NW Baltimore has been a powderkeg, waiting to blow for a long time. Pent up frustration and years of disenfranchised folks seeing a bad environment remain that way.
It's important to note that a peaceful protest was going on in the city in the week prior to Saturday. Then, the peaceful protest turned violent when those "outside agitators" came to the city and stirred up anger. That was controlled pretty quickly by Baltimore City Police and I assume the Mayor thought that if they could handle that, they could handle whatever was to happen next. But nobody could have expected what happened last night.
Most of what was seen on TV last night was people with very little means seeing an opportunity. The police force was stretched thin, with riots scattered across a city that is 80 square miles. Meanwhile, the Orioles and the MLB failed to call off the game until 6:30 or so, forcing many in the force to set up barricades to prevent the violence from reaching downtown.
The Mayor should have called in the Guard sooner, absolutely. How much sooner? I'm not sure. Like a previous poster said, it's an awfully difficult balance to maintain... and prior to 3 p.m. yesterday, the city was peaceful and all there was to warn anyone was Twitter chatter - something I'm sure happens quite a bit.
I hope this doesn't continue today. With a 10 p.m. curfew and the National Guard in town, I don't think it will. But what I do know is NW Baltimore isn't your average community... hell, it's not your average ghetto (for lack of a better term). And I hope the police, who can't seem to get a grip on the neighborhoods on a normal day, have a good plan for tonight.
In Baltimore outside of the inner harbor and fells point and say it is a great town. It's essentially Camden with sports teams and a harbor.
I have been there several times. I am a chef, and one of the line cooks I work with is from Baltimore. We have been down there several times to see his elderly Mom. Although the neighbourhood is poor where she lives, the people are very nice.
It is not as bad as Camden N.J., which is the sphincter of the world. It is the ugliest, most depressing blight to society that I can name. I hate Camden N.J.
What kinds of actions will it take to make it widely understood that all policing is racist terror, and justice can only come with its permanent abolition?
And what solution would this genius suggest as an alternative to having cops?
In Baltimore outside of the inner harbor and fells point and say it is a great town. It's essentially Camden with sports teams and a harbor.
You clearly haven't been to Locust Point, Little Italy, Harbor East, Canton, Mount Vernon, Federal Hill or any of the other number of neighborhoods in the city where people are kind and culture and history are rich. Honestly, there's a lot more to see in Baltimore than the Inner Harbor and you'll find the least amount of locals there.
In other words, you're talking out of your ass.
I'm not sure meeting a lot of the locals is something you'd really Â
Why is that, Greg? Would you care to elaborate or can I assume your opinion of the city stems from the general nose-high, stick up your ass attitude you learned in Charlottesville?
RE: Meanwhile we have a trial for a cop killer going on Â
Here in Rochester. You don't see us rioting here. The criminal (black) knocked a cop (white) down then took his gun, put it under his chin and executed him. Don't see me in the streets.
What is there to riot about? A criminal was caught and is on trial. Isn't that how the legal system is supposed to work?
People really show their hand when they make this particular type of statement. You are clearly looking at this as a white vs black race issue. It's not. As others have noted, Baltimore PD is 50% black.
Like I don't understand this counterpoint in the slightest, other than "hey a black man killed a white cop and we aren't rioting, so why should people riot when a [white] cop kills a black man?!"
Which completely ignores the fact that in one situation a COP is killing someone vs a criminal. Cops don't equate to criminals. This is a false equivalency.
These riots are fucking disgusting. They tear down all the hard work that people who are trying to enact change the right way have done. They reinforce the stereotypes perpetuating these problem. They make educated individuals and people who are trying to open the eyes of those who don't see the problems in this country look like absolute fools. They make people quate protests to riots. They divide us even further. And most importantly, they harm INNOCENT PEOPLE.
This is incredibly fucked up and looting is so opportunistic and wrong.
I don't understand why this happens. It makes me so fucking angry. Are people so stupid to see that this is going to make things worse? Or are they selfish enough that they don't give a fuck, they just want to loot a store and get free shit, even if their actions are a detriment to their movement towards equal treatment by the legal system.
It's always 1 step forward, five steps back. ALWAYS.
nothing will EVER change if people keep selfishly doing stupid shit like this. I understand an angry protest. Violence is inexcusable, but is something that I can see occurring - to a point - when tensions are running high (not saying I support it, just saying that I can see how emotions can escalate to violence).
Looting is fucking baffling. Looting is selfish. Looting are shithead burglars taking advantage of the situation to rob and steal. Fuck these people. Fuck all the people rioting and looting and undoing all the hard work that the honest individuals with truly noble intensions have put forward.
Oh, I didn't need to go to Charlottesville to think I'm better than Â
Here in Rochester. You don't see us rioting here. The criminal (black) knocked a cop (white) down then took his gun, put it under his chin and executed him. Don't see me in the streets.
These two situations aren't remotely in the same ball park.
All I'm saying is that you don't see people rioting over a cop being executed. Were the cops wrong in Baltimore? Yes. But this guy here murdered a police officer and it's peaceful here.
Just completely missing the point.
Why would people riot over a cop being killed by a criminal (that is tragic by the way, and I hope they throw away the murderer forever)?
That makes no sense. The situations aren't even remotely comparable. A cop killing someone in their custody is totally different than a criminal killing a cop.
What is there to riot against? Rioting against criminals?
the rumor about the gangs teaming up to take out police officers was totally untrue (despite being repeated by the Chief of Police at his press conference.) Gang members: We did not make truce to harm cops - ( New Window )
It's the first intelligence report in human history that appears to be mistaken. I'm aghast!
the rumor about the gangs teaming up to take out police officers was totally untrue (despite being repeated by the Chief of Police at his press conference.) Gang members: We did not make truce to harm cops - ( New Window )
I don't know whether it was true or not. However, I'm not sure I'd accept the words of the Bloods and Crips as gospel.
"Failed in her biggest moment" I would challenge anyone to find a better description of her decision. I've been watching this off and on and I sensed she was trying to do what Mayor's have to do in these situations - walk the line between both camps. But, I have no idea why she would think allowing people to damage property would be a viable strategy.
Leadership is easy when all the status quo is the norm. Even if the status quo is a shitty situation which has ben the case in Balt for years. But this mayor decided to abdicate all responsibility fior the safety and protection of property to every citizen of her city by trying to play the safe rout. Unacceptable regardless of one's feeling on all the things that led up to this. Sad for the people of that place.
"It's a very difficult balancing act because while we tried to make sure they were protected from the cars, ya know, the things that were going on we also gave those who wished to destroy space to do that as well"
Later that night...
"I never said, nor would I ever say that we are giving people space to destroy our city, so my words should not be twisted"
Twisted? Maybe you just need to remind yourself what's already come out of your mouth. A public official who says that IMO shouldn't be in that position. There's really only one way to say it: she is a gotdamm fool...
Saw this elsewhere and thought it was 100% right on Â
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
I don't know what sparked this, but the original message of protest is completely forgotten while people loot liquor stores and check cashing places.
Just the worst.
At first I felt that way and now I wonder if the true message with all this stuff is that people are just fed up with the system and these events are merely the sparks that ignite the flames. Clearly this is not about Gray. But that doesn't mean it's not about something that is a problem we should look at.
I don't know what sparked this, but the original message of protest is completely forgotten while people loot liquor stores and check cashing places.
Just the worst.
At first I felt that way and now I wonder if the true message with all this stuff is that people are just fed up with the system and these events are merely the sparks that ignite the flames. Clearly this is not about Gray. But that doesn't mean it's not about something that is a problem we should look at.
Those truly wanting change are also disgusted by these riots, which is not only taking away from the original intent of the protests but also do almost irreparable damage to the lives of the locals. And many of these looters are opportunities, who couldn't give a shit about Gray or anyone else. They just want free stuffs when opportunities present themselves.
Destroying your own community never has a positive outcome Â
It's pretty much the worst possible thing you can do if you're angry about your environment being shitty, because it's only going to make things worse.
RE: Destroying your own community never has a positive outcome Â
It's pretty much the worst possible thing you can do if you're angry about your environment being shitty, because it's only going to make things worse.
They were talking about that CVS having took years to be built in that area. You know that CVS will never return. And probably no other store will return to that location anytime soon.
I would say there are opportunists but opportunism can hardly Â
explain all of what's going on. You have to feel pretty fucking disenfranchised to burn your community down. And that doesn't happen overnight because some guy you probably didn't even know got killed. That has to happen over a lifetime of feeling oppressed by the circumstances that surround you.
RE: RE: Destroying your own community never has a positive outcome Â
It's pretty much the worst possible thing you can do if you're angry about your environment being shitty, because it's only going to make things worse.
They were talking about that CVS having took years to be built in that area. You know that CVS will never return. And probably no other store will return to that location anytime soon.
And Baltimore isn't Detroit, the proximity to other thriving cities means that capital and the like aren't simply going to pick up and leave, never to return. But it could set a city with a number of big advantages back a decade or two.
"It's a very difficult balancing act because while we tried to make sure they were protected from the cars, ya know, the things that were going on we also gave those who wished to destroy space to do that as well"
Later that night...
"I never said, nor would I ever say that we are giving people space to destroy our city, so my words should not be twisted"
Twisted? Maybe you just need to remind yourself what's already come out of your mouth. A public official who says that IMO shouldn't be in that position. There's really only one way to say it: she is a gotdamm fool...
It was a terrible look for her. I mean, can you extend the benefit of the doubt that she was stressed beyond belief at watching her city be burned down? Sure, but that was a really bad moment caught on TV.
like a CVS & Cell Phone store get burnt out & looted, they get replaced by Liquor Stores & Check Cashing places. Take a look at Watts/Compton years after the riots.
RE: Saw this elsewhere and thought it was 100% right on Â
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
RE: I would say there are opportunists but opportunism can hardly Â
explain all of what's going on. You have to feel pretty fucking disenfranchised to burn your community down. And that doesn't happen overnight because some guy you probably didn't even know got killed. That has to happen over a lifetime of feeling oppressed by the circumstances that surround you.
Armchair sociological analysis doesn't really address this. Projecting deep societal frustrations onto teenagers says a lot more about you than it does about the folks breaking things and stealing shit.
Good luck getting anyone to ever open a business there again. I'm guessing there was already only the most basic of services available.
Situations like this evoke a wide range of emotions. I think my posting history is enough to show that I'm a big believer that police brutality and abuses are a huge problem in this country. I can understand the anger and helplessness that inspires. And being poor is miserable, I get that. There really isn't true poverty on the global scale in this country, but relative poverty in a country possessing incredible wealth is bad enough. I was in some rough financial shape for a while when both my wife and I were out of work, and we had to get some help from WIC and food banks. We weren't even poor by American standards yet and it was a horrible time.
Engaging in self-destructive behavior like rioting and looting makes it very hard to stay particularly sympathetic, though. Making a bad situation worse tends to negate whatever legitimate grievances you may have.
RE: RE: Saw this elsewhere and thought it was 100% right on Â
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
That's an unfortunate story, and among the many questions it begs the one that jumps out at me is where do you intervene? We can all agree it shouldn't be when that kid gets picked up for dealing, though it probably will be. But is the issue a CPS issue? Is it an issue of Dad's incarceration, if that is the problem? Mom's substance abuse, if that's the issue? Or is it a social issue, that will require a social solution but will likely endure with poorly timed state interventions that solve some problems but exacerbate others?
RE: RE: I would say there are opportunists but opportunism can hardly Â
explain all of what's going on. You have to feel pretty fucking disenfranchised to burn your community down. And that doesn't happen overnight because some guy you probably didn't even know got killed. That has to happen over a lifetime of feeling oppressed by the circumstances that surround you.
Armchair sociological analysis doesn't really address this. Projecting deep societal frustrations onto teenagers says a lot more about you than it does about the folks breaking things and stealing shit.
Oh, ok. No reason to figure out why this shit keeps happening, I guess. We'll just keep rounding up the looters until it's some other city's turn to burn.
it says that they see an opportunity, and that they're piggybacking off the tens of thousands who are mad as hell and want to march and protest and picket and yell at anyone who will listen.
RE: RE: Saw this elsewhere and thought it was 100% right on Â
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
Excellent post. The first part is very profound.
Regarding the crime, I empathize with those who truly live that struggle. But the vast majoriry of these rioting kids are not living in a situation like the one posted.
The real problem with the system is that those clamoring for these changes in the system, are supported by those that are fucking it up. When presidents, governors and mayors ask for more taxes, they are not putting the money to help fix rhings like education and social work. They blow it and then keep asking for more and the middle class get desensitized to it.
Truly a sad state of affairs.
RE: RE: RE: Saw this elsewhere and thought it was 100% right on Â
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
That's an unfortunate story, and among the many questions it begs the one that jumps out at me is where do you intervene? We can all agree it shouldn't be when that kid gets picked up for dealing, though it probably will be. But is the issue a CPS issue? Is it an issue of Dad's incarceration, if that is the problem? Mom's substance abuse, if that's the issue? Or is it a social issue, that will require a social solution but will likely endure with poorly timed state interventions that solve some problems but exacerbate others?
Sometimes dune it is literally a combination of all of those factors. And where do I intervene? On the block. With the dealers and fiends, pimps and prostitutes. I spent 6 years in the National Guard and never had a gun pointed at me. That's happened 4 times at my job, including once by the police swat team because I matched the description of a shooter in the area.
What I personally do is connect families to resources in the community to help them overcome whatever struggle they may be dealing with, be it mental health, drug abuse, getting an education, etc. But in truth that's what we "try" to do. By the time people reach us it's usually too late and we're just another agent of a system that has failed them for a lifetime. I have what I'd call 2 true success stories in my years as a social worker. Over a dozen clients have died, I've been around for two of those-discovered a young man after an OD and arrived at another's house where he had just OD'd, just happened to visit that day and ended up doing CPR on someone for the first (and hopefully only) time ever.
Good luck getting anyone to ever open a business there again. I'm guessing there was already only the most basic of services available.
Situations like this evoke a wide range of emotions. I think my posting history is enough to show that I'm a big believer that police brutality and abuses are a huge problem in this country. I can understand the anger and helplessness that inspires. And being poor is miserable, I get that. There really isn't true poverty on the global scale in this country, but relative poverty in a country possessing incredible wealth is bad enough. I was in some rough financial shape for a while when both my wife and I were out of work, and we had to get some help from WIC and food banks. We weren't even poor by American standards yet and it was a horrible time.
Engaging in self-destructive behavior like rioting and looting makes it very hard to stay particularly sympathetic, though. Making a bad situation worse tends to negate whatever legitimate grievances you may have.
Also well said.
Truth be told most days I feel a helluva lot more like Â
some strange combination of babysitter/bounty hunter than anything I studied to do. Am I applying micro level practice principles when I meet someone? Of course. But I've also gotta worry about the neon sign blinking over my head that screams "Outsider! Dont belong here! Might even be a cop with the warrant squad!"
Rough rides are a thing in Baltimore, apparently. Â
For some, such injuries have been inflicted by what is known as a "rough ride" — an "unsanctioned technique" in which police vans are driven to cause "injury or pain" to unbuckled, handcuffed detainees, former city police officer Charles J. Key testified as an expert five years ago in a lawsuit over Johnson's subsequent death.
Freddy Gray wasn't even the first person killed by them. Link - ( New Window )
Now, tonight, I turn on the news and I see politicians calling for young people in Baltimore to remain peaceful and "nonviolent." These well-intended pleas strike me as the right answer to the wrong question. To understand the question, it's worth remembering what, specifically, happened to Freddie Gray. An officer made eye contact with Gray. Gray, for unknown reasons, ran. The officer and his colleagues then detained Gray. They found him in possession of a switchblade. They arrested him while he yelled in pain. And then, within an hour, his spine was mostly severed. A week later, he was dead. What specifically was the crime here? What particular threat did Freddie Gray pose? Why is mere eye contact and then running worthy of detention at the hands of the state? Why is Freddie Gray dead?
When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse.
The people now calling for nonviolence are not prepared to answer these questions. Many of them are charged with enforcing the very policies that led to Gray's death, and yet they can offer no rational justification for Gray's death and so they appeal for calm. But there was no official appeal for calm when Gray was being arrested. There was no appeal for calm when Jerriel Lyles was assaulted. (“The blow was so heavy. My eyes swelled up. Blood was dripping down my nose and out my eye.”) There was no claim for nonviolence on behalf of Venus Green. (“Bitch, you ain’t no better than any of the other old black bitches I have locked up.”) There was no plea for peace on behalf of Starr Brown. (“They slammed me down on my face,” Brown added, her voice cracking. “The skin was gone on my face.")
When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is "correct" or "wise," any more than a forest fire can be "correct" or "wise." Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community.
For some, such injuries have been inflicted by what is known as a "rough ride" — an "unsanctioned technique" in which police vans are driven to cause "injury or pain" to unbuckled, handcuffed detainees, former city police officer Charles J. Key testified as an expert five years ago in a lawsuit over Johnson's subsequent death.
Freddy Gray wasn't even the first person killed by them. Link - ( New Window )
I have a lot of friends in Baltimore and spend a lot of time there, have even considered moving there. Anyway, one night 2 summers ago a convertible with 4 young black guys was cruising around. This was on Lombard near the Harbor. They were hooting and hollering, the guys in the back seat were occasionally propping themselves up and sitting on the top of the back seat near the trunk. They were being goofy and having fun. I guess you could argue that the driver was distracted, but it didn't warrant the response that came. BPD pulled them over, two cops got out, and proceeded to pull both guys out of the back seat and lay into them. The light changed and we drove on, but I was positive I would be seeing it on the news the next day but I never heard anything about it. Most of my friends live in gentrifying neighborhoods in East or near Druid Hill Park and they'll tell you straight up: I'm more afraid of the cops than I am the drug dealers".
Link - ( New Window )
NW Baltimore has been a powderkeg, waiting to blow for a long time. Pent up frustration and years of disenfranchised folks seeing a bad environment remain that way.
It's important to note that a peaceful protest was going on in the city in the week prior to Saturday. Then, the peaceful protest turned violent when those "outside agitators" came to the city and stirred up anger. That was controlled pretty quickly by Baltimore City Police and I assume the Mayor thought that if they could handle that, they could handle whatever was to happen next. But nobody could have expected what happened last night.
Most of what was seen on TV last night was people with very little means seeing an opportunity. The police force was stretched thin, with riots scattered across a city that is 80 square miles. Meanwhile, the Orioles and the MLB failed to call off the game until 6:30 or so, forcing many in the force to set up barricades to prevent the violence from reaching downtown.
The Mayor should have called in the Guard sooner, absolutely. How much sooner? I'm not sure. Like a previous poster said, it's an awfully difficult balance to maintain... and prior to 3 p.m. yesterday, the city was peaceful and all there was to warn anyone was Twitter chatter - something I'm sure happens quite a bit.
I hope this doesn't continue today. With a 10 p.m. curfew and the National Guard in town, I don't think it will. But what I do know is NW Baltimore isn't your average community... hell, it's not your average ghetto (for lack of a better term). And I hope the police, who can't seem to get a grip on the neighborhoods on a normal day, have a good plan for tonight.
I have been there several times. I am a chef, and one of the line cooks I work with is from Baltimore. We have been down there several times to see his elderly Mom. Although the neighbourhood is poor where she lives, the people are very nice.
It is not as bad as Camden N.J., which is the sphincter of the world. It is the ugliest, most depressing blight to society that I can name. I hate Camden N.J.
And what solution would this genius suggest as an alternative to having cops?
You clearly haven't been to Locust Point, Little Italy, Harbor East, Canton, Mount Vernon, Federal Hill or any of the other number of neighborhoods in the city where people are kind and culture and history are rich. Honestly, there's a lot more to see in Baltimore than the Inner Harbor and you'll find the least amount of locals there.
In other words, you're talking out of your ass.
Why is that, Greg? Would you care to elaborate or can I assume your opinion of the city stems from the general nose-high, stick up your ass attitude you learned in Charlottesville?
What is there to riot about? A criminal was caught and is on trial. Isn't that how the legal system is supposed to work?
People really show their hand when they make this particular type of statement. You are clearly looking at this as a white vs black race issue. It's not. As others have noted, Baltimore PD is 50% black.
Like I don't understand this counterpoint in the slightest, other than "hey a black man killed a white cop and we aren't rioting, so why should people riot when a [white] cop kills a black man?!"
Which completely ignores the fact that in one situation a COP is killing someone vs a criminal. Cops don't equate to criminals. This is a false equivalency.
These riots are fucking disgusting. They tear down all the hard work that people who are trying to enact change the right way have done. They reinforce the stereotypes perpetuating these problem. They make educated individuals and people who are trying to open the eyes of those who don't see the problems in this country look like absolute fools. They make people quate protests to riots. They divide us even further. And most importantly, they harm INNOCENT PEOPLE.
This is incredibly fucked up and looting is so opportunistic and wrong.
I don't understand why this happens. It makes me so fucking angry. Are people so stupid to see that this is going to make things worse? Or are they selfish enough that they don't give a fuck, they just want to loot a store and get free shit, even if their actions are a detriment to their movement towards equal treatment by the legal system.
It's always 1 step forward, five steps back. ALWAYS.
nothing will EVER change if people keep selfishly doing stupid shit like this. I understand an angry protest. Violence is inexcusable, but is something that I can see occurring - to a point - when tensions are running high (not saying I support it, just saying that I can see how emotions can escalate to violence).
Looting is fucking baffling. Looting is selfish. Looting are shithead burglars taking advantage of the situation to rob and steal. Fuck these people. Fuck all the people rioting and looting and undoing all the hard work that the honest individuals with truly noble intensions have put forward.
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In comment 12252589 Steve L said:
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Here in Rochester. You don't see us rioting here. The criminal (black) knocked a cop (white) down then took his gun, put it under his chin and executed him. Don't see me in the streets.
These two situations aren't remotely in the same ball park.
All I'm saying is that you don't see people rioting over a cop being executed. Were the cops wrong in Baltimore? Yes. But this guy here murdered a police officer and it's peaceful here.
Just completely missing the point.
Why would people riot over a cop being killed by a criminal (that is tragic by the way, and I hope they throw away the murderer forever)?
That makes no sense. The situations aren't even remotely comparable. A cop killing someone in their custody is totally different than a criminal killing a cop.
What is there to riot against? Rioting against criminals?
Gang members: We did not make truce to harm cops - ( New Window )
This is why I love Greg. LOL!
It's the first intelligence report in human history that appears to be mistaken. I'm aghast!
I don't know whether it was true or not. However, I'm not sure I'd accept the words of the Bloods and Crips as gospel.
Leadership is easy when all the status quo is the norm. Even if the status quo is a shitty situation which has ben the case in Balt for years. But this mayor decided to abdicate all responsibility fior the safety and protection of property to every citizen of her city by trying to play the safe rout. Unacceptable regardless of one's feeling on all the things that led up to this. Sad for the people of that place.
Just the worst.
Link - ( New Window )
I thought that was a great moment, but of course it spun into a debate on abusive parenting. Seriously.
Life in freedom lasts a lot longer than a few years with punk friends.
Later that night...
"I never said, nor would I ever say that we are giving people space to destroy our city, so my words should not be twisted"
Twisted? Maybe you just need to remind yourself what's already come out of your mouth. A public official who says that IMO shouldn't be in that position. There's really only one way to say it: she is a gotdamm fool...
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
Just the worst.
At first I felt that way and now I wonder if the true message with all this stuff is that people are just fed up with the system and these events are merely the sparks that ignite the flames. Clearly this is not about Gray. But that doesn't mean it's not about something that is a problem we should look at.
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I don't know what sparked this, but the original message of protest is completely forgotten while people loot liquor stores and check cashing places.
Just the worst.
At first I felt that way and now I wonder if the true message with all this stuff is that people are just fed up with the system and these events are merely the sparks that ignite the flames. Clearly this is not about Gray. But that doesn't mean it's not about something that is a problem we should look at.
Those truly wanting change are also disgusted by these riots, which is not only taking away from the original intent of the protests but also do almost irreparable damage to the lives of the locals. And many of these looters are opportunities, who couldn't give a shit about Gray or anyone else. They just want free stuffs when opportunities present themselves.
They were talking about that CVS having took years to be built in that area. You know that CVS will never return. And probably no other store will return to that location anytime soon.
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It's pretty much the worst possible thing you can do if you're angry about your environment being shitty, because it's only going to make things worse.
They were talking about that CVS having took years to be built in that area. You know that CVS will never return. And probably no other store will return to that location anytime soon.
And Baltimore isn't Detroit, the proximity to other thriving cities means that capital and the like aren't simply going to pick up and leave, never to return. But it could set a city with a number of big advantages back a decade or two.
Later that night...
"I never said, nor would I ever say that we are giving people space to destroy our city, so my words should not be twisted"
Twisted? Maybe you just need to remind yourself what's already come out of your mouth. A public official who says that IMO shouldn't be in that position. There's really only one way to say it: she is a gotdamm fool...
It was a terrible look for her. I mean, can you extend the benefit of the doubt that she was stressed beyond belief at watching her city be burned down? Sure, but that was a really bad moment caught on TV.
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
Armchair sociological analysis doesn't really address this. Projecting deep societal frustrations onto teenagers says a lot more about you than it does about the folks breaking things and stealing shit.
Situations like this evoke a wide range of emotions. I think my posting history is enough to show that I'm a big believer that police brutality and abuses are a huge problem in this country. I can understand the anger and helplessness that inspires. And being poor is miserable, I get that. There really isn't true poverty on the global scale in this country, but relative poverty in a country possessing incredible wealth is bad enough. I was in some rough financial shape for a while when both my wife and I were out of work, and we had to get some help from WIC and food banks. We weren't even poor by American standards yet and it was a horrible time.
Engaging in self-destructive behavior like rioting and looting makes it very hard to stay particularly sympathetic, though. Making a bad situation worse tends to negate whatever legitimate grievances you may have.
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"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
That's an unfortunate story, and among the many questions it begs the one that jumps out at me is where do you intervene? We can all agree it shouldn't be when that kid gets picked up for dealing, though it probably will be. But is the issue a CPS issue? Is it an issue of Dad's incarceration, if that is the problem? Mom's substance abuse, if that's the issue? Or is it a social issue, that will require a social solution but will likely endure with poorly timed state interventions that solve some problems but exacerbate others?
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explain all of what's going on. You have to feel pretty fucking disenfranchised to burn your community down. And that doesn't happen overnight because some guy you probably didn't even know got killed. That has to happen over a lifetime of feeling oppressed by the circumstances that surround you.
Armchair sociological analysis doesn't really address this. Projecting deep societal frustrations onto teenagers says a lot more about you than it does about the folks breaking things and stealing shit.
Oh, ok. No reason to figure out why this shit keeps happening, I guess. We'll just keep rounding up the looters until it's some other city's turn to burn.
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"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
Excellent post. The first part is very profound.
Regarding the crime, I empathize with those who truly live that struggle. But the vast majoriry of these rioting kids are not living in a situation like the one posted.
The real problem with the system is that those clamoring for these changes in the system, are supported by those that are fucking it up. When presidents, governors and mayors ask for more taxes, they are not putting the money to help fix rhings like education and social work. They blow it and then keep asking for more and the middle class get desensitized to it.
Truly a sad state of affairs.
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In comment 12253974 Metnut said:
Quote:
"We have criminalized the sale of narcotics and though white and black people use narcotics at similar rates, the mechanism by which drugs are trafficked runs through major cities and their criminal element, which, demographically, remain disproportionately black.
We also have set up incentives in these cities such that crime not only seems to pay but seems to be the best option for many people -- those not gifted or resourceful enough to overcome the wasteland of the public education system or the inherent disadvantages of an impoverished upbringing.
The result is a police force constantly frustrated with enacting an impossible policy and a population rightly angered by the toll taken on them by that impossible policy. Pre-existing racial resentments and mistrust fuel the conflict. "
interesting, I'd like to see the whole piece.
Think about this scenario, which I assure you is 100% true and was witnessed by my own eyes. So you're a 12 yr old boy. You have 4 younger siblings. You haven't seen your mother in days, father in months. There's no food in the house. You do try to do your homework but it's hard to stay focused, what with changing diapers and scrounging food from your neighbors. If you're really lucky maybe you'll get something after your siblings eat. Most days tho, you ain't very lucky.
Then one day on your way to school one of the older kids approach you. "Why you wastin your time in school? Tell you what little man, you sit on this stoop, take money when people give it to you, and signal this other guy on his porch down the street how many vials. You don't even touch the drugs and I'll give you $250 a day.
Now yes, there are one in a thousand like the Pastor Hickman, whose 10 year dream burned to the ground last night, but really, what chance does the average kid in this situation have? Truly take a second to put yourself in that position and ask yourself what you what do.
Sorry to go off on a tangent but that quote reminded me of someone I know whose life was over before they were ever even given a chance.
That's an unfortunate story, and among the many questions it begs the one that jumps out at me is where do you intervene? We can all agree it shouldn't be when that kid gets picked up for dealing, though it probably will be. But is the issue a CPS issue? Is it an issue of Dad's incarceration, if that is the problem? Mom's substance abuse, if that's the issue? Or is it a social issue, that will require a social solution but will likely endure with poorly timed state interventions that solve some problems but exacerbate others?
Sometimes dune it is literally a combination of all of those factors. And where do I intervene? On the block. With the dealers and fiends, pimps and prostitutes. I spent 6 years in the National Guard and never had a gun pointed at me. That's happened 4 times at my job, including once by the police swat team because I matched the description of a shooter in the area.
What I personally do is connect families to resources in the community to help them overcome whatever struggle they may be dealing with, be it mental health, drug abuse, getting an education, etc. But in truth that's what we "try" to do. By the time people reach us it's usually too late and we're just another agent of a system that has failed them for a lifetime. I have what I'd call 2 true success stories in my years as a social worker. Over a dozen clients have died, I've been around for two of those-discovered a young man after an OD and arrived at another's house where he had just OD'd, just happened to visit that day and ended up doing CPR on someone for the first (and hopefully only) time ever.
Situations like this evoke a wide range of emotions. I think my posting history is enough to show that I'm a big believer that police brutality and abuses are a huge problem in this country. I can understand the anger and helplessness that inspires. And being poor is miserable, I get that. There really isn't true poverty on the global scale in this country, but relative poverty in a country possessing incredible wealth is bad enough. I was in some rough financial shape for a while when both my wife and I were out of work, and we had to get some help from WIC and food banks. We weren't even poor by American standards yet and it was a horrible time.
Engaging in self-destructive behavior like rioting and looting makes it very hard to stay particularly sympathetic, though. Making a bad situation worse tends to negate whatever legitimate grievances you may have.
Also well said.
Freddy Gray wasn't even the first person killed by them.
Link - ( New Window )
They don't want any trouble... - ( New Window )
When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse.
The people now calling for nonviolence are not prepared to answer these questions. Many of them are charged with enforcing the very policies that led to Gray's death, and yet they can offer no rational justification for Gray's death and so they appeal for calm. But there was no official appeal for calm when Gray was being arrested. There was no appeal for calm when Jerriel Lyles was assaulted. (“The blow was so heavy. My eyes swelled up. Blood was dripping down my nose and out my eye.”) There was no claim for nonviolence on behalf of Venus Green. (“Bitch, you ain’t no better than any of the other old black bitches I have locked up.”) There was no plea for peace on behalf of Starr Brown. (“They slammed me down on my face,” Brown added, her voice cracking. “The skin was gone on my face.")
When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is "correct" or "wise," any more than a forest fire can be "correct" or "wise." Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community.
Link - ( New Window )
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For some, such injuries have been inflicted by what is known as a "rough ride" — an "unsanctioned technique" in which police vans are driven to cause "injury or pain" to unbuckled, handcuffed detainees, former city police officer Charles J. Key testified as an expert five years ago in a lawsuit over Johnson's subsequent death.
Freddy Gray wasn't even the first person killed by them. Link - ( New Window )
I have a lot of friends in Baltimore and spend a lot of time there, have even considered moving there. Anyway, one night 2 summers ago a convertible with 4 young black guys was cruising around. This was on Lombard near the Harbor. They were hooting and hollering, the guys in the back seat were occasionally propping themselves up and sitting on the top of the back seat near the trunk. They were being goofy and having fun. I guess you could argue that the driver was distracted, but it didn't warrant the response that came. BPD pulled them over, two cops got out, and proceeded to pull both guys out of the back seat and lay into them. The light changed and we drove on, but I was positive I would be seeing it on the news the next day but I never heard anything about it. Most of my friends live in gentrifying neighborhoods in East or near Druid Hill Park and they'll tell you straight up: I'm more afraid of the cops than I am the drug dealers".
Reads like brownstain authored that piece.