Tough to fit it all in the subject line, but the gist of what I'm saying is that Ross Tucker is hearing from NYG players that they are concerned that JPP will get lazy and lay it down once he hits that next big contract. Ross played 7 years in the NFL and spent some time in the NFCE with the Skins and Cowboys, so I'm sure he's got some good connections to our team. Plus, he and Bob Papa do 4 hours together on Sirius NFL Radio several mornings a week.
But anyhow, this should not come as a huge surprise to BBI, b/c many of us have speculated to as much in the past...i.e. maybe this is one reason he's playing this year on the franchise tag as opposed to Reese extending him.
I've embedded a clip from his podcast from last Thursday onto SoundCloud (posted below the threadstarter) so you can hear it for yourself.
As an aside, most of you BBI'ers would really the RT Football Podcast, which is free on iTunes, etc.
http://www.rosstucker.com/wp/podcasts/ross-tucker-football-podcast/
My favorite regular guests are Andrew Brandt (former agent/team executive slant) and Greg Cosell (NFL Films; great at breaking down players/schemes, etc.). Lots of good content and fodder for BBI discussion there, especially during the slow offseason.
Clip on JPP from Ross Tucker Football Podcast feat. Andrew Brandt (5-14-15) - (
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I'd go year to year with him, and franchise him for a couple years then let him walk.
I'm starting to think this is JPP's last season in blue. I hate losing this kind of player but I have to trust the Giants here. They rarely let a player walk too soon...
Whatever goes down, I will ride with the Giants here. It's a tough spot to be in. Having to fork over insane money for any player is scary let alone one that you might be just a little leery of. Even if it's the slightest feeling...it's scary.
So the Giants are holding the line in their negotiations, which they should do.....you can't overpay this guy, with the possibility of his health in question.....
If he signs the Tag, who knows when he will show up, and in what kind of shape....there is shape and there is football shape....
He could have another statistical year, choosing his time and place where he can put up some pretty good stats, but not be a force in the game...
So if he has the same season as last year, where he accumulated his stats against weaker teams, let QB's run by him for big gains, and was not the week to week defensive leader he had to be, would the Giants fork over 18M next year for that?
It's looking like we get one year out of JPP at 15M.....
If the Giants cave, they better cross their fingers for the length of the contract....
And never get any information again? Good plan.
it's not like he's a UDFA who has earned 2M spread out over 4 years.
In the past, the Giants always locked down the star DE. Be it Strahan, Tuck, Osi even Kiwi. They just don't let these guys get into their last year. YEt here we are with JPP...
What's the saying? Believe half of what you hear and none of what you read? Whatever the hell it is...believe what you see...and that's JPP in his final year getting the tag. It's apparent that this has reached near critical mass. If JPP has another big year that doesn't necessarily mean that the two get married and live happily ever after. The Giants know JPP can play. What's gonna change their mind one year from now? They will still be leery of dishing out the long term deal.
IN my view, if you loved JPP now you'd sign him already. Something is up..
I'd go year to year with him, and franchise him for a couple years then let him walk.
that would be bad football, wouldn't it? if they franchise him again next year it will be like 18M, that's 33M guaranteed in 2 years. they could have paid him 33M guaranteed for 5 years and cut him pain free after 2 if that's the approach they wanted to take.
If JPP didn't do squat in 2010 and slowly came on in 2011--then peaked in 2013-2014 everyone's perception of him would be different right now. Instead, we have a guy that played great down the stretch 2010 and played like a mad man in 2011...then slowed down but still produced 2012, bad year in 2013...then rebounds last season.
JPP has been a flat out better player than Strahan through their first 5 seasons yet by this time in Strahan's career, 1997, Strahan was locked down long term and fully entrenched as the face of the NYG defense.
UNless these rumors are true and the Giants simply know with certainty that JPP is a dog, the guy has been victimized by his own success, early on. He had a damn good season last year but it's dwarfed by his 2011 and overshadowed by 2013. Kinda weird...which leads me to believe something is up here.
It's a shame if true. Imagine being paid all that money to play a game you supposedly love, only to dog it and not put in the effort to be the best you can be. I KNOW that I never wanted to be beaten by the guy across from me whether in organized sports or a pickup game. Where's a guy's pride?!
What could JPP possibly be doing or saying that leads one to believe he's gonna dog it once he'd paid? He hasn't dogged it yet and if he dogs it after signing the deal he's gonna lose about half of his contract.
Who knows...
I've pointed these things out, tried to counter the "no-brainer" perspective on spending big moolah on JPP.
The potential for him losing his job for making shit up is a consequence. And who takes these things as gospel?
Looks like Banks has to call out Tucker again for this same crap.
Parcells or Belichick wouldn't stand for it, I doubt even the new Tom Coughlin would. Maybe Fewell did and that's going to change.
If I had to guess I'd say it's mostly a media creation with a shred of truth probably when he was coming back from injury.
the way he rushed back from his back injury - not even in a contract year or anything doesn't say lazy to me.
especially as it's being attributed by Ross Tucker - to cash - when JPP has probably already made more money than 99.9% of the population.
JPP works incredibly hard on the field. I don't recall him taking plays off even when he looked a bit heavy.
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at times in the past, and while it seems like he is working hard this off-season, he might be doing it just to get his big payday.
I'd go year to year with him, and franchise him for a couple years then let him walk.
that would be bad football, wouldn't it? if they franchise him again next year it will be like 18M, that's 33M guaranteed in 2 years. they could have paid him 33M guaranteed for 5 years and cut him pain free after 2 if that's the approach they wanted to take.
I don't think you can franchise and UFA, no? After this season won't he be unrestricted?
Wonder if he could've more specifically meant ex-players? Many of those guys are in media now- O'Hara, Toomer, Strahan, Diehl, etc. and probably run in same/similar circles as RT. Just throwing that out there...who knows.
they can franchise him again at a 20% increase over this year $15M tag amount.
So pay him $18M, that's $33M over two years.
It's possible, but I think it's a bad idea.
Like I've said before, the JPP Version 2011 was a market-rate All Pro DE. There's not been a sign of him since, just some strong moments here and there.
they can franchise him again at a 20% increase over this year $15M tag amount.
So pay him $18M, that's $33M over two years.
It's possible, but I think it's a bad idea.
I honestly did not know they could do that. Thanks, pjcas.
well the posts on her make him sound lazy. I wouldn't be surprised if anyone dogged it for a play or two. I just don't know the characterization is true.
especially the assigned motivation. JPP has earned after this year $33M. I don't see a long-term contract being the straw that makes him say F-it, I'm dogging it now, I got paid.
Sure, he has not duplicated his early success, that's not really debatable.
however, he's a top 10 DE. that too is not really debatable.
I'm not talking PFF or FO, or anywhere else besides what you see with your eyes.
And based on history this is likely "as bad as it will get" with JPP - not to mention the boost I think he'll get from Spags.
So to me it might not be a no-brainer to sign him, but I'd think long and hard about who you will be replacing him with.
if accurate, this may be a blessing for him to know what his peers think of him.
Now, if we are being totally objective here, Victor Cruz hasn't played like his 2011-12 version since he's been paid too. Extenuating circumstances? Yes. But he hasn't lived up to his contract either.
Antrel Rolle didn't live up to the last year of his contract. There are many examples.
Victor Cruz strikes me as that. OBJ strikes me as that. Not so much JPP.
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In fact, I have a raised eyebrow of any player on this team making that statement and taking them serious while checking their own stats while they are speaking with me if I am Tucker?
Wonder if he could've more specifically meant ex-players? Many of those guys are in media now- O'Hara, Toomer, Strahan, Diehl, etc. and probably run in same/similar circles as RT. Just throwing that out there...who knows.
So it could be some of the players that thought throwing big money at Eli would not be a smart move. Jealousy is a hell of a thing.
He aint gonna dog it this year or next year, he wants that 100 million dollar contract and in order for him to have any shot in hell at that he needs to kill it this season and next season. Unless he bites on the first huge contract offer from NYG that comes his way next year. But as of now he's playing his cards just fine, who cares about practice if he performs well on Sunday's
If JPP signed for what the team was rumored to be offering ($11-12M AAV) instead of the agent pushing for $16M+, I think we'd be more willing to sign off on it.
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Well, considering he got fat and lazy after a Super Bowl.. I can't fault anyone for assuming it would happen once he got paid.
JPP works incredibly hard on the field. I don't recall him taking plays off even when he looked a bit heavy.
Working hard on the field isn't even half the battle IMO. It's a 60 minute game. You have to work hard off the field so it pays off when you work hard on it.
There are plenty of players that put it all out their on the field/court but could have been so much more if they put that same effort into the gym/diet.
He was slowed down by a bad back, tried to play through it and then had surgery the following offseason. He wasnt himself again until around midseason of 2013 following his recovery.
He declared himself fully healthy right around the time they played Oakland, was all over the place, and then messed up his shoulder, which basically put him on the shelf, even though again he played through injury.
He constantly occupies multiple blockers, disrupts the run game and always seems to be around the ball.
I can see some concerns about his back more than I can he's a dog. When he's healthy he is an impact player.
Like I've said before, the JPP Version 2011 was a market-rate All Pro DE. There's not been a sign of him since, just some strong moments here and there.
NYG would love all their contracts to be incentive driven. This organization excels at dumpster diving. Hell they have made it an artform.
If JPP signed for what the team was rumored to be offering ($11-12M AAV) instead of the agent pushing for $16M+, I think we'd be more willing to sign off on it.
His market was never that as far as the Giants were concern. I remember those negotiations when Reese categorized him as a SLOT receiver but everyone knew coaches would look to use him more on the outside moving forward. Giants are thrifty. Every other day the Giants were leaking it out that his contract should reflect the going rate for slot receivers.
Victor Cruz strikes me as that. OBJ strikes me as that. Not so much JPP.
I kind of agree, but hate to read too much into snippets of their lives. I do find this type of stuff plausible, even though I don't put much weight into it.
I remember in 2012 he looked fat and everyone laughed at those who pointed it out. Then he had a pedestrian season and looked a bit slower.
Now much more did he deserve?
the list of players with AAV higher than him are:
Calvin
Dez
Demaryius
Mike Wallace
Vincent Jackson
Fitz
Maclin
Cobb
Marshall
Cruz
Mike Wallace was an overpay, hard to argue with the others (Maclin and Cobb signed this off-season), Dez and Demaryius are on the FT.
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In comment 12291072 arcarsenal said:
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Well, considering he got fat and lazy after a Super Bowl.. I can't fault anyone for assuming it would happen once he got paid.
JPP works incredibly hard on the field. I don't recall him taking plays off even when he looked a bit heavy.
Working hard on the field isn't even half the battle IMO. It's a 60 minute game. You have to work hard off the field so it pays off when you work hard on it.
There are plenty of players that put it all out their on the field/court but could have been so much more if they put that same effort into the gym/diet.
You're absolutely right. it's just that I know how he works on the field, while I don't know his diet or workouts so it'd be unwise for me to comment on it.
Don't believe half of what you see and none of what you hear. It's a lot like what my painter friend Donald said of JPP, "Stick a fork in his ass and turn him over, he's done."
But it isn't off point. The Giants have a real history of finding flaws in their own FAs during contract negotiations. Whether it is Steve Smith, Linval Joseph, Strahan, Osi, etc. Now with the rookie pay scale, securing a second contract with the Giants will be like unlocking a video game achievement.
1) JPP had a great season surrounded by solid veterans. He is now the veteran and if there is a question about commitment and effort once he is paid you can imagine why that question would be even bigger without big time vets to push him.
2) LT may have dogged it but JPP isn't even close to the impact player LT was, even if LT was dogging it. LT was a once in a life-time player and JPP is right now just a good DE with a very up and down career the last few years.
3) Cruz is one of those guys who to me is the victim of injury and circumstance. When at full strength Cruz was playing in a very poor offense (since last Super Bowl) and when offense started to play well he was injured. Contract may exceed performance but that may be circumstance and not effort and personal production related.
The one good thing here is that JPP is still young and perhaps has learned from previous mistakes but time will tell there.
I can see it fresh as the morning dew, many a play where he is lolli-gagging it to the next play, then standing with his hands on his hips, dis-interested btw plays ... you never saw Strahan do this, fought through double teams and cheap shots every play and still is 5x the player JPP thinks he is ...
If JPP is done i'd love to see the guy that isn't done.
Is that just a JPP thing or we going to hold highly paid offensive players to those same standards.
Yet at the same time only once has the defense around recent free agent Suh reached top ten status. That fact didn't cause you and others to downgrade his accomplishments or potential. If you are willing to overlook Suh's flaws then you should be willing to do the same for JPP
Link - ( New Window )
I think it's fair to be worried about his back and proceed with caution when negotiating, which appears to be the Giants current stance.
I don't see how you can make the case that he is lazy or a dog however. I also don't think you trade away impact players unless they are team cancers. You were ultimately right about Plaxico and Shockey, but I think you would be wrong to imply trading JPP here.
You win in the NFL with impact players, that's what JPP is. Think 2011 @ Dallas. Eli and JPP won that game pretty much on their own.
As for the offense, the offense has carried this team since 2009. From 2008-2012 they were top ten in points scored. Last year back up to 13th and I'd bet money they finish top ten this year.
The Giants have given up 23.4 points per game since they drafted JPP. Their average NFL rank in that category each year is 19th. If we're talking about paying a guy like he's a difference maker, I'd like to see a difference being made.
JPP is a large man that has five years of games under his belt. That's five years of injuries too. And there appears to be anecdotal evidence to question his work ethic...
That all adds up to one most likely conclusion: JPP, while talented, has likely given the NFL the best he's got to offer, and he'll not likely offer it again.
You can't apply the Reggie White type of standards to everyone.
You can't apply the Reggie White type of standards to everyone.
Yes I can, if we're going to pay him like he's Reggie White.
And then when they set their value on him - because 100% they're better with him - and he asks for more than their value - you have to ask yourself how much worse are they with his potential replacement.
you can throw all the stats out there you want, I think this year will be very enlightening. with Spags creativity and ideally improved talent from the past couple years I'm interested in seeing how JPP's play responds.
Why do you think that? Have they made that same decision about Eli?
While I think it's almost 100% certainty the Giants want Eli back the fact he's possibly going to hit FA/FT sheds some doubt.
Same with JPP, I think they might want him back, but at their price. So I don't know we can draw conclusions.
of course not, I wasn't making a straight comparison, just situationally. And I can almost guarantee someone out there is willing to pay more for both than the Giants are.
worst case it it would be nice to get an extra 3rd round comp pick if JPP signs elsewhere and the Giants don't offset it with another signing.
I agree that JPP is not worthy of highest paid defensive player or defensive end status based on the questions with his back.
On the other hand, JPP has proven that he is an impact player when healthy.
There is alot of area in between handing him whatever money he wants and trading him away.
My friend has met him in Hoboken a few times. Told my friend that the Giants outright "QUIT" the 2nd half of the Seattle game last year but not on TC. Didn't say anything about Fewell to him.
I would let JPP play it out, let him get his big money elsewhere and we get a 3rd round comp pick for losing him. We get to keep the tag.
I we tag him again (a big possibity though admittedly I am getting ahead of myself here...we see how he does).
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have the balls to name the players that said that
And never get any information again? Good plan.
Exactly.
He played every game last season. His worst season he played what 14 games? Injury prone? What does that make a guy like prince? He missed more games than jpp but we can wait to sign this guy long term.
If the money is right you re-sign jpp. You're in this business to win and jpp is a winning player. Again the money has to be right.
I am not worried JPP will tank after getting a big contract with guaranteed money. I think the Giants did the right thing by franchising him, and hopefully they didn't do it to buy time to negotiate a contract. His injury history and lack of production related to it are just too risky to know that he is the guy to pay big money to. In their current situation they can not do without him, so they franchised him. Now drafting OO and D Moore with another season, perhaps they can move on after 2015 and let him go in FA. 20 million for a second franchise tag season is a bitch to pay, and for them to give him the big money contract he would have to have a season like his second year in the league, staying healthy all year. They would have moved on from him this season if they had anyone they had confidence in to take his place. So to me its more about his injury history than him potentially slacking once receiving a big money deal.
His effort is uneven. I've seen him bust his ass for 3 plays and take two off.
Drives me nuts. He'd be in the top 3 league wide if he'd show up in shape AND give a great effort on every play.
In my mind he's a good player but far from great. And as inconsistent that he is, I think it's sad that we had to put a franchise tag on him and mostly because we don't have anything better in that key position. This is why I'm excited to see what Odigiddy can do.
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This is isn't a figment of the imagination, this has followed him since his second pro season. Anyone knowledgeable enough could sit and break down game video and see where effort isn't where it should be.
His effort is uneven. I've seen him bust his ass for 3 plays and take two off.
Drives me nuts. He'd be in the top 3 league wide if he'd show up in shape AND give a great effort on every play.
Agreed, and it's that very thing that prevents him from being the player the fans believe he is.
I've been vocal on this for a while but the good news is that imo Reese is playing this perfect.
JPP is one of the best 4-3 DE run defenders in the NFL.
not sure what games you're watching if you compare him to Osi. He may not be Strahan in terms of technique and consistency, but I've seen him do things Strahan didn't have the physical ability to do.
I think JPP's "problems" are instincts, he just doesn't have the best instincts to read plays properly - and he'll crash down the line inappropriately and usage. I'd move him around more.
I'm interesting in seeing how he plays this year. though this has the potential to be the least talent DL of his career unless Owa can get on the field early.
More than willing to accept new information where there is some, and I don't count eye-test as such. We've been through this before where the groupthink comes up with a certain perception of a guy and that sticks to him.
If someone wants to point me to some proof, I'm certainly openminded enough. I'm just not taking "well I've seen him take plays off" as gospel.
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Charles Woodson is going to the Hall of Fame and he's played on some terrible defenses. JJ Watt led the Texans to the 24th ranked scoring defense in 2013.
You can't apply the Reggie White type of standards to everyone.
Yes I can, if we're going to pay him like he's Reggie White.
By this logic, you wouldn't have extended Strahan in 2001.
Nothing would surprise me..Good point..I think..:)
As for taking the word of anyone here, you don't have to. The questions about his effort now appear to be coming from his teammates, if you believe the article. And if you don't believe the article, the fact that the front office hasn't seen fit to give him a contract already must give you pause.
As for taking the word of anyone here, you don't have to. The questions about his effort now appear to be coming from his teammates, if you believe the article. And if you don't believe the article, the fact that the front office hasn't seen fit to give him a contract already must give you pause.
Can't disagree all that much, but not having a contract could also arise from JPP's much inflated worth
Does anyone remember all the qb runs around his end last year?
But by the same token, does everyone remember the play he made on RGIII at the goal line last year?
The guy makes plays.....but he is not a force, week to week, on defense......he had a good statistical year by feasting on the weak end of the schedule....
We have no idea, what numbers he is asking......but he is not the kind of guy you sell the farm on on either....
If he doesn't take the Giant offer, he plays for 15M this year, and that will be it.....there is no way the Giants pay him 15M, and then franchise him again next year for 18M....If he plays under the tag this year, he will play cautiously, to avoid injury, and he will accumulate sacks, rather than create them...
is JPP worse than others, who knows and not saying that makes it right.
My contention with this article and line of thinking is the cash will be the reason. That premise i believe is silly. as I mentioned he's made almost $35M in his 6 years (after this year). I could buy that rationale if JPP were a UDFA or even 3rd/4th round pick who was destitute.
this doesn't make sense to me. how long does he think they'll keep him motivated with $15M checks+ on the line each year?
Totally entitled to share opinions.
Eye test vs metrics is always going to be a hot button.
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This is isn't a figment of the imagination, this has followed him since his second pro season. Anyone knowledgeable enough could sit and break down game video and see where effort isn't where it should be.
More than willing to accept new information where there is some, and I don't count eye-test as such. We've been through this before where the groupthink comes up with a certain perception of a guy and that sticks to him.
If someone wants to point me to some proof, I'm certainly openminded enough. I'm just not taking "well I've seen him take plays off" as gospel.
Thank you. I 'd like to see any shred of proof as well. I know the Giants and JPP not agreeing to a long term deal says something, but it doesn't say everything. JPP takes plays off now? Where is this stuff coming from? JPP is a top 3 DE in the NFL. All this talk of could be if he tried harder...I don't necessarily disagree with all the supposed negatives but I don't agree with them either.
I keep seeing JPP labeled here as lazy and not that great....name me 3 better 4-3 DEs in the NFL.
Again...someone name me three 4-3 DEs in all of football. I have asked this over and over and no one ever lists 1 let alone 3. Why is that?
Anyone?
So if I could guarantee you 3 "good" seasons and 1 meh season along with 1 DPOY caliber season, would you take that? I know I would. You aren't finding any better than that.
For one thing who is the player who has great stats against the great players? Who is the WR that went off against Revis? Strahan had probably half his career sacks against Jon Runyan, who counts that against him?
JPP had sacks against (and I'm assuming they were against the LT, but gauging responsibility doesn't always work this way):
1.5 vs Jered Veldheer 4th best LT per PFF in the NFC (Veldheer's 2nd worst game of the year)
2 vs Tryon Smith 3rd best LT per PFF in the NFC
1.5 vs Luke Joeckel (struggled)
2 vs Will Svitek (backup)
2.5 vs Trent Williams (one of the best)
1 vs Greg Robinson (rookie #2 overall pick)
2 vs Jason Peters (his only PFF negative pass blocking grade OF THE SEASON)
so of his 12.5 sacks 8 came against top tier left tackles.
So if I could guarantee you 3 "good" seasons and 1 meh season along with 1 DPOY caliber season, would you take that? I know I would. You aren't finding any better than that.
Why would I believe that we'd get anything approaching that?
It's a fine line between being careful and being too careful. Do you not want to spend elite money along the DL? We did it before with Strahan, Osi and Tuck--if we can get JPP signed to a pumped up Tuck type deal you'd have to consider it. Why is JPP more dangerous to sign that Tuck was? Tuck missed time in 06. A lot of time --more than JPP missed..
I guess it's the back injury but from all accounts he's fine now. I just hope that if they let this guy walk they know for damn sure he's a dog and not worth the money. Losing JPP would be a big blow.
As for plays off, who besides J.J. Watt and Frank Ferraro doesn't do that?
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that JPP over the next 5 seasons JPP would put up 3 more seasons just like 2014, 1 more like 2011 and 1 more like 2012 or even 2013...we'd be nuts to pass that up. And you'd be hard pressed to find 2 DEs that will better that kind of production.
So if I could guarantee you 3 "good" seasons and 1 meh season along with 1 DPOY caliber season, would you take that? I know I would. You aren't finding any better than that.
Why would I believe that we'd get anything approaching that?
BEcause he just did it!!!
You guys act like JPP isn't a plus player at DE. You also act like Tuck and Strahan never got beat to the edge. Strahan was a great player but he got beat and he got beat badly at times. WTF happened in those 1997 and 2003 playoff games? Strahan never missed a tackle? JPP isn't Strahan but Strahan wasn't JPP through 5 seasons...
Revisionist history and for whatever reason, a witch hunt against JPP's play. Fine tooth that shit all you want, the guy is a top THREE DE 4-3 DE right now. IF you are scared he won't play after getting paid that's fine, but his play on the field sure as fuck hasn't proven this theory. The guy has played very well more often than not and brilliantly at times. If he's lazy, it's not manifesting on the field.
His agent is reportedly seeking $16M AAV, which couches the debate entirely differently, imv.
His agent is reportedly seeking $16M AAV, which couches the debate entirely differently, imv.
13 mill plus some kind of injury protection clause sounds like a decent compromise, imo
His agent is reportedly seeking $16M AAV, which couches the debate entirely differently, imv.
I don't disagree on his worth, my only disagreements with this whole premise are:
1. I don't believe money will cause him to "dog it", if he dogs it now or takes plays off now, why would money make him dog it more? It's silly.
2. I believe he's (JPP) underrated on here a little, when you view things from the lens of replacing him. not saying $$$ per say, but on field production I don't think people give him enough credit because he had a HOF 2011
I understand the view through the lens of replacing him, but reality is I'd rather try to replace him and not make a costly 5-6 year mistake. There's an inherent gamble involved, one the team is being cautious about, which should tell us all something.
I'm not interested in paying for what a player has done. I'd rather get my money's worth during the life of the contract... Especially if the contract is big. We're talking about a cornerstone contract here... For that kind of money the player should be nearly beyond reproach, but:
- came back after Super Bowl win out of shape
- has had his fair share of injuries whether or not he's played through them
- has had a back surgery on a herniated disc
- team has been willing to put franchise tag on him rather than give him a new contract
- rumors of laziness are coming from his teammates
- the defense has been poor every year since 2010 despite his presence
That is too many red flags for a cornerstone contract type of player.
I understand the view through the lens of replacing him, but reality is I'd rather try to replace him and not make a costly 5-6 year mistake. There's an inherent gamble involved, one the team is being cautious about, which should tell us all something.
Then why franchise him instead of letting him go as a UFA? that would have freed up cap space and been a lot less risky.
at $15M per JPP is 2nd to JJ Watt is cap money and $$ for a 4-3DE.
think about it this way, if he plays on the tag that's probably half the guaranteed money they could have given him on a longer team deal.
I'm obviously not as well versed in the cap as some, but if JPP signed for 35M guaranteed, and the Giants front-loaded the guarantees, after three years he could be cut relatively pain free and 2015 is one of the three.
JJ Watt only got 21M guaranteed (though he had two years remaining on his deal when he signed), so I think $35M would get it done for JPP and not hamstring the team.
Something like 6 years 66M 35M guaranteed, with that $35M basically paid in years 1 - 3, so the final three years are just pro-rated bonus and mostly salary making him a painless cut.
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I think the leaked concerns reinforce some concerns he'll dog it once paid. It's been talked about since 2012, I find it hard to believe there's nothing at the root of it.
I understand the view through the lens of replacing him, but reality is I'd rather try to replace him and not make a costly 5-6 year mistake. There's an inherent gamble involved, one the team is being cautious about, which should tell us all something.
Then why franchise him instead of letting him go as a UFA? that would have freed up cap space and been a lot less risky.
at $15M per JPP is 2nd to JJ Watt is cap money and $$ for a 4-3DE.
think about it this way, if he plays on the tag that's probably half the guaranteed money they could have given him on a longer team deal.
I'm obviously not as well versed in the cap as some, but if JPP signed for 35M guaranteed, and the Giants front-loaded the guarantees, after three years he could be cut relatively pain free and 2015 is one of the three.
JJ Watt only got 21M guaranteed (though he had two years remaining on his deal when he signed), so I think $35M would get it done for JPP and not hamstring the team.
Something like 6 years 66M 35M guaranteed, with that $35M basically paid in years 1 - 3, so the final three years are just pro-rated bonus and mostly salary making him a painless cut.
I wasn't happy about the Tag, but can live with it given our cap this year..There weren't all that many enticing FAs for us this year, so we could afford the tag..
The Giants aren't exactly ushering JPP out the door.
I think it's a tool to use while negotiating a long-term contract.
There are so many cases of acrimony between players (which I don't get b/c it's a ton of money) and the teams when they tag someone and cannot come to agreement.
See Wes Welker for one.
When is the last Giants player to actually play a season on the FT?
not get tagged, but actually play out the year on it? Jumbo Elliott (I know he was tagged, not sure if he played on it) and that was like 25 years ago.
The Giants aren't exactly ushering JPP out the door.
I didn't say they weren't impressed at all, but clearly not enough to sign him to a longterm deal more to his liking.
But, for now they appear content to use the leverage tool that's available to them to continue to try and create the compromise.
Again, if the Giants felt great about JPP, why hasn't he been given the contract? Why risk angering a cornerstone player and potentially mess up his whole season?
Personally I think the franchise tag was a half measure, and like most half measures I don't expect it to go well. The smart money seems to be on JPP missing all or part of camp and the preseason.
DEs that can rush the passer and play the run are as rare as hen's teeth and the FO knows that.
They also have had several years to have gauged his talent, work ethic and dedication.
If they don't get it done, it will be because they find him lacking in one of the latter two.
They know the talent is there.
Again, injury concerns, more specifically about his back are valid. Clearly the Giants arent willing to give him a blank check, but when he is healthy he is arguably the best 2-way DE in the league.
Sounds to me like this article is intended to drive his price down.
Here are some random quotes from the past few years.
This is from Tuck in 2012.
"I think I said something to him about his hand placement and there he was by the end of practice, fixing it," defensive lineman Justin Tuck said. "I think we said something to him about his stance a month ago and he fixed it.
"He's not just trying to get by on his athletic ability. He's trying to go way beyond that."
After dealing with his injuries the previous 2 years. Fewell had this to say last August.
"That's the old JPP," Fewell said. "His attitude is good, his work ethic has been very good . . . He's having fun again in football."
This is from this current offseason.
But that doesn’t mean that Pierre-Paul will relax during this phase of offseason workouts. Just after midnight early Monday, the defensive end, who had 12.5 sacks in a resurgent 2014, stressed in an Instagram post that he is training and readying for 2015. He’s been training with Michael Alessi, a Florida-based trainer.
“Back to work tomorrow, I’m laughing right now,” he said, adding three smiley faces. “I’ve been WORKING! Tomorrow lets get it with @malessi2 Let’sGetBetter #90PowerCircle.”
Finally TC, also from this year.
“We are convinced that we want him back, without a doubt,” Coughlin said, via the New York Post. “There’s been a lot of different discussions. Hopefully, he’s going to remain a Giant. The goal is for him to be a Giant and play as a Giant forever and retire as a Giant. How that works out is another issue.”
I have seen every single snap the man has played as a professional and reviewed his play on the all 22. He is OK as a run defender but teams specifically use his lack of discipline against him over and over and over again.
Top players in the league don't get by on physical talent alone, and without the ability (or desire?) to learn the necessary nuances to become great JPP will always just be what he is. A player who will flash but lacks polish and consistency. You don't give those guys max long term contracts unless your name is Dan Snyder or you work for the Jets. The right move is to use the rookie contract to get what you can for your initial investment and then put a value on the total package. That's what Reese is doing, and the x factor in this is the franchise tag, which is dangled in front of JPP as his ticket to a huge payday.
It's the same thing they did with Nicks (without the tag)and that worked out amazingly. "Go ahead and do your thing and we have the checkbook right here". If a guy doesn't respond to that he is a dog. We'll see how JPP treats it.
I have seen every single snap the man has played as a professional and reviewed his play on the all 22. He is OK as a run defender but teams specifically use his lack of discipline against him over and over and over again.
Top players in the league don't get by on physical talent alone, and without the ability (or desire?) to learn the necessary nuances to become great JPP will always just be what he is. A player who will flash but lacks polish and consistency. You don't give those guys max long term contracts unless your name is Dan Snyder or you work for the Jets. The right move is to use the rookie contract to get what you can for your initial investment and then put a value on the total package. That's what Reese is doing, and the x factor in this is the franchise tag, which is dangled in front of JPP as his ticket to a huge payday.
It's the same thing they did with Nicks (without the tag)and that worked out amazingly. "Go ahead and do your thing and we have the checkbook right here". If a guy doesn't respond to that he is a dog. We'll see how JPP treats it.
Agreed, very on point. JPP does hustle downfield to make a lot of tackles on running plays 5-10 yards past the LOS...but how many times have we seen him rush too far upfield (assisted by a well-coached offensive tackle), leaving a gaping hole for a RB to exploit? Osi was guilty of this his whole career, which is why, despite being a top pass rusher, he was no Strahan
Don't get the Nicks comparison at all.
BR: 12th rated DE in the NFL
Ranaan article:
What Pierre-Paul is referring to is his play against the run. He's far and away Pro Football Focus' No. 1 4-3 defensive end against the run (+17.6). Opposing teams are averaging 4.02 yards when running over the left tackle, where Pierre-Paul is most often lined up. In comparison, they're averaging 5.06 yards up the middle and 4.30 yards at the right tackle.
Pierre-Paul's play against the run has been there all year.
Quote from Nunn
Bill Kostroun/Associated Press
Still, if you’re wondering how Pierre-Paul can be so good against the run despite not having the numbers to show for it, just look at last week’s game against the 49ers" target="_blank">San Francisco 49ers.
Per PFF, of running back Frank Gore’s 19 runs, 10 went to the right side of the formation, which is manned on defense by Mathias Kiwanuka. Gore ended up recording 74 of his 95 yards by running away from Pierre-Paul.
That’s why when looking at the final stat sheet, Pierre-Paul had one tackle.
I'm sure you're an expert, but I'll go with my eyes and the majority of the other experts out there.