You really are a special kind of stupid. http://abcnews.go.com/2020/george-zimmerman-jury-told-injuries-insignificant/story?id=19552856
Quote:
Dr. Valerie Rao testified that Zimmerman was struck as few as three times by Martin during the fight that night. She also asserted his head may have only been slammed on the concrete a single time.
During the defense's cross examination of Rao, Zimmerman attorney Mark O'Mara got Rao to concede that his client's injuries could have been caused by more than three impacts. She also indicated that abrasions on Martin's knuckles were consistent with him striking someone.
If is on top of me beating me, and/or banging my head into concrete, I'm not waiting for him to continue to beat me if I can do something about it. If you agree that Martin attacked Zimmerman, if you agree that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, then you have to acknowledge that Zimmerman legally shot Martin. Unless you are a complete moron. Doesn't mean he's a great guy... just means he shot in self-defense as allowable under the law.
Two witnesses called by the prosecution today described George Zimmerman as being on the losing end of a fight with Trayvon Martin in the moments before Zimmerman shot the Florida teenager.
However, an EMT who was on the scene immediately following the shooting testified that she treated Zimmerman for five minutes before releasing him into police care.
Zimmerman, 29, is facing second degree murder charges for shooting and killing Martin on Feb. 26, 2012. He maintains he shot Martin, 17, in self defense after his head was slammed several times against a concrete sidewalk.
John Good told the jury today that he yelled "stop" at both men shortly after realizing that what he at first assumed to be a dog attack was actually two men grappling on the ground.
Catch up on all the details from the George Zimmerman murder trial.
"I said cut it out. I'm calling 911 because it was getting serious," said Good.
Good testified that he saw what he believed to be Martin on top of Zimmerman.
"The color on top was dark and the color at bottom was…red," Good said referring to the men's clothing.
At another point he told the court that the person on the bottom had "lighter skin color."
Zimmerman is a white Hispanic who was wearing a red and black jacket that night. Martin, who was black, was wearing a dark sweatshirt.
"The person on the bottom, I could hear a 'Help,'" he said.
George Zimmerman Case in Pictures
Under cross examination by Zimmerman's lawyer, Good said he believes he saw Martin on top punching Zimmerman "MMA style," a reference to mixed martial arts.
"The person on top was ground and pounding the person on the bottom?"asked Zimmerman attorney Mark O'Mara.
"Correct," said Good
Good testified that he did not see Martin banging Zimmerman's head on the concrete.
His account was accompanied by a recording of Good's 911 call to police in which he is heard telling the dispatcher that he heard a gunshot.
"I'm pretty sure the guy is dead out there. Holy sh**. .. There's a black guy down and he's been shot. It looks like he is dead," Good said.
Jonathan Manalo, who also lived near the shooting scene, testified today that Zimmerman told him just moments after Martin was killed to call his wife and say "Just tell her I shot someone."
Manalo did not see the confrontation between Zimmerman and the unarmed teenager, but walked outside of his home with a flashlight moments after hearing a gunshot.
He said Zimmerman looked like he had "got his butt beat," but was "speaking clearly."
Manalo took photos of Zimmerman's bloody nose, the back of his bloody head, Martin's body lying face down in the grass and a flashlight on the ground.
He says Zimmerman told him as he approached, "This guy was beating me up. I was defending myself and I shot him."
Stacy Livingston, an EMT who arrived on the scene, said she treated Zimmerman -- who was complaining of dizziness -- for five minutes before releasing him into police custody.
In addition, Police Officer Tim Smith told the court he took Zimmerman into custody on the night of the shooting and that the back of Zimmerman's jacket was wet and had bits of grass on it, and the back of his pants appeared wet. It had been raining that night and the ground was wet.
Again, you don't have to wait until injuries are "life-threatening" before using deadly force if you are being attacked. Even the notion of this is laughably stupid.
So you can cherry-pick one comment made by the medical examiner who was dealing in "maybe's" and "could have's" all you want... but the jury considered the totality of the evidence, and most fair-minded people do the same. At least 3 blows, lmao.
Again, anyone who says Zimmerman "approached" Martin is being speculative, btw, and really is immaterial as to the legality of using lethal force.
What a shocker, dipshit here conveniently left out this testimony:
Quote:
Two eyewitnesses, meanwhile, said they thought Trayvon cried out for help during a struggle on the sidewalk.
testimony on Wednesday by Ms. Surdyka and another neighbor, Jeannee Manalo.
Ms. Manalo said she thought Zimmerman was astride Trayvon during a violent struggle. But she also said it was too dark to see exactly what was going on, and she made the judgment about who was the aggressor by looking at photos of Zimmerman and Trayvon afterward. She said she still believed she saw Zimmerman “hitting down” on a prone Trayvon.
Surdyka testifed she heard from her second-floor window two loud voices, including an “aggressive voice” and a voice that belonged to “a boy.”
“I felt like it was the boy’s voice,” Jayne Surdyka told jurors about the deadly scene that unfolded on a rainy February night last year in her Sanford, Fla., neighborhood.
If your going to pull testimony out of your ass, at least include all of it, not just that which you want to use.
I'm also going to tell you for the last time, no one but njm stated he approached Martin, so stop tryiung to use that as some angle. That is a weak attempt at parsing what has been said
There is way more to this story than you guys understand. The headlines are very deceiving.
The fellow who tried to kill Zimmerman yesterday is the same fellow who alleged "road rage" in September of last year. This whacko stalker's name is Matt Apperson - a fairly unhinged guy.
so, your big gotcha is a woman who claims to have seen something Â
Also, here are the jury instructions that specifically reference stand your ground. I'm out. - ( New Window )
Whoops!
[quote]That matched the assessment of legal experts who earlier Monday were describing the verdict on Saturday as the result of successful, garden-variety self-defense arguments that could sway a jury in any state.
Though these observers said Florida's expanded self-defense law, which says citizens can "stand their ground" rather than retreat in the face of a deadly threat has emboldened citizens to take unnecessary risks and led to an increase in homicides, they detected little impact on the Zimmerman case.
[quote] Link - ( New Window )
At least you've stopped pretending it was irrelevant when it was clearly in the instructions. I'm not pretending he got off and should have been convicted. The law is the law. It was applied correctly. With stand your ground, it was nearly impossible to convict that dumbfuck.
But the fucking tragic reality is that the law (especially when it leaves room for standing your ground) allows for a numbnuts wannabe cop with a gun to watch the neighborhood -> follow a kid who wasn't doing anything -> chase a kid who wasn't doing anything leading to an altercation -> Then numbnuts is losing a fistfight and kills the kid who wasn't doing anything. And this fuckface, numbnuts wannabe asshole who goes on to show what a non-model citizen fuckup he really is can claim self defense when the reality is that if he'd just have stayed home that night, none of this shit would have happened and the kid would still be alive. If he had just not assumed the black kid walking in the neighborhood was a criminal the kid would be alive. If he had just let the cops follow up on it as directed by 911 the kid would still be alive.
But, I'm glad you feel the need to defend numbnuts GZ. He's terrific.
One man in the incident had been punched. It was Zimmerman. One had knuckles that were busted up. That was Martin.
But yeah, some woman who admits she doesn't really know what she saw think that Zimmerman was the one beating on Martin. You've got me.
So from the fact that Zimmerman got punched, and Martin had scrapes on his hand we can throw out any kind of theory that Zimmerman initiated this? That those scrapes are proof positive that Martin started this? Never seen a fight where one idiot decides to shove someone and gets clocked? Never seen a fight where one guy takes a swing and misses and then gets his ass handed to him? Must be nice to live in such a proof positive world where scrapes on a knuckle is all you need
See the ONLY one who has had a say in what actually happened at the start was the guy fighting not to go to jail.
never seen a fight where an armed man up and takes a swing Â
Amusing how you just gloss over, yknow, how the fight starts. He's CHASING him! And then he's losing a fight.....why is there a fight?
Ok...come on, you can definitely defend the law and the outcome of the case without having to be so obtuse that you can't see Zimmerman for what he is, a total jackass cop-wannabe, who put himself into a shitty situation (even when he was advised not to follow by a police dispatcher) that eventually led to the altercation that resulted in him having to kill Martin.
Not sure if you're just bored on Monday and choose to be extra argumentative or if you seriously believe that Zimmerman didn't put himself into a shitty situation by his own action that night that required him to defend himself.
Zimmerman had moved away from Florida and was back home visiting family when this stalker spotted him on Lake Worth Blvd and fired a single shot into George's truck (this is the same truck he was in the night of the TM incident).
Because he was chasing him? Why the fuck is he allowed to do that? Zimmerman started all this shit. Martin was trying to go home.
And yet, somehow, with more than enough time to get home from the time Zimmerman lost sight of him, he didn't actually go home. That's odd. Wonder why that was??
Following someone is against the law - yes or no? Simple question, simple answer.
RE: never seen a fight where an armed man up and takes a swing Â
As if some fucking phone operator making ten bucks an hour is the voice of God or something.
Really? So a police dispatcher's advice is just that of a $10 an hour nobody?
Definitely a head scratching comment. Much better that a wanna be vigilanti on meds take matters into his own hands instead of listening. I mean what could actually happen, someone getting killed?
It's just another dumb fucking thing that GZ did that led to Martin being dead.
What led to Martin being dead was jumping a guy he didn't know was armed.
Which, by the way, is something else the people who latch on to "crazy man with a gun stalking him!!1!" tend to gloss over. Either Martin got into a fistfight with an armed man, which is insanely stupid, or he didn't know Zimmerman was armed and thus the the narrative is incorrect.
Because he was chasing him? Why the fuck is he allowed to do that? Zimmerman started all this shit. Martin was trying to go home.
And yet, somehow, with more than enough time to get home from the time Zimmerman lost sight of him, he didn't actually go home. That's odd. Wonder why that was??
Following someone is against the law - yes or no? Simple question, simple answer.
I already said it's not illegal and the case was decided correctly based on the facts. Don't be obtuse.
The point is that George Zimmerman is a gaping asshole who, like all of us, deserved defense in a court of law but not on a message board, which makes your dedication to defending him kinda weird.
RE: RE: never seen a fight where an armed man up and takes a swing Â
at a larger man who may or may not be armed for no apparent reason, no. That is indeed a new one for me.
Larger man? Zimmerman outweighed him by 27 lbs. So the guy who has an actual gun does not want to start a fight with someone who may have one? OK
He was several inches shorter, and at night, in the dark, I'm guessing it may have been difficult to gauge the build of someone wearing a big sweatshirt. And, no, he doesn't want to start a fight. Are you being deliberately obtuse? Why the hell is he going to start a fight instead of drawing his weapon? That makes absolutely no sense.
RE: RE: RE: I also love the 'as directed by 911' Â
It's just another dumb fucking thing that GZ did that led to Martin being dead.
What led to Martin being dead was jumping a guy he didn't know was armed.
Which, by the way, is something else the people who latch on to "crazy man with a gun stalking him!!1!" tend to gloss over. Either Martin got into a fistfight with an armed man, which is insanely stupid, or he didn't know Zimmerman was armed and thus the the narrative is incorrect.
LOL. Yeah, Martin is the stupid one who fucked up. You're a lost cause.
scrutinizing witnesses... I'm game. The fact is, Good was and is the only reliable eyewitness in the case. You seriously want to cite Surdyka, who testified she heard three gunshots? These witnesses admitted they really couldn't see what was going on. Surdyka was chasing the media to try to catch some celebrity before it went to trial. She was the least reliable "witness" in the case.
Early in the day, they called two neighbor eyewitnesses who heard and saw part of the confrontation between Trayvon and Zimmerman the night of the shooting.
If jurors wanted clarity from them, they did not get it.
By the time they stepped down from the witness stand, both had been damaged.
The first was Jayne Surdyka, a former Olympic-caliber marathoner. Just minutes before the shooting, she heard someone make two desperate cries for help — the second she described as a "yelp."
She is convinced, she said, that the second voice was Trayvon's.
"Someone sounded very angry, very agitated," she said. The other person spoke with "a lighter, softer, higher-pitched voice."
She also reported seeing two figures on the ground fighting or wrestling.
But her account does not mesh with other evidence on three key points.
She testified that Trayvon was on the bottom, facedown when Zimmerman shot him. But Trayvon was shot at near-point-blank range in the chest — not the back.
Surdyka said she heard three gunshots. There was one.
She also got their clothing confused, saying the figure wearing black clothing survived, and she saw him stand up and walk around after the shooting.
Trayvon was wearing a charcoal-colored hoodie, Zimmerman a red jacket.
The second neighbor, Jeannee Manalo, also had credibility problems. She testified that she heard "a howling sound," looked out a glass door and saw two figures on the ground fighting.
The one on top was moving his hands "like he's hitting him," she said.
"That's when my husband told me to sit down and mind my own business," she said.
A few seconds later, she heard a shot, she said.
When she was interviewed immediately after the shooting, she told police she could not tell who was on top, but a few weeks later, after seeing photos of Trayvon on television, she told investigators that she was convinced it was Zimmerman because he is bigger.
On Wednesday, that was her testimony again until defense attorney Mark O'Mara pointed out that the photos of Trayvon on which she had relied showed him at about age 10 to 12.
"You're not sure as you sit here today who was where in the altercation?" O'Mara asked.
"No," she answered.
Only John Good had a vantage point where he could even tell who was who, and if memory serves his apartment was the closest to the altercation. The "witnesses" you are citing had contrary accounts of what happened, and contrary accounts as to the physical evidence in the case. John Good's account he gave to police matched the evidence, matched Zimmerman's story he also gave to police, without collaboration, and matched the evidence.
Dude, I have no desire to sit here and re-hash this case. The verdict was made, it was the correct verdict, and every point you have made is irrelevant or refuted.
You clearly don't have an understanding of this case, self-defense laws, or the ability to use basic logic.
I'm done, you can have the last word if you want. I'm no Zimmerman supporter, but the main point in this case is you can be an asshole and still have the right to defend yourself when attacked, and you don't have the right to attack someone because they are an asshole.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I also love the 'as directed by 911' Â
LOL. Yeah, Martin is the stupid one who fucked up. You're a lost cause.
Seeing as how he's dead because he jumped a guy who turned out to have a gun rather than just going home....yeah, I'd say there were bad decisions made by both parties.
RE: RE: RE: never seen a fight where an armed man up and takes a swing Â
at a larger man who may or may not be armed for no apparent reason, no. That is indeed a new one for me.
Larger man? Zimmerman outweighed him by 27 lbs. So the guy who has an actual gun does not want to start a fight with someone who may have one? OK
He was several inches shorter, and at night, in the dark, I'm guessing it may have been difficult to gauge the build of someone wearing a big sweatshirt. And, no, he doesn't want to start a fight. Are you being deliberately obtuse? Why the hell is he going to start a fight instead of drawing his weapon? That makes absolutely no sense.
How do you know he didn't want to start something? Every action he took that night appeared that he wanted to start something, be it a questioning Martin, or a confrontation. And if he did walk up to him with his gun drawn, that right there is a criminal act. That gun emboldened him to act the way he did. Every arrest he has had since that trial involved a physical act or threat with a gun by Martin shows where this guys head is at with regards to guns and his bravery
Quote:
In July 2005, when he was 21, Zimmerman was arrested after shoving an undercover alcohol-control agent while a friend of Zimmerman's was being arrested for underage drinking. The officer alleged that Zimmerman had said, "I don't care who you are," followed by a profanity, and had refused to leave the area after the officer had shown their badge.[27] The charges were subsequently dropped when Zimmerman entered a pre-trial diversion program that included anger-management classes.[3][28] Also in 2005, Zimmerman's ex-fiancée filed a restraining order against him, alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman requested a reciprocal restraining order. Both orders were granted.[3][29] These incidents were raised by prosecutors at Zimmerman's initial bond hearing. The judge described them as "run of the mill."[30][31]
On September 9, 2013, in Lake Mary, police responded to a 911 call by Zimmerman's estranged wife, who reported that Zimmerman had threatened her and her father with a gun and had punched her father in the face. Zimmerman was briefly detained and questioned by police.[32] No gun was found at the scene. Police took a broken iPad from the scene for examination of a video recording of the incident to determine whether to press charges against either Zimmerman or his wife.[33] His wife declined to press charges, later expressing regret about her decision.[34] After determining that the iPad video could not be recovered, the Lake Mary police department announced they would not be pressing charges against Zimmerman, his wife, or her father.[35]
On November 18, 2013, Zimmerman's girlfriend called the police alleging that after she had asked Zimmerman to leave her home, he had pointed a shotgun at her and begun breaking her belongings.[36] The police reported that Zimmerman had barricaded himself inside the apartment before they had made their way inside and arrested him.[37] He was charged with aggravated assault with a weapon – a felony – as well as domestic violence battery and criminal mischief.[38][39] On December 6, Zimmerman's girlfriend asked that the charges against Zimmerman be dropped and that the restraining order barring him from seeing her be lifted, after which prosecutors said that they would no longer be pursuing a case against him.[40][41]
On Tuesday September 9, 2014, George Zimmerman was named by police in a road rage incident where he reportedly threatened and followed another driver.[42] Zimmerman reportedly responded aggressively when he noticed another driver pointing at him. According to the other driver Zimmerman said "Do you know who I am?" before saying, "I'll (expletive) kill you." Zimmerman allegedly followed the other driver to a parking lot while the driver called 911, but he fled before the police arrived.[43] The other driver declined to press charges.
Todays incident involves the same guy he threatened during his last road rage incident. He is constantly looking for fights
that tried to kill Zimmerman yesterday. Matt Apperson. As I said earlier, this is same guy who made a fictitious complaint to police last September about a "road rage" incident. After he fired the weapon into Zimmerman's truck, he actually bragged to someone that he shot George Zimmerman
If I am not mistaken, he is in police custody right now.
scrutinizing witnesses... I'm game. The fact is, Good was and is the only reliable eyewitness in the case. You seriously want to cite Surdyka, who testified she heard three gunshots? These witnesses admitted they really couldn't see what was going on. Surdyka was chasing the media to try to catch some celebrity before it went to trial. She was the least reliable "witness" in the case.
Early in the day, they called two neighbor eyewitnesses who heard and saw part of the confrontation between Trayvon and Zimmerman the night of the shooting.
If jurors wanted clarity from them, they did not get it.
By the time they stepped down from the witness stand, both had been damaged.
The first was Jayne Surdyka, a former Olympic-caliber marathoner. Just minutes before the shooting, she heard someone make two desperate cries for help — the second she described as a "yelp."
She is convinced, she said, that the second voice was Trayvon's.
"Someone sounded very angry, very agitated," she said. The other person spoke with "a lighter, softer, higher-pitched voice."
She also reported seeing two figures on the ground fighting or wrestling.
But her account does not mesh with other evidence on three key points.
She testified that Trayvon was on the bottom, facedown when Zimmerman shot him. But Trayvon was shot at near-point-blank range in the chest — not the back.
Surdyka said she heard three gunshots. There was one.
She also got their clothing confused, saying the figure wearing black clothing survived, and she saw him stand up and walk around after the shooting.
Trayvon was wearing a charcoal-colored hoodie, Zimmerman a red jacket.
The second neighbor, Jeannee Manalo, also had credibility problems. She testified that she heard "a howling sound," looked out a glass door and saw two figures on the ground fighting.
The one on top was moving his hands "like he's hitting him," she said.
"That's when my husband told me to sit down and mind my own business," she said.
A few seconds later, she heard a shot, she said.
When she was interviewed immediately after the shooting, she told police she could not tell who was on top, but a few weeks later, after seeing photos of Trayvon on television, she told investigators that she was convinced it was Zimmerman because he is bigger.
On Wednesday, that was her testimony again until defense attorney Mark O'Mara pointed out that the photos of Trayvon on which she had relied showed him at about age 10 to 12.
"You're not sure as you sit here today who was where in the altercation?" O'Mara asked.
"No," she answered.
Only John Good had a vantage point where he could even tell who was who, and if memory serves his apartment was the closest to the altercation. The "witnesses" you are citing had contrary accounts of what happened, and contrary accounts as to the physical evidence in the case. John Good's account he gave to police matched the evidence, matched Zimmerman's story he also gave to police, without collaboration, and matched the evidence.
Dude, I have no desire to sit here and re-hash this case. The verdict was made, it was the correct verdict, and every point you have made is irrelevant or refuted.
You clearly don't have an understanding of this case, self-defense laws, or the ability to use basic logic.
I'm done, you can have the last word if you want. I'm no Zimmerman supporter, but the main point in this case is you can be an asshole and still have the right to defend yourself when attacked, and you don't have the right to attack someone because they are an asshole.
You do realize that Good testified he could not confirm the man on top (who he says appeared to be Martin) hit Zimmerman, or pound his head into the concrete correct? Trhat he admitted that in trial. Also he claimed that the only way he could tell who was who was by the color of their clothes and what he thought was lighter skin color with regards to the guy on the bottom. He said this even though he could not say if the guys shirt was white or red. How can you not tell the difference between white and red, but you can discern skin color even though you cant see if someone is getting punched?
that tried to kill Zimmerman yesterday. Matt Apperson. As I said earlier, this is same guy who made a fictitious complaint to police last September about a "road rage" incident. After he fired the weapon into Zimmerman's truck, he actually bragged to someone that he shot George Zimmerman
If I am not mistaken, he is in police custody right now.
I don't know the particulars of that Road Rage incident, but it was Zimmerman who left the scene not this guy
into custody. There are witnesses who reported that Apperson opened fire on Zimmerman's vehicle. It missed Zimmerman and shattered glass on the other side.
He said he couldn't be certain that he saw that... yet, he described what he thinks he saw, and it matched the physical evidence and GZ's account. It was dusk when the altercation occurred. He certainly got pretty close to the details. He did not say the jacket was white. He said red or light-colored. It would be fair to say in compromised visibility that GZ's jacket is both to the casual observer.
His description of the clothing of both parties made his testimony particularly strong.
criminal record reveals he was convicted of DUI, drug possession, careless driving, several probation violations, and a citation for not registering his current place of residence, as required by law.
criminal record reveals he was convicted of DUI, drug possession, careless driving, several probation violations, and a citation for not registering his current place of residence, as required by law.
I would never intentionally pick a fight with you, but there are more complete details of the September incident which completely flip around who was stalking whom. Zimmerman left because Apperson left his gun visible in the seat of his car.
This guy has some weird fascination with Zimmerman and wants to kill him. Called him a baby killer.
You can pick a fight with montanagiant... it's ok. You'll win because people like him only like to deal with speculation, maybe's, emotion, what MSM/the internet tells them to think, and their imagination. People like us try to be objective and look at the totality of evidence and consider all the facts, without preconceived notions and biases.
You will get called a dipshit, though. So as long as you're cool with that...
"According to Cornell, the man told him that he and Zimmerman have had three disputes. This time, Zimmerman waved a gun and the man shot at him, according to Cornell.
Police arrived minutes after he called 911, Cornell said.
Police have not verified Cornell's account to CNN.
History of run-ins with the law
It is the latest headline-grabbing incident for Zimmerman since his acquittal in July 2013 on a murder charge in the death of Martin, a 17-year-old African-American.
Zimmerman fatally shot Martin on February 26, 2012.
On that day, Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch captain in Sanford, Florida, called 911 to report "a suspicious person" in the neighborhood.
The dispatcher asked him if he was following the person and Zimmerman replied that he was "trying to find out where he went."
He ignored the dispatcher's advice not to follow the person, and according to later accounts by Zimmerman, Martin jumped toward him and a fight ensued."
To this day, I can't see how some defend Zimmerman. How they instead of feeling bad for the kid who was running an errand, instead mocking his death because "he wasn't a saint". And that a zealot with a gun and an itchy finger initiated the whole incident by breaking his own neighborhood's rules about involvement, creating a situation where TM felt he needed to defend himself from the guy who was following him...And TM turned out to be right--he was being followed by a guy who would later kill him. He was right! Yet some blame this victim.
You can pick a fight with montanagiant... it's ok. You'll win because people like him only like to deal with speculation, maybe's, emotion, what MSM/the internet tells them to think, and their imagination. People like us try to be objective and look at the totality of evidence and consider all the facts, without preconceived notions and biases.
You will get called a dipshit, though. So as long as you're cool with that...
Awww Allstar is all upset because he was made to look a fool...Awww.
Hey Dickstain, Bake and I are actually friends. Both from the same upstate city. We are about as diverse in our thinking as it gets but we always have a rational discussion. Unlike you he has quite a bit ofknowledge on subjects and he can write a ratinal post.
"According to Cornell, the man told him that he and Zimmerman have had three disputes. This time, Zimmerman waved a gun and the man shot at him, according to Cornell.
Police arrived minutes after he called 911, Cornell said.
Police have not verified Cornell's account to CNN.
History of run-ins with the law
It is the latest headline-grabbing incident for Zimmerman since his acquittal in July 2013 on a murder charge in the death of Martin, a 17-year-old African-American.
Zimmerman fatally shot Martin on February 26, 2012.
On that day, Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch captain in Sanford, Florida, called 911 to report "a suspicious person" in the neighborhood.
The dispatcher asked him if he was following the person and Zimmerman replied that he was "trying to find out where he went."
He ignored the dispatcher's advice not to follow the person, and according to later accounts by Zimmerman, Martin jumped toward him and a fight ensued."
To this day, I can't see how some defend Zimmerman. How they instead of feeling bad for the kid who was running an errand, instead mocking his death because "he wasn't a saint". And that a zealot with a gun and an itchy finger initiated the whole incident by breaking his own neighborhood's rules about involvement, creating a situation where TM felt he needed to defend himself from the guy who was following him...And TM turned out to be right--he was being followed by a guy who would later kill him. He was right! Yet some blame this victim.
Ultimately, does it matter? Nope. People do all sorts of stupid things that make them crime victims. Doesn't change the facts.
I guess it depends on how you look at it. Legally, probably not as the law is written in Florida. However, when it comes to culpability, you can't just classify this as another person doing something stupid. Most stupid actions don't amount to a person putting themselves in a potential dangerous situation that should be reserved for the police. And this leading to the death of an innocent person gives an entire demographic a sense of injustice. And you can say whatever you want, but people have a strong feeling about this, so obviously this will continue to be used/seen as a prime example of injustice.
What kind of a pie is that? If it's cherry or apple, I'm game. If it's anything else, I'll have to think about it.
Quote:
Dr. Valerie Rao testified that Zimmerman was struck as few as three times by Martin during the fight that night. She also asserted his head may have only been slammed on the concrete a single time.
During the defense's cross examination of Rao, Zimmerman attorney Mark O'Mara got Rao to concede that his client's injuries could have been caused by more than three impacts. She also indicated that abrasions on Martin's knuckles were consistent with him striking someone.
If is on top of me beating me, and/or banging my head into concrete, I'm not waiting for him to continue to beat me if I can do something about it. If you agree that Martin attacked Zimmerman, if you agree that Martin was on top of Zimmerman, then you have to acknowledge that Zimmerman legally shot Martin. Unless you are a complete moron. Doesn't mean he's a great guy... just means he shot in self-defense as allowable under the law.
And there's also this...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-beaten-prosecution-witnesses/story?id=19517236
Two witnesses called by the prosecution today described George Zimmerman as being on the losing end of a fight with Trayvon Martin in the moments before Zimmerman shot the Florida teenager.
However, an EMT who was on the scene immediately following the shooting testified that she treated Zimmerman for five minutes before releasing him into police care.
Zimmerman, 29, is facing second degree murder charges for shooting and killing Martin on Feb. 26, 2012. He maintains he shot Martin, 17, in self defense after his head was slammed several times against a concrete sidewalk.
John Good told the jury today that he yelled "stop" at both men shortly after realizing that what he at first assumed to be a dog attack was actually two men grappling on the ground.
Catch up on all the details from the George Zimmerman murder trial.
"I said cut it out. I'm calling 911 because it was getting serious," said Good.
Good testified that he saw what he believed to be Martin on top of Zimmerman.
"The color on top was dark and the color at bottom was…red," Good said referring to the men's clothing.
At another point he told the court that the person on the bottom had "lighter skin color."
Zimmerman is a white Hispanic who was wearing a red and black jacket that night. Martin, who was black, was wearing a dark sweatshirt.
"The person on the bottom, I could hear a 'Help,'" he said.
George Zimmerman Case in Pictures
Under cross examination by Zimmerman's lawyer, Good said he believes he saw Martin on top punching Zimmerman "MMA style," a reference to mixed martial arts.
"The person on top was ground and pounding the person on the bottom?"asked Zimmerman attorney Mark O'Mara.
"Correct," said Good
Good testified that he did not see Martin banging Zimmerman's head on the concrete.
His account was accompanied by a recording of Good's 911 call to police in which he is heard telling the dispatcher that he heard a gunshot.
"I'm pretty sure the guy is dead out there. Holy sh**. .. There's a black guy down and he's been shot. It looks like he is dead," Good said.
Jonathan Manalo, who also lived near the shooting scene, testified today that Zimmerman told him just moments after Martin was killed to call his wife and say "Just tell her I shot someone."
Manalo did not see the confrontation between Zimmerman and the unarmed teenager, but walked outside of his home with a flashlight moments after hearing a gunshot.
He said Zimmerman looked like he had "got his butt beat," but was "speaking clearly."
Manalo took photos of Zimmerman's bloody nose, the back of his bloody head, Martin's body lying face down in the grass and a flashlight on the ground.
He says Zimmerman told him as he approached, "This guy was beating me up. I was defending myself and I shot him."
Stacy Livingston, an EMT who arrived on the scene, said she treated Zimmerman -- who was complaining of dizziness -- for five minutes before releasing him into police custody.
In addition, Police Officer Tim Smith told the court he took Zimmerman into custody on the night of the shooting and that the back of Zimmerman's jacket was wet and had bits of grass on it, and the back of his pants appeared wet. It had been raining that night and the ground was wet.
Again, you don't have to wait until injuries are "life-threatening" before using deadly force if you are being attacked. Even the notion of this is laughably stupid.
So you can cherry-pick one comment made by the medical examiner who was dealing in "maybe's" and "could have's" all you want... but the jury considered the totality of the evidence, and most fair-minded people do the same. At least 3 blows, lmao.
Again, anyone who says Zimmerman "approached" Martin is being speculative, btw, and really is immaterial as to the legality of using lethal force.
What a shocker, dipshit here conveniently left out this testimony:
testimony on Wednesday by Ms. Surdyka and another neighbor, Jeannee Manalo.
Ms. Manalo said she thought Zimmerman was astride Trayvon during a violent struggle. But she also said it was too dark to see exactly what was going on, and she made the judgment about who was the aggressor by looking at photos of Zimmerman and Trayvon afterward. She said she still believed she saw Zimmerman “hitting down” on a prone Trayvon.
Surdyka testifed she heard from her second-floor window two loud voices, including an “aggressive voice” and a voice that belonged to “a boy.”
“I felt like it was the boy’s voice,” Jayne Surdyka told jurors about the deadly scene that unfolded on a rainy February night last year in her Sanford, Fla., neighborhood.
If your going to pull testimony out of your ass, at least include all of it, not just that which you want to use.
I'm also going to tell you for the last time, no one but njm stated he approached Martin, so stop tryiung to use that as some angle. That is a weak attempt at parsing what has been said
The fellow who tried to kill Zimmerman yesterday is the same fellow who alleged "road rage" in September of last year. This whacko stalker's name is Matt Apperson - a fairly unhinged guy.
One man in the incident had been punched. It was Zimmerman. One had knuckles that were busted up. That was Martin.
But yeah, some woman who admits she doesn't really know what she saw think that Zimmerman was the one beating on Martin. You've got me.
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Also, here are the jury instructions that specifically reference stand your ground. I'm out. - ( New Window )
Whoops!
[quote]That matched the assessment of legal experts who earlier Monday were describing the verdict on Saturday as the result of successful, garden-variety self-defense arguments that could sway a jury in any state.
Though these observers said Florida's expanded self-defense law, which says citizens can "stand their ground" rather than retreat in the face of a deadly threat has emboldened citizens to take unnecessary risks and led to an increase in homicides, they detected little impact on the Zimmerman case.
[quote] Link - ( New Window )
At least you've stopped pretending it was irrelevant when it was clearly in the instructions. I'm not pretending he got off and should have been convicted. The law is the law. It was applied correctly. With stand your ground, it was nearly impossible to convict that dumbfuck.
But the fucking tragic reality is that the law (especially when it leaves room for standing your ground) allows for a numbnuts wannabe cop with a gun to watch the neighborhood -> follow a kid who wasn't doing anything -> chase a kid who wasn't doing anything leading to an altercation -> Then numbnuts is losing a fistfight and kills the kid who wasn't doing anything. And this fuckface, numbnuts wannabe asshole who goes on to show what a non-model citizen fuckup he really is can claim self defense when the reality is that if he'd just have stayed home that night, none of this shit would have happened and the kid would still be alive. If he had just not assumed the black kid walking in the neighborhood was a criminal the kid would be alive. If he had just let the cops follow up on it as directed by 911 the kid would still be alive.
But, I'm glad you feel the need to defend numbnuts GZ. He's terrific.
I think it has to do with Zimmerman's tiny but extremely vocal group of defenders.
One man in the incident had been punched. It was Zimmerman. One had knuckles that were busted up. That was Martin.
But yeah, some woman who admits she doesn't really know what she saw think that Zimmerman was the one beating on Martin. You've got me.
So from the fact that Zimmerman got punched, and Martin had scrapes on his hand we can throw out any kind of theory that Zimmerman initiated this? That those scrapes are proof positive that Martin started this? Never seen a fight where one idiot decides to shove someone and gets clocked? Never seen a fight where one guy takes a swing and misses and then gets his ass handed to him? Must be nice to live in such a proof positive world where scrapes on a knuckle is all you need
See the ONLY one who has had a say in what actually happened at the start was the guy fighting not to go to jail.
Ok...come on, you can definitely defend the law and the outcome of the case without having to be so obtuse that you can't see Zimmerman for what he is, a total jackass cop-wannabe, who put himself into a shitty situation (even when he was advised not to follow by a police dispatcher) that eventually led to the altercation that resulted in him having to kill Martin.
Not sure if you're just bored on Monday and choose to be extra argumentative or if you seriously believe that Zimmerman didn't put himself into a shitty situation by his own action that night that required him to defend himself.
Because he was chasing him? Why the fuck is he allowed to do that? Zimmerman started all this shit. Martin was trying to go home.
Really? So a police dispatcher's advice is just that of a $10 an hour nobody?
It's just another dumb fucking thing that GZ did that led to Martin being dead.
And yet, somehow, with more than enough time to get home from the time Zimmerman lost sight of him, he didn't actually go home. That's odd. Wonder why that was??
Following someone is against the law - yes or no? Simple question, simple answer.
Larger man? Zimmerman outweighed him by 27 lbs. So the guy who has an actual gun does not want to start a fight with someone who may have one? OK
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As if some fucking phone operator making ten bucks an hour is the voice of God or something.
Really? So a police dispatcher's advice is just that of a $10 an hour nobody?
Definitely a head scratching comment. Much better that a wanna be vigilanti on meds take matters into his own hands instead of listening. I mean what could actually happen, someone getting killed?
What led to Martin being dead was jumping a guy he didn't know was armed.
Which, by the way, is something else the people who latch on to "crazy man with a gun stalking him!!1!" tend to gloss over. Either Martin got into a fistfight with an armed man, which is insanely stupid, or he didn't know Zimmerman was armed and thus the the narrative is incorrect.
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Because he was chasing him? Why the fuck is he allowed to do that? Zimmerman started all this shit. Martin was trying to go home.
And yet, somehow, with more than enough time to get home from the time Zimmerman lost sight of him, he didn't actually go home. That's odd. Wonder why that was??
Following someone is against the law - yes or no? Simple question, simple answer.
I already said it's not illegal and the case was decided correctly based on the facts. Don't be obtuse.
The point is that George Zimmerman is a gaping asshole who, like all of us, deserved defense in a court of law but not on a message board, which makes your dedication to defending him kinda weird.
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at a larger man who may or may not be armed for no apparent reason, no. That is indeed a new one for me.
Larger man? Zimmerman outweighed him by 27 lbs. So the guy who has an actual gun does not want to start a fight with someone who may have one? OK
He was several inches shorter, and at night, in the dark, I'm guessing it may have been difficult to gauge the build of someone wearing a big sweatshirt. And, no, he doesn't want to start a fight. Are you being deliberately obtuse? Why the hell is he going to start a fight instead of drawing his weapon? That makes absolutely no sense.
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It's just another dumb fucking thing that GZ did that led to Martin being dead.
What led to Martin being dead was jumping a guy he didn't know was armed.
Which, by the way, is something else the people who latch on to "crazy man with a gun stalking him!!1!" tend to gloss over. Either Martin got into a fistfight with an armed man, which is insanely stupid, or he didn't know Zimmerman was armed and thus the the narrative is incorrect.
LOL. Yeah, Martin is the stupid one who fucked up. You're a lost cause.
Want to talk Manalo?
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman/os-george-zimmerman-trial-day-13-20130625-story.html
If jurors wanted clarity from them, they did not get it.
By the time they stepped down from the witness stand, both had been damaged.
The first was Jayne Surdyka, a former Olympic-caliber marathoner. Just minutes before the shooting, she heard someone make two desperate cries for help — the second she described as a "yelp."
She is convinced, she said, that the second voice was Trayvon's.
"Someone sounded very angry, very agitated," she said. The other person spoke with "a lighter, softer, higher-pitched voice."
She also reported seeing two figures on the ground fighting or wrestling.
But her account does not mesh with other evidence on three key points.
She testified that Trayvon was on the bottom, facedown when Zimmerman shot him. But Trayvon was shot at near-point-blank range in the chest — not the back.
Surdyka said she heard three gunshots. There was one.
She also got their clothing confused, saying the figure wearing black clothing survived, and she saw him stand up and walk around after the shooting.
Trayvon was wearing a charcoal-colored hoodie, Zimmerman a red jacket.
The second neighbor, Jeannee Manalo, also had credibility problems. She testified that she heard "a howling sound," looked out a glass door and saw two figures on the ground fighting.
The one on top was moving his hands "like he's hitting him," she said.
"That's when my husband told me to sit down and mind my own business," she said.
A few seconds later, she heard a shot, she said.
When she was interviewed immediately after the shooting, she told police she could not tell who was on top, but a few weeks later, after seeing photos of Trayvon on television, she told investigators that she was convinced it was Zimmerman because he is bigger.
On Wednesday, that was her testimony again until defense attorney Mark O'Mara pointed out that the photos of Trayvon on which she had relied showed him at about age 10 to 12.
"You're not sure as you sit here today who was where in the altercation?" O'Mara asked.
"No," she answered.
Only John Good had a vantage point where he could even tell who was who, and if memory serves his apartment was the closest to the altercation. The "witnesses" you are citing had contrary accounts of what happened, and contrary accounts as to the physical evidence in the case. John Good's account he gave to police matched the evidence, matched Zimmerman's story he also gave to police, without collaboration, and matched the evidence.
Dude, I have no desire to sit here and re-hash this case. The verdict was made, it was the correct verdict, and every point you have made is irrelevant or refuted.
You clearly don't have an understanding of this case, self-defense laws, or the ability to use basic logic.
I'm done, you can have the last word if you want. I'm no Zimmerman supporter, but the main point in this case is you can be an asshole and still have the right to defend yourself when attacked, and you don't have the right to attack someone because they are an asshole.
LOL. Yeah, Martin is the stupid one who fucked up. You're a lost cause.
Seeing as how he's dead because he jumped a guy who turned out to have a gun rather than just going home....yeah, I'd say there were bad decisions made by both parties.
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In comment 12281679 Greg from LI said:
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at a larger man who may or may not be armed for no apparent reason, no. That is indeed a new one for me.
Larger man? Zimmerman outweighed him by 27 lbs. So the guy who has an actual gun does not want to start a fight with someone who may have one? OK
He was several inches shorter, and at night, in the dark, I'm guessing it may have been difficult to gauge the build of someone wearing a big sweatshirt. And, no, he doesn't want to start a fight. Are you being deliberately obtuse? Why the hell is he going to start a fight instead of drawing his weapon? That makes absolutely no sense.
How do you know he didn't want to start something? Every action he took that night appeared that he wanted to start something, be it a questioning Martin, or a confrontation. And if he did walk up to him with his gun drawn, that right there is a criminal act. That gun emboldened him to act the way he did. Every arrest he has had since that trial involved a physical act or threat with a gun by Martin shows where this guys head is at with regards to guns and his bravery
On September 9, 2013, in Lake Mary, police responded to a 911 call by Zimmerman's estranged wife, who reported that Zimmerman had threatened her and her father with a gun and had punched her father in the face. Zimmerman was briefly detained and questioned by police.[32] No gun was found at the scene. Police took a broken iPad from the scene for examination of a video recording of the incident to determine whether to press charges against either Zimmerman or his wife.[33] His wife declined to press charges, later expressing regret about her decision.[34] After determining that the iPad video could not be recovered, the Lake Mary police department announced they would not be pressing charges against Zimmerman, his wife, or her father.[35]
On November 18, 2013, Zimmerman's girlfriend called the police alleging that after she had asked Zimmerman to leave her home, he had pointed a shotgun at her and begun breaking her belongings.[36] The police reported that Zimmerman had barricaded himself inside the apartment before they had made their way inside and arrested him.[37] He was charged with aggravated assault with a weapon – a felony – as well as domestic violence battery and criminal mischief.[38][39] On December 6, Zimmerman's girlfriend asked that the charges against Zimmerman be dropped and that the restraining order barring him from seeing her be lifted, after which prosecutors said that they would no longer be pursuing a case against him.[40][41]
On Tuesday September 9, 2014, George Zimmerman was named by police in a road rage incident where he reportedly threatened and followed another driver.[42] Zimmerman reportedly responded aggressively when he noticed another driver pointing at him. According to the other driver Zimmerman said "Do you know who I am?" before saying, "I'll (expletive) kill you." Zimmerman allegedly followed the other driver to a parking lot while the driver called 911, but he fled before the police arrived.[43] The other driver declined to press charges.
Todays incident involves the same guy he threatened during his last road rage incident. He is constantly looking for fights
If I am not mistaken, he is in police custody right now.
Want to talk Manalo?
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman/os-george-zimmerman-trial-day-13-20130625-story.html
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Early in the day, they called two neighbor eyewitnesses who heard and saw part of the confrontation between Trayvon and Zimmerman the night of the shooting.
If jurors wanted clarity from them, they did not get it.
By the time they stepped down from the witness stand, both had been damaged.
The first was Jayne Surdyka, a former Olympic-caliber marathoner. Just minutes before the shooting, she heard someone make two desperate cries for help — the second she described as a "yelp."
She is convinced, she said, that the second voice was Trayvon's.
"Someone sounded very angry, very agitated," she said. The other person spoke with "a lighter, softer, higher-pitched voice."
She also reported seeing two figures on the ground fighting or wrestling.
But her account does not mesh with other evidence on three key points.
She testified that Trayvon was on the bottom, facedown when Zimmerman shot him. But Trayvon was shot at near-point-blank range in the chest — not the back.
Surdyka said she heard three gunshots. There was one.
She also got their clothing confused, saying the figure wearing black clothing survived, and she saw him stand up and walk around after the shooting.
Trayvon was wearing a charcoal-colored hoodie, Zimmerman a red jacket.
The second neighbor, Jeannee Manalo, also had credibility problems. She testified that she heard "a howling sound," looked out a glass door and saw two figures on the ground fighting.
The one on top was moving his hands "like he's hitting him," she said.
"That's when my husband told me to sit down and mind my own business," she said.
A few seconds later, she heard a shot, she said.
When she was interviewed immediately after the shooting, she told police she could not tell who was on top, but a few weeks later, after seeing photos of Trayvon on television, she told investigators that she was convinced it was Zimmerman because he is bigger.
On Wednesday, that was her testimony again until defense attorney Mark O'Mara pointed out that the photos of Trayvon on which she had relied showed him at about age 10 to 12.
"You're not sure as you sit here today who was where in the altercation?" O'Mara asked.
"No," she answered.
Only John Good had a vantage point where he could even tell who was who, and if memory serves his apartment was the closest to the altercation. The "witnesses" you are citing had contrary accounts of what happened, and contrary accounts as to the physical evidence in the case. John Good's account he gave to police matched the evidence, matched Zimmerman's story he also gave to police, without collaboration, and matched the evidence.
Dude, I have no desire to sit here and re-hash this case. The verdict was made, it was the correct verdict, and every point you have made is irrelevant or refuted.
You clearly don't have an understanding of this case, self-defense laws, or the ability to use basic logic.
I'm done, you can have the last word if you want. I'm no Zimmerman supporter, but the main point in this case is you can be an asshole and still have the right to defend yourself when attacked, and you don't have the right to attack someone because they are an asshole.
You do realize that Good testified he could not confirm the man on top (who he says appeared to be Martin) hit Zimmerman, or pound his head into the concrete correct? Trhat he admitted that in trial. Also he claimed that the only way he could tell who was who was by the color of their clothes and what he thought was lighter skin color with regards to the guy on the bottom. He said this even though he could not say if the guys shirt was white or red. How can you not tell the difference between white and red, but you can discern skin color even though you cant see if someone is getting punched?
If I am not mistaken, he is in police custody right now.
I don't know the particulars of that Road Rage incident, but it was Zimmerman who left the scene not this guy
And for what reason did he have to call those 10$ an hour nobodies at 911? What did Martin do to warrant that call, walk home?
His description of the clothing of both parties made his testimony particularly strong.
His testimony is yet the most reliable.
where are you getting all this info?
This guy has some weird fascination with Zimmerman and wants to kill him. Called him a baby killer.
You will get called a dipshit, though. So as long as you're cool with that...
"According to Cornell, the man told him that he and Zimmerman have had three disputes. This time, Zimmerman waved a gun and the man shot at him, according to Cornell.
Police arrived minutes after he called 911, Cornell said.
Police have not verified Cornell's account to CNN.
History of run-ins with the law
It is the latest headline-grabbing incident for Zimmerman since his acquittal in July 2013 on a murder charge in the death of Martin, a 17-year-old African-American.
Zimmerman fatally shot Martin on February 26, 2012.
On that day, Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch captain in Sanford, Florida, called 911 to report "a suspicious person" in the neighborhood.
The dispatcher asked him if he was following the person and Zimmerman replied that he was "trying to find out where he went."
He ignored the dispatcher's advice not to follow the person, and according to later accounts by Zimmerman, Martin jumped toward him and a fight ensued."
To this day, I can't see how some defend Zimmerman. How they instead of feeling bad for the kid who was running an errand, instead mocking his death because "he wasn't a saint". And that a zealot with a gun and an itchy finger initiated the whole incident by breaking his own neighborhood's rules about involvement, creating a situation where TM felt he needed to defend himself from the guy who was following him...And TM turned out to be right--he was being followed by a guy who would later kill him. He was right! Yet some blame this victim.
You will get called a dipshit, though. So as long as you're cool with that...
Awww Allstar is all upset because he was made to look a fool...Awww.
Hey Dickstain, Bake and I are actually friends. Both from the same upstate city. We are about as diverse in our thinking as it gets but we always have a rational discussion. Unlike you he has quite a bit ofknowledge on subjects and he can write a ratinal post.
"According to Cornell, the man told him that he and Zimmerman have had three disputes. This time, Zimmerman waved a gun and the man shot at him, according to Cornell.
Police arrived minutes after he called 911, Cornell said.
Police have not verified Cornell's account to CNN.
History of run-ins with the law
It is the latest headline-grabbing incident for Zimmerman since his acquittal in July 2013 on a murder charge in the death of Martin, a 17-year-old African-American.
Zimmerman fatally shot Martin on February 26, 2012.
On that day, Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch captain in Sanford, Florida, called 911 to report "a suspicious person" in the neighborhood.
The dispatcher asked him if he was following the person and Zimmerman replied that he was "trying to find out where he went."
He ignored the dispatcher's advice not to follow the person, and according to later accounts by Zimmerman, Martin jumped toward him and a fight ensued."
To this day, I can't see how some defend Zimmerman. How they instead of feeling bad for the kid who was running an errand, instead mocking his death because "he wasn't a saint". And that a zealot with a gun and an itchy finger initiated the whole incident by breaking his own neighborhood's rules about involvement, creating a situation where TM felt he needed to defend himself from the guy who was following him...And TM turned out to be right--he was being followed by a guy who would later kill him. He was right! Yet some blame this victim.
Ya get used to it after a while Randy.
I guess it depends on how you look at it. Legally, probably not as the law is written in Florida. However, when it comes to culpability, you can't just classify this as another person doing something stupid. Most stupid actions don't amount to a person putting themselves in a potential dangerous situation that should be reserved for the police. And this leading to the death of an innocent person gives an entire demographic a sense of injustice. And you can say whatever you want, but people have a strong feeling about this, so obviously this will continue to be used/seen as a prime example of injustice.