Again, if someone is going to tell me that a starting position for Pugh is not set in stone, then we'll have to agree to really disagree.
Signing a cheap first-round talent does not erase the investment the organization has already made in Pugh, and to a certain extent, the pressure of not accepting failure with a first round pick. In other words, you are talking about a team that didn't give up on Ramses Barden, Jerrel Jernigan, Sincorice Moss, etc for years. They certainly are not going to give up on a 1st round draft pick who played very well as a rookie and had an inconsistent (and injury-plagued) sophomore year.
It certainly doesn't need to be a national campaign, the allure it could just be the additional exposure that comes with playing in NY so he can get the biggest contract possible in 3 years. Also probably appearance fees at events (which there are likely more of in NY vs. other places, and that could be something he gets in tandem with Beckham). And I believe I remember seeing Diehl/Ohara on some local commercials a few years back.
All in all I think there's a good reason to suspect the Giants are one of many teams interested, and there's good reason to suspect they get serious consideration. The only mark against them is a relatively full line because as Yankee says LC is going to want PT. If he signed on the dotted line I would be willing to dump Schwartz and bite the bullet on that contract. Fact is he is just not a reliable player due to injury risk.
RE: RE: Sorry for this question. I have been on vacation.
I would be willing to forever forgive Reese/Ross for the drafting of OL's Mitch Petrus, James Brewer, and Matt McCants if Collins is cleared and signs with us.
And Eric Herman is only back after being cut and not grabbed by anyone else and Brandon Mosley could not even beat out Snyder last year-so there is plenty to forgive unless one of these 2 really turns it on this year, since they are still on our roster.
I will remain an optimist, even perhaps an unrealistic one
Winston is trying to recruit Collins to the Bucs. No one is going to touch Collins until has gets cleared. that may take a long time.It appears the police have little to go on.
Crazy thought: utilize the preview button to proofread before hitting submit or just let those typos that don't affect the meaning/tone/purpose of the original post stand. The few-minutes-later correction post does more to interrupt the flow of discussion than it does to add value.
but I would not make that statement about Schwartz. Given equal health, he could give him a run, he's not that great. And he has a history of being injured.
But as Eric & others have pointed out, we've invested too much in terms of premium picks & $ on our OL to think he can come in & compete for a starting gig immediately. And you know his agent & him are looking for a place where that can happen.
Is the most vulnerable guy if we sign Collins, he is 29 has the biggest contract other than Beatty. He has also done the least of any of our present OL players. Even with his contract this year he is not a CAP killer but next year could become one if his performance does not improve. There is still also the trade route to consider straight up performance value draft return.
I know some of you will say why not Beatty it's simple he is the only true ready LT on this team even with the Collins signing for this sason.
someone should've drafted this guy, come on look at the odds of a seventh round pick actually contributing on any NFL team. Just don't sign him until he's cleared or if he isn't cut him. It's so different than any other problem player out ther now that's all ready under your control, I for one don't think a team would lose any fan over him being drafted that low, innocent until proven guilty the last time I looked. I for one hope they get him but wish they drafted him late!
The only thing that makes sense to me is the league issued a mandate to not draft him.
To assume the league told all GMs and Owners not to draft him/sign him until he is fully cleared. With all that went on last few years it makes perfect sense
I have no idea why they didn't use one of their Saturday picks on him
There is no new information that has come out, yet every team passed on the guy for seven rounds and now suddenly everyone is interested? The risk for his going to jail or not signing and losing the pick is not an issue. The way you handle those situations is by weighing the risk against the reward, and clearly there came a point in the draft where the risk of getting nothing in return for your pick was heavily outweighed by the reward of a 1st round talent.
Clearly there was some contribution on the part of doing what is right that factored into the decision making process. But what has changed?
To assume the league told all GMs and Owners not to draft him/sign him until he is fully cleared. With all that went on last few years it makes perfect sense
You would think, but I can't see how that would not raise serious CBA and union issues.
On Sirius put it this way, draft him and don't sign, if he's involved simply cut him. It would be very easy to explain the pick to your fans and let things play out. By all reports coming out of LSU he's a good kid, I know they (reports)can be BS, but it's a seventh round pick. As I said this is so different than what the Pats went through with Hernandez, it would be very easy to distance yourself if he's involved.
I can understand why Collins would want a garauntee about starting, but it creates problems. As pointed out, thats not Coughlin's style. Bad as our OL is, we should offer as much opportunity as anyone, but Coughlin's style may not allow Collin's to see that.
I wish style didn't matter, and that Collins realized the most important factor is where he will be in three years when he hits free agency. In that regard, it also doesn't look good for the Giants if they see him as a guard instead of a tackle.
dreaming of a starting 2015 offensive line that looks like Beatty - Pugh - Richburg - La'El - Flowers ... that's right, Schwartz our prized FA signing few years back MIA ... still nursing his booh booh big toe ... the $4 mill per legend ... can you imagine the ground statistics running to the right side ... you can give Pee Wee Herman the ball and tell him to just run right and he'd be a 2000 yard back ...
look back at Schwartz film in KC you will see a B-/C rated player ... making A rated $$ ... this is your "swing" Olineman, tell him to relax on the far end of the comfy bench, and rest his big toe ... in 2016 you let Beatty hit the bricks, La'El book ending with Flowers is every QB's dream ... Eli will play till he is 45 years old
Perhaps in the past but when John Mara says the o-line needs to be fixed I would think all previous investments don't mean all that much. I hope the Giants don't operate that way at least. That's like saying they're not going to upgrade DE b/c they already invested in Cedric Jones w/ a high first round pick. Granted, I don't think any team can offer Collins a starting position. He needs to earn it in training camp so I think that whole argument doesn't hold much water. He could suck in the pros. I don't know how he could look at the Giants and not see a path towards a starting job. The only position locked down right now is LT. Everything else is up for grabs.
but to me, it's obvious the NFL asked teams not to draft this guy. I'm sure it was off the record, but you can't convince me that one of 32 teams wouldnt take a chance on this kid with a 7th round pick unless they were told not to. The interest he's getting now almost proves that point. Why fight with other teams for him when you could have had him for yourself in the 7th. I'm thinking the NFL suspects that he was involved in the murder. Otherwise they wouldn't put themselves in a risky spot like this. If this kid had nothing to do with the murder, the police and the NFL owe him a huge apology.
If a team drafted him, he could sit out the year, as he'd
threatened to do, and go back into next year's draft. Teams didn't want to waste a pick in order to allow Collins to do that. Now, having gone through a draft, he has no choice but to sign as an UDFA, because sitting out a year gains him nothing...he can't go into next year's draft.
Geoff Schwartz is more interested in humble bragging on Twitter or maintaining his Wikipedia page than playing football anyway. He was tremendous at KC with a +18.6 PFF score, but now that he's getting paid, and the injuries have started, the Giants can't count on him. Once the lower leg and foot injuries set in on big guys like that, there is a high likelihood they're toast.
On Sirius put it this way, draft him and don't sign, if he's involved simply cut him. It would be very easy to explain the pick to your fans and let things play out. By all reports coming out of LSU he's a good kid, I know they (reports)can be BS, but it's a seventh round pick. As I said this is so different than what the Pats went through with Hernandez, it would be very easy to distance yourself if he's involved.
In that situation, as a 7th round pick, he would likely refuse to sign and re-enter the draft next year. The way it played out, because he made it known he would do that, that is no longer an option for him.
Again, if someone is going to tell me that a starting position for Pugh is not set in stone, then we'll have to agree to really disagree.
Signing a cheap first-round talent does not erase the investment the organization has already made in Pugh, and to a certain extent, the pressure of not accepting failure with a first round pick. In other words, you are talking about a team that didn't give up on Ramses Barden, Jerrel Jernigan, Sincorice Moss, etc for years. They certainly are not going to give up on a 1st round draft pick who played very well as a rookie and had an inconsistent (and injury-plagued) sophomore year.
Pugh is one of the safest picks to start forget about him. What about Schwartz?
He's proven nothing since he got here. His cap number could be more due to desperation than anything. Is anyone confident with him penciled as a starter and no depth?
If I'm talking to Collins I'm telling him there's a legit shot to win a G spot or the RT spot. Flowers needing time or Schwartz being benched are two very likely scenarios if they were able to sign him
Idk what Collins' decision making process is but if I'm the giants I make a serious effort to bring this kid in.
to try and bring this kid in. He is not a suspect so you can still claim you are assuming innocent until proven guilty. Obviously if he is arrested and will have a trial coming, you cut him.
In regards to the investments made in other lineman, that can't be a consideration. Those are sunk costs. If you can get a first round talent for peanuts, you don't pass on it because you have Justin Pugh or Geoff Schwartz. Those are not generational talents that can't be put on the bench. It's a great problem to have. If Collins comes in and he outplays either one of them (or even Beatty although I believe they will not put any rookie at LT) then he starts.
The costs invested in Pugh, Schwartz and Beatty are sunk and you can't undo them. That should not handcuff them into making poor decisions going forward.
RE: I think the Giants need to do whatever they can
to try and bring this kid in. He is not a suspect so you can still claim you are assuming innocent until proven guilty. Obviously if he is arrested and will have a trial coming, you cut him.
In regards to the investments made in other lineman, that can't be a consideration. Those are sunk costs. If you can get a first round talent for peanuts, you don't pass on it because you have Justin Pugh or Geoff Schwartz. Those are not generational talents that can't be put on the bench. It's a great problem to have. If Collins comes in and he outplays either one of them (or even Beatty although I believe they will not put any rookie at LT) then he starts.
The costs invested in Pugh, Schwartz and Beatty are sunk and you can't undo them. That should not handcuff them into making poor decisions going forward.
Absolutely. Put the best 5 out there. That would be stupid to start people because of what they're paid.
Strictly speaking, salary was converted to a "games active" incentive, but a pay cut is a pay cut. He is anything but secure, and could easily be a cap casualty in 2016.
whether or not La'El comes here has no bearing on who is currently on our roster ... its a matter of want, wanting him here, FO must do there work ...
How about him wanting to be here? It takes two parties to make a deal, and we aren't his only chance to go to the prom...he's gonna get lots of invites.
whether or not La'El comes here has no bearing on who is currently on our roster ... its a matter of want, wanting him here, FO must do there work ...
How about him wanting to be here? It takes two parties to make a deal, and we aren't his only chance to go to the prom...he's gonna get lots of invites.
you are talking about a 20 year old "man", who would not want to come to the biggest market place in the world ? the lifestyle, the glam, the night life, all these alluring factors come to play ... these "kids" all dream of making it big in NYC ... its more a matte of our FO seizing the opportunity ...
if Collins signs here, he very may well sit a year and start next year for Schwartz and be first off the bench this year in case of injury
but he has a chance other rookies don't. he can pick where he will live. which coach he wants to play for. does he want to play right away or be on a winning team. you will find out quickly what is most important to him at this point in his life.
the giants can offer basically a max signing bonus. the chance to play for a borderline hall of fame coach of impeccable character and for one of the best organizations in the league (which after everything he's been through may be very important to him right now). to play on an up and coming team that is a contender and also play for a former coach of his and play with one of his best friends (OBJ). and he will be in NY (he may or may not like that).
No see link at 9:06 which gives an update on investigation.
Signing a cheap first-round talent does not erase the investment the organization has already made in Pugh, and to a certain extent, the pressure of not accepting failure with a first round pick. In other words, you are talking about a team that didn't give up on Ramses Barden, Jerrel Jernigan, Sincorice Moss, etc for years. They certainly are not going to give up on a 1st round draft pick who played very well as a rookie and had an inconsistent (and injury-plagued) sophomore year.
All in all I think there's a good reason to suspect the Giants are one of many teams interested, and there's good reason to suspect they get serious consideration. The only mark against them is a relatively full line because as Yankee says LC is going to want PT. If he signed on the dotted line I would be willing to dump Schwartz and bite the bullet on that contract. Fact is he is just not a reliable player due to injury risk.
Quote:
Has this dude been cleared of any and all wrongdoing??
Nope not yet..
And he's never been considered a suspect either. So, you know, there's that.
Thanks for the perfect answer to my question.
And Eric Herman is only back after being cut and not grabbed by anyone else and Brandon Mosley could not even beat out Snyder last year-so there is plenty to forgive unless one of these 2 really turns it on this year, since they are still on our roster.
I will remain an optimist, even perhaps an unrealistic one
Crazy thought: utilize the preview button to proofread before hitting submit or just let those typos that don't affect the meaning/tone/purpose of the original post stand. The few-minutes-later correction post does more to interrupt the flow of discussion than it does to add value.
Measure twice, cut once? Proof twice, submit once.
They don't, move on.
They don't, move on.
The fact that all teams passed on him should tell you it's not as simple as that.
I know some of you will say why not Beatty it's simple he is the only true ready LT on this team even with the Collins signing for this sason.
The only thing that makes sense to me is the league issued a mandate to not draft him.
It's about the MEL's black eye and headlines about murder and abuse on the evening news.
No team will risk that IMO. Collins must overcome all suspicion before any team will associate itself with his name.
Clearly there was some contribution on the part of doing what is right that factored into the decision making process. But what has changed?
You would think, but I can't see how that would not raise serious CBA and union issues.
I wish style didn't matter, and that Collins realized the most important factor is where he will be in three years when he hits free agency. In that regard, it also doesn't look good for the Giants if they see him as a guard instead of a tackle.
Signing a cheap first-round talent does not erase the investment the organization has already made in Pugh, and to a certain extent, the pressure of not accepting failure with a first round pick. In other words, you are talking about a team that didn't give up on Ramses Barden, Jerrel Jernigan, Sincorice Moss, etc for years. They certainly are not going to give up on a 1st round draft pick who played very well as a rookie and had an inconsistent (and injury-plagued) sophomore year.
Pugh is one of the safest picks to start forget about him. What about Schwartz?
He's proven nothing since he got here. His cap number could be more due to desperation than anything. Is anyone confident with him penciled as a starter and no depth?
If I'm talking to Collins I'm telling him there's a legit shot to win a G spot or the RT spot. Flowers needing time or Schwartz being benched are two very likely scenarios if they were able to sign him
Idk what Collins' decision making process is but if I'm the giants I make a serious effort to bring this kid in.
In regards to the investments made in other lineman, that can't be a consideration. Those are sunk costs. If you can get a first round talent for peanuts, you don't pass on it because you have Justin Pugh or Geoff Schwartz. Those are not generational talents that can't be put on the bench. It's a great problem to have. If Collins comes in and he outplays either one of them (or even Beatty although I believe they will not put any rookie at LT) then he starts.
The costs invested in Pugh, Schwartz and Beatty are sunk and you can't undo them. That should not handcuff them into making poor decisions going forward.
In regards to the investments made in other lineman, that can't be a consideration. Those are sunk costs. If you can get a first round talent for peanuts, you don't pass on it because you have Justin Pugh or Geoff Schwartz. Those are not generational talents that can't be put on the bench. It's a great problem to have. If Collins comes in and he outplays either one of them (or even Beatty although I believe they will not put any rookie at LT) then he starts.
The costs invested in Pugh, Schwartz and Beatty are sunk and you can't undo them. That should not handcuff them into making poor decisions going forward.
Absolutely. Put the best 5 out there. That would be stupid to start people because of what they're paid.
Did the NFL ban him from being drafted?
How about him wanting to be here? It takes two parties to make a deal, and we aren't his only chance to go to the prom...he's gonna get lots of invites.
Quote:
whether or not La'El comes here has no bearing on who is currently on our roster ... its a matter of want, wanting him here, FO must do there work ...
How about him wanting to be here? It takes two parties to make a deal, and we aren't his only chance to go to the prom...he's gonna get lots of invites.
you are talking about a 20 year old "man", who would not want to come to the biggest market place in the world ? the lifestyle, the glam, the night life, all these alluring factors come to play ... these "kids" all dream of making it big in NYC ... its more a matte of our FO seizing the opportunity ...
but he has a chance other rookies don't. he can pick where he will live. which coach he wants to play for. does he want to play right away or be on a winning team. you will find out quickly what is most important to him at this point in his life.
the giants can offer basically a max signing bonus. the chance to play for a borderline hall of fame coach of impeccable character and for one of the best organizations in the league (which after everything he's been through may be very important to him right now). to play on an up and coming team that is a contender and also play for a former coach of his and play with one of his best friends (OBJ). and he will be in NY (he may or may not like that).