But where would he play? I don't know if I see him beating out Pugh or Schwartz. And they're not going to sit Schwartz while they're paying him the kind of money they are.
imagine Beckham is why we're "in the mix." Coming to a team with a former teammate could be a way of stabilizing a very chaotic experience. But I still think he ends up elsewhere. As others have said, there really is no place for him. He needs to go to a team where he can start.
it would be wise for him to get into a good situation rather than just look for playing time. If he is comfortable with ODB, coughlin might be the best coach for him for his development.
With Schwartz injury history and Beatty probably only here for another year he might see playing time this year with the chance to go into camp as the starter the following year.
This is all assuming the giants have did there background check and he is clear of any charges.
But where would he play? I don't know if I see him beating out Pugh or Schwartz. And they're not going to sit Schwartz while they're paying him the kind of money they are.
exactly! And Collins' agent will recognize other teams have more of a need for a starting guard than the Gmen. :)
imagine Beckham is why we're "in the mix." Coming to a team with a former teammate could be a way of stabilizing a very chaotic experience. But I still think he ends up elsewhere. As others have said, there really is no place for him. He needs to go to a team where he can start.
I disagree, he needs to go to a situation with a coaching staff that can help him regain his image. Everyone knows he can play...that is not in question.
He needs to go to a stable situation where he can rebuild his image off the field. That should be goal #1 at least if I were him. He can play the game, no one is questioning that.
imagine Beckham is why we're "in the mix." Coming to a team with a former teammate could be a way of stabilizing a very chaotic experience. But I still think he ends up elsewhere. As others have said, there really is no place for him. He needs to go to a team where he can start.
but, he hasn't spoken to the police, and I'm just guessing he's got some part in this.
that there is no "spot" for La'El is absurd ... did we not all witness the overall line play for the past 3-4 seasons ? revolving doors at each vital hole ... ill tell you this, a healthy Schwartz is not that impressive ... don't believe me ? go back to his KC days, watch game film, I challenge you ...
You pick this La'El up, and even if he doesn't play right away, by mid season, he'd be in the lineup somewhere, may it be G or T ... And, if you look beyond 2015, you say goodbye to Beatty, and you are looking at Collins / Richburg / Flowers and some young core nucleolus in the trench ...
But where would he play? I don't know if I see him beating out Pugh or Schwartz. And they're not going to sit Schwartz while they're paying him the kind of money they are.
If Collins is better than Schwartz, why wouldnt they play him a sit Schwartz?
Someone pointed out in another thread that Schwartz is no lock health wise. Since 2011 he has dressed for 0, 13, 16 and 2 games. And only started 9. And he looked like shit in preseason last year but I'll give him the benefit of the Giants stupidly playing him at LG instead of RG on that one.
If he's clean it would be a coup for the Giants. Flowers AND Collins, and Collins coming CHEAP.
I don't understand those saying there is no place for him.
Schwartz is a complete unknown imo I don't see how you can pencil him in as a starter. Flowers may not be ready this year. So I can see a case in the short term where there is another place for an OL.
Long term the only projected tackles are Flowers and maybe Beatty or Pugh but the latter two guys appear to have pretty low ceiling for the position.
Why wouldn't make a strong push for him? Is it really that much of a worst case scenario if he's a murderer and they cut him? It makes a headline on the back page if the NY post big deal
would even be an instant upgrade over Pugh at OT? If Flowers isn't an immediate upgrade at RT, but Collins is an immediate (and significant) upgrade at LG, they could always start the year with Beatty-Collins-Richburg-Schwartz-Pugh with Flowers backing up both OT spots.
Long way to go before etching in the game 1 starters.
which brings me back to a point I had made very long ago, Schwartz at full health is a B player, you want to talk Tiers or Lines as our GM puts it, he is not a Top Tier Player, he's your "Swing Guy" everyone loves to throw the term around ...
nothing is wrong with his image ... an ex-gf got killed he had nothing to do with it .... How is his image tarnished to the point he needs to make proactive strides to fix it?
just stupid to say there is no room for La'el hypothetically ... BC this line has been horrible for a while, you bring all these guys in, and let the best 5 emerge, but you would have to feel pretty darn good having 3 of them under the age of 23 and all highly regarded ...
Collins if he has a choice may not want to come here. His path to a starting job my be blocked. Although I suppose TC and co. could make it clear that the best guy will play. That he can earn his way. It is not like our o line is loaded with talent
That said if the Giants have a salary number they are comfortable with regarding the cap, I say bring him on board.
What would be the downside? In theory it would be having two first round caliber talents for the O line. WHat would be wrong with that?
If we don't make a go at him on the account of an "ok" starter like Schwartz, I'm going to be disappointed.
he's not "ok", go back to his KC film and watch, I am not sure what this FO was thinking when they were pulling out the check book, probably a move of desperation at that point, but now we are dealing from a position of power if you rope in La'El ...
"In this case, the Giants are likely doing their due diligence. As general manager Jerry Reese likes to say, they keep all options open when it comes to personnel. There is always a chance. What this really means is that the Giants haven't completely ruled out the possibility of signing Collins, who they view as a guard after playing tackle in college."
There's a huge difference between no completely ruling out a possibility and being "in the mix."
While I wouldn't disagree, good luck convincing the coaches otherwise.
JonC, do the coaches feel strongly about Schwartz?
I feel TC tends to start guys he trusts more over less experiences. Schwartz is a unique case where his cap number is high but I feel he hasn't shown much to prove he deserves a starting spot.
I said coming here makes little sense for Collins. I still stand by that.
I disagree.
We agree that our Oline isn't set.
Perhaps Collins needs less limelight (if cleared) and him easing onto the roster isn't a bad thing. We'll try to work extra dough into his SB (I guess) but there's isn't much wiggle room there either so he won't make much money so again there's no rush to get him on the field.
He's friends with OBJ which might be attractive to him.
Could happen and it might be a good fit, you negative Nancy!
While I wouldn't disagree, good luck convincing the coaches otherwise.
JonC, do the coaches feel strongly about Schwartz?
I feel TC tends to start guys he trusts more over less experiences. Schwartz is a unique case where his cap number is high but I feel he hasn't shown much to prove he deserves a starting spot.
The coaches, the regime, are very loyal. Loyal to a fault, at times. They value veteran experience unless the younger player leaves them no other choice.
While I wouldn't disagree, good luck convincing the coaches otherwise.
JonC, do the coaches feel strongly about Schwartz?
I feel TC tends to start guys he trusts more over less experiences. Schwartz is a unique case where his cap number is high but I feel he hasn't shown much to prove he deserves a starting spot.
I think a lot of TC's conventional wisdom is road side in 2015 bc he has been mandated on making a post season push ... there is no reason to assume any player on that line is locked, maybe other than the C, which we haven't even seen him take an NFL snap either ...
We've not signed many UDFA's so we could probably offer a very decent bonus. By decent I mean comparatively, as last year each teams UDFA signing bonus pool was capped at around $88,000 teams with 10 or so UDFA's will have pretty much used that up.
Aside from the bonus, he'd be locked into a fixed 3 year deal. The three year contract will contain the minimum Paragraph 5 salary in each year, which will equal payouts of $435,000 in 2015, $525,000 in 2016, and $615,000 in 2017 which is roughly equivalent to a 3rd round rookie believe it or not.
Of course he could probably make more by signing in a state without state income tax.
In terms of the actual opening on the team, that would work itself out.
certainly fits with the theme we've been hearing from Coughlin and Reese all off-season ..."COMPETITION"!!!
And winning the LOS again. And getting tougher and meaner.
Agreed! Coughlin's introductory press conference was filled with platitudes such as, we have to get back to Giants football, we have to dominate the line of scrimmage, we have to be physical, we have to win in the trenches and run the ball and on and on. Any chance to "upgrade", which is another term TC and Reese have been using an awful lot of, it has to be pursued.
But I don't see how Collins can be compared to Pugh coming out of college. Imo, Collins is the better prospect coming out and it's really not close. I also feel Collins would be a better guard than Pugh and would give Beatty a run for his money at left tackle as well. If the NYG sign him I would be incredibly happy and our oline would be set for years.
Really dude? Do you not think the fact that he knows ODB might be appealing?
Or did you just come to bitch? Sign him. Let the chips fall. This would be huge.
You think OBJ is the only other person to play at LSU or with him on a NFL roster? Does that even make sense to you? Don't most teams in the NFL have at least one player from LSU on their roster? Does that mean the Bengals are in the mix too?
...if Collins is cleared of any wrongdoing in this legal case, there is no downside for the Giants to sign him. That could also be said for the other 31 teams. What criteria Collins will use in picking which team to sign with, I won't presume to know.
...if Collins is cleared of any wrongdoing in this legal case, there is no downside for the Giants to sign him. That could also be said for the other 31 teams. What criteria Collins will use in picking which team to sign with, I won't presume to know.
And that's the point, all 32 teams would be "in the mix". The column was purely speculative that OBJ was a factor.
But not having anywhere to play is a very, very temporary issue. You know someone is going to get hurt during the season and he would get plenty of PT then. Not to mention a spot would be his next season, giving him some time this year to deal with things and adjust if he needs to. The question is how much PT he wants immediately and I assume he'll go to the team that needs him the most right now.
Collins if he has a choice may not want to come here. His path to a starting job my be blocked. Although I suppose TC and co. could make it clear that the best guy will play. That he can earn his way. It is not like our o line is loaded with talent
That said if the Giants have a salary number they are comfortable with regarding the cap, I say bring him on board.
What would be the downside? In theory it would be having two first round caliber talents for the O line. WHat would be wrong with that?
Collins is likely getting the same contract no matter where he signs. The only variables are:
- how much of the base salaries are guaranteed - if he's cleared, some team(s) will likely guarantee it all (~$500k per year for 3 years)
- how much does he get as a signing bonus - max would theoretically be ~$80k if there's a team that hasn't given any of it's allotment to other UDFAs
So at this point it really comes down to which team is going to maximize his value over the next 3 seasons so that he can get a big payday when he hits FA.
While the Giants don't have an obvious hole for him to plug in 2015 (assuming Flowers starts Day 1), they do have 2 guys getting older that will likely be replaced in 2016/2017.
There's also the old adage about OL being "the sum is greater than the parts". You think Zach Martin would've looked as good joining the Atlanta line last year? Or did stepping into an already strong OL help him settle in more quickly and make it easier to cover up any mistakes he made? So battling for a starting spot this year and then stepping into a starting role in a (hopefully) strong, young OL (Pugh, Richburg, Flowers) could be enticing to him.
By today's standards, he and Beatty are undersized. We are now focusing on bringing in big bodied, push the pile, O Lineman. Schwartz was the first piece, Flowers & Hart next, and now possibly La'el. During the NY Giants MSG Draft Show, Reese said that the 5 best O Lineman would play. Collins is the best out of our whole lot, including Beatty, Pugh, and Flowers.
with bringing Collins in from the Giants side. Even though it looks like we have enough talent on the OL right now, there are still several question marks.
Can Beatty put back to back healthy/good years together?
Can Schwartz stay healthy for 16 games? And if he does, how good is he?
Can Flowers start from Day 1?
Is Pugh going to be as good of a player at Guard as everyone here seems to think, given that hes had little/no experience there?
There is also a good chance that Collins is just flat out BETTER than at least one of the 4 guys playing at Tackle or Guard. The ball is really in his court as to whether he would want a chance to start right away.
By today's standards, he and Beatty are undersized. We are now focusing on bringing in big bodied, push the pile, O Lineman. Schwartz was the first piece, Flowers & Hart next, and now possibly La'el. During the NY Giants MSG Draft Show, Reese said that the 5 best O Lineman would play. Collins is the best out of our whole lot, including Beatty, Pugh, and Flowers.
Just because he's undersized does not mean he can't be effective. He was certainly effective when he was healthy as a rookie.
Evan Mathis is an all-pro level talent at no more than 299 pounds.
Guard might be a position where Pugh becomes an impact player.
By today's standards, he and Beatty are undersized. We are now focusing on bringing in big bodied, push the pile, O Lineman. Schwartz was the first piece, Flowers & Hart next, and now possibly La'el. During the NY Giants MSG Draft Show, Reese said that the 5 best O Lineman would play. Collins is the best out of our whole lot, including Beatty, Pugh, and Flowers.
Not sure how some of you don't see what Eric is saying here.
Sure he might be able to come in here and win a starting spot after a long training camp and preseason battle. There is a chance. A chance. This team is one without any guarantee for him.
But there are some terrible offensive lines out there who are damn desperate and in need of any swinging dick to come in and be handed a spot. His agent will know this.
If his pay is going to be the same and shitty no matter where he ends up, why not go somewhere that doesn't even have a starter quality guard?
...if Collins is cleared of any wrongdoing in this legal case, there is no downside for the Giants to sign him. That could also be said for the other 31 teams. What criteria Collins will use in picking which team to sign with, I won't presume to know.
And that's the point, all 32 teams would be "in the mix". The column was purely speculative that OBJ was a factor.
Mason, I believe you are misinterpreting my point. Many have said "there is no place for him", or "It doesn't make sense for him to sign here"; both are complete nonsense. There is obviously a place for him on the roster, whether it is a starting spot or not is up to his performance in camp. Stating that it doesn't make sense for him to sign here is presuming to know his priorities and goals.
So, #1 is false and #2 is not known by those on this website.
The article was not in my thinking when I posted, which looked like a lot of words with little information to me.
By today's standards, he and Beatty are undersized. We are now focusing on bringing in big bodied, push the pile, O Lineman. Schwartz was the first piece, Flowers & Hart next, and now possibly La'el. During the NY Giants MSG Draft Show, Reese said that the 5 best O Lineman would play. Collins is the best out of our whole lot, including Beatty, Pugh, and Flowers.
Just because he's undersized does not mean he can't be effective. He was certainly effective when he was healthy as a rookie.
Evan Mathis is an all-pro level talent at no more than 299 pounds.
Guard might be a position where Pugh becomes an impact player.
Pugh had an off sophomore year bc he was playing next to a guy he wasn't even supposed to be on the field ... for those who understand the game and have played, you would realize this ... Jerry was awful
our draft/ufa class would be amazing...3 first round talents and a second round talent...we would go from the dumpiest O-line to top 5 in the league...eli threw 30 tds with a terd line last year, he can get close to 40 with actually time and a running game...do it!
"where would he play?" stuff is really crazy to me. This kid was considered as good a prospect as Scherff and Flowers by some. If those 2 could start for the Giants, why wouldn't Collins be able to?
Because TC is going to tell him to come win a spot.
The
DanMetroMan : 3:49 pm : link : reply
"where would he play?" stuff is really crazy to me. This kid was considered as good a prospect as Scherff and Flowers by some. If those 2 could start for the Giants, why wouldn't Collins be able to?
There may be other teams out there that hand it to him.
...no need for depth or thoughts for the future because nobody ever gets hurt or under-performs or leave through FA or get cut to save cap. Everything stays exactly as it is right now.
SOMEONE tell me why this isnt an easy decision? Its not like the contract would be huge and you potentially land a first round talent...to me its like getting TWO first round OL for price of one...get this shit done!!
You could be talking about
Beatty Pugh Richburg Schwartz Flowers with Collins as depth at G and T...its not like we have guys who are rocks and never miss any time!
To my its a no brainer. thoughts?
RE: Because TC is going to tell him to come win a spot.
The
DanMetroMan : 3:49 pm : link : reply
"where would he play?" stuff is really crazy to me. This kid was considered as good a prospect as Scherff and Flowers by some. If those 2 could start for the Giants, why wouldn't Collins be able to?
There may be other teams out there that hand it to him.
Do you know that this is what he is looking for? He wants to be handed a starting spot as his top priority?
My only point is with the article and the very misleading headline
I clicked and thought oh boy, he met with the Giants or something on the lines of there is real evidence of interest between both parties. Not some unnamed source stating the obvious about how the Giants would like to have him on the team if his situation clears up. I don't consider that being in the mix of anything.
seeing that he just got shit out of millions of dollars (assuming found innocent), he is going to want to get on the field as soon as possible to work on his contract #2 as he has no choice but to take an extremely low UDFA contract right now. A lot harder to do that when you ride a bench.
The more top picks we can through in the competition the better the
OL will be. Put Pugh, Flowers, Beatty, Schwartz, and Collins out there and 4 will win. The other one will be a great backup. The depth and quality we would have is a huge upgrade.
As I said repeatedly on the Bills/Dolphins Collins thread...
...the number of snaps Collins gets in 2015 will have very little impact on his long-term financial outcome. He will be stuck working for peanuts in 2016 and 2017 no matter what happens this year. He can make a couple of hundred thousand from the performance-based pool if he starts. Otherwise, playing time really won't matter until at least 2016.
What matters in the near term is whether he earns an accrued season of NFL service. That's how he can advance him toward the big payday a few years down the road.
Pugh isn't close in talent level to Collins nor Flowers.
If we sign Collins, he'll start somewhere on our OL. Whether or not we sign Collins, do you see us running behind Justin Pugh on 3rd and 1? Sorry I don't. In that respect Pugh is limited. Maybe he can become an effective G, but Collins is the better player between the 2, hands down.
Really dude? Do you not think the fact that he knows ODB might be appealing?
Or did you just come to bitch? Sign him. Let the chips fall. This would be huge.
You think OBJ is the only other person to play at LSU or with him on a NFL roster? Does that even make sense to you? Don't most teams in the NFL have at least one player from LSU on their roster? Does that mean the Bengals are in the mix too?
I always like to believe the Giants are an appealing team to play for. Good history and a team that's respects work ethic, not just production. I'm not the person who made the original statement but I do know the OL is still a question mark. Who knows?
He would be good for the Giants, especially next year
...funny that seems incredibly short sighted to me.
I'd go to an organization that is well respected for how it treats its players. Seeing as it will be 3 seasons before I am looking at a payday, I am looking for a OL that will be strong around me to make me look better in that last year. Maybe back up an learn for a season and not put my body on the line more than necessary because I just lost 3 early years of earning potential and I want my career as long as possible. All kinds of things to think about, but since the money will be the same today, it doesn't matter whether a starting job is there today. It matters right before the first contract ends and what position I will be in.
I'm not claiming NY is the best spot for him, but to sit here and claim you know what his priorities are is foolish. To say that his priorities should be where he can get a starting spot as a rookie is incredibly short sighted.
RE: As I said repeatedly on the Bills/Dolphins Collins thread...
...the number of snaps Collins gets in 2015 will have very little impact on his long-term financial outcome. He will be stuck working for peanuts in 2016 and 2017 no matter what happens this year. He can make a couple of hundred thousand from the performance-based pool if he starts. Otherwise, playing time really won't matter until at least 2016.
What matters in the near term is whether he earns an accrued season of NFL service. That's how he can advance him toward the big payday a few years down the road.
Exactly
RE: Not sure how some of you don't see what Eric is saying here.
Sure he might be able to come in here and win a starting spot after a long training camp and preseason battle. There is a chance. A chance. This team is one without any guarantee for him.
But there are some terrible offensive lines out there who are damn desperate and in need of any swinging dick to come in and be handed a spot. His agent will know this.
If his pay is going to be the same and shitty no matter where he ends up, why not go somewhere that doesn't even have a starter quality guard?
While I agree that he likely ends up on a team with a shitty OL, being surrounded by poor OL play could make him look worse.
This seems like a fluff piece by Raananand a matter of
saying the right things to look like you're doing your due diligence by Reese. I'd wager long odds on his coming to the Giants, although I'd love for it to happen.
Meanwhile, bringing Collins a board provides not only necessary depth but a likely a young starter for 2016 as both Beatty and Schwartz's cap numbers wouldn't result in a huge hit.
I hope they go for LC and while I think Schwartz deserves a 2nd shot
He is not an asset I'd hang onto if the opportunity arose to get a 1st round talent. He was a somewhat boom or bust pickup, in a weak FA crop, who proceeded to add 2 more serious injuries to a career list that's far more lengthy than his on the field accomplishments. They can cut him or June 1 cut him to make the cap work if necessary. He has the capacity to be an above average player and he seems like a good guy so I'm certainly not cutting him for no reason, but if LC is interested coming here and it's a factor I'd do it. This entire scenario is weird, but if LC did sign here I would possibly want to cut JS anyway (or at least ask him to take a big paycut). It's like in national signing day in college, when a 5 star guy commits to Bama they push out someone else at the bottom of the roster.
Meanwhile, bringing Collins a board provides not only necessary depth but a likely a young starter for 2016 as both Beatty and Schwartz's cap numbers wouldn't result in a huge hit.
He's not speculating. He has a source.
I always thought Pugh was too slight to play guard
Meanwhile, bringing Collins a board provides not only necessary depth but a likely a young starter for 2016 as both Beatty and Schwartz's cap numbers wouldn't result in a huge hit.
Meanwhile, bringing Collins a board provides not only necessary depth but a likely a young starter for 2016 as both Beatty and Schwartz's cap numbers wouldn't result in a huge hit.
He's not speculating. He has a source.
yeah right, and pigs fly.
So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
Meanwhile, bringing Collins a board provides not only necessary depth but a likely a young starter for 2016 as both Beatty and Schwartz's cap numbers wouldn't result in a huge hit.
He's not speculating. He has a source.
yeah right, and pigs fly.
So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
imagine Beckham is why we're "in the mix." Coming to a team with a former teammate could be a way of stabilizing a very chaotic experience. But I still think he ends up elsewhere. As others have said, there really is no place for him. He needs to go to a team where he can start.
I disagree, he needs to go to a situation with a coaching staff that can help him regain his image. Everyone knows he can play...that is not in question.
He needs to go to a stable situation where he can rebuild his image off the field. That should be goal #1 at least if I were him. He can play the game, no one is questioning that.
If he did nothing wrong other then having an ex-GF who was murdered, what image exactly does he need to rebuild?
I sound like a negative nellie here, but Collins' agent will want to find his client some team where the coach can guarantee him a starting job. Coughlin can't do that.
I sound like a negative nellie here, but Collins' agent will want to find his client some team where the coach can guarantee him a starting job. Coughlin can't do that.
or at least have a very good chance of winning a starting job.
As Carl Banks said, the days of scholarships on the OLine need to be long over, this unit needs an overhaul and is getting it, the reason for the Giants to bring him in is simple, he competes for a job, like everyone else, the reason for him to sign here is he gets a chance to compete for a job, just like any other team can offer. The fact that we are the Giants and located in new York on one of the best franchises to play is a huge reason to sign here. It makes complete sense both ways. I can not understand anyone thinking otherwise, the arguments I have read are weak at best. He can play both guard and tackle, he would not be pigeon holed into any position, if he is one of the two best tackles on the team, and one of the 5 best OLinemen on the team, he would play, simple as that. You can guess who wins the jobs, but there are no guarantees, there is nobody worthy of that on this unit. Beatty included when you look at his salary and level of play he is no lock by any stretch of the imagination.
A starting job, the most endorsement opportunities of any team in the league, a player that he considers a big Brother (From his own mouth) & playing for a franchise that has won 4 Super Bowls + has a 2 time SB MVP at Quarterback.
So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
Yeah Chris, my source says he's lying. See how easy that is? Don't be so nave when the media preaches sources and comes up short 9.5 out of 10 times.
Oh really ... You think my boss asks me who said that quote and I just make up an answer? Sounds like career suicide. I have a wife and daughter to support. Don't think that sounds prudent.
seem to go where the jazz is. There are Tigers on Miami and elsewhere so OBJ is just another one. Like I said, best to hope he doesn't sign within the division. I'm suppressing my hopes.
So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
Yeah Chris, my source says he's lying. See how easy that is? Don't be so nave when the media preaches sources and comes up short 9.5 out of 10 times.
Oh really ... You think my boss asks me who said that quote and I just make up an answer? Sounds like career suicide. I have a wife and daughter to support. Don't think that sounds prudent.
under a win-a-spot challenge from TC, and does, wouldn't the Giants and TCs reputations enhance his chances of get his life back to normal? Likewise, again with their reputations, wouldn't signing with the Giants and sitting hide him from exposure by sitting with NYFG vs with Boys, Raider, Bengals, or starting elsewhere?
would apply to all 32 teams, because techinically any team is in the mix? Or does 'the Giants are in the mix' imply that they are actively looking into signing him.
But where would he play? I don't know if I see him beating out Pugh or Schwartz. And they're not going to sit Schwartz while they're paying him the kind of money they are.
He should have a better chance than Flowers to beat out pugh. He is a nasty physical player like Flowers, but his technique is better. I mean his feet. I don't know jack about O-line play, but it only takes seconds to see on tape that Flowers initial step is like nothing I have seen before, and it seems to be obviously a bad thing. Now, our GMEN had him for a workout, so I assume he took to there coaching and they were encuraged that they can correct his technical issues.... There is a lot to like about him, I don't want to insult. The guy is like a jumbo sized heat seeking missle, strapped to a flying bus, wrapped in bacon. Reese called our 5th rnd FS calm in space. I would say the same about Flowers. He finds the crashing defenders, and he doesn't let the feints and twists fool him. In the second level he generally finds a man to block, and then obliterates him. I just like Collins' chances of succeeding in pass block situations better.
Wants to play LT. I don't see it (signing) happening but anything is possible.
As long as we are talking about long shots....
He has to be aware of Beatty's contract situation. Why wouldn't he want (as others have said) a chance without pressure to learn for a few games and have the self confidence to start @ LT by year end or even in 2016. (Even without injuries, having one extra starter can't be bad. Can't have too many DEs, oops, OLs.)
The agent for Collins, Deryk Gilmore, was notifying teams today as to what teams are "in the mix" and which are not.
Its unknown how many are "in", but I can't imagine Jordan writing an article, unless the Giants were still in the mix.
Every team will offer a 3 year contract, so the length of the contract is not a deciding factor
Every team will have a similar maximum dollar amount that they can offer in the base contract. Each teams 3 year contract will be for $1,575,000 ($435,000 in 2015, $525,000 in 2016, and $615,000 in 2017). The question here is "How much of the $1,575,000 will be guaranteed. The more that is guaranteed, the more likely of Collins interest. It would not surprise me if the winning bidder guarantees the entire amount.
Every team can offer TOTAL UDFA signing bonuses of $86,957. The Giants won't announce their UDFA signings before this Thursday, but we are hearing 4 or 5 players. I am speculating here, but perhaps the Giants could offer about $65,000, though I have no idea how much has been committed so far. Any of the 50-60 tryout players signed after the 3 day Giants tryout, will be happy to get an NFL contract and will not get a signing bonus.
Playing time could be crucial in Collins decision. UDFA players share in a year end pool of dollars called Performance Based Pay. UDFAs are not expected to get much playing time, but those that have, and have played a lot, have seen checks in excess of $350,000 in the first year.
Just wanted to clarify a few points relating to the Collins decision based on dollars.
that kind of contract is peanuts. We should guarantee the entire amount with the stipulation that he is not convicted of any involvement in the murder.
Opportunity to win a starting job. Playing with a guy who he called his Big Brother & whose family (Odell) was helping him decide whether or not to go Pro. (La'El told me that after an LSU Bowl game. We have an organization with a lot of connections to LSU & a lot of former players say it is the best organization in football. It has a background known for winning with a 2 time SB MVP & coach. He also saw from that same big Brother what a good year could do for a player in NY when it comes to making $$ off the field.
This sounds more like conjecture than anything else
1. His very strong relationship with Odell Beckham. Collins had many teammates at LSU, but he and Beckham were (are) extremely close
2. Lunda Wells. Lunda was at LSU when Collins was recruited, and was coaching the offensive line as an assistant for Collins first 18 months in college. I don't know of the strength of their relationship, but it can't hurt for Collins to be signing with the NFL team that currently has his old coach now coaching our O-Line
3. Guy Mistretta- successful high school players always keep in touch with their old high school coaches, and there is some legend to Mistretta, and his Dad who was the coach at Redemptorist before Guy. If you want to know a guy who is known statewide and closely follows Louisiana high school football, its Archie Manning. Manning and Mistretta (who is on his 2nd HS team after leaving Redemptorist after Collins graduated) know each other. I am certain that Archie had some very minor influence (can't say how much) in the drafting of Odell last year. I would almost bet that Archie and Mistretta have talked about the Collins situation over the past 10 days.
Perhaps I am being an optimist, but though we are reading about Rex and the Dolphin players trying to do what they can openly, I can't believe the Giants aren't doing the same, though much more under the radar.
Here's a news flash just in case you weren't watching in 2012, 2013 and 2014....we've had a very poor to mediocre at best O-Line. Therefore, NOBODY on this roster should even be penciled in as a starter. This is a GREAT opportunity for someone in Collins' current position.
We were 6-10 and 7-9 the past two seasons. If we had
jump for joy if we signed him, but I just can't see it from Collins' perspective.
You really can't see how signing with the Giants could be a good situation for Collins?
I can't say if it is the best situation for him because I don't know what other teams are looking at, but playing time in 2015 would be low on my priority list for the kid if I was advising him. I'd want him healthy and prepared for 2016 and 2017. I'd want him on a team that will have strong players around him in 2016 and 2017. That will maximize his value going for his next contract. What he did in 2015 won't matter going into the 2018 season. On top of that, I want him in a good organization.
This kid will get pretty much the same money no matter which team he goes to over the next 3 seasons. He can basically choose his spot. With all the information out there on teams and most of you think his number one priority should be guaranteed playing time in 2015? I certainly hope he has better people advising him than that.
Now, seeing what a bunch of idiotic keystone cops have been advising him thus far, you may be right and that is what they advise him. Doesn't make it good advice.
What is all this talk about guaranteeing a rookie a spot
Absolutely. I think fans underestimate those very elements : trust in the player that he demonstrates he knows his assignments, and will execute them with as few mistakes as possible. That's why Moore doesn't play as much as we'd like, same with Washington, and insert player here.
My take is that if Collins comes here he's going to play
So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
Yeah Chris, my source says he's lying. See how easy that is? Don't be so nave when the media preaches sources and comes up short 9.5 out of 10 times.
I'd like to see you support your claims of him coming up wrong 9.5 out of ten. Its probably the least you can do if you're going to try to undermine a man's professional credibility and therefore livelihood.
RE: My take is that if Collins comes here he's going to play
So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
Yeah Chris, my source says he's lying. See how easy that is? Don't be so nave when the media preaches sources and comes up short 9.5 out of 10 times.
I'd like to see you support your claims of him coming up wrong 9.5 out of ten. Its probably the least you can do if you're going to try to undermine a man's professional credibility and therefore livelihood.
radar - is this a little man love here -- defending a man's professional credibility and livelihood -- I'm gonna remind you of this -- I promise I will --- LoL
This is one of the most exciting draft developments ever but.....
Until this murder is solved, the kid can't be signed. It makes no difference if he can prove he didn't pull the trigger. Until the actual murderer is caught, the Rae Carruth, murder for hire scenario looms. Now if they do catch someone, and he is cleared, I would be on cloud nine if we could get this guy. I can't believe the post about no place for him. No place! Pugh stinks. I would cut him right now in exchange if we needed to, but we don't. Beatty stinks too. In fact, most of the holdovers are average to stink. We get this guy, we are in business. Big time.
The police could make it a point of clearing him if they have evidence to support that. For that matter if someone else would be arrested and charged it would likely more than satisfy an NFL team I don't think any team would need to wait until the crime is solved.
Plus I would expect any team to include some type of clause in a contract protecting themselves to some extent.
I don't see why playing for the Giants would not be viewed as an
oppurtunity that is hard to pass on for a young talented offensive lineman. The Giants are rebuilding their O-line and to get in at this point would be great for his career. There will be jobs up for grabs and Collins probably considers himself better than Flowers just for starters.
nonsense is Eric's fault. Yes, Eric. Our offensive line is set and we don't need any upgrades!
Agree..was this team set in dB's a year ago...no..injuries made that unit scarce. Need assume you are set..if you can get talent in here at reasonable doings...do it all the time
There have got to be teams who will tell the kid he's a lock to get significant PT this year. No doubt there are coaches who will promise him an OT job rather than G and a starting gig rather than spot duty. Giants cannot offer believable promises on any of that.
On top of that, he's born and raised and went to college in Baton Rouge LA pop. < 250k. I don't see him deliberately choosing to freeze his ass off all winter in the NYC metro area.
I think as long as the Ex-girlfriend who was murdered
( may she rest in peace ) was not pregnant there should be someway to clear him quick. That is assuming he did not do it. An assumption the police will not make.
teams have to wait any longer.
yesterday (may 4) collins and his atty met w/BRPD for an hour. when they left his atty told reporters they answered all questions and expected to have his name cleared. later that day BRPD released a statement saying collins was *still* not considered a suspect in the ongoing investigation
Police have never called Collins a suspect, but rather a person of interest who could potentially help investigators shine some light on Mills past and his relationship with her. After the two sides met on Monday, the BRPD released the following statement: "Collins fully cooperated with investigators and is still not considered a suspect in the homicide."
**a note: a UDFA contract allows the player to become eligible for an extension at the end of their 2nd season (1 earlier than a draftee). i'd imagine collins' agent is negotiating a handshake deal with whoever signs him that if he's what they think he is the first 2 years, he gets a long term extension at the end of the '16 season.
A bit naive on your part, salary does often play a role in why a player is in there. It shouldn't, but it does.
And, that wasn't the only point I was making, the other was that the veteran does tend to be either the better player or the lesser of two evils.
And I think you are over-thinking it. I think Schwartz would get the 1st crack at it but if a rookie is better (including rookie mistakes) then he will get the job. You think Coughlin et al will risk the season/their jobs to start an inferior player just because of salary? Not happening.
Yes, salary does to some extent factor into who plays. Refer to a TE named Myers who used to play for the Giants if you question that.
Coaches will only bet on upside over errors when they do not have a quality vet to plug in there. So Collins could be better than Schwartz, but Schwartz will still start provided he is getting the job done. Less chance of a mistake killing a drive that way.
Or is this just the typical BBI reading comprehension issue? I didn't read every post, but I haven't seen one person say they wouldn't want him.
Regardless, Eric is right on the money again. There is very little chance of this for the Giants, even if the Giants aren't concerned about the charges. There are better opportunities for him with teams with bigger holes on paper.
Also, the Giants are pretty conservative, where as other teams are more likely to jump in (i.e., Bills, cowboys,..) on a player that has a potential major issue hanging over his head. So, I don't see the Giants moving fast enough on this.
I completely disagree. On paper - our line is still average and unknown. I think we over-inflate the value of our guys b/c we're hopeful. Richburg? Who knows. Pugh? Average so far. Schwartz? Injured and unknown. Collins could come in and easily start at G. If you send Pugh to the bench then so beat it.
So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
Yeah Chris, my source says he's lying. See how easy that is? Don't be so nave when the media preaches sources and comes up short 9.5 out of 10 times.
I'd like to see you support your claims of him coming up wrong 9.5 out of ten. Its probably the least you can do if you're going to try to undermine a man's professional credibility and therefore livelihood.
Wow, dude, it is an indirect swipe at Rannan at best. I think he is speaking in a perscepional manor about journalists in general. It is a common perception about the profession in its modern state (not just the "unimportant stuff" like sports journalism either). The strong, and I thought, heartfelt response from Raanan gives my cold withered heart some comfort, even if I am a closet optimist.
We could use a break. We've got a lot offer. We might not be a favorite, but we should be a team that has a shot especially given Schwartz's injury last year and having to older OL men on the team.
I'm not saying Collins isn't or won't become a better player than what we have. But the Giants are committed to Flowers, Pugh, Richburg in terms of draft picks (no way the Giants sit any of these three); and they are financially committed to Beatty and Schwartz starting in 2015. Plus, you may not like Beatty, but you don't want Flowers starting at LT his rookie season.
So what you guys are suggesting is that Collins has a realistic chance of beating out Pugh at guard or Flowers at right tackle or Schwartz at guard in 2015. I can't see it, and I don't think his agent will see it that way either. I also don't think the Giants want to start two rookies on the OL at the same time either.
Now if Collins is willing to come here, and sit a year, that would be awesome. But I don't see it.
Let's put it this way, can any of you see Tom Coughlin and Pat Flaherty starting rookies at RG and RT, and can you see Schwartz being cut? I can't see it.
outside of reading about a few guys I liked (our first two picks were among them for the first time ever). Can someone explain why he dropped out of the draft completely. At first, from posts here, I thought he killed someone. Then, he wasn't even a suspect. It was something other than the ex-girlfriend's murder, right? What was/is it?
All bonuses and incentives written into a contract count toward the rookie allocation, even if they are never earned.
YANKEE28 hit the one small bit of wiggle room: guaranteed salary. That's how Philly landed Bamiro. It didn't end well for them, but it did enable them to land their guy. With La'el Collins, guaranteed salary probably won't be a trump card. It's more likely the price of a seat at the card table.
I'm not saying Collins isn't or won't become a better player than what we have. But the Giants are committed to Flowers, Pugh, Richburg in terms of draft picks (no way the Giants sit any of these three); and they are financially committed to Beatty and Schwartz starting in 2015. Plus, you may not like Beatty, but you don't want Flowers starting at LT his rookie season.
So what you guys are suggesting is that Collins has a realistic chance of beating out Pugh at guard or Flowers at right tackle or Schwartz at guard in 2015. I can't see it, and I don't think his agent will see it that way either. I also don't think the Giants want to start two rookies on the OL at the same time either.
Now if Collins is willing to come here, and sit a year, that would be awesome. But I don't see it.
Let's put it this way, can any of you see Tom Coughlin and Pat Flaherty starting rookies at RG and RT, and can you see Schwartz being cut? I can't see it.
Pugh never played OG, so with competition, he isn't a lock. Schwartz may not be 100% and is also now another year older. If Collins is as good as advertised, he at least would have to be considered in the mix for th OG spots. If he loses out, he would have a strong shot the next year.
As for LT, I don't think Flowers is even a consideration for LT. But, hypothetically, if he is better than Beatty, then why not play him there now? I never liked moving guys around the line a bunch.
If you think there is even a 1 percent chance that Pugh gets benched, then I don't even know what to say. The Giants are not going to bench Pugh.
The most you could possibly argue is that a Tom Coughlin/Pat Flaherty team cuts Schwartz and starts two rookies on the OL with a 34-year old QB. I don't see it.
...I fully get what you are saying. And you might be right, that is what his advisers are telling him.. But what you are suggesting is very bad advice. Playing time in 2015 should not be Collins' top priority in choosing a team. Performance in 2016 and 2017 and a club's loyalties and treatment of its players should factor higher. An OL that will not turn over many players in that time frame should also be a higher priority, because that will lead to better personal performance for Collins.
I don't expect the Giants to sign him, would be nice if they could, but I cannot agree that playing time in 2015 should factor heavily into the decision.
Why not play Flowers now at left tackle? Because he is a 21-year old rookie with pretty darn bad technique. The last thing you want him to do is blocking for Eli this year.
The Giants have basically come out and said he's there RT this year (Pugh will "love" that) and that Flowers has a chance to be a future LT.
look at opportunity to start relative to other talent as a high priority. he will also consider total compensation (likely similar across the board), culture of the team, location of the team, etc. while the giants appear set on the line, injuries can and do happen and with this team, the injuries tend to be clustered. we also have an injury prone schwartz, richburg playing his first pro season at centre, pugh playing guard for the first time, flowers a rookie also on the line, beatty has had injury issues in the past. it's not like this line is circa 2007-2008, the hogs or the cowboys line of the early 90s...it's not as if his signing will automatically mean he sits for a year.
like his former coach could just be enough. I also think he would have to be considered as a potential starter. I like Pugh, but is anyone really confident that he would be better than COllins at LG, even right out of the gate? Or Schwartz? Or that Schwartz could even stay healthy?
radar - is this a little man love here -- defending a man's professional credibility and livelihood -- I'm gonna remind you of this -- I promise I will --- LoL
Funny thing is, just today he criticized Chris Webber's journalistic integrity and credibility for NOT asserting that LeBron James may have intentionally hurt Jimmy Butler!
thank you for the bonus information on the 2 confirmed Giants UDFA's. I had not seen that reported by Jordan. I become more optimistic about the effort the Giants are making to get Collins when I see those small amounts.
Current Giant OT Emmett Cleary got $20,000 from the Colts when he came out and went undrafted and we gave Kerry Wynn $15,000 last year. Several signings this year by other teams have already been $15,000 bonuses, including WR George Farmer to the Cowboys.
It appears to me the Giants are saving some money here for a reason.
Another thought- About 10 years ago, Michael Strahan started earning substantial dollars being a spokesman for Subway. A year or 2 later, his close friend, Justin Tuck was brought in by Subway to do the same.
Is it possible that a similar marketing opportunity opens with Odell (this kid has to be as hot as it gets as far as marketing opportunites) and also includes Collins? You could even say the same for Eli, who has no shortage of sponsors.
I think the definition of his agents comment of "best situation for his client" can be translated as "where can my client get paid the most". It may well be in the city that never sleeps.
There have got to be teams who will tell the kid he's a lock to get significant PT this year. No doubt there are coaches who will promise him an OT job rather than G and a starting gig rather than spot duty. Giants cannot offer believable promises on any of that.
On top of that, he's born and raised and went to college in Baton Rouge LA pop. < 250k. I don't see him deliberately choosing to freeze his ass off all winter in the NYC metro area.
We've probably got as good a chance as any other team we'd stack up against. For all we know he's always dreamt of living in a big city for a while, and/or the agents may think highly of the Giants as an organization in general and opportunity for Collins in particular.
But I just have to think some other team is going to be a bit more willing to get into the mud than the Giants, who will possibly (and rightfully) be very judicious and only act once ALL doubt has been removed. If that doesn't quite happen immediately but MOST doubt has been removed, that will probably be good enough for several teams, us likely not being among them.
If he clears. Not one of our offensive lineman are set at any one position for sure. With the way our guys get hurt, we can use as much depth as possible. The Giants Oline situation is as good as any for him to be in. Let the best 5 play
endorsement potential for athletes playing in the NY metro area. Collins will not earn more money in NY than in any other market. Since every team will be offering him the same money, the tie breaker will be which team will give him the opportunity to start from day one. The faster he can get on the field the faster he can show case and market his talents for his next contract negotiations in 2 or 3 years (depending on if he starts this year or next). I think if he starts now he might be able to renegotiate his contract in 2 years. The only way I see him coming to the Giants is if he will start.
bring good points.. desire playing time immediately. But, look at Yankees post...I think there might be enough influence to Collins to come here and maybe work it out down the line..giving a bigger picture if he has patience.
Again, if someone is going to tell me that a starting position for Pugh is not set in stone, then we'll have to agree to really disagree.
Signing a cheap first-round talent does not erase the investment the organization has already made in Pugh, and to a certain extent, the pressure of not accepting failure with a first round pick. In other words, you are talking about a team that didn't give up on Ramses Barden, Jerrel Jernigan, Sincorice Moss, etc for years. They certainly are not going to give up on a 1st round draft pick who played very well as a rookie and had an inconsistent (and injury-plagued) sophomore year.
It certainly doesn't need to be a national campaign, the allure it could just be the additional exposure that comes with playing in NY so he can get the biggest contract possible in 3 years. Also probably appearance fees at events (which there are likely more of in NY vs. other places, and that could be something he gets in tandem with Beckham). And I believe I remember seeing Diehl/Ohara on some local commercials a few years back.
All in all I think there's a good reason to suspect the Giants are one of many teams interested, and there's good reason to suspect they get serious consideration. The only mark against them is a relatively full line because as Yankee says LC is going to want PT. If he signed on the dotted line I would be willing to dump Schwartz and bite the bullet on that contract. Fact is he is just not a reliable player due to injury risk.
RE: RE: Sorry for this question. I have been on vacation.
I would be willing to forever forgive Reese/Ross for the drafting of OL's Mitch Petrus, James Brewer, and Matt McCants if Collins is cleared and signs with us.
And Eric Herman is only back after being cut and not grabbed by anyone else and Brandon Mosley could not even beat out Snyder last year-so there is plenty to forgive unless one of these 2 really turns it on this year, since they are still on our roster.
I will remain an optimist, even perhaps an unrealistic one
Winston is trying to recruit Collins to the Bucs. No one is going to touch Collins until has gets cleared. that may take a long time.It appears the police have little to go on.
Crazy thought: utilize the preview button to proofread before hitting submit or just let those typos that don't affect the meaning/tone/purpose of the original post stand. The few-minutes-later correction post does more to interrupt the flow of discussion than it does to add value.
but I would not make that statement about Schwartz. Given equal health, he could give him a run, he's not that great. And he has a history of being injured.
But as Eric & others have pointed out, we've invested too much in terms of premium picks & $ on our OL to think he can come in & compete for a starting gig immediately. And you know his agent & him are looking for a place where that can happen.
Is the most vulnerable guy if we sign Collins, he is 29 has the biggest contract other than Beatty. He has also done the least of any of our present OL players. Even with his contract this year he is not a CAP killer but next year could become one if his performance does not improve. There is still also the trade route to consider straight up performance value draft return.
I know some of you will say why not Beatty it's simple he is the only true ready LT on this team even with the Collins signing for this sason.
someone should've drafted this guy, come on look at the odds of a seventh round pick actually contributing on any NFL team. Just don't sign him until he's cleared or if he isn't cut him. It's so different than any other problem player out ther now that's all ready under your control, I for one don't think a team would lose any fan over him being drafted that low, innocent until proven guilty the last time I looked. I for one hope they get him but wish they drafted him late!
The only thing that makes sense to me is the league issued a mandate to not draft him.
To assume the league told all GMs and Owners not to draft him/sign him until he is fully cleared. With all that went on last few years it makes perfect sense
I have no idea why they didn't use one of their Saturday picks on him
There is no new information that has come out, yet every team passed on the guy for seven rounds and now suddenly everyone is interested? The risk for his going to jail or not signing and losing the pick is not an issue. The way you handle those situations is by weighing the risk against the reward, and clearly there came a point in the draft where the risk of getting nothing in return for your pick was heavily outweighed by the reward of a 1st round talent.
Clearly there was some contribution on the part of doing what is right that factored into the decision making process. But what has changed?
To assume the league told all GMs and Owners not to draft him/sign him until he is fully cleared. With all that went on last few years it makes perfect sense
You would think, but I can't see how that would not raise serious CBA and union issues.
On Sirius put it this way, draft him and don't sign, if he's involved simply cut him. It would be very easy to explain the pick to your fans and let things play out. By all reports coming out of LSU he's a good kid, I know they (reports)can be BS, but it's a seventh round pick. As I said this is so different than what the Pats went through with Hernandez, it would be very easy to distance yourself if he's involved.
I can understand why Collins would want a garauntee about starting, but it creates problems. As pointed out, thats not Coughlin's style. Bad as our OL is, we should offer as much opportunity as anyone, but Coughlin's style may not allow Collin's to see that.
I wish style didn't matter, and that Collins realized the most important factor is where he will be in three years when he hits free agency. In that regard, it also doesn't look good for the Giants if they see him as a guard instead of a tackle.
dreaming of a starting 2015 offensive line that looks like Beatty - Pugh - Richburg - La'El - Flowers ... that's right, Schwartz our prized FA signing few years back MIA ... still nursing his booh booh big toe ... the $4 mill per legend ... can you imagine the ground statistics running to the right side ... you can give Pee Wee Herman the ball and tell him to just run right and he'd be a 2000 yard back ...
look back at Schwartz film in KC you will see a B-/C rated player ... making A rated $$ ... this is your "swing" Olineman, tell him to relax on the far end of the comfy bench, and rest his big toe ... in 2016 you let Beatty hit the bricks, La'El book ending with Flowers is every QB's dream ... Eli will play till he is 45 years old
Perhaps in the past but when John Mara says the o-line needs to be fixed I would think all previous investments don't mean all that much. I hope the Giants don't operate that way at least. That's like saying they're not going to upgrade DE b/c they already invested in Cedric Jones w/ a high first round pick. Granted, I don't think any team can offer Collins a starting position. He needs to earn it in training camp so I think that whole argument doesn't hold much water. He could suck in the pros. I don't know how he could look at the Giants and not see a path towards a starting job. The only position locked down right now is LT. Everything else is up for grabs.
but to me, it's obvious the NFL asked teams not to draft this guy. I'm sure it was off the record, but you can't convince me that one of 32 teams wouldnt take a chance on this kid with a 7th round pick unless they were told not to. The interest he's getting now almost proves that point. Why fight with other teams for him when you could have had him for yourself in the 7th. I'm thinking the NFL suspects that he was involved in the murder. Otherwise they wouldn't put themselves in a risky spot like this. If this kid had nothing to do with the murder, the police and the NFL owe him a huge apology.
If a team drafted him, he could sit out the year, as he'd
threatened to do, and go back into next year's draft. Teams didn't want to waste a pick in order to allow Collins to do that. Now, having gone through a draft, he has no choice but to sign as an UDFA, because sitting out a year gains him nothing...he can't go into next year's draft.
Geoff Schwartz is more interested in humble bragging on Twitter or maintaining his Wikipedia page than playing football anyway. He was tremendous at KC with a +18.6 PFF score, but now that he's getting paid, and the injuries have started, the Giants can't count on him. Once the lower leg and foot injuries set in on big guys like that, there is a high likelihood they're toast.
On Sirius put it this way, draft him and don't sign, if he's involved simply cut him. It would be very easy to explain the pick to your fans and let things play out. By all reports coming out of LSU he's a good kid, I know they (reports)can be BS, but it's a seventh round pick. As I said this is so different than what the Pats went through with Hernandez, it would be very easy to distance yourself if he's involved.
In that situation, as a 7th round pick, he would likely refuse to sign and re-enter the draft next year. The way it played out, because he made it known he would do that, that is no longer an option for him.
Again, if someone is going to tell me that a starting position for Pugh is not set in stone, then we'll have to agree to really disagree.
Signing a cheap first-round talent does not erase the investment the organization has already made in Pugh, and to a certain extent, the pressure of not accepting failure with a first round pick. In other words, you are talking about a team that didn't give up on Ramses Barden, Jerrel Jernigan, Sincorice Moss, etc for years. They certainly are not going to give up on a 1st round draft pick who played very well as a rookie and had an inconsistent (and injury-plagued) sophomore year.
Pugh is one of the safest picks to start forget about him. What about Schwartz?
He's proven nothing since he got here. His cap number could be more due to desperation than anything. Is anyone confident with him penciled as a starter and no depth?
If I'm talking to Collins I'm telling him there's a legit shot to win a G spot or the RT spot. Flowers needing time or Schwartz being benched are two very likely scenarios if they were able to sign him
Idk what Collins' decision making process is but if I'm the giants I make a serious effort to bring this kid in.
to try and bring this kid in. He is not a suspect so you can still claim you are assuming innocent until proven guilty. Obviously if he is arrested and will have a trial coming, you cut him.
In regards to the investments made in other lineman, that can't be a consideration. Those are sunk costs. If you can get a first round talent for peanuts, you don't pass on it because you have Justin Pugh or Geoff Schwartz. Those are not generational talents that can't be put on the bench. It's a great problem to have. If Collins comes in and he outplays either one of them (or even Beatty although I believe they will not put any rookie at LT) then he starts.
The costs invested in Pugh, Schwartz and Beatty are sunk and you can't undo them. That should not handcuff them into making poor decisions going forward.
RE: I think the Giants need to do whatever they can
to try and bring this kid in. He is not a suspect so you can still claim you are assuming innocent until proven guilty. Obviously if he is arrested and will have a trial coming, you cut him.
In regards to the investments made in other lineman, that can't be a consideration. Those are sunk costs. If you can get a first round talent for peanuts, you don't pass on it because you have Justin Pugh or Geoff Schwartz. Those are not generational talents that can't be put on the bench. It's a great problem to have. If Collins comes in and he outplays either one of them (or even Beatty although I believe they will not put any rookie at LT) then he starts.
The costs invested in Pugh, Schwartz and Beatty are sunk and you can't undo them. That should not handcuff them into making poor decisions going forward.
Absolutely. Put the best 5 out there. That would be stupid to start people because of what they're paid.
Strictly speaking, salary was converted to a "games active" incentive, but a pay cut is a pay cut. He is anything but secure, and could easily be a cap casualty in 2016.
whether or not La'El comes here has no bearing on who is currently on our roster ... its a matter of want, wanting him here, FO must do there work ...
How about him wanting to be here? It takes two parties to make a deal, and we aren't his only chance to go to the prom...he's gonna get lots of invites.
whether or not La'El comes here has no bearing on who is currently on our roster ... its a matter of want, wanting him here, FO must do there work ...
How about him wanting to be here? It takes two parties to make a deal, and we aren't his only chance to go to the prom...he's gonna get lots of invites.
you are talking about a 20 year old "man", who would not want to come to the biggest market place in the world ? the lifestyle, the glam, the night life, all these alluring factors come to play ... these "kids" all dream of making it big in NYC ... its more a matte of our FO seizing the opportunity ...
if Collins signs here, he very may well sit a year and start next year for Schwartz and be first off the bench this year in case of injury
but he has a chance other rookies don't. he can pick where he will live. which coach he wants to play for. does he want to play right away or be on a winning team. you will find out quickly what is most important to him at this point in his life.
the giants can offer basically a max signing bonus. the chance to play for a borderline hall of fame coach of impeccable character and for one of the best organizations in the league (which after everything he's been through may be very important to him right now). to play on an up and coming team that is a contender and also play for a former coach of his and play with one of his best friends (OBJ). and he will be in NY (he may or may not like that).
First:
Collins may sit this year and fill in for injured players (there are always injuries, he'll get playing time). Next year, he starts, with either Beatty or Schwartz no longer starting (Beatty out = Flowers to LT, Collins to RT; Schwartz out = Collins to RG).
Second:
The key is the guaranteed money (as always in the NFL). The pay limits and contract length are clearly defined, but the amount guaranteed is discretionary.
And probably the second item is most important. Generally players go to where they find the most guaranteed money. Not always, but it is a sensible expectation.
So, how much are the Giants willing to guarantee?
I would hope the full amount, all three years.
RE: If a team drafted him, he could sit out the year, as he'd
threatened to do, and go back into next year's draft. Teams didn't want to waste a pick in order to allow Collins to do that. Now, having gone through a draft, he has no choice but to sign as an UDFA, because sitting out a year gains him nothing...he can't go into next year's draft.
Pretty sure the NFL came out and said he could not re-enter next year's draft regardless of if he were drafted or not.
2ndround the picture seems to be in conflict with the buzz
because just to have a seat at the table any team interested will guarantee all 3 years and give max signing bonus they have left. Of the teams that meet that minimum, he will pick the spot that is best for him and his future.
The debate here is more about what should be most important to his decision making process.
There are a lot of reasons for the Giants to be an attractive landing spot, there are also a lot of reasons why it isn't.
My opinion is, if the kid is cleared, the Giants should offer the max they can to him and see what he decides in the end.
The Giants had a large contingent at La'el's pro day. Jerry Reese and Lunda Wells were both there. Lunda was one of 2 coaches to put La'el through the OL drills at the pro day. 4 teams were listed as having met with Collins at the pro-day and the Giants were among them.
RE: RE: If a team drafted him, he could sit out the year, as he'd
threatened to do, and go back into next year's draft. Teams didn't want to waste a pick in order to allow Collins to do that. Now, having gone through a draft, he has no choice but to sign as an UDFA, because sitting out a year gains him nothing...he can't go into next year's draft.
Pretty sure the NFL came out and said he could not re-enter next year's draft regardless of if he were drafted or not.
They can't change the rules for him. If a player is drafted and cannot agree to terms with the drafting team, that player can re-enter the next draft. The issue was he was not drafted, so that rule does not apply to him anymore.
spot for him on the offensive line - but injuries will happen, and there's always competition. If La'El truly wants to play right away, then yes, the Giants might not be the best team for him in year 1. But if you're talking about overall organization, stability, winning pedigree, and a chance to develop with a young line, then the Giants have to be right up there.
I'm not optimistic that we sign him, but to completely rule it out would be shortsighted.
RE: RE: If a team drafted him, he could sit out the year, as he'd
threatened to do, and go back into next year's draft. Teams didn't want to waste a pick in order to allow Collins to do that. Now, having gone through a draft, he has no choice but to sign as an UDFA, because sitting out a year gains him nothing...he can't go into next year's draft.
Pretty sure the NFL came out and said he could not re-enter next year's draft regardless of if he were drafted or not.
No, Mooch, if he were drafted he could sit out the year and re-enter the draft next year. Having gone through a draft undrafted, he doesn't have that option.
RE: 2ndround the picture seems to be in conflict with the buzz
threatened to do, and go back into next year's draft. Teams didn't want to waste a pick in order to allow Collins to do that. Now, having gone through a draft, he has no choice but to sign as an UDFA, because sitting out a year gains him nothing...he can't go into next year's draft.
Pretty sure the NFL came out and said he could not re-enter next year's draft regardless of if he were drafted or not.
That's collectively bargained. They can say that but they'd be looking at a law suit.
Let Collins Flowers and Pugh figure out with their play who winds up being the tackles in 2016. Beatty and Schwartz are not guys who will be making anyones all pro team and neither should be some long term answer unless something weird happens. Beatty is a JAG on his best day and will be 31 next year. Schwartz was the best available G last year and Reese had to get someone. He got hurt and needs to play really well or three's zero reason he can be shit canned next years as well for younger better players.
Richberg is the C so Collins can easily work himself in at G or RT kicking Jerry to the bench or even better off the team where he belongs.
that's an indictment on Mosely and Herman, how long do these guys all get to hang around on an nfl roster, earn pay, and contribute nothing on Sundays ?
way better than Pugh just are clueless. Pugh is a damn talented lineman. If they plop Flowers at RT to start I predict he will struggle. Most rookie lineman tackles do, including top overall picks. People pick a game or two (ie first Eagle game last year) and ignore the vast body of work. If the Giants are smart, they'll start Flowers at LG, and move him to Tackle only if necessary.
RE: RE: RE: If a team drafted him, he could sit out the year, as he'd
threatened to do, and go back into next year's draft. Teams didn't want to waste a pick in order to allow Collins to do that. Now, having gone through a draft, he has no choice but to sign as an UDFA, because sitting out a year gains him nothing...he can't go into next year's draft.
Pretty sure the NFL came out and said he could not re-enter next year's draft regardless of if he were drafted or not.
No, Mooch, if he were drafted he could sit out the year and re-enter the draft next year. Having gone through a draft undrafted, he doesn't have that option.
From NFL.com:
Collins' representatives had told clubs that Collins would refuse to sign with a team that drafted him outside the third round and that Collins would simply re-enter the draft in 2016. However, that is not an option according to NFL rules, NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport reported Saturday. Teams were wary of drafting Collins until they know more information. The opinion across football has been relatively simple: Wait until the investigation process runs its course.
but to me, it's obvious the NFL asked teams not to draft this guy. I'm sure it was off the record, but you can't convince me that one of 32 teams wouldnt take a chance on this kid with a 7th round pick unless they were told not to. The interest he's getting now almost proves that point. Why fight with other teams for him when you could have had him for yourself in the 7th. I'm thinking the NFL suspects that he was involved in the murder. Otherwise they wouldn't put themselves in a risky spot like this. If this kid had nothing to do with the murder, the police and the NFL owe him a huge apology.
Not cynical at all, and completely correct. There was obviously an agreement amongst owners, or an edict from the top, to not draft him. Someone definitely would have used a 7th at the very least on him.
One report said that as all this news was breaking, teams were actually sharing info about the kid that they'd gathered about his personal life, friends, blemishes, etc...that's something that never normally happens. It was a group decision to wait and see.
Thanks Hades...I saw that reported as well, and many articles say that. But I also heard it was incorrect, and the NFL.com article I took that excerpt from was more recent than the Florio article. I don't know the legal details, but I know I had heard that the NFL said he couldn't go back in the draft next year regardless of whether he was drafted or not, and that NFL.com article supports it.
This is the article I referenced... NFL.com on Collins - ( New Window )
your article is incorrect. If a player is drafted and cannot agree to terms with the drafting club, he re-enters the draft the next season. If he goes undrafted, he cannot be eligible for the draft again. This rule is in place to prevent what Eli Manning did. Circumvent the draft process and choose where you want to go.
Craig Erikson is an example of a player who was draft eligible twice. Another more famous example is Bo Jackson, not sure why I thought of Erikson first.
With regard to an unsigned draftee's eligibility for the next draft...
...here's the relevant text, from CBA Article 6, Section 4(b):
Quote:
If a Drafted Rookie has not signed a Player Contract during the period from the date of such Draft to the thirtieth day prior to the first game of the regular season: (i) the Club that drafted the player may not thereafter trade to another Club either its exclusive negotiating rights to such player or any Player Contract that it signs with such player for the players initial League Year; and (ii) the Club that drafted the player is the only Club with which the player may sign a Player Contract until the day of the Draft in the subsequent League Year, at which time such player is eligible to be drafted in the subsequent League Years Draft by any Club except the Club that drafted him in the initial Draft.
Clearly, if Collins wanted to enter the 2016 Draft, his agent should not have warned teams not to draft him on Day 3.
As for the Supplemental Draft, that was NEVER possible. Article 6, Section 2(c) defines the eligibility criteria for the supplemental draft:
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(c) If a player who was not eligible for the Draft in any League Year becomes eligible after the date of the Draft, he will be eligible to be selected in a Supplemental Draft, if the League elects to conduct such a Draft, on or before the seventh
calendar day prior to the opening of the first training camp that League Year. No player may elect to bypass a Draft for which he is eligible to apply for selection in a Supplemental Draft.
Geoff Schwartz is more interested in humble bragging on Twitter or maintaining his Wikipedia page than playing football anyway. He was tremendous at KC with a +18.6 PFF score, but now that he's getting paid, and the injuries have started, the Giants can't count on him. Once the lower leg and foot injuries set in on big guys like that, there is a high likelihood they're toast.
You head it right on the head, a worthless signing if there ever was one. I would guarantee Collins the starting LG position, he is a much superior athlete and would be a starter on any team that drafted him. However after saying that a Florida boy isn't going to the Met when he can play half of his games in Florida.
RE: if the league did tell teams not to draft Collins
without any evidence of guilt I see a huge lawsuit against the NFL if I were Collins....
IMO, that lawsuit would never have a prayer- there is no requirement that you be drafted if you are eligible. Look how many UDFA there are- and how many never even get that.
He can't prove he was even going to be drafted- remember how many guides had guys getting picked in the top rounds- who ended up UDFA?
IMO, thrown out by a judge before the ink is even dry on the paper.
Strictly speaking, salary was converted to a "games active" incentive, but a pay cut is a pay cut. He is anything but secure, and could easily be a cap casualty in 2016.
Exactly. Both Beatty and Schwartz could easily become cap casualties in 2016, thus making NYG an optimal destination for La'El if he looks at things from the big picture perspective (e.e., getting an accrued season 2015 working towards Free Agency after three years of service after the 2017 season).
RE: With regard to an unsigned draftee's eligibility for the next draft...
...here's the relevant text, from CBA Article 6, Section 4(b):
Quote:
If a Drafted Rookie has not signed a Player Contract during the period from the date of such Draft to the thirtieth day prior to the first game of the regular season: (i) the Club that drafted the player may not thereafter trade to another Club either its exclusive negotiating rights to such player or any Player Contract that it signs with such player for the players initial League Year; and (ii) the Club that drafted the player is the only Club with which the player may sign a Player Contract until the day of the Draft in the subsequent League Year, at which time such player is eligible to be drafted in the subsequent League Years Draft by any Club except the Club that drafted him in the initial Draft.
Clearly, if Collins wanted to enter the 2016 Draft, his agent should not have warned teams not to draft him on Day 3.
As for the Supplemental Draft, that was NEVER possible. Article 6, Section 2(c) defines the eligibility criteria for the supplemental draft:
Quote:
(c) If a player who was not eligible for the Draft in any League Year becomes eligible after the date of the Draft, he will be eligible to be selected in a Supplemental Draft, if the League elects to conduct such a Draft, on or before the seventh
calendar day prior to the opening of the first training camp that League Year. No player may elect to bypass a Draft for which he is eligible to apply for selection in a Supplemental Draft.
Blogger Andrew Brandt(ex Pacxker cap guy) spoke on this this morning on Sirius. He wanted to be an unrestricted FA TYhe thinking was that he would get more after his 3rd year that way. I forget the intricacies of how he worded it but he was specific. That they wanted him to be an UDFA but would renters the draft if chosen.
RE: RE: With regard to an unsigned draftee's eligibility for the next draft...
Blogger Andrew Brandt(ex Pacxker cap guy) spoke on this this morning on Sirius. He wanted to be an unrestricted FA TYhe thinking was that he would get more after his 3rd year that way. I forget the intricacies of how he worded it but he was specific. That they wanted him to be an UDFA but would renters the draft if chosen.
I understand his frustration but he is coming at this wrong. He now is saying even if given the opportunity of being an UDFA something unlikely, he would still seek to reenter the draft.
without any evidence of guilt I see a huge lawsuit against the NFL if
But where would he play? I don't know if I see him beating out Pugh or Schwartz. And they're not going to sit Schwartz while they're paying him the kind of money they are.
With Schwartz injury history and Beatty probably only here for another year he might see playing time this year with the chance to go into camp as the starter the following year.
This is all assuming the giants have did there background check and he is clear of any charges.
Or step in after the first injury. Not like Beatty and Schwartz are pillars of health.
But where would he play? I don't know if I see him beating out Pugh or Schwartz. And they're not going to sit Schwartz while they're paying him the kind of money they are.
I disagree, he needs to go to a situation with a coaching staff that can help him regain his image. Everyone knows he can play...that is not in question.
He needs to go to a stable situation where he can rebuild his image off the field. That should be goal #1 at least if I were him. He can play the game, no one is questioning that.
You pick this La'El up, and even if he doesn't play right away, by mid season, he'd be in the lineup somewhere, may it be G or T ... And, if you look beyond 2015, you say goodbye to Beatty, and you are looking at Collins / Richburg / Flowers and some young core nucleolus in the trench ...
Eli could play well into his 40's !
But where would he play? I don't know if I see him beating out Pugh or Schwartz. And they're not going to sit Schwartz while they're paying him the kind of money they are.
If Collins is better than Schwartz, why wouldnt they play him a sit Schwartz?
Please happen.
If he's clean it would be a coup for the Giants. Flowers AND Collins, and Collins coming CHEAP.
Long term the only projected tackles are Flowers and maybe Beatty or Pugh but the latter two guys appear to have pretty low ceiling for the position.
Why wouldn't make a strong push for him? Is it really that much of a worst case scenario if he's a murderer and they cut him? It makes a headline on the back page if the NY post big deal
Long way to go before etching in the game 1 starters.
which brings me back to a point I had made very long ago, Schwartz at full health is a B player, you want to talk Tiers or Lines as our GM puts it, he is not a Top Tier Player, he's your "Swing Guy" everyone loves to throw the term around ...
And Flowers hasn't even taken a training camp snap in the NFL yet.
Being able to replace either of them this year or next with a potentially better and for sure cheaper player is an unequivocal positive.
Good insurance for Schwartz,Pugh and maybe even Flowers at RT.
Should one get hurt (Schwartz?) , or under-perform or take longer to develop it would be an amazing insurance policy.
5 top 2 round worthy picks and a big money FA battling it out for 5 spots.
I said coming here makes little sense for Collins. I still stand by that.
And winning the LOS again. And getting tougher and meaner.
That said if the Giants have a salary number they are comfortable with regarding the cap, I say bring him on board.
What would be the downside? In theory it would be having two first round caliber talents for the O line. WHat would be wrong with that?
he's not "ok", go back to his KC film and watch, I am not sure what this FO was thinking when they were pulling out the check book, probably a move of desperation at that point, but now we are dealing from a position of power if you rope in La'El ...
"In this case, the Giants are likely doing their due diligence. As general manager Jerry Reese likes to say, they keep all options open when it comes to personnel. There is always a chance. What this really means is that the Giants haven't completely ruled out the possibility of signing Collins, who they view as a guard after playing tackle in college."
There's a huge difference between no completely ruling out a possibility and being "in the mix."
JonC, do the coaches feel strongly about Schwartz?
I feel TC tends to start guys he trusts more over less experiences. Schwartz is a unique case where his cap number is high but I feel he hasn't shown much to prove he deserves a starting spot.
Really dude? Do you not think the fact that he knows ODB might be appealing?
Or did you just come to bitch? Sign him. Let the chips fall. This would be huge.
I said coming here makes little sense for Collins. I still stand by that.
We agree that our Oline isn't set.
Perhaps Collins needs less limelight (if cleared) and him easing onto the roster isn't a bad thing. We'll try to work extra dough into his SB (I guess) but there's isn't much wiggle room there either so he won't make much money so again there's no rush to get him on the field.
He's friends with OBJ which might be attractive to him.
Could happen and it might be a good fit, you negative Nancy!
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While I wouldn't disagree, good luck convincing the coaches otherwise.
JonC, do the coaches feel strongly about Schwartz?
I feel TC tends to start guys he trusts more over less experiences. Schwartz is a unique case where his cap number is high but I feel he hasn't shown much to prove he deserves a starting spot.
The coaches, the regime, are very loyal. Loyal to a fault, at times. They value veteran experience unless the younger player leaves them no other choice.
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While I wouldn't disagree, good luck convincing the coaches otherwise.
JonC, do the coaches feel strongly about Schwartz?
I feel TC tends to start guys he trusts more over less experiences. Schwartz is a unique case where his cap number is high but I feel he hasn't shown much to prove he deserves a starting spot.
I think a lot of TC's conventional wisdom is road side in 2015 bc he has been mandated on making a post season push ... there is no reason to assume any player on that line is locked, maybe other than the C, which we haven't even seen him take an NFL snap either ...
Aside from the bonus, he'd be locked into a fixed 3 year deal. The three year contract will contain the minimum Paragraph 5 salary in each year, which will equal payouts of $435,000 in 2015, $525,000 in 2016, and $615,000 in 2017 which is roughly equivalent to a 3rd round rookie believe it or not.
Of course he could probably make more by signing in a state without state income tax.
In terms of the actual opening on the team, that would work itself out.
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certainly fits with the theme we've been hearing from Coughlin and Reese all off-season ..."COMPETITION"!!!
And winning the LOS again. And getting tougher and meaner.
Agreed! Coughlin's introductory press conference was filled with platitudes such as, we have to get back to Giants football, we have to dominate the line of scrimmage, we have to be physical, we have to win in the trenches and run the ball and on and on. Any chance to "upgrade", which is another term TC and Reese have been using an awful lot of, it has to be pursued.
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How do you get a column from this revelation?
Really dude? Do you not think the fact that he knows ODB might be appealing?
Or did you just come to bitch? Sign him. Let the chips fall. This would be huge.
You think OBJ is the only other person to play at LSU or with him on a NFL roster? Does that even make sense to you? Don't most teams in the NFL have at least one player from LSU on their roster? Does that mean the Bengals are in the mix too?
And that's the point, all 32 teams would be "in the mix". The column was purely speculative that OBJ was a factor.
That said if the Giants have a salary number they are comfortable with regarding the cap, I say bring him on board.
What would be the downside? In theory it would be having two first round caliber talents for the O line. WHat would be wrong with that?
Collins is likely getting the same contract no matter where he signs. The only variables are:
- how much of the base salaries are guaranteed - if he's cleared, some team(s) will likely guarantee it all (~$500k per year for 3 years)
- how much does he get as a signing bonus - max would theoretically be ~$80k if there's a team that hasn't given any of it's allotment to other UDFAs
So at this point it really comes down to which team is going to maximize his value over the next 3 seasons so that he can get a big payday when he hits FA.
While the Giants don't have an obvious hole for him to plug in 2015 (assuming Flowers starts Day 1), they do have 2 guys getting older that will likely be replaced in 2016/2017.
There's also the old adage about OL being "the sum is greater than the parts". You think Zach Martin would've looked as good joining the Atlanta line last year? Or did stepping into an already strong OL help him settle in more quickly and make it easier to cover up any mistakes he made? So battling for a starting spot this year and then stepping into a starting role in a (hopefully) strong, young OL (Pugh, Richburg, Flowers) could be enticing to him.
Can Beatty put back to back healthy/good years together?
Can Schwartz stay healthy for 16 games? And if he does, how good is he?
Can Flowers start from Day 1?
Is Pugh going to be as good of a player at Guard as everyone here seems to think, given that hes had little/no experience there?
There is also a good chance that Collins is just flat out BETTER than at least one of the 4 guys playing at Tackle or Guard. The ball is really in his court as to whether he would want a chance to start right away.
Just because he's undersized does not mean he can't be effective. He was certainly effective when he was healthy as a rookie.
Evan Mathis is an all-pro level talent at no more than 299 pounds.
Guard might be a position where Pugh becomes an impact player.
But there are some terrible offensive lines out there who are damn desperate and in need of any swinging dick to come in and be handed a spot. His agent will know this.
If his pay is going to be the same and shitty no matter where he ends up, why not go somewhere that doesn't even have a starter quality guard?
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...if Collins is cleared of any wrongdoing in this legal case, there is no downside for the Giants to sign him. That could also be said for the other 31 teams. What criteria Collins will use in picking which team to sign with, I won't presume to know.
And that's the point, all 32 teams would be "in the mix". The column was purely speculative that OBJ was a factor.
So, #1 is false and #2 is not known by those on this website.
The article was not in my thinking when I posted, which looked like a lot of words with little information to me.
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By today's standards, he and Beatty are undersized. We are now focusing on bringing in big bodied, push the pile, O Lineman. Schwartz was the first piece, Flowers & Hart next, and now possibly La'el. During the NY Giants MSG Draft Show, Reese said that the 5 best O Lineman would play. Collins is the best out of our whole lot, including Beatty, Pugh, and Flowers.
Just because he's undersized does not mean he can't be effective. He was certainly effective when he was healthy as a rookie.
Evan Mathis is an all-pro level talent at no more than 299 pounds.
Guard might be a position where Pugh becomes an impact player.
Pugh had an off sophomore year bc he was playing next to a guy he wasn't even supposed to be on the field ... for those who understand the game and have played, you would realize this ... Jerry was awful
DanMetroMan : 3:49 pm : link : reply
"where would he play?" stuff is really crazy to me. This kid was considered as good a prospect as Scherff and Flowers by some. If those 2 could start for the Giants, why wouldn't Collins be able to?
There may be other teams out there that hand it to him.
You could be talking about
Beatty Pugh Richburg Schwartz Flowers with Collins as depth at G and T...its not like we have guys who are rocks and never miss any time!
To my its a no brainer. thoughts?
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The
DanMetroMan : 3:49 pm : link : reply
"where would he play?" stuff is really crazy to me. This kid was considered as good a prospect as Scherff and Flowers by some. If those 2 could start for the Giants, why wouldn't Collins be able to?
There may be other teams out there that hand it to him.
What matters in the near term is whether he earns an accrued season of NFL service. That's how he can advance him toward the big payday a few years down the road.
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In comment 12272443 Mason said:
Quote:
How do you get a column from this revelation?
Really dude? Do you not think the fact that he knows ODB might be appealing?
Or did you just come to bitch? Sign him. Let the chips fall. This would be huge.
You think OBJ is the only other person to play at LSU or with him on a NFL roster? Does that even make sense to you? Don't most teams in the NFL have at least one player from LSU on their roster? Does that mean the Bengals are in the mix too?
I always like to believe the Giants are an appealing team to play for. Good history and a team that's respects work ethic, not just production. I'm not the person who made the original statement but I do know the OL is still a question mark. Who knows?
2016:
LT Flowers
LG Pugh
C Richburg
RG Schwartz
RT Collins
I'd go to an organization that is well respected for how it treats its players. Seeing as it will be 3 seasons before I am looking at a payday, I am looking for a OL that will be strong around me to make me look better in that last year. Maybe back up an learn for a season and not put my body on the line more than necessary because I just lost 3 early years of earning potential and I want my career as long as possible. All kinds of things to think about, but since the money will be the same today, it doesn't matter whether a starting job is there today. It matters right before the first contract ends and what position I will be in.
I'm not claiming NY is the best spot for him, but to sit here and claim you know what his priorities are is foolish. To say that his priorities should be where he can get a starting spot as a rookie is incredibly short sighted.
What matters in the near term is whether he earns an accrued season of NFL service. That's how he can advance him toward the big payday a few years down the road.
But there are some terrible offensive lines out there who are damn desperate and in need of any swinging dick to come in and be handed a spot. His agent will know this.
If his pay is going to be the same and shitty no matter where he ends up, why not go somewhere that doesn't even have a starter quality guard?
While I agree that he likely ends up on a team with a shitty OL, being surrounded by poor OL play could make him look worse.
He's not speculating. He has a source.
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Meanwhile, bringing Collins a board provides not only necessary depth but a likely a young starter for 2016 as both Beatty and Schwartz's cap numbers wouldn't result in a huge hit.
He's not speculating. He has a source.
yeah right, and pigs fly.
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In comment 12272557 Giants2012 said:
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Meanwhile, bringing Collins a board provides not only necessary depth but a likely a young starter for 2016 as both Beatty and Schwartz's cap numbers wouldn't result in a huge hit.
He's not speculating. He has a source.
yeah right, and pigs fly.
So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
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In comment 12272563 chris r said:
Quote:
In comment 12272557 Giants2012 said:
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Meanwhile, bringing Collins a board provides not only necessary depth but a likely a young starter for 2016 as both Beatty and Schwartz's cap numbers wouldn't result in a huge hit.
He's not speculating. He has a source.
yeah right, and pigs fly.
So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
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imagine Beckham is why we're "in the mix." Coming to a team with a former teammate could be a way of stabilizing a very chaotic experience. But I still think he ends up elsewhere. As others have said, there really is no place for him. He needs to go to a team where he can start.
I disagree, he needs to go to a situation with a coaching staff that can help him regain his image. Everyone knows he can play...that is not in question.
He needs to go to a stable situation where he can rebuild his image off the field. That should be goal #1 at least if I were him. He can play the game, no one is questioning that.
If he did nothing wrong other then having an ex-GF who was murdered, what image exactly does he need to rebuild?
Get him in let everyone compete
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So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
Yeah Chris, my source says he's lying. See how easy that is? Don't be so nave when the media preaches sources and comes up short 9.5 out of 10 times.
Could you imagine?
That's a GIANT wall.
or at least have a very good chance of winning a starting job.
If he came this year We'd have our top 7 lineman set and all are top talents.
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In comment 12272572 Giants2012 said:
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So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
Yeah Chris, my source says he's lying. See how easy that is? Don't be so nave when the media preaches sources and comes up short 9.5 out of 10 times.
Oh really ... You think my boss asks me who said that quote and I just make up an answer? Sounds like career suicide. I have a wife and daughter to support. Don't think that sounds prudent.
Thats because they are usually better than the rookie. If not, it makes zero sense to play an inferior player because of salary.
So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
Yeah Chris, my source says he's lying. See how easy that is? Don't be so nave when the media preaches sources and comes up short 9.5 out of 10 times.
Oh really ... You think my boss asks me who said that quote and I just make up an answer? Sounds like career suicide. I have a wife and daughter to support. Don't think that sounds prudent.
Very sensible response.
But where would he play? I don't know if I see him beating out Pugh or Schwartz. And they're not going to sit Schwartz while they're paying him the kind of money they are.
He should have a better chance than Flowers to beat out pugh. He is a nasty physical player like Flowers, but his technique is better. I mean his feet. I don't know jack about O-line play, but it only takes seconds to see on tape that Flowers initial step is like nothing I have seen before, and it seems to be obviously a bad thing. Now, our GMEN had him for a workout, so I assume he took to there coaching and they were encuraged that they can correct his technical issues.... There is a lot to like about him, I don't want to insult. The guy is like a jumbo sized heat seeking missle, strapped to a flying bus, wrapped in bacon. Reese called our 5th rnd FS calm in space. I would say the same about Flowers. He finds the crashing defenders, and he doesn't let the feints and twists fool him. In the second level he generally finds a man to block, and then obliterates him. I just like Collins' chances of succeeding in pass block situations better.
As long as we are talking about long shots....
He has to be aware of Beatty's contract situation. Why wouldn't he want (as others have said) a chance without pressure to learn for a few games and have the self confidence to start @ LT by year end or even in 2016. (Even without injuries, having one extra starter can't be bad. Can't have too many DEs, oops, OLs.)
Its unknown how many are "in", but I can't imagine Jordan writing an article, unless the Giants were still in the mix.
Every team will offer a 3 year contract, so the length of the contract is not a deciding factor
Every team will have a similar maximum dollar amount that they can offer in the base contract. Each teams 3 year contract will be for $1,575,000 ($435,000 in 2015, $525,000 in 2016, and $615,000 in 2017). The question here is "How much of the $1,575,000 will be guaranteed. The more that is guaranteed, the more likely of Collins interest. It would not surprise me if the winning bidder guarantees the entire amount.
Every team can offer TOTAL UDFA signing bonuses of $86,957. The Giants won't announce their UDFA signings before this Thursday, but we are hearing 4 or 5 players. I am speculating here, but perhaps the Giants could offer about $65,000, though I have no idea how much has been committed so far. Any of the 50-60 tryout players signed after the 3 day Giants tryout, will be happy to get an NFL contract and will not get a signing bonus.
Playing time could be crucial in Collins decision. UDFA players share in a year end pool of dollars called Performance Based Pay. UDFAs are not expected to get much playing time, but those that have, and have played a lot, have seen checks in excess of $350,000 in the first year.
Just wanted to clarify a few points relating to the Collins decision based on dollars.
As Yankee said, he's got to play to get more money.
Right now, here is what we know of that $86,957 pie.
TE Matt LaCosse (Illinois) ‐ $5,000 signing bonus + $5,000 base salary guarantee
DE Brad Harrah (Cincinnati) ‐ $5,000 signing bonus
Opportunity to win a starting job. Playing with a guy who he called his Big Brother & whose family (Odell) was helping him decide whether or not to go Pro. (La'El told me that after an LSU Bowl game. We have an organization with a lot of connections to LSU & a lot of former players say it is the best organization in football. It has a background known for winning with a 2 time SB MVP & coach. He also saw from that same big Brother what a good year could do for a player in NY when it comes to making $$ off the field.
1. His very strong relationship with Odell Beckham. Collins had many teammates at LSU, but he and Beckham were (are) extremely close
2. Lunda Wells. Lunda was at LSU when Collins was recruited, and was coaching the offensive line as an assistant for Collins first 18 months in college. I don't know of the strength of their relationship, but it can't hurt for Collins to be signing with the NFL team that currently has his old coach now coaching our O-Line
3. Guy Mistretta- successful high school players always keep in touch with their old high school coaches, and there is some legend to Mistretta, and his Dad who was the coach at Redemptorist before Guy. If you want to know a guy who is known statewide and closely follows Louisiana high school football, its Archie Manning. Manning and Mistretta (who is on his 2nd HS team after leaving Redemptorist after Collins graduated) know each other. I am certain that Archie had some very minor influence (can't say how much) in the drafting of Odell last year. I would almost bet that Archie and Mistretta have talked about the Collins situation over the past 10 days.
Perhaps I am being an optimist, but though we are reading about Rex and the Dolphin players trying to do what they can openly, I can't believe the Giants aren't doing the same, though much more under the radar.
They don't even guarantee any of the first round picks a starting spot when they sign them.
I can't say if it is the best situation for him because I don't know what other teams are looking at, but playing time in 2015 would be low on my priority list for the kid if I was advising him. I'd want him healthy and prepared for 2016 and 2017. I'd want him on a team that will have strong players around him in 2016 and 2017. That will maximize his value going for his next contract. What he did in 2015 won't matter going into the 2018 season. On top of that, I want him in a good organization.
This kid will get pretty much the same money no matter which team he goes to over the next 3 seasons. He can basically choose his spot. With all the information out there on teams and most of you think his number one priority should be guaranteed playing time in 2015? I certainly hope he has better people advising him than that.
Now, seeing what a bunch of idiotic keystone cops have been advising him thus far, you may be right and that is what they advise him. Doesn't make it good advice.
And, that wasn't the only point I was making, the other was that the veteran does tend to be either the better player or the lesser of two evils.
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In comment 12272572 Giants2012 said:
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So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
Yeah Chris, my source says he's lying. See how easy that is? Don't be so nave when the media preaches sources and comes up short 9.5 out of 10 times.
I'd like to see you support your claims of him coming up wrong 9.5 out of ten. Its probably the least you can do if you're going to try to undermine a man's professional credibility and therefore livelihood.
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In comment 12272576 chris r said:
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In comment 12272572 Giants2012 said:
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So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
Yeah Chris, my source says he's lying. See how easy that is? Don't be so nave when the media preaches sources and comes up short 9.5 out of 10 times.
I'd like to see you support your claims of him coming up wrong 9.5 out of ten. Its probably the least you can do if you're going to try to undermine a man's professional credibility and therefore livelihood.
radar - is this a little man love here -- defending a man's professional credibility and livelihood -- I'm gonna remind you of this -- I promise I will --- LoL
Plus I would expect any team to include some type of clause in a contract protecting themselves to some extent.
Agree..was this team set in dB's a year ago...no..injuries made that unit scarce. Need assume you are set..if you can get talent in here at reasonable doings...do it all the time
On top of that, he's born and raised and went to college in Baton Rouge LA pop. < 250k. I don't see him deliberately choosing to freeze his ass off all winter in the NYC metro area.
best 5 start
its competition, If Jerry pulls this off, I take back all the shit I said about him
yesterday (may 4) collins and his atty met w/BRPD for an hour. when they left his atty told reporters they answered all questions and expected to have his name cleared. later that day BRPD released a statement saying collins was *still* not considered a suspect in the ongoing investigation
Police have never called Collins a suspect, but rather a person of interest who could potentially help investigators shine some light on Mills past and his relationship with her. After the two sides met on Monday, the BRPD released the following statement: "Collins fully cooperated with investigators and is still not considered a suspect in the homicide."
**a note: a UDFA contract allows the player to become eligible for an extension at the end of their 2nd season (1 earlier than a draftee). i'd imagine collins' agent is negotiating a handshake deal with whoever signs him that if he's what they think he is the first 2 years, he gets a long term extension at the end of the '16 season.
And, that wasn't the only point I was making, the other was that the veteran does tend to be either the better player or the lesser of two evils.
And I think you are over-thinking it. I think Schwartz would get the 1st crack at it but if a rookie is better (including rookie mistakes) then he will get the job. You think Coughlin et al will risk the season/their jobs to start an inferior player just because of salary? Not happening.
Hades...that is a xompletely different argument. In that scenario the vet is getting the job bc of experience not bc of salary.
Yes, salary does to some extent factor into who plays. Refer to a TE named Myers who used to play for the Giants if you question that.
Coaches will only bet on upside over errors when they do not have a quality vet to plug in there. So Collins could be better than Schwartz, but Schwartz will still start provided he is getting the job done. Less chance of a mistake killing a drive that way.
Regardless, Eric is right on the money again. There is very little chance of this for the Giants, even if the Giants aren't concerned about the charges. There are better opportunities for him with teams with bigger holes on paper.
Also, the Giants are pretty conservative, where as other teams are more likely to jump in (i.e., Bills, cowboys,..) on a player that has a potential major issue hanging over his head. So, I don't see the Giants moving fast enough on this.
Can you imagine!
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In comment 12272576 chris r said:]
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In comment 12272572 Giants2012 said:
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So you're calling him a lair. Do you have any basis for that or is it just libel?
Yeah Chris, my source says he's lying. See how easy that is? Don't be so nave when the media preaches sources and comes up short 9.5 out of 10 times.
I'd like to see you support your claims of him coming up wrong 9.5 out of ten. Its probably the least you can do if you're going to try to undermine a man's professional credibility and therefore livelihood.
Wow, dude, it is an indirect swipe at Rannan at best. I think he is speaking in a perscepional manor about journalists in general. It is a common perception about the profession in its modern state (not just the "unimportant stuff" like sports journalism either). The strong, and I thought, heartfelt response from Raanan gives my cold withered heart some comfort, even if I am a closet optimist.
Who knows...
I'm not saying Collins isn't or won't become a better player than what we have. But the Giants are committed to Flowers, Pugh, Richburg in terms of draft picks (no way the Giants sit any of these three); and they are financially committed to Beatty and Schwartz starting in 2015. Plus, you may not like Beatty, but you don't want Flowers starting at LT his rookie season.
So what you guys are suggesting is that Collins has a realistic chance of beating out Pugh at guard or Flowers at right tackle or Schwartz at guard in 2015. I can't see it, and I don't think his agent will see it that way either. I also don't think the Giants want to start two rookies on the OL at the same time either.
Now if Collins is willing to come here, and sit a year, that would be awesome. But I don't see it.
Let's put it this way, can any of you see Tom Coughlin and Pat Flaherty starting rookies at RG and RT, and can you see Schwartz being cut? I can't see it.
http://www.shreveporttimes.com/story/sports/college/lsu/2015/05/04/lael-collins-suspect-cleared/26887481/
YANKEE28 hit the one small bit of wiggle room: guaranteed salary. That's how Philly landed Bamiro. It didn't end well for them, but it did enable them to land their guy. With La'el Collins, guaranteed salary probably won't be a trump card. It's more likely the price of a seat at the card table.
I'm not saying Collins isn't or won't become a better player than what we have. But the Giants are committed to Flowers, Pugh, Richburg in terms of draft picks (no way the Giants sit any of these three); and they are financially committed to Beatty and Schwartz starting in 2015. Plus, you may not like Beatty, but you don't want Flowers starting at LT his rookie season.
So what you guys are suggesting is that Collins has a realistic chance of beating out Pugh at guard or Flowers at right tackle or Schwartz at guard in 2015. I can't see it, and I don't think his agent will see it that way either. I also don't think the Giants want to start two rookies on the OL at the same time either.
Now if Collins is willing to come here, and sit a year, that would be awesome. But I don't see it.
Let's put it this way, can any of you see Tom Coughlin and Pat Flaherty starting rookies at RG and RT, and can you see Schwartz being cut? I can't see it.
Pugh never played OG, so with competition, he isn't a lock. Schwartz may not be 100% and is also now another year older. If Collins is as good as advertised, he at least would have to be considered in the mix for th OG spots. If he loses out, he would have a strong shot the next year.
As for LT, I don't think Flowers is even a consideration for LT. But, hypothetically, if he is better than Beatty, then why not play him there now? I never liked moving guys around the line a bunch.
The most you could possibly argue is that a Tom Coughlin/Pat Flaherty team cuts Schwartz and starts two rookies on the OL with a 34-year old QB. I don't see it.
I don't expect the Giants to sign him, would be nice if they could, but I cannot agree that playing time in 2015 should factor heavily into the decision.
The Giants have basically come out and said he's there RT this year (Pugh will "love" that) and that Flowers has a chance to be a future LT.
Funny thing is, just today he criticized Chris Webber's journalistic integrity and credibility for NOT asserting that LeBron James may have intentionally hurt Jimmy Butler!
Current Giant OT Emmett Cleary got $20,000 from the Colts when he came out and went undrafted and we gave Kerry Wynn $15,000 last year. Several signings this year by other teams have already been $15,000 bonuses, including WR George Farmer to the Cowboys.
It appears to me the Giants are saving some money here for a reason.
Another thought- About 10 years ago, Michael Strahan started earning substantial dollars being a spokesman for Subway. A year or 2 later, his close friend, Justin Tuck was brought in by Subway to do the same.
Is it possible that a similar marketing opportunity opens with Odell (this kid has to be as hot as it gets as far as marketing opportunites) and also includes Collins? You could even say the same for Eli, who has no shortage of sponsors.
I think the definition of his agents comment of "best situation for his client" can be translated as "where can my client get paid the most". It may well be in the city that never sleeps.
On top of that, he's born and raised and went to college in Baton Rouge LA pop. < 250k. I don't see him deliberately choosing to freeze his ass off all winter in the NYC metro area.
We've probably got as good a chance as any other team we'd stack up against. For all we know he's always dreamt of living in a big city for a while, and/or the agents may think highly of the Giants as an organization in general and opportunity for Collins in particular.
But I just have to think some other team is going to be a bit more willing to get into the mud than the Giants, who will possibly (and rightfully) be very judicious and only act once ALL doubt has been removed. If that doesn't quite happen immediately but MOST doubt has been removed, that will probably be good enough for several teams, us likely not being among them.
I mean, could you imagine both Flowers and Collins blossoming together? Oy!!!
Hard not to get the hopes up a little bit.
Nope not yet..
No see link at 9:06 which gives an update on investigation.
Signing a cheap first-round talent does not erase the investment the organization has already made in Pugh, and to a certain extent, the pressure of not accepting failure with a first round pick. In other words, you are talking about a team that didn't give up on Ramses Barden, Jerrel Jernigan, Sincorice Moss, etc for years. They certainly are not going to give up on a 1st round draft pick who played very well as a rookie and had an inconsistent (and injury-plagued) sophomore year.
All in all I think there's a good reason to suspect the Giants are one of many teams interested, and there's good reason to suspect they get serious consideration. The only mark against them is a relatively full line because as Yankee says LC is going to want PT. If he signed on the dotted line I would be willing to dump Schwartz and bite the bullet on that contract. Fact is he is just not a reliable player due to injury risk.
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Has this dude been cleared of any and all wrongdoing??
Nope not yet..
And he's never been considered a suspect either. So, you know, there's that.
Thanks for the perfect answer to my question.
And Eric Herman is only back after being cut and not grabbed by anyone else and Brandon Mosley could not even beat out Snyder last year-so there is plenty to forgive unless one of these 2 really turns it on this year, since they are still on our roster.
I will remain an optimist, even perhaps an unrealistic one
Crazy thought: utilize the preview button to proofread before hitting submit or just let those typos that don't affect the meaning/tone/purpose of the original post stand. The few-minutes-later correction post does more to interrupt the flow of discussion than it does to add value.
Measure twice, cut once? Proof twice, submit once.
They don't, move on.
They don't, move on.
The fact that all teams passed on him should tell you it's not as simple as that.
I know some of you will say why not Beatty it's simple he is the only true ready LT on this team even with the Collins signing for this sason.
The only thing that makes sense to me is the league issued a mandate to not draft him.
It's about the MEL's black eye and headlines about murder and abuse on the evening news.
No team will risk that IMO. Collins must overcome all suspicion before any team will associate itself with his name.
Clearly there was some contribution on the part of doing what is right that factored into the decision making process. But what has changed?
You would think, but I can't see how that would not raise serious CBA and union issues.
I wish style didn't matter, and that Collins realized the most important factor is where he will be in three years when he hits free agency. In that regard, it also doesn't look good for the Giants if they see him as a guard instead of a tackle.
Signing a cheap first-round talent does not erase the investment the organization has already made in Pugh, and to a certain extent, the pressure of not accepting failure with a first round pick. In other words, you are talking about a team that didn't give up on Ramses Barden, Jerrel Jernigan, Sincorice Moss, etc for years. They certainly are not going to give up on a 1st round draft pick who played very well as a rookie and had an inconsistent (and injury-plagued) sophomore year.
Pugh is one of the safest picks to start forget about him. What about Schwartz?
He's proven nothing since he got here. His cap number could be more due to desperation than anything. Is anyone confident with him penciled as a starter and no depth?
If I'm talking to Collins I'm telling him there's a legit shot to win a G spot or the RT spot. Flowers needing time or Schwartz being benched are two very likely scenarios if they were able to sign him
Idk what Collins' decision making process is but if I'm the giants I make a serious effort to bring this kid in.
In regards to the investments made in other lineman, that can't be a consideration. Those are sunk costs. If you can get a first round talent for peanuts, you don't pass on it because you have Justin Pugh or Geoff Schwartz. Those are not generational talents that can't be put on the bench. It's a great problem to have. If Collins comes in and he outplays either one of them (or even Beatty although I believe they will not put any rookie at LT) then he starts.
The costs invested in Pugh, Schwartz and Beatty are sunk and you can't undo them. That should not handcuff them into making poor decisions going forward.
In regards to the investments made in other lineman, that can't be a consideration. Those are sunk costs. If you can get a first round talent for peanuts, you don't pass on it because you have Justin Pugh or Geoff Schwartz. Those are not generational talents that can't be put on the bench. It's a great problem to have. If Collins comes in and he outplays either one of them (or even Beatty although I believe they will not put any rookie at LT) then he starts.
The costs invested in Pugh, Schwartz and Beatty are sunk and you can't undo them. That should not handcuff them into making poor decisions going forward.
Absolutely. Put the best 5 out there. That would be stupid to start people because of what they're paid.
Did the NFL ban him from being drafted?
How about him wanting to be here? It takes two parties to make a deal, and we aren't his only chance to go to the prom...he's gonna get lots of invites.
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whether or not La'El comes here has no bearing on who is currently on our roster ... its a matter of want, wanting him here, FO must do there work ...
How about him wanting to be here? It takes two parties to make a deal, and we aren't his only chance to go to the prom...he's gonna get lots of invites.
you are talking about a 20 year old "man", who would not want to come to the biggest market place in the world ? the lifestyle, the glam, the night life, all these alluring factors come to play ... these "kids" all dream of making it big in NYC ... its more a matte of our FO seizing the opportunity ...
but he has a chance other rookies don't. he can pick where he will live. which coach he wants to play for. does he want to play right away or be on a winning team. you will find out quickly what is most important to him at this point in his life.
the giants can offer basically a max signing bonus. the chance to play for a borderline hall of fame coach of impeccable character and for one of the best organizations in the league (which after everything he's been through may be very important to him right now). to play on an up and coming team that is a contender and also play for a former coach of his and play with one of his best friends (OBJ). and he will be in NY (he may or may not like that).
Collins may sit this year and fill in for injured players (there are always injuries, he'll get playing time). Next year, he starts, with either Beatty or Schwartz no longer starting (Beatty out = Flowers to LT, Collins to RT; Schwartz out = Collins to RG).
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The key is the guaranteed money (as always in the NFL). The pay limits and contract length are clearly defined, but the amount guaranteed is discretionary.
And probably the second item is most important. Generally players go to where they find the most guaranteed money. Not always, but it is a sensible expectation.
So, how much are the Giants willing to guarantee?
I would hope the full amount, all three years.
Pretty sure the NFL came out and said he could not re-enter next year's draft regardless of if he were drafted or not.
The debate here is more about what should be most important to his decision making process.
There are a lot of reasons for the Giants to be an attractive landing spot, there are also a lot of reasons why it isn't.
My opinion is, if the kid is cleared, the Giants should offer the max they can to him and see what he decides in the end.
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threatened to do, and go back into next year's draft. Teams didn't want to waste a pick in order to allow Collins to do that. Now, having gone through a draft, he has no choice but to sign as an UDFA, because sitting out a year gains him nothing...he can't go into next year's draft.
Pretty sure the NFL came out and said he could not re-enter next year's draft regardless of if he were drafted or not.
I'm not optimistic that we sign him, but to completely rule it out would be shortsighted.
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threatened to do, and go back into next year's draft. Teams didn't want to waste a pick in order to allow Collins to do that. Now, having gone through a draft, he has no choice but to sign as an UDFA, because sitting out a year gains him nothing...he can't go into next year's draft.
Pretty sure the NFL came out and said he could not re-enter next year's draft regardless of if he were drafted or not.
No, Mooch, if he were drafted he could sit out the year and re-enter the draft next year. Having gone through a draft undrafted, he doesn't have that option.
You can google LSU lazy players. It was everywhere a couple years ago.
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threatened to do, and go back into next year's draft. Teams didn't want to waste a pick in order to allow Collins to do that. Now, having gone through a draft, he has no choice but to sign as an UDFA, because sitting out a year gains him nothing...he can't go into next year's draft.
Pretty sure the NFL came out and said he could not re-enter next year's draft regardless of if he were drafted or not.
That's collectively bargained. They can say that but they'd be looking at a law suit.
Richberg is the C so Collins can easily work himself in at G or RT kicking Jerry to the bench or even better off the team where he belongs.
that's an indictment on Mosely and Herman, how long do these guys all get to hang around on an nfl roster, earn pay, and contribute nothing on Sundays ?
Oh shit. I forgot about that picture. Someone posted it a couple of months ago. LOL.
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arround Collins. Was suppose to be a high character guy. Assume image from a reliable source?
You can google LSU lazy players. It was everywhere a couple years ago.
Yeah, I remember Spencer Ware had to explain that picture in his interviews.
At least I would like to thinks so!
Go get 'em, Jerry!
So if the Giants want to offer Collins some bonus money they likely can afford the most in the NFL.
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In comment 12273255 yatqb said:
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threatened to do, and go back into next year's draft. Teams didn't want to waste a pick in order to allow Collins to do that. Now, having gone through a draft, he has no choice but to sign as an UDFA, because sitting out a year gains him nothing...he can't go into next year's draft.
Pretty sure the NFL came out and said he could not re-enter next year's draft regardless of if he were drafted or not.
No, Mooch, if he were drafted he could sit out the year and re-enter the draft next year. Having gone through a draft undrafted, he doesn't have that option.
From NFL.com:
Collins' representatives had told clubs that Collins would refuse to sign with a team that drafted him outside the third round and that Collins would simply re-enter the draft in 2016. However, that is not an option according to NFL rules, NFL Media Insider Ian Rapoport reported Saturday. Teams were wary of drafting Collins until they know more information. The opinion across football has been relatively simple: Wait until the investigation process runs its course.
Not cynical at all, and completely correct. There was obviously an agreement amongst owners, or an edict from the top, to not draft him. Someone definitely would have used a 7th at the very least on him.
One report said that as all this news was breaking, teams were actually sharing info about the kid that they'd gathered about his personal life, friends, blemishes, etc...that's something that never normally happens. It was a group decision to wait and see.
Link - ( New Window )
Thanks Hades...I saw that reported as well, and many articles say that. But I also heard it was incorrect, and the NFL.com article I took that excerpt from was more recent than the Florio article. I don't know the legal details, but I know I had heard that the NFL said he couldn't go back in the draft next year regardless of whether he was drafted or not, and that NFL.com article supports it.
NFL.com on Collins - ( New Window )
Craig Erikson is an example of a player who was draft eligible twice. Another more famous example is Bo Jackson, not sure why I thought of Erikson first.
As for the Supplemental Draft, that was NEVER possible. Article 6, Section 2(c) defines the eligibility criteria for the supplemental draft:
calendar day prior to the opening of the first training camp that League Year. No player may elect to bypass a Draft for which he is eligible to apply for selection in a Supplemental Draft.
How could you possibly prove it?
You head it right on the head, a worthless signing if there ever was one. I would guarantee Collins the starting LG position, he is a much superior athlete and would be a starter on any team that drafted him. However after saying that a Florida boy isn't going to the Met when he can play half of his games in Florida.
IMO, that lawsuit would never have a prayer- there is no requirement that you be drafted if you are eligible. Look how many UDFA there are- and how many never even get that.
He can't prove he was even going to be drafted- remember how many guides had guys getting picked in the top rounds- who ended up UDFA?
IMO, thrown out by a judge before the ink is even dry on the paper.
Exactly. Both Beatty and Schwartz could easily become cap casualties in 2016, thus making NYG an optimal destination for La'El if he looks at things from the big picture perspective (e.e., getting an accrued season 2015 working towards Free Agency after three years of service after the 2017 season).
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If a Drafted Rookie has not signed a Player Contract during the period from the date of such Draft to the thirtieth day prior to the first game of the regular season: (i) the Club that drafted the player may not thereafter trade to another Club either its exclusive negotiating rights to such player or any Player Contract that it signs with such player for the players initial League Year; and (ii) the Club that drafted the player is the only Club with which the player may sign a Player Contract until the day of the Draft in the subsequent League Year, at which time such player is eligible to be drafted in the subsequent League Years Draft by any Club except the Club that drafted him in the initial Draft.
Clearly, if Collins wanted to enter the 2016 Draft, his agent should not have warned teams not to draft him on Day 3.
As for the Supplemental Draft, that was NEVER possible. Article 6, Section 2(c) defines the eligibility criteria for the supplemental draft:
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(c) If a player who was not eligible for the Draft in any League Year becomes eligible after the date of the Draft, he will be eligible to be selected in a Supplemental Draft, if the League elects to conduct such a Draft, on or before the seventh
calendar day prior to the opening of the first training camp that League Year. No player may elect to bypass a Draft for which he is eligible to apply for selection in a Supplemental Draft.
Blogger Andrew Brandt(ex Pacxker cap guy) spoke on this this morning on Sirius. He wanted to be an unrestricted FA TYhe thinking was that he would get more after his 3rd year that way. I forget the intricacies of how he worded it but he was specific. That they wanted him to be an UDFA but would renters the draft if chosen.
Blogger Andrew Brandt(ex Pacxker cap guy) spoke on this this morning on Sirius. He wanted to be an unrestricted FA TYhe thinking was that he would get more after his 3rd year that way. I forget the intricacies of how he worded it but he was specific. That they wanted him to be an UDFA but would renters the draft if chosen.
I understand his frustration but he is coming at this wrong. He now is saying even if given the opportunity of being an UDFA something unlikely, he would still seek to reenter the draft.