Why not take a flier on La'El...

In comment 12271648 NoPeanutz said:

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What's that? You don't want to work in a cube next to someone who might have murdered a couple of people, or with known connections to murderers?

Save the flair for dramatics here, we are talking football players, not cube monkeys, very different culture then I am sure you and I are accustomed ...


All I was saying here, if indeed his name is cleared, we will miss out on a guy that was regarded top 15 in this years draft, and would be a great addition to a position of need ...

There is a reason why all teams passed. Not one team was even willing to use a 7th round compensatory pick. It had nothing to do whether he would sign.

There are teams speaking to him now, but I doubt any team will sign him until the police make a public statement that he has been cleared and is not a suspect. Maybe a team will take a chance if the paternity test comes back negative, but I don't think it will be NYG.

Flowers filled the area of need, and was one of their top two targets.

really needs to happen first.

In comment 12271691 JonC said:

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Flowers filled the area of need, and was one of their top two targets.

It would be nice to have a guy of La'El's ability in your pocket. Don't be so quick to anoint the line set, Schwartz is a huge question mark, he still can not run, and even when healthy may we be the weak link this year ...

but I'm relaying what the regime will likely say.

you are rooting for the wrong team. The Giants don't operate the way you want them too. Collins would be a nice insurance policy in a perfect world, but it isn't a perfect world and their could be massive repercussions if things go south in his personal life. We aren't signing up for that risk, and most of the league probably won't either.

If we miss out on him if he turns out to be innocent, so be it, so will everyone else except for 1 team. Those are how things fall sometimes.

I would imagine the Nfl had private detectives who could talk to the investigating authorities and find the "skinny".

If he was totally clean, I think someone would have ventured a late round pick...I realize it's not the same crime as Ray and Gregories, but they were guilty, if he was innocent that would have gotten back and he goes like them...Or so it seems to me.

In comment 12271633 Curtis in VA said:

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In comment 12271622 JonC said: Quote: you just don't know if he's not another Hernandez yet. Thats true, but even without Hernandez and with all the distractions is arrest caused, the team didn't miss a beat really. They just won the Super Bowl a year later. Can't really argue with not bringing him in, I totally get it. Concerns are definitely valid, and the Giants are a team that usually errs on the side of caution - which is something we all appreciate about them. I know they won't do it. I just want that line to dominate. =)

As soon as Hernandez was arrested, NE cut bait and severed all ties with him. That was necessary and significant and served as a moving on point for the franchise. Sure, many were watching and probably rooting for AH to be cleared, but the team GTFO, they wanted to be as far from the guy as possible.

La'el is not going to sign for peanuts. So you will be making an investment in a player that might be one press conference from becoming the target of a homicide investigation. This means you are occupying resources that might be better spent elsewhere, knowing full well the situation could blow up in your face at any moment.

1) No one is using a high pick to take someone with possible murders forthcoming.

2) No one took him late in the draft because if they had, Collins could have passed on signing a low contract and entered the 2016 draft (and "yes", if a player is drafted and doesn't sign, he can be in the next years draft). Thus the drafting team just wasted a pick and punched his ticket into the 2016 draft.

In both cases, the drafting team is in a very bad spot. Why would a team do that?

In comment 12271606 Victor in CT said:

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If Collins is clean I'd be all over it. Somebody is going to get sued in a big way if he turns out to be clean. But that's a big if.

I am curious, because I have little experience with law suits or the legal system, who exactly would he sue over this?

am almost certain there is a team or teams with terms in place just needing a signature on the dotted line the moment his name is cleared ... I am also certain La'El will have his choice as where he goes ...

In comment 12271775 JohnB said:

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1) No one is using a high pick to take someone with possible murders forthcoming. 2) No one took him late in the draft because if they had, Collins could have passed on signing a low contract and entered the 2016 draft (and "yes", if a player is drafted and doesn't sign, he can be in the next years draft). Thus the drafting team just wasted a pick and punched his ticket into the 2016 draft. In both cases, the drafting team is in a very bad spot. Why would a team do that?

He was dumb to say he wouldn't sign. The way it turned out prevents him from entering next years draft. Who is advising this kid?

Best case for him now is to go to Canada and come back and allow the bidding next year. If he signs now he is subject to the rookie wage scale. If he plays in Canada, he would be like any street FA next year. Sure he will be locked in, to the same ERFA, then RFA rules of any new player, but at least his signing bonus and salary will be limited by the salary cap and not the rookie scale. Unless of course I am understanding the FA rules incorrectly.

In comment 12271787 Floyd The Barber said:

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am almost certain there is a team or teams with terms in place just needing a signature on the dotted line the moment his name is cleared ... I am also certain La'El will have his choice as where he goes ...

That's great, kid, all you need to do is clear your name first ...

et tu, Brute? How many threads are there on Collins? Eric said it best, that even if Collins was a Giant interest, there really is no room for him. I know Reese is not a BBI fav. but he's too smart to go after this trouble. :)

In comment 12271877 blapre74 said:

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et tu, Brute? How many threads are there on Collins? Eric said it best, that even if Collins was a Giant interest, there really is no room for him. I know Reese is not a BBI fav. but he's too smart to go after this trouble. :)

If Eric said that he is wrong. If Collins is cleared of any involvement, there will be room on the roster for him.

Beatty
Schwartz
Pugh
Richburg
Flowers
Collins
Newhouse/Jones/Reynolds/Jerry/Mosley/Herman/Gettis fighting for the last 2 spots. Definitely space.

...they should to wait until all this is over before extending an offer to him.

I suspect what he meant was where would he play? NYG is loyal (often to a fault), which means Schwartz gets every opportunity to keep his gig (RG, me thinks), as well as Pugh at LG. If things go well, your tackles and center are set.

I think both OGs are upgradeable, but would agree NYG would choose loyalty. Is Collins going to accept a roster spot given the above? I tend to doubt it.

...with the situation and Collins' ability to choose his spot he may not sign here. My only point is there is always a spot on the roster for a young talented OL. Though he may choose to sign here knowing that the LT spot will open soon and the RG spot is not locked down by a young high draft pick or future HOF guard. Even if he won't start as a rookie, he will as a 2nd year player most likely. Having 4 spots on the line locked up with young players in Pugh, Richburg, Flowers and Collins would be a nice situation for the Giants.

Whether the Giants can sign him or not, if he is cleared, they should at least pursue it.

Understood.

In comment 12271758 Reb8thVA said:

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La'el is not going to sign for peanuts. So you will be making an investment in a player that might be one press conference from becoming the target of a homicide investigation. This means you are occupying resources that might be better spent elsewhere, knowing full well the situation could blow up in your face at any moment.

There is a cap on what undrafted free agents can sign for...

The only upside is he is a free agent after 2 years rather than 3...

In comment 12271628 Peter in Atl said:

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it doesn't make any sense on his part to sign with a team now.

The NFL has already said if he is not drafted he can not apply for the NFL draft next year

In comment 12271957 JonC said:

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I suspect what he meant was where would he play? NYG is loyal (often to a fault), which means Schwartz gets every opportunity to keep his gig (RG, me thinks), as well as Pugh at LG. If things go well, your tackles and center are set. I think both OGs are upgradeable, but would agree NYG would choose loyalty. Is Collins going to accept a roster spot given the above? I tend to doubt it.

don't the Giants also like to create competition at spots. just saying..

they do but it's generally to push underperformers (eg, Beatty), not sure if they view their OGs at that point yet. They actually don't do it enough, imv.

an ideal position to be in if you can do it. I know the ole adage you can never have enough corners etc, but stock piling at another position, in this case OL (defensive line would be too imho) can only be beneficial as we all know, esp case with this team lately, injury factor. However, like said...many things in play with Collins...legal issue first and foremost, and his now choice to where to go if cleared. And, Giants thinking as of now where they stand.

Beatty and Pugh were in the middle tier of tackles at their respective positions last year and Beatty's current salary reflects that ranking. So you guys who feel that there are starting spots to be had on this line are going to tell us that La'El can come in and immediately be a clear top 10 tackle on the left side or an upgrade over Pugh and Flowers?

Especially considering the struggles we have seen recent tackle prospects have had adjusting to the NFL? I like the guy too but at the same time, I'm not sure that either him or Flowers will be able to beat out Pugh in training camp if Pugh's regression last year was due to an injured elbow which has healed.

Then that leaves the guard positions, and quite frankly anyone discarding Schwartz as a non-factor is being foolish. So you are likely committing some high price commodity to the bench needlessly for the sake of a minor upgrade. Why would you waste resources like that?

And finally, when do you expect to hear that he is cleared? Seriously, this isn't a freaking Law and Order episode. The lack of clear suspects probably works against him as the cops have to keep open the possibility that he had something to do with it by using a proxy.

Sometimes when it comes to draft discussions on BBI, I keep thinking that there should be a "oh look, new shiny thing!" gif below some people's post.

if he clears his name, let the bidding wars begin.



There's no rush for him to sign or a team to sign him. no one is getting a discount for signing him this week vs two weeks, or a month from now. It's a mutual interest for the dust to settle.

how is Beatty an underperformer? He's a middle tier left tackle who wasn't a high first round draft pick. At the 60th pick in the second round, he was just a few slots away from being a third round selection. So how is he an under-performer?

He is an inconsistent player, thus an underperformer. They've been trying to get him to improve his consistency, and perform at a higher level.

...because if you look past this season, there is a need for more young OL. The Giants have zero depth. Who is their no.1 bench player? Jerry? Beatty may not be signed to another contract. Schwartz to date has had exactly one good season as a starter. So even if one or Beatty or Schwartz work out long term, there is one spot open. That is of course assuming that Pugh continues to improve, Richburg becomes a quality starter in the middle and Flowers becomes what the Giants expect (which is far from a sure thing).

So what you are saying is the Giants should bank on all 5 players working out for the long term? Based on your experience following this sport, would you say that is likely?

In comment 12271990 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 12271628 Peter in Atl said: Quote: it doesn't make any sense on his part to sign with a team now. The NFL has already said if he is not drafted he can not apply for the NFL draft next year

That doesn't matter. My point is why sign with just anyone today when more opportunities will arise after being cleared? Since you're going to get the same contract from any team, why not wait until a good one comes calling?

Today, he's a beggar. After he's cleared, he's a chooser.

player outside of the top superstars? He had one bad year, others on the Giants have had bad years and it didn't label them. Beatty is being scapegoated in my mind. His successful transition into a starting left tackle that didn't cost the team a high draft choice will allow Beatty and Flowers to develop into possible left tackles candidates without risking Eli to their growing pain hiccups.

Pure and simple, to replace Beatty in my opinion, should be a serious top ten left tackle candidate. Is Flowers or La'El at that level right now? Then how is either man, pushing "the underperforming" Beatty?

I think you're confusing a few things, some of which I'm not part of.

They're talking up Flowers as having LT abilities, and he is a top 10 talent. Given that, given Beatty's age and ok playing career, it's not a stretch to suggest they view Flowers as being his successor in the relative near future. 2016? It remains to be seen, but Beatty is now playing for his job year to year and it will be expected that Flowers will push him at some point. A good thing for NYG. In the meantime, first step is for EF to win the RT gig and for Beatty to continue to improve at his craft.

Like you said, Beatty was the #60 pick of his draft, and he's a serviceable LT. It shouldn't require only a top 10 talent to unseat him, logically, no?

I think La'el is an OG in the NFL, he's overrated by many here, imo. I can almost hear the regime say how similar he is to Pugh, in their view.

In comment 12272079 Hades07 said:

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...because if you look past this season, there is a need for more young OL. The Giants have zero depth. Who is their no.1 bench player?

Here's the thing. Most teams have limited offensive line depth especially considering the fact that you don't rotate offensive lineman like you do other positions like cornerbacks and defensive ends. If someone isn't a starter then they are going to sit and only get on the field for special teams until their is an injury.

In the salary cap era with limited resources, team deal with their offensive line depth situation by developing mid and late round picks or signing experience veterans stopgaps. John Jerry fits into the stopgap category just like K. Booth did. The Giants also brought in Newhouse to be the swing tackle if others don't beat him out in training camp. The Giants still have some of their recent mid to late round draft picks (Mosley and Herman) who will get a chance to show that they can be depended on.

I just don't see La'El doing us the favor of being that super important backup guy that everyone is happy with. It doesn't match the reality of today's NFL and it isn't in his best interests

In comment 12272081 Peter in Atl said:

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In comment 12271990 nygiants16 said: Quote: In comment 12271628 Peter in Atl said: Quote: it doesn't make any sense on his part to sign with a team now. The NFL has already said if he is not drafted he can not apply for the NFL draft next year That doesn't matter. My point is why sign with just anyone today when more opportunities will arise after being cleared? Since you're going to get the same contract from any team, why not wait until a good one comes calling? Today, he's a beggar. After he's cleared, he's a chooser.

Ahh ok got ya, i thought you meant he can wait until next year, my bad

I do tend to agree with you on those points.

In comment 12272112 JonC said:

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Like you said, Beatty was the #60 pick of his draft, and he's a serviceable LT. It shouldn't require only a top 10 talent to unseat him, logically, no?

Actually, yes it should. By second tier, I'm saying that Beatty is outside the top ten. But his recent rankings on some of the football analytics sites show that he wasn't that far outside the top ten. I'm not talking about the 20th or 25th best LT but rather the PFF 11th and 14th ranked (Going off memory here some I could be off a bit) in 2012 and 2014. That's why I feel that Beatty is not a Just Another Guy or jag type which is the impression I get reading BBI.

I hear what you're saying, but Flowers is likely going to be viewed by the regime as I indicated, and that is the LT of the future. The expectations are very high for EF inside NYG Central.

In comment 12272122 Semipro Lineman said:

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In comment 12272079 Hades07 said: Quote: ...because if you look past this season, there is a need for more young OL. The Giants have zero depth. Who is their no.1 bench player? Here's the thing. Most teams have limited offensive line depth especially considering the fact that you don't rotate offensive lineman like you do other positions like cornerbacks and defensive ends. If someone isn't a starter then they are going to sit and only get on the field for special teams until their is an injury. In the salary cap era with limited resources, team deal with their offensive line depth situation by developing mid and late round picks or signing experience veterans stopgaps. John Jerry fits into the stopgap category just like K. Booth did. The Giants also brought in Newhouse to be the swing tackle if others don't beat him out in training camp. The Giants still have some of their recent mid to late round draft picks (Mosley and Herman) who will get a chance to show that they can be depended on. I just don't see La'El doing us the favor of being that super important backup guy that everyone is happy with. It doesn't match the reality of today's NFL and it isn't in his best interests

if they sign him this off season, the amount they can pay him is capped. So the salary cap does not factor for 2 seasons and then he is an ERFA. So still cheap. Whether he is "just a guard" or not, you have a young talented cost controlled player. The reality of the NFL is you get as many of those as possible. The only time the cap factors into it as a problem is after he has proven himself to be a high quality starter. Again I fail to see the problem with that.

aren't going unnoticed by Beatty. They may not be a shot across the bow, but they're not meaningless either, imv.

Your view is pro-team and not inaccurate, but SL's view would likely be that of La'el himself, and pro-player. Dude should want to play not sit. Playing means a chance to recoup lost dollars.

Even he admitted he needed to leave NJ.

Le'al Collins may have had similar problems in his background. Maybe he needs to get away from his problems too, but is NYC the place to do that?

He is probably attracted to New Orleans, Miami, NYC when he really should be looking at Green Bay, Minneapolis, Kansas City.

...I'd probably look for a team with an open spot if I were him too. But that wasn't the point he was arguing, he spoke of limited resources for the team. Reality is, if he is cleared of all wrongdoing in this legal case, there is no downside for any team to sign him this off-season as an UDFA.

I am just curious as to how things change if he doesn't sign an NFL contract and plays 2015 in Canada. Do the rules change for how much they can sign him for? I don't think he would still factor into the rookie wage pool or UDFA cap. So he may be able to sign for much more money next off-season. But I don't know exactly how that works.

OvertheCap.com, La'El and all undrafted rookie free agents are locked into the same contract. The other difference would be bonus amount. Each team is allotted $88K bonus pool to use among all it's UDFA so that amount is limited. The work around appears to be for a team to guarantee portions of that contract which is something normal UDFA's do not get.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 12272183 Hades07 said:

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...I'd probably look for a team with an open spot if I were him too. But that wasn't the point he was arguing, he spoke of limited resources for the team. Reality is, if he is cleared of all wrongdoing in this legal case, there is no downside for any team to sign him this off-season as an UDFA.

I disagree. Besides the distraction his signing provides, offensive line play depends on much on unit cohesion as it does individual talent. To get the most out of the unit, a stead consistent lineup needs to be decided on early. Bringing in La'El as a heir apparent to about to leave player is one thing, bringing him in to have "open" competition when you already have a young set lineup is another. You will either be wasting La'El potential to develop by sitting him behind someone or you will have wasted the resources you have already spent to get the guy you are replacing him with.

How you can look at dormer teammate Odell Beckham & see how fast he blew up & not want to play for NY. The guy went from the 12th pick in the draft to finalist for Madden cover, NFL ambassador in London. I know Oline isn't exactly the same thing, but a great Olineman for the Giants is going to bring in a lot more endorsements then a great OL for the Bills or a team like that.

In comment 12272221 Semipro Lineman said:

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In comment 12272183 Hades07 said: Quote: ...I'd probably look for a team with an open spot if I were him too. But that wasn't the point he was arguing, he spoke of limited resources for the team. Reality is, if he is cleared of all wrongdoing in this legal case, there is no downside for any team to sign him this off-season as an UDFA. I disagree. Besides the distraction his signing provides, offensive line play depends on much on unit cohesion as it does individual talent. To get the most out of the unit, a stead consistent lineup needs to be decided on early. Bringing in La'El as a heir apparent to about to leave player is one thing, bringing him in to have "open" competition when you already have a young set lineup is another. You will either be wasting La'El potential to develop by sitting him behind someone or you will have wasted the resources you have already spent to get the guy you are replacing him with.

It's professional sports. #1, competition is good. #2, somebody is always about to leave.

surprised if Schwartz turns into anything more than a back-up. More likely he retires sometime during camp.

In comment 12272201 Semipro Lineman said:

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OvertheCap.com, La'El and all undrafted rookie free agents are locked into the same contract. The other difference would be bonus amount. Each team is allotted $88K bonus pool to use among all it's UDFA so that amount is limited. The work around appears to be for a team to guarantee portions of that contract which is something normal UDFA's do not get. Link - ( New Window )

I posted this in another thread. People are having trouble grasping it as evidenced by this thread.