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Do you guys think the Patriots cheated when we beat them?

DanMetroMan : 5/12/2015 10:18 am
Given the fact the Pats apparently are prone to cheating... do you think the Giants overcame some sort of underhanded cheating when we beat their asses twice?
Not with deflated balls, at least.  
idol-mind : 5/12/2015 10:21 am : link
The Super Bowl uses different procedures than the regular season and playoffs when it comes to ball preparation.

Of course, the Giants did beat them in New England in 2011, too.
I'm not a Patriot basher  
Ross : 5/12/2015 10:25 am : link
But you have to believe that they have been doing things like this for a while. The organization is all about winning and gaining every competitive advantage to do so.

Also, the stats about low fumbles and fewer dropped balls in rain are not just coincidences. But we shall see if those stats reverse in this season or not.

So I think the answer to you question is Yes.
It makes you wonder...  
Chris684 : 5/12/2015 10:27 am : link
In a league where you have everything working against you in terms of sustained success, the Patriots are pretty much the only team that's been able to accomplish just that.

NYG, Green Bay, Baltimore, Pitt, Indy or any of the other more successful teams during this time period have all had their down years.

The Patriots have had sustained success since 2002. A period that is now bookended by 2 scandals. Spygate and Deflategate.

Are we to believe that there has not been a whole lot of cheating going on in between?
They sustain success because Belichick is the best coach maybe ever.  
Victor in CT : 5/12/2015 10:30 am : link
He adapts to new players, styles, rules, better than anyone ever has.

And he is RUTHLESS when it comes to player evaluation. They are never in cap trouble because he will cut ANYONE at anytime. He manages the cap better than anybody.
AFC East  
notoriousc : 5/12/2015 10:39 am : link
is also a huge advantage, easy 5-6 W's a yr
RE: They sustain success because Belichick is the best coach maybe ever.  
Hades07 : 5/12/2015 10:44 am : link
In comment 12282762 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
He adapts to new players, styles, rules,
RULES?! He don't need no Stinking RULES!

these stats have been posted before  
mfsd : 5/12/2015 10:53 am : link
and seem to indicate the Patriots have had an advantage ever since the start of 2007 with regard to their rate of fumbles per snap being so statistically low that it's unlikely it was simply bc they were luckier than every other team

So I'd say it's very likely the Giants have twice beaten a Patriots team in the Super Bowl that was doctoring balls to give Brady an advantage

Of course, it didn't help Welker catch what may have been a game sealing pass in SB 46. Oh well...
Link - ( New Window )
I think they cheated  
Spyder : 5/12/2015 11:17 am : link
during the regular season to get to both SB's. Once they got there though, no way for The Deflator to work his magic with Tommy Balls.
.  
Moondawg : 5/12/2015 11:18 am : link
Not sure, but this should be posted.

RE: I think they cheated  
Hades07 : 5/12/2015 11:23 am : link
In comment 12282875 Spyder said:
Quote:
during the regular season to get to both SB's. Once they got there though, no way for The Deflator to work his magic with Tommy Balls.
Forrest Brady "McNally says they was my magic balls. They could take me anywhere."
I don't think the Patriots ever cheated...  
bw in dc : 5/12/2015 11:50 am : link
I think Spygate was vastly overrated - see Jimmy Johnson's comments - and this PSI situation is even more insignificant.

Underneath all of this is the real issue - envy.

RE: .  
RC02XX : 5/12/2015 11:58 am : link
In comment 12282883 Moondawg said:
Quote:
Not sure, but this should be posted.



Dude...that is one ugly little toddler in that blue shirt.
I'd be willing to bet  
mrvax : 5/12/2015 12:07 pm : link
(not that anyone could collect) that there is a lot more cheating going on than what is already known.
that is like betting  
Hades07 : 5/12/2015 12:09 pm : link
that politicians can be bought. Nobody is taking the other side of that bet.
This...  
Shepherdsam : 5/12/2015 12:13 pm : link
Quote:
bw in dc : 11:50 am : link : reply
I think Spygate was vastly overrated - see Jimmy Johnson's comments - and this PSI situation is even more insignificant.

Underneath all of this is the real issue - envy.


...sums up my feelings perfectly.
Cheating  
Flash : 5/12/2015 12:18 pm : link
the Giants beat them so it's a mute point.
RE: I don't think the Patriots ever cheated...  
schabadoo : 5/12/2015 12:20 pm : link
In comment 12282947 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I think Spygate was vastly overrated - see Jimmy Johnson's comments - and this PSI situation is even more insignificant.

Underneath all of this is the real issue - envy.


Now, if you can say that with a straight face, that is a great skill to have.
as with politicians, everyone cheats  
fkap : 5/12/2015 12:22 pm : link
but as with politicians you have to step pretty far over the line and piss off the majority in order to have it be a scandal. On the surface, it is much ado about nothing, but it isn't just envy that is making this an issue. methinks this is just the excuse they're using to back the patriots off of a far more extensive issue. Politicians don't get ostracized because they pay for a hooker. they get shitballed because they've pissed off the party (and not just the opposing party). I'm guessing it's the same deal for the Pats.
RE: I don't think the Patriots ever cheated...  
therealmf : 5/12/2015 12:28 pm : link
In comment 12282947 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I think Spygate was vastly overrated - see Jimmy Johnson's comments - and this PSI situation is even more insignificant.

Underneath all of this is the real issue - envy.


Absolutely!

Who created a fuss when Atlanta and the Browns received penalties this off season for piping in crowd noise and texting the sidelines, respectively. No one cares cause the two teams are terrible.

RE: Cheating  
Hades07 : 5/12/2015 12:36 pm : link
In comment 12283015 Flash said:
Quote:
the Giants beat them so it's a mute point.
moot
RE: RE: I don't think the Patriots ever cheated...  
giantsblue1 : 5/12/2015 12:39 pm : link
In comment 12283036 therealmf said:
Quote:
In comment 12282947 bw in dc said:


Quote:


I think Spygate was vastly overrated - see Jimmy Johnson's comments - and this PSI situation is even more insignificant.

Underneath all of this is the real issue - envy.




Absolutely!

Who created a fuss when Atlanta and the Browns received penalties this off season for piping in crowd noise and texting the sidelines, respectively. No one cares cause the two teams are terrible.


No one cares because they accepted their faults and moved on.
Sounds like Brady  
TMS : 5/12/2015 12:47 pm : link
has been using under inflated balls for quite a while to make them easier to throw accurately. Similar to using a corked bat in baseball. Thats cheating according to the league. So yeah. This could cost him the hall of fame, like steroids use, if a big enough issue is made of it. Brady has been living a charmed life so far, now the nightmares begin.
RE: They sustain success because Belichick is the best coach maybe ever.  
nicky43 : 5/12/2015 12:58 pm : link
In comment 12282762 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
He adapts to new players, styles, rules, better than anyone ever has.

And he is RUTHLESS when it comes to player evaluation. They are never in cap trouble because he will cut ANYONE at anytime. He manages the cap better than anybody.


I disagree and not just because I believe TC and Lombardi are equally as good (which I do) but because all of the best coaches in the league have had down years. I don't think a good coach can ever make up for a serious lack of talent. I'm not suggesting the Patriots haven't had down years because they cheat though it may have helped a tiny bit. I just think you can't contribute it to coaching alone.

You've only cheated,  
Doomster : 5/12/2015 1:03 pm : link
if you have been caught....think other teams don't pull stunts like, adding crowd noise to the speaker system when the other team has the ball, or having the opponent's heated seats not seem to work on those cold December days, or possibly opening doors in a stadium during a fg kick, and seeing balls mysteriously drift left or right?

It's called an edge...it's an edge, until you are caught....it's probably done by other teams , one way or another...
Doomster...  
Hades07 : 5/12/2015 1:17 pm : link
...which is why when somebody is caught cheating, the punishment should far outweigh the crime. This minor infraction should cost coach and Quarterback a season and the Pats an entire draft. So other teams say, "Wow, not worth the risk for this minor edge." If the punishment fits the crime, then there is no reason not to do it because the risk reward is there with the small chance of getting caught.
Doomster  
fkap : 5/12/2015 1:22 pm : link
it becomes cheating when you push it too far, over and over. As you say, everyone shaves the edges a little. Make a habit of it, going too far, and the league starts gunning for you.

deflategate wasn't good for the league. I'll bet my last dollar that Pats were warned to back off, and didn't. It wasn't a minor thing (the actual infraction game) that got blown out of proportion. It was brewing and brewing, and the Pats didn't have the common sense to lay low, so the league had to blow the whistle. And I'll bet my second to last bottom dollar that it wasn't confined to deflated balls.
RE: I don't think the Patriots ever cheated...  
idol-mind : 5/12/2015 1:50 pm : link
In comment 12282947 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I think Spygate was vastly overrated - see Jimmy Johnson's comments - and this PSI situation is even more insignificant.

Underneath all of this is the real issue - envy.


So...the NFL front office is envious of the Patriots for some reason?

I'm quite doubting that the NFL is looking for excuses to have the 2015 season open with Jimmy Garoppolo taking snaps for the Patriots.
Every team tries to find advantages...  
Dunedin81 : 5/12/2015 1:54 pm : link
maybe some teams are content to stick with legal advantages but I wouldn't put money on it. The Patriots are successful year in and year out and have been busted for cheating in the past, that's why they're under greater scrutiny. And if you do cheat fine, but be prepared to be punished for doing it.
A better question might be...  
Milton : 5/12/2015 3:13 pm : link
Do you think the Giants cheated when we beat the Patriots?

It's not like the Patriots are the only team that looks through every nook and cranny in search of a competitive edge, they're just one of the teams that's been caught at it a couple of times. Others have been caught illegally skirting the salary cap and then there are all the players around the league who are on steroids (can you imagine if they were held to the standard of "more probable than not"?--half the league would be suspended!).

Take for example in 2007 when the Patriots were found guilty of videotaping the opposing teams signals during a game against them. The Giants aren't that stupid. The Giants send people to the games of teams they will be playing later in the season and they sit in the stands with an audiotape and describe the signals over audio, because technically speaking, it's okay by the NFL if you audio record signals, you just can't videotape them. See, the Giants are much smarter when it comes to "cheating" than the Patriots!
RE: A better question might be...  
Hades07 : 5/12/2015 3:21 pm : link
In comment 12283390 Milton said:
Quote:
Do you think the Giants cheated when we beat the Patriots?

It's not like the Patriots are the only team that looks through every nook and cranny in search of a competitive edge, they're just one of the teams that's been caught at it a couple of times. Others have been caught illegally skirting the salary cap and then there are all the players around the league who are on steroids (can you imagine if they were held to the standard of "more probable than not"?--half the league would be suspended!).

Take for example in 2007 when the Patriots were found guilty of videotaping the opposing teams signals during a game against them. The Giants aren't that stupid. The Giants send people to the games of teams they will be playing later in the season and they sit in the stands with an audiotape and describe the signals over audio, because technically speaking, it's okay by the NFL if you audio record signals, you just can't videotape them. See, the Giants are much smarter when it comes to "cheating" than the Patriots!
If audiotaping them is legal and videotaping is illegal, how are the Giants better at cheating when they followed the rules in your scenario? If you think the rule is dumb, fight to change the rule, don't break the rule. If audiotaping is just as good as videotaping and constitutes the same level of advantage, why then would a team videotape.
Nicky  
RollBlue : 5/12/2015 3:23 pm : link
TC, Like BB, is HEAVILY involved in the personnel decisions. if you watched finding Giants and the draft a few weeks ago, you'd know TC in right in the mix personnel decision wise. Some people want to act like Reese is on an island when making personnel decisions - it's very much a group effort. I could tell TC was very pleased with Flowers, was just glowing about Collins and Odi. If one or more of these guys don't work out, it's not all on Reese.
Do you to traffic court and say,  
Hades07 : 5/12/2015 3:24 pm : link
Why did you give me a ticket for going 65 in a school zone but you didn't give this guy a ticket for going 65 on the highway? Or do you realize that the difference is simple as one is within the rule and the other is not?
Probably  
NYerInMA : 5/12/2015 3:27 pm : link
Makes our wins over them even sweeter!
Yes, especially on the ball that Chase Blackburn picked off.  
Victor in CT : 5/12/2015 3:30 pm : link
:-)
RE: RE: I don't think the Patriots ever cheated...  
bw in dc : 5/12/2015 3:33 pm : link
In comment 12283195 idol-mind said:
Quote:
In comment 12282947 bw in dc said:


Quote:


I think Spygate was vastly overrated - see Jimmy Johnson's comments - and this PSI situation is even more insignificant.

Underneath all of this is the real issue - envy.




So...the NFL front office is envious of the Patriots for some reason?

I'm quite doubting that the NFL is looking for excuses to have the 2015 season open with Jimmy Garoppolo taking snaps for the Patriots.


No, there are likely a majority of the owners who are envious of Kraft and the Patriots. So they wouldn't mind bringing them down a notch or two or three. And in case you didn't know, Goodell works for the owners. He is hugely influenced by their wants and needs...
RE: RE: A better question might be...  
Milton : 5/12/2015 3:33 pm : link
In comment 12283406 Hades07 said:
Quote:
If audiotaping them is legal and videotaping is illegal, how are the Giants better at cheating when they followed the rules in your scenario?
That's why I put cheating in quotes, because technically it's not a violation, but it accomplishes the same purpose, which is the stealing of your opponent's signals to gain a competitive advantage.

Quote:
If audiotaping is just as good as videotaping and constitutes the same level of advantage, why then would a team videotape.
Because Belichick's purpose in videotaping the signals so blatantly and out in the open wasn't to steal signals, it was to force his opponent to practice disguising their signals. If they know their signals are being recorded (which they did, because opposing coaches used to make faces for the camera) than they know they have to disguise them. And Belichick's thinking was that the more time they spend practicing disguised signals the less time they have to practice actual football.
RE: RE: RE: A better question might be...  
Hades07 : 5/12/2015 3:55 pm : link
In comment 12283436 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 12283406 Hades07 said:


Quote:


If audiotaping them is legal and videotaping is illegal, how are the Giants better at cheating when they followed the rules in your scenario?

That's why I put cheating in quotes, because technically it's not a violation, but it accomplishes the same purpose, which is the stealing of your opponent's signals to gain a competitive advantage.



Quote:


If audiotaping is just as good as videotaping and constitutes the same level of advantage, why then would a team videotape.

Because Belichick's purpose in videotaping the signals so blatantly and out in the open wasn't to steal signals, it was to force his opponent to practice disguising their signals. If they know their signals are being recorded (which they did, because opposing coaches used to make faces for the camera) than they know they have to disguise them. And Belichick's thinking was that the more time they spend practicing disguised signals the less time they have to practice actual football.
Does change that one is against the rules and the other is not. You can't be cheating, or "cheating" or even (cheating) if you are following the rules. Fairly basic.

If you don't like a rule, work to change it, don't break it.
or maybe the Giants used agents  
fkap : 5/12/2015 4:37 pm : link
who knew how to video on the sly, and then kept it under wraps in house instead of making it obvious to the world.
Would you say the Patriots cheat or just get in trouble for  
wgenesis123 : 5/12/2015 6:25 pm : link
pushing the envelope to far on the rules? I think they push the envelope on the rules and sometimes go to far.
What was the SB game in which  
Steve Filipowicz : 5/12/2015 10:12 pm : link
Vince Wilfork took a deliberate dive , claiming that he was pulled down? The refs agreed and threw a flag thereby negating an important Giants gain
Eh, I'm sure they did on some level...  
bradshaw44 : 5/12/2015 10:26 pm : link
But I defer to Cartman on this issue. See South Park where Cartman explains what happens when the Pats don't cheat.


Cartman explains what happens when Pats don't cheat.., - ( New Window )
I think the Patriots cheat constantly  
Corey : 5/13/2015 8:38 am : link
I just don't think they always get caught. There is a 'win at all costs,' culture there.
I would think that they did  
SomeFan : 5/13/2015 9:50 am : link
screw around with the footballs in the SB.
they can't  
Hades07 : 5/13/2015 9:53 am : link
the NFL actually cares about those balls and controls them for the SB.
idont care,  
NYG4246 : 5/14/2015 1:14 am : link
if the referees didnt notice the difference in the footballs then it shouldnt be an issue. and if they knew before the game and still let it happen then its on the league. As for spygate, they filmed one more game then the rest of the league. another non-issue blown way out of proportion.

its not like theyre putting rolls on quarters in their gloves and spitting hot sauce in opponents eyes. i understand a rule is a rule but c'mon. enough with this stuff.
nothing more pathetic than the  
Shirk130 : 5/14/2015 5:42 am : link
everyone does it excuse. Patriots have been exposed as cheaters. Baby Bill has won a lot, but he obviously broke the rules time and again. In an even playing field he is just another good coach.
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