm assuming is the father) gets a broken neck through malicious intent for a public urination ticket.
They sue the family through what I assume was at least a lengthy lawsuit.
They receive a payout of 7.4 million, but this is reduced to $210,000.
I wonder how much of that they received after taxes and legal fees.
Really really sad.
Not sure about legal fees, but taxes don't apply to these types of payments.
True, I'm not sure, I probably had it wrong. For some reason I assumed they would be taxed as they were still pre-tax income. It's been a long time since the Series 7 and I am no longer in finance...
I heard the mayor speak about that. She said it took them 2 years to convince CVS to come there. Now, the residents burned it down. She said she cannot understand them because this CVS services the people in the area with their prescriptions and much more.
How does burning a CVS make a statement to the police that you feel have mistreated you?
I heard the mayor speak about that. She said it took them 2 years to convince CVS to come there. Now, the residents burned it down. She said she cannot understand them because this CVS services the people in the area with their prescriptions and much more.
How does burning a CVS make a statement to the police that you feel have mistreated you?
Looting and protesting are two different things. The looters aren't trying to send a message to the police, the actual peaceful protesters were. The looters were simply looting. No message, nothing of substance to say or do, they were simply capitalizing on the situation to get free stuff.
They weren't just throwing rocks at the Fire Dept either, some people were actually cutting the hoses with switchblades in an attempt to keep the fire going.
I'm going to regret not ignoring you but here goes - FYI a lot, if not all of that military equipment was granted which means it was free or obtained at a drastically reduced price. and it really doesn't impact training.
if I may ask, where did you obtain your degree in CJ?
Regarding your assertion that a Mayor of a major city would not learn from a decision that led to millions in property damage and personal injuries ...well, I'll just go back to ignoring you.
1) Northeastern
2) My quote about 'not learning' was about the underlying social problems in society, which I thought was the subject, NOT about the mayor.
Maybe I am a bit emotional about Cops given the half dozen or so I know.
I'll say this, I know a Cop I went to college with who works for the Boston PD. Sound person, excellent at calmly diffusing situations.
Know 2 more cops who used to be neighbors, college educated, very professional, work in Austin and Salt Lake.
Then I know the redneck who is a teabagger and gun nut, who got rejected by FFX CO, who used his body camera to film himself pulling over a black driver in PG and hassling him, and showed it to his roomate thinking it was cool.
I know another person who is an air traffic controller. Not college educated, from the south, and was scheduled to be a Cop until the FAA took him (pays a lot more).
This person believes all rioters are thugs, that because he has a black friend that owns an $80,000 Audi that racial inequaility is garbage just made up by lazy people.
When I saw that crap on tape in Charleston, SC that thug hack looked just the same.
My point is, I think affluent areas have very professional staffs (though even FFX CO has had the Greer incident and jail tazer killing); but poor areas, red areas, the backcountry, I'm sorry but I see a lot of D student drop out gun lovers who like bossing people around and DO NOT care TO UNDERSTAND the NUIANCES of a complex society.
THE GOOD COPS need to speak out against these hacks like the clean MLB players did against the roiders.
until all of this city is restored. I remember burned out sections of Newark from my youth and my dad telling me it had been years since those riots happened. Not sure how things are there now (and couldn't even tell you where they were originally) but it seems to me that some places can take literally years and years to recover from riots.
When will any large stores want to return to these neighborhoods? How will they attract investment dollars again?
and we have to remember these are teens, and I read last week a neuro study basically saying teens brains are like a Ferrari without brakes. It's understandable they'd get worked up and act like idiots. I know that throwing cement at anybody unprovoked is over the line, and black-on-black violence just hurts themselves more than anybody.
At the same time, I wish I knew what one could say they need to do in order to solve their often ignored problems, and I just don't know because the whole system is messed up. Their interests matter far less than having a vote on abolishing the estate tax, sadly.
even the seemingly callous care. But what can you do? There is no carefully crafted policy that's going to get fathers back in the home, that is going to bring meaningful, remunerative work to the unskilled and provide positive role models for children, that is going to prod semi-interested students (the sort who in a suburban high school end up at four year colleges) into giving a shit when the schools are dangerous and home life is worse. We could debate whether certain policies exacerbated things - be it drug policy, welfare policy, whatever your chosen bogeyman - but the fact of the matter is these problems are intractable. People want to fix them but it is hard as hell to do so and it probably has a lot less to do with anything Congress can dream up or bureaucrats can implement than they'd like to admit. So we debate measures with much narrower and shallower impact.
The one thing nobody is talking about here is the Cost of keeping
curfew and tremendous show of Phalanx force a "success" Forgive me, this is not a success of establishing law and order when it takes 1000 officers and national guard to accomplish this.
even the seemingly callous care. But what can you do? There is no carefully crafted policy that's going to get fathers back in the home, that is going to bring meaningful, remunerative work to the unskilled and provide positive role models for children, that is going to prod semi-interested students (the sort who in a suburban high school end up at four year colleges) into giving a shit when the schools are dangerous and home life is worse. We could debate whether certain policies exacerbated things - be it drug policy, welfare policy, whatever your chosen bogeyman - but the fact of the matter is these problems are intractable. People want to fix them but it is hard as hell to do so and it probably has a lot less to do with anything Congress can dream up or bureaucrats can implement than they'd like to admit. So we debate measures with much narrower and shallower impact.
You don't have to have such nihilistic conclusions. The underclass is a product of the inequalities inherent in a capitalistic system, yes, but you can ask yourself: how much capitalism do you want? And if the rioters aren't pacified by economics or social law and order, you can ask: how much capitalism can we get away with?
My unwanted opinion is that unless you're in the upper 1%, this level isn't worth it.
even the seemingly callous care. But what can you do? There is no carefully crafted policy that's going to get fathers back in the home, that is going to bring meaningful, remunerative work to the unskilled and provide positive role models for children, that is going to prod semi-interested students (the sort who in a suburban high school end up at four year colleges) into giving a shit when the schools are dangerous and home life is worse. We could debate whether certain policies exacerbated things - be it drug policy, welfare policy, whatever your chosen bogeyman - but the fact of the matter is these problems are intractable. People want to fix them but it is hard as hell to do so and it probably has a lot less to do with anything Congress can dream up or bureaucrats can implement than they'd like to admit. So we debate measures with much narrower and shallower impact.
You don't have to have such nihilistic conclusions. The underclass is a product of the inequalities inherent in a capitalistic system, yes, but you can ask yourself: how much capitalism do you want? And if the rioters aren't pacified by economics or social law and order, you can ask: how much capitalism can we get away with?
My unwanted opinion is that unless you're in the upper 1%, this level isn't worth it.
But it's not like this underclass (and not just the African American component to it) sprung whole cloth in January 1981. Income inequality is a serious problem but I'm not sure the problems of substance abuse, criminality, illegitimacy and the like - intergenerational poverty - can simply be explained away as the function of income inequality and the excesses of capitalism.
All those social ills exist across the spectrum of inequality, but those at the high end have the resources to overcome most of it.
They exist, though they tend to be far less prevalent, and the resources are there to address them. There were things I really didn't like about Coming Apart by Charles Murray (I certainly have mixed feelings about Murray himself) but he illustrates his point well. There is a strong economic component to things, but the more significant divergences are social.
Pick your target, econimc or social, and address it rationally and progress can be made. Or accept the status-quo and prepare for the next riot.
Question: what brought about the end to the riots in 60's, early 70's? They were way worse than what we've seen so far, and they ended. Anyone remember?
Question: what brought about the end to the riots in 60's, early 70's? They were way worse than what we've seen so far, and they ended. Anyone remember?
What do you think? One thing I know for sure is that it wasn't the mid to late 70's economy. That varied moderate to severe suckitude.
I don't know. I'm old enough to remember the riots.
My father worked in Newark and his business was severely affected. But I don't rememeber how it ended. Just went away, only to return 40 years later like a bad cancer?
didn't know about the 1989 one .I remember watching a documentary on showtime about the cartel in Miami and they brought that 1980 riot up .Crazy stuff
"The underclass is a product of the inequalities inherent in a capitalistic system, yes, but you can ask yourself: how much capitalism do you want?"
I just don't accept this argument at all if inequalities refers to income rather than work vs no work. Even poor Americans have incomes far above non-Americans who lead orderly, successful lives. So why is the American underclass generally so toxic to others and so unhappy? I think cultural reasons have to play a large role, which is why I found Charles Murray's "Coming Apart" so interesting. I also think a completely dysfunctional income support system run by US government plays a large role as well.
Now, if by inequality you mean the divide between people with steady work vs those who don't, I think that's a much stronger argument. But solutions to that sort of inequality are very different from directly addressing income inequality and involve loosening US regulatory and compensation restrictions.
I can't cite any one factor, and I don't think it was any one factor. What probably had an impact, and degrees obviously vary, are:
* Election of black mayors in some of the major cities. Coleman Young in Detroit, Maynard Jackson in Atlanta, Tom Bradley in LA and eventually Harold Washington in Chicago
* No assassinations of civil rights leaders at that time. The politicians who got shot at, wounded or killed were George Wallace, Gerald Ford (twice), Harvey Milk and Ronald Reagan.
* Great Society programs providing food stamps, AFDC etc.
* Indirectly, the end of the war in Vietnam
* The fact that some of the impoverished areas (the Bronx is burning) got hollowed out population wise to the extent that there wasn't a critical mass. Fort Apache the Bronx got renamed "The Little House on the Prairie" during this period.
As I said before, it sure wasn't a caused by a vibrant economy. Inflation was a recurring problem. The decline of the US manufacturing base and auto industry, and the blue collar jobs that went with it, essentially got it's start during this time. Before that there was a North to South migration. This was job elimination. And at this point it really wasn't offshoring. Toyota didn't move an American plant to Tokyo, they just cleaned Detroit's clock. Read Halberstam's "The Reckoning" for an account ofthat.
than any other economic system. The problem now is we don't have capitalism. We have crony capitalism. The government is in cahoots with big business and both want a permanent underclass for their own reasons. Otherwise,why would we be bringing in people from other countries when our employment situation, especially in these poor areas, is so bad?
I can't cite any one factor, and I don't think it was any one factor. What probably had an impact, and degrees obviously vary, are:
* Election of black mayors in some of the major cities. Coleman Young in Detroit, Maynard Jackson in Atlanta, Tom Bradley in LA and eventually Harold Washington in Chicago
* No assassinations of civil rights leaders at that time. The politicians who got shot at, wounded or killed were George Wallace, Gerald Ford (twice), Harvey Milk and Ronald Reagan.
* Great Society programs providing food stamps, AFDC etc.
* Indirectly, the end of the war in Vietnam
* The fact that some of the impoverished areas (the Bronx is burning) got hollowed out population wise to the extent that there wasn't a critical mass. Fort Apache the Bronx got renamed "The Little House on the Prairie" during this period.
As I said before, it sure wasn't a caused by a vibrant economy. Inflation was a recurring problem. The decline of the US manufacturing base and auto industry, and the blue collar jobs that went with it, essentially got it's start during this time. Before that there was a North to South migration. This was job elimination. And at this point it really wasn't offshoring. Toyota didn't move an American plant to Tokyo, they just cleaned Detroit's clock. Read Halberstam's "The Reckoning" for an account ofthat.
I think that explains it very well. The change of leadership to represent the communities affected was big, but obviously thats not going to work in Baltimore.
If there is one positive in all of this, it's that Ray Lewis
I can't cite any one factor, and I don't think it was any one factor. What probably had an impact, and degrees obviously vary, are:
* Election of black mayors in some of the major cities. Coleman Young in Detroit, Maynard Jackson in Atlanta, Tom Bradley in LA and eventually Harold Washington in Chicago
* No assassinations of civil rights leaders at that time. The politicians who got shot at, wounded or killed were George Wallace, Gerald Ford (twice), Harvey Milk and Ronald Reagan.
* Great Society programs providing food stamps, AFDC etc.
* Indirectly, the end of the war in Vietnam
* The fact that some of the impoverished areas (the Bronx is burning) got hollowed out population wise to the extent that there wasn't a critical mass. Fort Apache the Bronx got renamed "The Little House on the Prairie" during this period.
As I said before, it sure wasn't a caused by a vibrant economy. Inflation was a recurring problem. The decline of the US manufacturing base and auto industry, and the blue collar jobs that went with it, essentially got it's start during this time. Before that there was a North to South migration. This was job elimination. And at this point it really wasn't offshoring. Toyota didn't move an American plant to Tokyo, they just cleaned Detroit's clock. Read Halberstam's "The Reckoning" for an account ofthat.
I think that explains it very well. The change of leadership to represent the communities affected was big, but obviously thats not going to work in Baltimore.
I forgot Carl Stokes in Cleveland.
And while he may have kept the cauldron from boiling over, IMHO Coleman Young might have been the worst thing that could have happened to Detroit.
RE: RE: RE: RE: if you don't break the law you don't have an issue
In comment 12252686 hudson said:
Hudson you're a fraud you have to graduate first to be Summa Cum Laude not an undergrad. you are a troll of the worst kind
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In comment 12252208 gtt350 said:
3) Police get paid and trained to professional defuse and appropriately handle tense situations. Apprently though we have a culture where ther hacks are robitically programmed to shoot anybody who doesn't proptly obey their highness. That is what happens when you take college dropout 2nd amendmant loving morons and give them the badge.
The irony of a half-wit like you insulting the intelligence of law enforcement officers. You're either an imbecile or a fucking troll, either way you're awful.
Im actually a Summa Cum Laude Criminal Justice undergrad major. I know this subject as well as anybody.
I happen to know several Cops.
3 with college degrees, 1 without.
The 1 without is a redneck gun nut who when he saw Obama attending the Selma Memorial said "N****** visiting n******," when I challenged the hack he ran on the same lines about blacks lining up to steal air Jordan's at night.
This Cop works in PG County and shot an unarmed black man this summer. I see plenty of D student drop outs like him; fortunately he has been rejected twice by Fairfax County (though even that agency has issues see John Greer or the Feb jail death).
It's disappointing a rather professionally agency like FFX Co still has the same cover our asses our shit don't stick mentality when it comes to law enforcement accountability.
There are bona fide protesters. There are looters just out to take advantage of the situation. There are outsiders who come in to take political advantage of a messy situation. And in between, there are youths from the community who are just fucking angry, and seeking to vent.
It is interesting that our president called the rioters
then Friday night Baltimore will blow up and make Monday look like a trip to Disneyland
Yes, that sounds like a perp who's angling for a sweet plea deal. However, what in the hell were they doing promising a final report by May 1. The report should go to the prosecutor's office first (and possibly the DOJ), who may request clarifications and further information. An artificial deadline like that just increases the tension either through the reaction to missing the deadline or charges filed without an adequate vetting of the evidence.
I bet you this anonymous woman's testimony had just as much to do with the charges filed as anything. She was very worried that the actions of 1 or 2 were going to get all 6 in trouble. Even if she was wrong/lied to regarding who did what, she seemed to know charges were coming.
Watched most of the press conference - seems like the most serious charges will revolve around vehicle involved homicide and failure to render aid.
The unlawful imprisonment seems a little different. I am guessing it had to do with an arrest not supported by probable cause. In NYS, that would not be criminal unless it was intentional. When an officer makes a bad arrest based on misunderstanding of the law - there are legal means to address that, but are usually based on constitutional grounds.
It will be real interesting to see how the statements read.
One final note, I thought they might have some exposure re: negligent homicide. RE: a charge of murder - have to see how that shakes out.
academics believe most of the decline in rioting can be accounted for by demographic change. I.e. the age group prone to rioting became a smaller proportion of the inner city population. It is also thought the frustration that leads to riots is a function of rising expectations. When things are generally bad those not making it don't feel so left behind but when the overall economy starts improving those at the bottom and not seeing any improvement in their own lives become hopeless and angry. Thus, the riots of the sixties abated when the economy stopped booming in the seventies.
Also, the data show that the most potent predictor for later "success" (pick your metric) among both boys and girls in poverty is whether there is a male figure residing in the home. As a recent series of NY Times articles has shown there is a paucity of available males among minorities due to high homicide and incarceration rates.
because David Simon was a reporter there....
With that said, my wife works at the University of Maryland Medical Center, and they just evacuated her campus and all the businesses around there because of a supposed gang fight.
They are saying that the Bloods, Crips, & Black Guerilla Family gangs are banding together to attached the cops.
Not good.
Thank god my wife is home already.
You are simply a treasure.
What did the tweet say?
Just looked at his Twitter F that guy, he supports criminals
All hell breaking loose at the moment.
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and generally against rushes to judgment, but healthy young men tend not to suffer severe, ultimately fatal spinal injuries out of nowhere. There are serious grounds for concern. You can find rioting abhorrent without assuming that there couldn't possibly be legitimate reasons for people to be outraged.
We are definitely in the middle of a trend of seemingly awful police behavior.
Not stating that it is, but it MAY be saturation media, internet, social media, etc. attention. It may be that in the past, incidents like the cop shooting a guy in the back while he is running away from a traffic stop might have ended with the cop's report. But social media rightly made it a big story.
Fairness is both relative and a pendulum.
Having said that, how did this guy end up with a broken neck?
What im mad at is local officials and career protestors not coming out and speaking to stop this violence
If you are really targeting police, it would be smarter to keep it a secret...
This was my reaction as well. That "fact sheet" or whatever it was that the BPD released was probably nothing more than a bit of propaganda to deflect whatever criticism is aimed their way in the aftermath of all this.
They're profit-maximizing enterprises run, especially at the local level, by people who are motivated by reputational concerns almost as much as they are about money. It's not Morgan-Stanley.
What im mad at is local officials and career protestors not coming out and speaking to stop this violence
Al Sharpton is on his way. Feel better now?
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The "threat" from gangs sounds like BS. Criminal organizations generally try to lay low, not mobilize precisely when the spotlight is on their backyard. At the end of the day, they're profit-maximizing enterprises, not holy warriors.
They're profit-maximizing enterprises run, especially at the local level, by people who are motivated by reputational concerns almost as much as they are about money. It's not Morgan-Stanley.
I agree but open warfare on the cops when the nation is watching is probably pretty bad for business. They probably satisfy their reputational demands by beefing with rivals.
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beating me down. You know why? because im not getting into trouble.
What im mad at is local officials and career protestors not coming out and speaking to stop this violence
Al Sharpton is on his way. Feel better now?
oh god...
What im mad at is local officials and career protestors not coming out and speaking to stop this violence
GMAN - But that's the point... in SOME instances people are either committing crimes where the punishment they're receiving doesn't fit the level of the crime committed (for example getting tasered and shot for a broken taillight) or not committing any crime at all (like, for instance, the 12 year old kid who was shot by police because he was playing with a toy guy in the park). I wouldn't call myself a 'cop hater' at all because I realize they have a very tough job to do... BUT I've had my own experiences with police brutality and it's a very helpless feeling that I don't think most would understand unless put in the same position.
All of that said, what's going on in B-more is sickening and many city officials, as well as the family of the deceased kid themselves, have come out and asked for the rioting to stop. But having videos come out that show police officers celebrating and 'fist pumping' each other after they'd just beat down a guy (after a traffic stop no less) doesn't help ease the frustration that many black folks are, and have been, feeling for decades now (see link).
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In comment 12251950 RB^2 said:
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The "threat" from gangs sounds like BS. Criminal organizations generally try to lay low, not mobilize precisely when the spotlight is on their backyard. At the end of the day, they're profit-maximizing enterprises, not holy warriors.
They're profit-maximizing enterprises run, especially at the local level, by people who are motivated by reputational concerns almost as much as they are about money. It's not Morgan-Stanley.
I agree but open warfare on the cops when the nation is watching is probably pretty bad for business. They probably satisfy their reputational demands by beefing with rivals.
Reputation is money for gangs, and it is all about the money.....
Yeah guys! We sure kicked that guys ass didn't we?!!! - ( New Window )
That part has been pretty ridiculous. The mayor, chief of police, and over half of the city council members are African American. It's not like you have the white "man" against the poor black community.
BREAKING: Authorities say at least 7 officers have been injured in ongoing violent clash in Baltimore.
Baltimore Riots 2015 Compilation - ( New Window )
That is B.S. they shouldarrest all of the the cops and put them in general pop.
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forgot the link... Yeah guys! We sure kicked that guys ass didn't we?!!! - ( New Window )
That is B.S. they shouldarrest all of the the cops and put them in general pop.
Pretty sure at least one was charged with assault.
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In comment 12251988 T-Bone said:
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forgot the link... Yeah guys! We sure kicked that guys ass didn't we?!!! - ( New Window )
That is B.S. they shouldarrest all of the the cops and put them in general pop.
Pretty sure at least one was charged with assault.
One cop (the one who punched him 16 times in the head during the arrest) was fired. One woman resigned (don't know if she was in the video or had something else to do with it) and the others haven't been punished at all. At least not yet anyway.
I support law enforcement and government, but I detest the culture we have whete Cops, like the military, have this "you're with us or against us" mentality.
Being a cop, like going in the military, can be a brave and noble choice per the individual, but it does not give you extra rights, privileges, nor immunity from responsibility, accountability or all else.
Fact is, many Cops aren't heros doing the job for the good of mankind. Many are uneducated Neanderthals who like the power or being in charge, cannot see the world as a spectrum but rather black whit (no pun) good bad. They also attract gun lovers who like shooting things and don't have patience.
it's about fucking time we have some awareness and change.
This whole situation is disgusting. Baltimore is a fine city, and the people who live there are wonderful folks.
The misbehaviour of a group of chaotic youths are casting a negative view of that great town.
I pray for a peaceful end of this turmoil.
This sounds ridiculous, you do know that? Fox and CNN spent a couple hours on a Sat nite on a yearly event, missing some local disturbance that result in like a dozen arrests.
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many things are pumped up after the fact. Rodney King is a perfect example he put dozens of cops in peril on a high speed chase not to mention citizens and then resists arrest yet Los Angeles is almost burnt down because of this jerk
What law did the guy break?
Who? Freddie Gray or Rodney King?
Quote:
In comment 12252208 gtt350 said:
Quote:
many things are pumped up after the fact. Rodney King is a perfect example he put dozens of cops in peril on a high speed chase not to mention citizens and then resists arrest yet Los Angeles is almost burnt down because of this jerk
What law did the guy break?
Who? Freddie Gray or Rodney King?
Spotlights lose their effectiveness in daylight, so turn all the floodlights on and there won't be any way to single any one suspect out. If I've been wanting to torch a place, or loot a store, or kill a rival, or steal someone's stash, a riot could be convenient cover for me, no?
Now, that's not exactly breaking the law based on that alone I guess, but they were looking for drug dealers, and Gray's arrest record is:
03-20-15 dealing cocaine
08-28-08 possession of narcotics
10-05-12 illegal gambling
01-25-14 possession of narcotics over 10 grams
08-24-07 manufacturing and distribution narcotics
08/29-07 distribution of narcotics
09-16-08 distribution of narcotics
04-16-08 distribution of narcotics
05-09-12 distribution of narcotics
01-04-15 distribution of narcotics
12-31-14 distribution of narcotics
05-13-14 stolen property
07-16-08 distribution of narcotics
03-28-08 possession of narcotics
02-12-08 distribution of narcotics
09-29-13 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 possession of narcotics
03-20-08 burglary
03-20-08 possession of narcotics
09-21-07 distribution of narcotics
04-30-08 unlawful possession (two counts)
(Source Maryland Dept of Justice)
Not entirely out of the question that they may have been justified in attempting to apprehend him, no?
Link - ( New Window )
CVS was set on fire and then people cut the fire hose when the firemen hooked it up to try and put the fire out.
Now, that's not exactly breaking the law based on that alone I guess, but they were looking for drug dealers, and Gray's arrest record is:
03-20-15 dealing cocaine
08-28-08 possession of narcotics
10-05-12 illegal gambling
01-25-14 possession of narcotics over 10 grams
08-24-07 manufacturing and distribution narcotics
08/29-07 distribution of narcotics
09-16-08 distribution of narcotics
04-16-08 distribution of narcotics
05-09-12 distribution of narcotics
01-04-15 distribution of narcotics
12-31-14 distribution of narcotics
05-13-14 stolen property
07-16-08 distribution of narcotics
03-28-08 possession of narcotics
02-12-08 distribution of narcotics
09-29-13 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 possession of narcotics
03-20-08 burglary
03-20-08 possession of narcotics
09-21-07 distribution of narcotics
04-30-08 unlawful possession (two counts)
(Source Maryland Dept of Justice)
Not entirely out of the question that they may have been justified in attempting to apprehend him, no?
You're such a fucking weirdo
Now, that's not exactly breaking the law based on that alone I guess, but they were looking for drug dealers, and Gray's arrest record is:
03-20-15 dealing cocaine
08-28-08 possession of narcotics
10-05-12 illegal gambling
01-25-14 possession of narcotics over 10 grams
08-24-07 manufacturing and distribution narcotics
08/29-07 distribution of narcotics
09-16-08 distribution of narcotics
04-16-08 distribution of narcotics
05-09-12 distribution of narcotics
01-04-15 distribution of narcotics
12-31-14 distribution of narcotics
05-13-14 stolen property
07-16-08 distribution of narcotics
03-28-08 possession of narcotics
02-12-08 distribution of narcotics
09-29-13 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 possession of narcotics
03-20-08 burglary
03-20-08 possession of narcotics
09-21-07 distribution of narcotics
04-30-08 unlawful possession (two counts)
(Source Maryland Dept of Justice)
Not entirely out of the question that they may have been justified in attempting to apprehend him, no?
That certainly deserves the death penalty.
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Asking Red Sox fans since there were more of them there.
What percentage?
Oh my! Straight out of Trenton.
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and when they encountered Gray and he saw them, he took off running.
Now, that's not exactly breaking the law based on that alone I guess, but they were looking for drug dealers, and Gray's arrest record is:
03-20-15 dealing cocaine
08-28-08 possession of narcotics
10-05-12 illegal gambling
01-25-14 possession of narcotics over 10 grams
08-24-07 manufacturing and distribution narcotics
08/29-07 distribution of narcotics
09-16-08 distribution of narcotics
04-16-08 distribution of narcotics
05-09-12 distribution of narcotics
01-04-15 distribution of narcotics
12-31-14 distribution of narcotics
05-13-14 stolen property
07-16-08 distribution of narcotics
03-28-08 possession of narcotics
02-12-08 distribution of narcotics
09-29-13 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 possession of narcotics
03-20-08 burglary
03-20-08 possession of narcotics
09-21-07 distribution of narcotics
04-30-08 unlawful possession (two counts)
(Source Maryland Dept of Justice)
Not entirely out of the question that they may have been justified in attempting to apprehend him, no?
Running from police may be enough to question him but not to arrest him (especially in the fashion they did)? I do not think running from police is a crime. What did they have on him to arrest him? Why haven't we heard anything about that in two weeks?
Don't know the answer. Also not sure how you reasonably aprehend somebody, peacefully, that is trying to get away from you.
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and when they encountered Gray and he saw them, he took off running.
Now, that's not exactly breaking the law based on that alone I guess, but they were looking for drug dealers, and Gray's arrest record is:
03-20-15 dealing cocaine
08-28-08 possession of narcotics
10-05-12 illegal gambling
01-25-14 possession of narcotics over 10 grams
08-24-07 manufacturing and distribution narcotics
08/29-07 distribution of narcotics
09-16-08 distribution of narcotics
04-16-08 distribution of narcotics
05-09-12 distribution of narcotics
01-04-15 distribution of narcotics
12-31-14 distribution of narcotics
05-13-14 stolen property
07-16-08 distribution of narcotics
03-28-08 possession of narcotics
02-12-08 distribution of narcotics
09-29-13 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 possession of narcotics
03-20-08 burglary
03-20-08 possession of narcotics
09-21-07 distribution of narcotics
04-30-08 unlawful possession (two counts)
(Source Maryland Dept of Justice)
Not entirely out of the question that they may have been justified in attempting to apprehend him, no?
That certainly deserves the death penalty.
Was the question about the punishment fitting the crime? Or was the question "what law did he break?"
Quote:
In comment 12252235 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and when they encountered Gray and he saw them, he took off running.
Now, that's not exactly breaking the law based on that alone I guess, but they were looking for drug dealers, and Gray's arrest record is:
03-20-15 dealing cocaine
08-28-08 possession of narcotics
10-05-12 illegal gambling
01-25-14 possession of narcotics over 10 grams
08-24-07 manufacturing and distribution narcotics
08/29-07 distribution of narcotics
09-16-08 distribution of narcotics
04-16-08 distribution of narcotics
05-09-12 distribution of narcotics
01-04-15 distribution of narcotics
12-31-14 distribution of narcotics
05-13-14 stolen property
07-16-08 distribution of narcotics
03-28-08 possession of narcotics
02-12-08 distribution of narcotics
09-29-13 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 distribution of narcotics
12-04-14 possession of narcotics
03-20-08 burglary
03-20-08 possession of narcotics
09-21-07 distribution of narcotics
04-30-08 unlawful possession (two counts)
(Source Maryland Dept of Justice)
Not entirely out of the question that they may have been justified in attempting to apprehend him, no?
Running from police may be enough to question him but not to arrest him (especially in the fashion they did)? I do not think running from police is a crime. What did they have on him to arrest him? Why haven't we heard anything about that in two weeks?
Don't know the answer. Also not sure how you reasonably aprehend somebody, peacefully, that is trying to get away from you.
Don't break the law, and you're highly unlikely to die at the hands of the police.
Did Mike Brown or Freddie Gray deserve to die? No. Did they both directly put themselves into the situation with police that led to their death? I'd say yes.
Don't break the law, and you're highly unlikely to die at the hands of the police.
Did Mike Brown or Freddie Gray deserve to die? No. Did they both directly put themselves into the situation with police that led to their death? I'd say yes.
The fact that someone has a checkered past or that he committed a crime to justify his detention (if Gray did) does not mean he deserves anything that comes his way.
That said, I'm disheartened that the demonstrations have become violent and possibly corrupted by opportunists.
The fact that someone has a checkered past or that he committed a crime to justify his detention (if Gray did) does not mean he deserves anything that comes his way.
The video clearly shows him injured and carried/dragged into the van. He was hurt before the car ride.
The fact that the police cannot come up with a reason why he was arrested is extremely troubling. The fact that they cannot explain his injury caused while being arrested for not doing anything is even more troubling,
There are elements in any society that will use the absence of authority to commit crimes.
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you can even use force to arrest someone, when appropriate. But the force that it takes to arrest someone is not the force it takes to cause a lethal spinal injury, generally speaking. There are certainly things about this that aren't known, and maybe you could extrapolate from his past dealings with law enforcement that he was less than polite and may have resisted above and beyond the flight. But if the idea that someone could enter custody in apparent good health and end up with a fatal spine injury doesn't trouble you, perhaps you need to reevaluate the way you treat news.
The fact that someone has a checkered past or that he committed a crime to justify his detention (if Gray did) does not mean he deserves anything that comes his way.
The video clearly shows him injured and carried/dragged into the van. He was hurt before the car ride.
The fact that the police cannot come up with a reason why he was arrested is extremely troubling. The fact that they cannot explain his injury caused while being arrested for not doing anything is even more troubling,
Yeah, that's how I viewed it too. His legs are dragging behind him.
Isn't it possible that they tackled him and cause the injury there? Could happen falling off a bike.
Troubling to me is that it took nearly an hour to let him see a doctor.
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Which goes back to the original point the poster made to which you asked the question...
Don't break the law, and you're highly unlikely to die at the hands of the police.
Did Mike Brown or Freddie Gray deserve to die? No. Did they both directly put themselves into the situation with police that led to their death? I'd say yes.
And again what law did he break? There is absolutely no similarity to Mike Brown here.
My point of view is that the police were in the area investigating drug related activity. He was arrested last month and in January in the same neighborhood dealing drugs. They wanted to talk to him and he took off. Which led to a chase and apprehension.
I don't believe they singled him out because he was black and randomly decided to chase him down and, in the process, kill him.
Maybe I'm more optimistic than cynical, but if I had to choose between two scenarios on which one was more likely...
These two situations aren't remotely in the same ball park.
Why am I thinking of Bunny Colvin here?
Ive been saying for years, Baltimore is a big Bridgeport.
1) Criminals have rights
2) Alleged criminals have rights
3) Police get paid and trained to professional defuse and appropriately handle tense situations. Apprently though we have a culture where ther hacks are robitically programmed to shoot anybody who doesn't proptly obey their highness. That is what happens when you take college dropout 2nd amendmant loving morons and give them the badge.
4) Ironic. You are making a statement which is basically saying, don't commit a crime (however minor) or alleged crime, or else you get what you have coming.
By that same logic, one could say the riots are justified...don't kill inocent civilians if you don't want to incite a riot.
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Here in Rochester. You don't see us rioting here. The criminal (black) knocked a cop (white) down then took his gun, put it under his chin and executed him. Don't see me in the streets.
These two situations aren't remotely in the same ball park.
All I'm saying is that you don't see people rioting over a cop being executed. Were the cops wrong in Baltimore? Yes. But this guy here murdered a police officer and it's peaceful here.
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many things are pumped up after the fact. Rodney King is a perfect example he put dozens of cops in peril on a high speed chase not to mention citizens and then resists arrest yet Los Angeles is almost burnt down because of this jerk
1) Criminals have rights
2) Alleged criminals have rights
3) Police get paid and trained to professional defuse and appropriately handle tense situations. Apprently though we have a culture where ther hacks are robitically programmed to shoot anybody who doesn't proptly obey their highness. That is what happens when you take college dropout 2nd amendmant loving morons and give them the badge.
4) Ironic. You are making a statement which is basically saying, don't commit a crime (however minor) or alleged crime, or else you get what you have coming.
By that same logic, one could say the riots are justified...don't kill inocent civilians if you don't want to incite a riot.
I can't tell if you're joking. I hope you are because if you aren't you are one of the dumbest posters in the history of BBI.
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many things are pumped up after the fact. Rodney King is a perfect example he put dozens of cops in peril on a high speed chase not to mention citizens and then resists arrest yet Los Angeles is almost burnt down because of this jerk
1) Criminals have rights
2) Alleged criminals have rights
3) Police get paid and trained to professional defuse and appropriately handle tense situations. Apprently though we have a culture where ther hacks are robitically programmed to shoot anybody who doesn't proptly obey their highness. That is what happens when you take college dropout 2nd amendmant loving morons and give them the badge.
4) Ironic. You are making a statement which is basically saying, don't commit a crime (however minor) or alleged crime, or else you get what you have coming.
By that same logic, one could say the riots are justified...don't kill inocent civilians if you don't want to incite a riot.
Police arrest millions of people a year. They go on millions of calls per year. Around 1,000 of those millions and millions of calls and arrests end up in a death.
So your comment about them shooting anyone week doesn't obey is...wrong.
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In comment 12252589 Steve L said:
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Here in Rochester. You don't see us rioting here. The criminal (black) knocked a cop (white) down then took his gun, put it under his chin and executed him. Don't see me in the streets.
These two situations aren't remotely in the same ball park.
All I'm saying is that you don't see people rioting over a cop being executed. Were the cops wrong in Baltimore? Yes. But this guy here murdered a police officer and it's peaceful here.
The guy who murdered a cop is just not going to be the topic of a civil protest by any group in Rochester (or any other city for that matter). Also, people don't riot over police, because cops were never suppressed. For example, policeman's word will always carry more weight than a civilian's in court. How is Rochester doing anyways? I owe that town a visit, and owe myself a garbage plate fix!
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In comment 12252589 Steve L said:
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Here in Rochester. You don't see us rioting here. The criminal (black) knocked a cop (white) down then took his gun, put it under his chin and executed him. Don't see me in the streets.
These two situations aren't remotely in the same ball park.
All I'm saying is that you don't see people rioting over a cop being executed. Were the cops wrong in Baltimore? Yes. But this guy here murdered a police officer and it's peaceful here.
Steve there is a huge difference. The tragic murder of a policeman is not the same as an entire group of people feeling that they have been abused enough by the very people meant to protect them.
In the execution of the policeman in Rochester there is no doubt who the bad guy is. In Baltimore the likely bad guy(s) appear to be covering up and withholding information.
I'm not supporting the violence which is actually hurting the very neighborhood these people live in. It is stupid. But I do understand the reason that caused the riots.
3) Police get paid and trained to professional defuse and appropriately handle tense situations. Apprently though we have a culture where ther hacks are robitically programmed to shoot anybody who doesn't proptly obey their highness. That is what happens when you take college dropout 2nd amendmant loving morons and give them the badge.
The irony of a half-wit like you insulting the intelligence of law enforcement officers. You're either an imbecile or a fucking troll, either way you're awful.
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In comment 12252208 gtt350 said:
3) Police get paid and trained to professional defuse and appropriately handle tense situations. Apprently though we have a culture where ther hacks are robitically programmed to shoot anybody who doesn't proptly obey their highness. That is what happens when you take college dropout 2nd amendmant loving morons and give them the badge.
The irony of a half-wit like you insulting the intelligence of law enforcement officers. You're either an imbecile or a fucking troll, either way you're awful.
Im actually a Summa Cum Laude Criminal Justice undergrad major. I know this subject as well as anybody.
I happen to know several Cops.
3 with college degrees, 1 without.
The 1 without is a redneck gun nut who when he saw Obama attending the Selma Memorial said "N****** visiting n******," when I challenged the hack he ran on the same lines about blacks lining up to steal air Jordan's at night.
This Cop works in PG County and shot an unarmed black man this summer. I see plenty of D student drop outs like him; fortunately he has been rejected twice by Fairfax County (though even that agency has issues see John Greer or the Feb jail death).
It's disappointing a rather professionally agency like FFX Co still has the same cover our asses our shit don't stick mentality when it comes to law enforcement accountability.
When baseball had a major culture of steroid use, one of the reasons it has rapidly dropped is because of the outcry of honest ball players who spoke out and wanted to have integrity and get out the dirty players. They spoke, their union spoke.
It would be nice if law enforcement would have a similar about face, if the good Cops and their PR and Unions would take the lead in changing the message to weed out the ignorant tea bagging hacks.
We don't see that, they shut, cover their ass, or speak out defensively. Until that culture changes I'm afraid this will continue.
I understand what the Mayor was trying to do here - give people a little space, some time and an opportunity to protest, grieve. That's not an unreasonable plan, but, they seemed poorly prepared for worst case scenario.
I understand what the Mayor was trying to do here - give people a little space, some time and an opportunity to protest, grieve. That's not an unreasonable plan, but, they seemed poorly prepared for worst case scenario.
I agree with the first part of your post. There are no doubt thousands of people there who want to use this as a catalyst for positive change, and they're not the ones throwing shit and setting fires.
The second though, how could you NOT foresee this? Ferguson got ugly very quickly. At the very least you've got to be prepared for that possibility.
But deriding officers as merely dumb, rednecky 2nd Amendment types is a silly caricature, no matter what degrees you claim to possess.
All I'm saying is that you don't see people rioting over a cop being executed. (...) this guy here murdered a police officer and it's peaceful here.
So the (alleged) murderer wasn't in the employ of the city, and hadn't sworn to uphold the law.
You realize that the public may hold certain people to a slightly higher standard, with regard to not killing/maiming at random?
"I am not going to prohibit their right ot protest". Great job schmuck. Everyone under the sun knew thsi was going to happen, and she basically didnt do shit to stop it.
She claims there will be order. No there wont be. Your in charge of what happened. Its your city, and what happened is a fucking disgrace. Another huge black eye for America with NOTHING getting accomplished.
I am sick of these protests. Granted I am not an African American, but these retaliations and protests are fucking pathetic.
and yes, there will be order...and a painful lesson learned.
But deriding officers as merely dumb, rednecky 2nd Amendment types is a silly caricature, no matter what degrees you claim to possess.
I agree completely with the first paragraph.
Not the second. I'm sorry but outside of wealthy municipalities where there is a huge demand to work in...your inner cities and less off burbs and countryside are littered with a lot of Cops who were C/D students, shoplifters or jock bullies who love the power of being in charge and enjoy shooting guns. The good professionally cops need to speak out against these hacks and frankly we need to make it so we can attract more intelligent, educated, cops who are able to deal with the socially disturbed people.
Fair points all around, and even if I'm right I don't think it is terribly pertinent to the discussion at hand. Whether you have ACU pattern uniforms and MRAPs or not, this seems to have more to do with run of the mill grievances (excessive violence during arrests, other alleged mistreatment) than the litany of SWAT team horror stories.
[quote] is hardly a moron. IMHO, she made a bad decision by not ensuring there was a contingency plan, but a moron - really?
and yes, there will be order...and a painful lesson learned. [/quote
Please. This wasnt a bad decision by any means. Its a catastrophic one. Its almost like she wanted this to happen. Then comes out with harsh words about what was done. Please.
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There are plenty of valid points about "police culture." Famously insular and not really helped by the advent of social media (widening the insular group), treating the people who are policed as a "them" is clearly a problem. The almost ubiquitous nature of SWAT teams and their ilk and the "militarization" of police and police training widens the gap between communities and their law enforcement in many instances, at least in perception. And so on and so forth.
But deriding officers as merely dumb, rednecky 2nd Amendment types is a silly caricature, no matter what degrees you claim to possess.
I agree completely with the first paragraph.
Not the second. I'm sorry but outside of wealthy municipalities where there is a huge demand to work in...your inner cities and less off burbs and countryside are littered with a lot of Cops who were C/D students, shoplifters or jock bullies who love the power of being in charge and enjoy shooting guns. The good professionally cops need to speak out against these hacks and frankly we need to make it so we can attract more intelligent, educated, cops who are able to deal with the socially disturbed people.
That has not been my experience. The two types that tend to last are the ones you would like to see (intelligent, dedicated) and the ones who can figure out how to do enough to stay employed but not enough to rock the boat. The overzealous don't tend to last very long - either they fuck up or some combination of mentorship and learning the hard way shapes them into one of those two categories.
and yes, there will be order...and a painful lesson learned.
More spending will go on buying surplus equipment from the government military contractors instead of training Cops to deal professionally with public or recruit better stock and the blue shield will continue to perpetuate their own self interest to the detriment of the public they claim they serveand deserve an unconditional medal.
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In comment 12252798 Dunedin81 said:
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There are plenty of valid points about "police culture." Famously insular and not really helped by the advent of social media (widening the insular group), treating the people who are policed as a "them" is clearly a problem. The almost ubiquitous nature of SWAT teams and their ilk and the "militarization" of police and police training widens the gap between communities and their law enforcement in many instances, at least in perception. And so on and so forth.
But deriding officers as merely dumb, rednecky 2nd Amendment types is a silly caricature, no matter what degrees you claim to possess.
I agree completely with the first paragraph.
Not the second. I'm sorry but outside of wealthy municipalities where there is a huge demand to work in...your inner cities and less off burbs and countryside are littered with a lot of Cops who were C/D students, shoplifters or jock bullies who love the power of being in charge and enjoy shooting guns. The good professionally cops need to speak out against these hacks and frankly we need to make it so we can attract more intelligent, educated, cops who are able to deal with the socially disturbed people.
That has not been my experience. The two types that tend to last are the ones you would like to see (intelligent, dedicated) and the ones who can figure out how to do enough to stay employed but not enough to rock the boat. The overzealous don't tend to last very long - either they fuck up or some combination of mentorship and learning the hard way shapes them into one of those two categories.
That idiot we saw in SC, that racist hack I know, who never attended college, hates gays, and believes blacks want handouts, I'm afraid are far from a small minority especially in the cities and red districts.
if I may ask, where did you obtain your degree in CJ?
Regarding your assertion that a Mayor of a major city would not learn from a decision that led to millions in property damage and personal injuries ...well, I'll just go back to ignoring you.
and yes, there will be order...and a painful lesson learned.
She's not a moron? Go to 27 seconds and tell me this woman is not a moron.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_5KQC7k8Lc - ( New Window )
Then if there is an injustice, render punishment commeasurate with the crime and the riots will go away
How can these people rebuild? Who will compensate them and their employees who worked there?
As soon as the rock throwing began the tear gas and rubber bullets should've come out along w the national guard and curfew
yes
riots were caused by lowlifes, punk kids, and anarchists to act up under the guise of a reasonable cause. are you saying that those people are so uncivilized they cannot express their opinion or seek justice through other means?
riots were caused by lowlifes, punk kids, and anarchists to act up under the guise of a reasonable cause. are you saying that those people are so uncivilized they cannot express their opinion or seek justice through other means?
How about unqualified or failed in her biggest moment? He lack of common sense was astounding and will coast that city millions. Milions it doesn't have which means federal $$ which means $$ that could and should have been spent elsewhere. The bill will be enormous. She is not fit for that office. He denial of the statement made on camera is also sign of an unwillingness to own up to the statement she made. She may have said it wrong but there was obviously a plan to not engage rioters. She and others in charge obviously had no plan and no idea what to do. The amount of damage she done is at her feet. Maybe not all but a large part of it.
Then if there is an injustice, render punishment commeasurate with the crime and the riots will go away
Perception is really the operative concept here. This particular act seems like it was an injustice and no doubt there are other perceived injustices that brought things to a boil. But the famously rational people who set fire to cars and loot stores aren't necessarily going to be placated by the news that this guy or that one or five of them are going to be put on trial. And if a jury of that guy's peers comes back not guilty or deadlocks, what then?
Is the answer to back off? Less aggressive policing? Because Baltimore is a hub for drug trafficking in the mid-Atlantic, particularly the traffic in heroin, so the decision of law enforcement to "back off" and be less aggressive in their policing is pregnant with consequences for surrounding cities and states. The mayor is an idiot, but people who tell you that there are easy answers to any of the myriad problems these riots implicate is just as stupid.
Watching them cut fire hoses and throw cinderblocks at Firemen and Firetrucks who were trying to put out the massive blazes....
We are talking about tens of millions of dollars of damages to public and provate property. That number would absolutely be lowered if LE imporved their accountability to the people they serve.
Meh. Some of this is probably anger. But there are other people who just see an opportunity.
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That number would absolutely be lowered if LE imporved their accountability to the people they serve.
Good question. What do you think?
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That number would absolutely be lowered if LE imporved their accountability to the people they serve.
Good question. What do you think?
I don't believe what happened yesterday was about justice. At all. I believe it was based on opportunity, like others have stated.
Therefore, I believe it would not.
Maybe these riots keep happening because the rioters and looters feel some sort of connection to legions of other oppressed peoples around the country. Or maybe the protests happen because of that connection and sense of injustice, and those who would riot and loot exploit the situation to commit wanton theft and violence. There is some overlap, to be sure, but I think a lot more of this rationalization for setting one's own neighborhood alight comes from people removed from the situation.
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Maybe these riots keep happening because the rioters and looters feel some sort of connection to legions of other oppressed peoples around the country. Or maybe the protests happen because of that connection and sense of injustice, and those who would riot and loot exploit the situation to commit wanton theft and violence. There is some overlap, to be sure, but I think a lot more of this rationalization for setting one's own neighborhood alight comes from people removed from the situation.
A good question. And one stat I'd like to see might shed some light on it. During the interviews at the scenes of violence last night, a number of times people self-identified as local residents stated that a number of the people they saw looting were not residents of the neighborhood. And I did see one person get arrested for obstructing the police who, by appearance, looked like one of the Guy Fawkesian anarchists who showed up at Ferguson to make a bad situation worse. So the stat I'd like to see is this:
"Of those arrested, how many of them were residents of the neighborhood where they were arrested?"
I think that might give us some useful information.
The police were alerted prior by twitter notices being put out among local high school students that they planned to loot and destroy the mall and other local stores.
Nearly all of them are from Baltimore City. Thirty-one were adults, mostly males in their late 20s and early 30s but ranging up to age 47. Four were juveniles.
Can't speak as to the accuracy of this, just passing it on.
Link - ( New Window )
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With Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake blaming outside agitators for the violence at yesterdays Freddie Gray rally, Baltimore police tonight released the names of 35 people arrested in connection with the unrest.
Nearly all of them are from Baltimore City. Thirty-one were adults, mostly males in their late 20s and early 30s but ranging up to age 47. Four were juveniles.
Can't speak as to the accuracy of this, just passing it on. Link - ( New Window )
Nearly all from Baltimore, but how many from that particular neighborhood? They had helicopter shots of a mall being looted by people who drove up in cars. Do we have a mobile group of criminals who are hitting targets of opportunity, or is it really neighborhood residents?
Baltimore Sun - ( New Window )
Then if there is an injustice, render punishment commeasurate with the crime and the riots will go away
+1
Great post
He was later stationed at the 28 in Harlem during the infamous riots of the late 60's. He said that the local residents were the most appreciative of police efforts to beat back the riots as they didn't want them to continue.
The only way to handle this situation is to forcibly put it down, then make sure that the reasons it started are honestly addressed.
Link - ( New Window )
NW Baltimore has been a powderkeg, waiting to blow for a long time. Pent up frustration and years of disenfranchised folks seeing a bad environment remain that way.
It's important to note that a peaceful protest was going on in the city in the week prior to Saturday. Then, the peaceful protest turned violent when those "outside agitators" came to the city and stirred up anger. That was controlled pretty quickly by Baltimore City Police and I assume the Mayor thought that if they could handle that, they could handle whatever was to happen next. But nobody could have expected what happened last night.
Most of what was seen on TV last night was people with very little means seeing an opportunity. The police force was stretched thin, with riots scattered across a city that is 80 square miles. Meanwhile, the Orioles and the MLB failed to call off the game until 6:30 or so, forcing many in the force to set up barricades to prevent the violence from reaching downtown.
The Mayor should have called in the Guard sooner, absolutely. How much sooner? I'm not sure. Like a previous poster said, it's an awfully difficult balance to maintain... and prior to 3 p.m. yesterday, the city was peaceful and all there was to warn anyone was Twitter chatter - something I'm sure happens quite a bit.
I hope this doesn't continue today. With a 10 p.m. curfew and the National Guard in town, I don't think it will. But what I do know is NW Baltimore isn't your average community... hell, it's not your average ghetto (for lack of a better term). And I hope the police, who can't seem to get a grip on the neighborhoods on a normal day, have a good plan for tonight.
I have been there several times. I am a chef, and one of the line cooks I work with is from Baltimore. We have been down there several times to see his elderly Mom. Although the neighbourhood is poor where she lives, the people are very nice.
It is not as bad as Camden N.J., which is the sphincter of the world. It is the ugliest, most depressing blight to society that I can name. I hate Camden N.J.
And what solution would this genius suggest as an alternative to having cops?
You clearly haven't been to Locust Point, Little Italy, Harbor East, Canton, Mount Vernon, Federal Hill or any of the other number of neighborhoods in the city where people are kind and culture and history are rich. Honestly, there's a lot more to see in Baltimore than the Inner Harbor and you'll find the least amount of locals there.
In other words, you're talking out of your ass.
Why is that, Greg? Would you care to elaborate or can I assume your opinion of the city stems from the general nose-high, stick up your ass attitude you learned in Charlottesville?
What is there to riot about? A criminal was caught and is on trial. Isn't that how the legal system is supposed to work?
People really show their hand when they make this particular type of statement. You are clearly looking at this as a white vs black race issue. It's not. As others have noted, Baltimore PD is 50% black.
Like I don't understand this counterpoint in the slightest, other than "hey a black man killed a white cop and we aren't rioting, so why should people riot when a [white] cop kills a black man?!"
Which completely ignores the fact that in one situation a COP is killing someone vs a criminal. Cops don't equate to criminals. This is a false equivalency.
These riots are fucking disgusting. They tear down all the hard work that people who are trying to enact change the right way have done. They reinforce the stereotypes perpetuating these problem. They make educated individuals and people who are trying to open the eyes of those who don't see the problems in this country look like absolute fools. They make people quate protests to riots. They divide us even further. And most importantly, they harm INNOCENT PEOPLE.
This is incredibly fucked up and looting is so opportunistic and wrong.
I don't understand why this happens. It makes me so fucking angry. Are people so stupid to see that this is going to make things worse? Or are they selfish enough that they don't give a fuck, they just want to loot a store and get free shit, even if their actions are a detriment to their movement towards equal treatment by the legal system.
It's always 1 step forward, five steps back. ALWAYS.
nothing will EVER change if people keep selfishly doing stupid shit like this. I understand an angry protest. Violence is inexcusable, but is something that I can see occurring - to a point - when tensions are running high (not saying I support it, just saying that I can see how emotions can escalate to violence).
Looting is fucking baffling. Looting is selfish. Looting are shithead burglars taking advantage of the situation to rob and steal. Fuck these people. Fuck all the people rioting and looting and undoing all the hard work that the honest individuals with truly noble intensions have put forward.
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In comment 12252589 Steve L said:
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Here in Rochester. You don't see us rioting here. The criminal (black) knocked a cop (white) down then took his gun, put it under his chin and executed him. Don't see me in the streets.
These two situations aren't remotely in the same ball park.
All I'm saying is that you don't see people rioting over a cop being executed. Were the cops wrong in Baltimore? Yes. But this guy here murdered a police officer and it's peaceful here.
Just completely missing the point.
Why would people riot over a cop being killed by a criminal (that is tragic by the way, and I hope they throw away the murderer forever)?
That makes no sense. The situations aren't even remotely comparable. A cop killing someone in their custody is totally different than a criminal killing a cop.
What is there to riot against? Rioting against criminals?
Gang members: We did not make truce to harm cops - ( New Window )
This is why I love Greg. LOL!
It's the first intelligence report in human history that appears to be mistaken. I'm aghast!
I don't know whether it was true or not. However, I'm not sure I'd accept the words of the Bloods and Crips as gospel.
Leadership is easy when all the status quo is the norm. Even if the status quo is a shitty situation which has ben the case in Balt for years. But this mayor decided to abdicate all responsibility fior the safety and protection of property to every citizen of her city by trying to play the safe rout. Unacceptable regardless of one's feeling on all the things that led up to this. Sad for the people of that place.
Just the worst.
Link - ( New Window )
I thought that was a great moment, but of course it spun into a debate on abusive parenting. Seriously.
Life in freedom lasts a lot longer than a few years with punk friends.
Later that night...
"I never said, nor would I ever say that we are giving people space to destroy our city, so my words should not be twisted"
Twisted? Maybe you just need to remind yourself what's already come out of your mouth. A public official who says that IMO shouldn't be in that position. There's really only one way to say it: she is a gotdamm fool...
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
Just the worst.
At first I felt that way and now I wonder if the true message with all this stuff is that people are just fed up with the system and these events are merely the sparks that ignite the flames. Clearly this is not about Gray. But that doesn't mean it's not about something that is a problem we should look at.
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I don't know what sparked this, but the original message of protest is completely forgotten while people loot liquor stores and check cashing places.
Just the worst.
At first I felt that way and now I wonder if the true message with all this stuff is that people are just fed up with the system and these events are merely the sparks that ignite the flames. Clearly this is not about Gray. But that doesn't mean it's not about something that is a problem we should look at.
Those truly wanting change are also disgusted by these riots, which is not only taking away from the original intent of the protests but also do almost irreparable damage to the lives of the locals. And many of these looters are opportunities, who couldn't give a shit about Gray or anyone else. They just want free stuffs when opportunities present themselves.
They were talking about that CVS having took years to be built in that area. You know that CVS will never return. And probably no other store will return to that location anytime soon.
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It's pretty much the worst possible thing you can do if you're angry about your environment being shitty, because it's only going to make things worse.
They were talking about that CVS having took years to be built in that area. You know that CVS will never return. And probably no other store will return to that location anytime soon.
And Baltimore isn't Detroit, the proximity to other thriving cities means that capital and the like aren't simply going to pick up and leave, never to return. But it could set a city with a number of big advantages back a decade or two.
Later that night...
"I never said, nor would I ever say that we are giving people space to destroy our city, so my words should not be twisted"
Twisted? Maybe you just need to remind yourself what's already come out of your mouth. A public official who says that IMO shouldn't be in that position. There's really only one way to say it: she is a gotdamm fool...
It was a terrible look for her. I mean, can you extend the benefit of the doubt that she was stressed beyond belief at watching her city be burned down? Sure, but that was a really bad moment caught on TV.
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
Armchair sociological analysis doesn't really address this. Projecting deep societal frustrations onto teenagers says a lot more about you than it does about the folks breaking things and stealing shit.
Situations like this evoke a wide range of emotions. I think my posting history is enough to show that I'm a big believer that police brutality and abuses are a huge problem in this country. I can understand the anger and helplessness that inspires. And being poor is miserable, I get that. There really isn't true poverty on the global scale in this country, but relative poverty in a country possessing incredible wealth is bad enough. I was in some rough financial shape for a while when both my wife and I were out of work, and we had to get some help from WIC and food banks. We weren't even poor by American standards yet and it was a horrible time.
Engaging in self-destructive behavior like rioting and looting makes it very hard to stay particularly sympathetic, though. Making a bad situation worse tends to negate whatever legitimate grievances you may have.
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"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
That's an unfortunate story, and among the many questions it begs the one that jumps out at me is where do you intervene? We can all agree it shouldn't be when that kid gets picked up for dealing, though it probably will be. But is the issue a CPS issue? Is it an issue of Dad's incarceration, if that is the problem? Mom's substance abuse, if that's the issue? Or is it a social issue, that will require a social solution but will likely endure with poorly timed state interventions that solve some problems but exacerbate others?
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explain all of what's going on. You have to feel pretty fucking disenfranchised to burn your community down. And that doesn't happen overnight because some guy you probably didn't even know got killed. That has to happen over a lifetime of feeling oppressed by the circumstances that surround you.
Armchair sociological analysis doesn't really address this. Projecting deep societal frustrations onto teenagers says a lot more about you than it does about the folks breaking things and stealing shit.
Oh, ok. No reason to figure out why this shit keeps happening, I guess. We'll just keep rounding up the looters until it's some other city's turn to burn.
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"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
Excellent post. The first part is very profound.
Regarding the crime, I empathize with those who truly live that struggle. But the vast majoriry of these rioting kids are not living in a situation like the one posted.
The real problem with the system is that those clamoring for these changes in the system, are supported by those that are fucking it up. When presidents, governors and mayors ask for more taxes, they are not putting the money to help fix rhings like education and social work. They blow it and then keep asking for more and the middle class get desensitized to it.
Truly a sad state of affairs.
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In comment 12253974 Metnut said:
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"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
That's an unfortunate story, and among the many questions it begs the one that jumps out at me is where do you intervene? We can all agree it shouldn't be when that kid gets picked up for dealing, though it probably will be. But is the issue a CPS issue? Is it an issue of Dad's incarceration, if that is the problem? Mom's substance abuse, if that's the issue? Or is it a social issue, that will require a social solution but will likely endure with poorly timed state interventions that solve some problems but exacerbate others?
Sometimes dune it is literally a combination of all of those factors. And where do I intervene? On the block. With the dealers and fiends, pimps and prostitutes. I spent 6 years in the National Guard and never had a gun pointed at me. That's happened 4 times at my job, including once by the police swat team because I matched the description of a shooter in the area.
What I personally do is connect families to resources in the community to help them overcome whatever struggle they may be dealing with, be it mental health, drug abuse, getting an education, etc. But in truth that's what we "try" to do. By the time people reach us it's usually too late and we're just another agent of a system that has failed them for a lifetime. I have what I'd call 2 true success stories in my years as a social worker. Over a dozen clients have died, I've been around for two of those-discovered a young man after an OD and arrived at another's house where he had just OD'd, just happened to visit that day and ended up doing CPR on someone for the first (and hopefully only) time ever.
Situations like this evoke a wide range of emotions. I think my posting history is enough to show that I'm a big believer that police brutality and abuses are a huge problem in this country. I can understand the anger and helplessness that inspires. And being poor is miserable, I get that. There really isn't true poverty on the global scale in this country, but relative poverty in a country possessing incredible wealth is bad enough. I was in some rough financial shape for a while when both my wife and I were out of work, and we had to get some help from WIC and food banks. We weren't even poor by American standards yet and it was a horrible time.
Engaging in self-destructive behavior like rioting and looting makes it very hard to stay particularly sympathetic, though. Making a bad situation worse tends to negate whatever legitimate grievances you may have.
Also well said.
Freddy Gray wasn't even the first person killed by them.
Link - ( New Window )
They don't want any trouble... - ( New Window )
When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse.
The people now calling for nonviolence are not prepared to answer these questions. Many of them are charged with enforcing the very policies that led to Gray's death, and yet they can offer no rational justification for Gray's death and so they appeal for calm. But there was no official appeal for calm when Gray was being arrested. There was no appeal for calm when Jerriel Lyles was assaulted. (The blow was so heavy. My eyes swelled up. Blood was dripping down my nose and out my eye.) There was no claim for nonviolence on behalf of Venus Green. (Bitch, you aint no better than any of the other old black bitches I have locked up.) There was no plea for peace on behalf of Starr Brown. (They slammed me down on my face, Brown added, her voice cracking. The skin was gone on my face.")
When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is "correct" or "wise," any more than a forest fire can be "correct" or "wise." Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community.
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For some, such injuries have been inflicted by what is known as a "rough ride" an "unsanctioned technique" in which police vans are driven to cause "injury or pain" to unbuckled, handcuffed detainees, former city police officer Charles J. Key testified as an expert five years ago in a lawsuit over Johnson's subsequent death.
Freddy Gray wasn't even the first person killed by them. Link - ( New Window )
I have a lot of friends in Baltimore and spend a lot of time there, have even considered moving there. Anyway, one night 2 summers ago a convertible with 4 young black guys was cruising around. This was on Lombard near the Harbor. They were hooting and hollering, the guys in the back seat were occasionally propping themselves up and sitting on the top of the back seat near the trunk. They were being goofy and having fun. I guess you could argue that the driver was distracted, but it didn't warrant the response that came. BPD pulled them over, two cops got out, and proceeded to pull both guys out of the back seat and lay into them. The light changed and we drove on, but I was positive I would be seeing it on the news the next day but I never heard anything about it. Most of my friends live in gentrifying neighborhoods in East or near Druid Hill Park and they'll tell you straight up: I'm more afraid of the cops than I am the drug dealers".
Reads like brownstain authored that piece.
Before he died, he complained to his doctor that he was not buckled into his seat when the police van "made a sharp turn," sending him "face first" into the interior of the van, court records state. He was "violently thrown around the back of the vehicle as [police officers] drove in an aggressive fashion, taking turns so as to injure [Johnson] who was helplessly cuffed," the lawsuit stated.
Johnson, who suffered a fractured neck, died two weeks later of pneumonia caused by his paralysis. His family sued, and a jury agreed that three officers were negligent in the way they treated Johnson. The initial $7.4 million award, however, was eventually reduced to $219,000 by Maryland's Court of Special Appeals because state law caps such payouts.
This family was screwed in so many different ways.
The 43 year old plumber (who I'm assuming is the father) gets a broken neck through malicious intent for a public urination ticket.
They sue the family through what I assume was at least a lengthy lawsuit.
They receive a payout of 7.4 million, but this is reduced to $210,000.
I wonder how much of that they received after taxes and legal fees.
Really really sad.
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The most sensational case in Baltimore involved Johnson, a 43-year-old plumber who was arrested for public urination. He was handcuffed and placed in a transport van in good health. He emerged a quadriplegic.
Before he died, he complained to his doctor that he was not buckled into his seat when the police van "made a sharp turn," sending him "face first" into the interior of the van, court records state. He was "violently thrown around the back of the vehicle as [police officers] drove in an aggressive fashion, taking turns so as to injure [Johnson] who was helplessly cuffed," the lawsuit stated.
Johnson, who suffered a fractured neck, died two weeks later of pneumonia caused by his paralysis. His family sued, and a jury agreed that three officers were negligent in the way they treated Johnson. The initial $7.4 million award, however, was eventually reduced to $219,000 by Maryland's Court of Special Appeals because state law caps such payouts.
This family was screwed in so many different ways.
The 43 year old plumber (who I'm assuming is the father) gets a broken neck through malicious intent for a public urination ticket.
They sue the family through what I assume was at least a lengthy lawsuit.
They receive a payout of 7.4 million, but this is reduced to $210,000.
I wonder how much of that they received after taxes and legal fees.
Really really sad.
Not sure about legal fees, but taxes don't apply to these types of payments.
it will be interesting to hear what other passenger in transport van has to say.
At this point, looks like he may have sustained neck injury prior to being placed in van. then, if in fact there was a rough ride or even a regular ride without being belted in - could be enough to turn a fracture into a larger break.
it would appear that the mistakes made here are really about no-brain, best practices.
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The most sensational case in Baltimore involved Johnson, a 43-year-old plumber who was arrested for public urination. He was handcuffed and placed in a transport van in good health. He emerged a quadriplegic.
Before he died, he complained to his doctor that he was not buckled into his seat when the police van "made a sharp turn," sending him "face first" into the interior of the van, court records state. He was "violently thrown around the back of the vehicle as [police officers] drove in an aggressive fashion, taking turns so as to injure [Johnson] who was helplessly cuffed," the lawsuit stated.
Johnson, who suffered a fractured neck, died two weeks later of pneumonia caused by his paralysis. His family sued, and a jury agreed that three officers were negligent in the way they treated Johnson. The initial $7.4 million award, however, was eventually reduced to $219,000 by Maryland's Court of Special Appeals because state law caps such payouts.
This family was screwed in so many different ways.
The 43 year old plumber (who I'm assuming is the father) gets a broken neck through malicious intent for a public urination ticket.
They sue the family through what I assume was at least a lengthy lawsuit.
They receive a payout of 7.4 million, but this is reduced to $210,000.
I wonder how much of that they received after taxes and legal fees.
Really really sad.
Not sure about legal fees, but taxes don't apply to these types of payments.
True, I'm not sure, I probably had it wrong. For some reason I assumed they would be taxed as they were still pre-tax income. It's been a long time since the Series 7 and I am no longer in finance...
Everyone, this is Larry Gilliard. Many of you may recognize him. He is a Baltimore native, and he portrayed D'Angelo Barksdale on HBO's "The Wire."
He flew in this morning, and arrived at CVS with his broom in hand.
He didn't know what to expect when he arrived.... but he JUST CAME.
#ThanksLarry
How does burning a CVS make a statement to the police that you feel have mistreated you?
How does burning a CVS make a statement to the police that you feel have mistreated you?
Looting and protesting are two different things. The looters aren't trying to send a message to the police, the actual peaceful protesters were. The looters were simply looting. No message, nothing of substance to say or do, they were simply capitalizing on the situation to get free stuff.
They weren't just throwing rocks at the Fire Dept either, some people were actually cutting the hoses with switchblades in an attempt to keep the fire going.
if I may ask, where did you obtain your degree in CJ?
Regarding your assertion that a Mayor of a major city would not learn from a decision that led to millions in property damage and personal injuries ...well, I'll just go back to ignoring you.
1) Northeastern
2) My quote about 'not learning' was about the underlying social problems in society, which I thought was the subject, NOT about the mayor.
I'll say this, I know a Cop I went to college with who works for the Boston PD. Sound person, excellent at calmly diffusing situations.
Know 2 more cops who used to be neighbors, college educated, very professional, work in Austin and Salt Lake.
Then I know the redneck who is a teabagger and gun nut, who got rejected by FFX CO, who used his body camera to film himself pulling over a black driver in PG and hassling him, and showed it to his roomate thinking it was cool.
I know another person who is an air traffic controller. Not college educated, from the south, and was scheduled to be a Cop until the FAA took him (pays a lot more).
This person believes all rioters are thugs, that because he has a black friend that owns an $80,000 Audi that racial inequaility is garbage just made up by lazy people.
When I saw that crap on tape in Charleston, SC that thug hack looked just the same.
My point is, I think affluent areas have very professional staffs (though even FFX CO has had the Greer incident and jail tazer killing); but poor areas, red areas, the backcountry, I'm sorry but I see a lot of D student drop out gun lovers who like bossing people around and DO NOT care TO UNDERSTAND the NUIANCES of a complex society.
THE GOOD COPS need to speak out against these hacks like the clean MLB players did against the roiders.
When will any large stores want to return to these neighborhoods? How will they attract investment dollars again?
At the same time, I wish I knew what one could say they need to do in order to solve their often ignored problems, and I just don't know because the whole system is messed up. Their interests matter far less than having a vote on abolishing the estate tax, sadly.
If this and the curfew is what it takes to keep thugs at bay then I am all for it. We should do this in every city to keep the peace.
However the curfew must be really hurting the motel and bar business in Baltimore.
Can't wait to see the orioles play tomorrow afternoon in an empty stadium
Hope the Baltimore City Paper has a good attorney on retainer. - ( New Window )
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EricJ - formerly TylerAimee, yes, because the looters represent the majority of the protestors. You are fucking dense.
You don't have to have such nihilistic conclusions. The underclass is a product of the inequalities inherent in a capitalistic system, yes, but you can ask yourself: how much capitalism do you want? And if the rioters aren't pacified by economics or social law and order, you can ask: how much capitalism can we get away with?
My unwanted opinion is that unless you're in the upper 1%, this level isn't worth it.
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even the seemingly callous care. But what can you do? There is no carefully crafted policy that's going to get fathers back in the home, that is going to bring meaningful, remunerative work to the unskilled and provide positive role models for children, that is going to prod semi-interested students (the sort who in a suburban high school end up at four year colleges) into giving a shit when the schools are dangerous and home life is worse. We could debate whether certain policies exacerbated things - be it drug policy, welfare policy, whatever your chosen bogeyman - but the fact of the matter is these problems are intractable. People want to fix them but it is hard as hell to do so and it probably has a lot less to do with anything Congress can dream up or bureaucrats can implement than they'd like to admit. So we debate measures with much narrower and shallower impact.
You don't have to have such nihilistic conclusions. The underclass is a product of the inequalities inherent in a capitalistic system, yes, but you can ask yourself: how much capitalism do you want? And if the rioters aren't pacified by economics or social law and order, you can ask: how much capitalism can we get away with?
My unwanted opinion is that unless you're in the upper 1%, this level isn't worth it.
But it's not like this underclass (and not just the African American component to it) sprung whole cloth in January 1981. Income inequality is a serious problem but I'm not sure the problems of substance abuse, criminality, illegitimacy and the like - intergenerational poverty - can simply be explained away as the function of income inequality and the excesses of capitalism.
They exist, though they tend to be far less prevalent, and the resources are there to address them. There were things I really didn't like about Coming Apart by Charles Murray (I certainly have mixed feelings about Murray himself) but he illustrates his point well. There is a strong economic component to things, but the more significant divergences are social.
Question: what brought about the end to the riots in 60's, early 70's? They were way worse than what we've seen so far, and they ended. Anyone remember?
What do you think? One thing I know for sure is that it wasn't the mid to late 70's economy. That varied moderate to severe suckitude.
I just don't accept this argument at all if inequalities refers to income rather than work vs no work. Even poor Americans have incomes far above non-Americans who lead orderly, successful lives. So why is the American underclass generally so toxic to others and so unhappy? I think cultural reasons have to play a large role, which is why I found Charles Murray's "Coming Apart" so interesting. I also think a completely dysfunctional income support system run by US government plays a large role as well.
Now, if by inequality you mean the divide between people with steady work vs those who don't, I think that's a much stronger argument. But solutions to that sort of inequality are very different from directly addressing income inequality and involve loosening US regulatory and compensation restrictions.
* Election of black mayors in some of the major cities. Coleman Young in Detroit, Maynard Jackson in Atlanta, Tom Bradley in LA and eventually Harold Washington in Chicago
* No assassinations of civil rights leaders at that time. The politicians who got shot at, wounded or killed were George Wallace, Gerald Ford (twice), Harvey Milk and Ronald Reagan.
* Great Society programs providing food stamps, AFDC etc.
* Indirectly, the end of the war in Vietnam
* The fact that some of the impoverished areas (the Bronx is burning) got hollowed out population wise to the extent that there wasn't a critical mass. Fort Apache the Bronx got renamed "The Little House on the Prairie" during this period.
As I said before, it sure wasn't a caused by a vibrant economy. Inflation was a recurring problem. The decline of the US manufacturing base and auto industry, and the blue collar jobs that went with it, essentially got it's start during this time. Before that there was a North to South migration. This was job elimination. And at this point it really wasn't offshoring. Toyota didn't move an American plant to Tokyo, they just cleaned Detroit's clock. Read Halberstam's "The Reckoning" for an account ofthat.
* Election of black mayors in some of the major cities. Coleman Young in Detroit, Maynard Jackson in Atlanta, Tom Bradley in LA and eventually Harold Washington in Chicago
* No assassinations of civil rights leaders at that time. The politicians who got shot at, wounded or killed were George Wallace, Gerald Ford (twice), Harvey Milk and Ronald Reagan.
* Great Society programs providing food stamps, AFDC etc.
* Indirectly, the end of the war in Vietnam
* The fact that some of the impoverished areas (the Bronx is burning) got hollowed out population wise to the extent that there wasn't a critical mass. Fort Apache the Bronx got renamed "The Little House on the Prairie" during this period.
As I said before, it sure wasn't a caused by a vibrant economy. Inflation was a recurring problem. The decline of the US manufacturing base and auto industry, and the blue collar jobs that went with it, essentially got it's start during this time. Before that there was a North to South migration. This was job elimination. And at this point it really wasn't offshoring. Toyota didn't move an American plant to Tokyo, they just cleaned Detroit's clock. Read Halberstam's "The Reckoning" for an account ofthat.
I think that explains it very well. The change of leadership to represent the communities affected was big, but obviously thats not going to work in Baltimore.
(A little levity for a heavy topic)
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I can't cite any one factor, and I don't think it was any one factor. What probably had an impact, and degrees obviously vary, are:
* Election of black mayors in some of the major cities. Coleman Young in Detroit, Maynard Jackson in Atlanta, Tom Bradley in LA and eventually Harold Washington in Chicago
* No assassinations of civil rights leaders at that time. The politicians who got shot at, wounded or killed were George Wallace, Gerald Ford (twice), Harvey Milk and Ronald Reagan.
* Great Society programs providing food stamps, AFDC etc.
* Indirectly, the end of the war in Vietnam
* The fact that some of the impoverished areas (the Bronx is burning) got hollowed out population wise to the extent that there wasn't a critical mass. Fort Apache the Bronx got renamed "The Little House on the Prairie" during this period.
As I said before, it sure wasn't a caused by a vibrant economy. Inflation was a recurring problem. The decline of the US manufacturing base and auto industry, and the blue collar jobs that went with it, essentially got it's start during this time. Before that there was a North to South migration. This was job elimination. And at this point it really wasn't offshoring. Toyota didn't move an American plant to Tokyo, they just cleaned Detroit's clock. Read Halberstam's "The Reckoning" for an account ofthat.
I think that explains it very well. The change of leadership to represent the communities affected was big, but obviously thats not going to work in Baltimore.
I forgot Carl Stokes in Cleveland.
And while he may have kept the cauldron from boiling over, IMHO Coleman Young might have been the worst thing that could have happened to Detroit.
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In comment 12252686 hudson said:
Hudson you're a fraud you have to graduate first to be Summa Cum Laude not an undergrad. you are a troll of the worst kind
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In comment 12252208 gtt350 said:
3) Police get paid and trained to professional defuse and appropriately handle tense situations. Apprently though we have a culture where ther hacks are robitically programmed to shoot anybody who doesn't proptly obey their highness. That is what happens when you take college dropout 2nd amendmant loving morons and give them the badge.
The irony of a half-wit like you insulting the intelligence of law enforcement officers. You're either an imbecile or a fucking troll, either way you're awful.
Im actually a Summa Cum Laude Criminal Justice undergrad major. I know this subject as well as anybody.
I happen to know several Cops.
3 with college degrees, 1 without.
The 1 without is a redneck gun nut who when he saw Obama attending the Selma Memorial said "N****** visiting n******," when I challenged the hack he ran on the same lines about blacks lining up to steal air Jordan's at night.
This Cop works in PG County and shot an unarmed black man this summer. I see plenty of D student drop outs like him; fortunately he has been rejected twice by Fairfax County (though even that agency has issues see John Greer or the Feb jail death).
It's disappointing a rather professionally agency like FFX Co still has the same cover our asses our shit don't stick mentality when it comes to law enforcement accountability.
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Yes, that sounds like a perp who's angling for a sweet plea deal. However, what in the hell were they doing promising a final report by May 1. The report should go to the prosecutor's office first (and possibly the DOJ), who may request clarifications and further information. An artificial deadline like that just increases the tension either through the reaction to missing the deadline or charges filed without an adequate vetting of the evidence.
Does sound like a perp looking for a deal.
Fair enough. But promising a final report by May 1 is a little like hitting yourself over the head with a 2X4 because it feels so good when you stop.
The unlawful imprisonment seems a little different. I am guessing it had to do with an arrest not supported by probable cause. In NYS, that would not be criminal unless it was intentional. When an officer makes a bad arrest based on misunderstanding of the law - there are legal means to address that, but are usually based on constitutional grounds.
It will be real interesting to see how the statements read.
One final note, I thought they might have some exposure re: negligent homicide. RE: a charge of murder - have to see how that shakes out.
Also, the data show that the most potent predictor for later "success" (pick your metric) among both boys and girls in poverty is whether there is a male figure residing in the home. As a recent series of NY Times articles has shown there is a paucity of available males among minorities due to high homicide and incarceration rates.